Communicating with people of different faiths/no faith discussion/debate

[capricaabydos]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply it was forced on you in particular. I just know it has been forced on a lot of people I grew up with (i.e. one of my roommates).

Not saying faith schools are bad either, just that I'm glad I didn't go to one. In some cases, I have heard of parents sending their kids to private religious schools simply because they had good reputations for education.

For me, though, I had enough of it going to CCD...and my town was very religious anyways, so it's not like I escaped it at public school either.



Very true. I love learning about other religions. I recently had a comparative literature class that dealt with the Norse beliefs pretty heavily. Sure there aren't as many people who follow that belief system today, but I view them all as equal in a comparative religion point of view.



I agree with this. I would currently like to learn more about Islam, as it is a huge religion of the world, just not one that is as represented here in America. I'd like to actually learn about what it actually teaches and what is actually in the Koran, rather than just going on hearsay of other people.

You should get your self a muslim girlfriend I had a Muslim boyfriend once and even a Jewish one but he didn't work out I like the Muslim one better the way their woman are treated is not like we see on TV I think you gotta live it to understand it but after all I married a Mayan guy and I submerge myself in his culture to understand him better I even understand the language I can't write it but I like it we've been married 10 yrs and I gotta say Mayans have a greater understanding of the universe than most Latin cultures do but there's no better way to learn something than to actually practice it

[sramir2]

Sorry I'm late coming to this party religion/no religion is a very interesting topic to me, I believe in God but I have no denomination, but I like to have interesting converstions with people about it.

The people that have 'no faith' I want to ask a question:
Do you have any morals and/or ethics?
Do you just go around harming just for the fun of it?
Do you not respect other people's feelings/emotions?
Do you go around shouting your beliefs/no beleifs to everybody?
Do you respect other people?

The reason why I ask these questions is for a simple reason, in faith(in my opinion) isn't about towing the line, y'know having to go to church every Wednesday and Sunday, Reading the Bible fifteen times, and looking for help from 'High Above. Just be yourself, be nice to everybody, have morals/ethics, have good judgement, and don't push your ideas off on people who don't want to hear it(I'm talking about those people who rag on other people everyday about it) just be a good person.

What I don't understand from talking to my friends, I have Mulism, Jew, and Christian friends, is that they believe in the same God, he just has different names, every religion has a code almost right? the Christian/Jew Faith have the Ten Commandments, and the Buddist have the Eightfold Path and if you study and look at both carefully they are both saying the same thing, the Muslim faith doesn't have the exact Ten Commandments but they have passages that resemble the Ten Commandments. What I'm trying to say is that every religion, no matter what it is, has what I like to call 'the common sense rules' like don't go and kill people, be nice to people, so on and so forth. But every religion has different ways of getting there.

But like I said before ultra-religion or ultra-atheist closed-minded people are bad, and I don't care if you are Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan, etc., etc. It doesn't matter if you can't talk to people without slamming down other people religions and/or slamming down your own.

I'm Open-minded with everything mostly,(somethings like clowns and Yankees baseball, and Philadelphia Sport Fans I can't really stand), look at both sides of the argument, discuss both sides, and have good debate without trying to tear everybodies head off.

[Bareassedmunky]

Yes
No
Yes, I do
Only ones who shout theirs at me
Only the ones who show a lack of respect for me and other people


I believe morals are a function of evolution. In a society where murder is acceptable, then there is no trust and people cannot work together and the civilisation will collapse. In a society where murder is not acceptable allows people to work together, and the civilisation will flourish, they grow, and over time evolve, strengthening these natural morals.

This is why we feel guilty if we do something we consider to be immoral, it is an instinctive reaction as a result of the way we evolved. As a matter of a fact, without morals, we wouldn't have evolved to develop enough intelligence to ask the big questions.


Because moral behavior is in our nature, when the people coming up with the religions, they have common themes which result from a common morality. This is why stealing, murder etc. are in all religions, because they are what allow societies to function.


This is why atheists are moral, because we are human. Why should we go around harming people 'just for the fun of it'? Are you saying the only reason you don't go around harming people is because you fear what god will do to you?



Let me just take some time to explain why people are atheist, or at least why I am one, It might help you to understand the mentality a bit better. In a court of law, someone is innocent until proven guilty. It is the job of the prosecution to prove the person did it, rather than the job of the defendant to prove they didn't. Otherwise, if you were my boss, and I wanted your job, I could accuse you of stealing, you'd go to jail, and I could take you job. This is why I would have to prove you stole the money, simply saying you did isn't enough...All religious texts claim to be the word of god, I expect them to prove to me that they are. And why should I believe in the Bible and not the Qur’an - both of their claims to be the truth are equally valid.

[sramir2]

Bareassedmunky don't take me wrong, I agree with you, what I was trying to say is that these couple things are what make religion what they are with morals/ethics to people. I know what a athesist is I'm not disagreeing with any thing that you said, I was trying to explain to the regilious people out there, that people who don't believe in God or like what I am, I believe there is something but we don't know what it is. That they are moral and have ethics, just that you don't go to church doesn't make you a bad guy.

There's something I don't understand, for the Christian and Jewish faith out there a question if you don't mind:

Murder/Rape is bad in the bible right?(retorical i know stay with me please, I'm sarcastic be nature)
If so, why can Rapist and Murderers be repent? I understand if you accidentaly kill somebody like manslaugther, for example, getting into a fight with somebody and you hit them in the head and cause a clot and/or bleeding of the brain, that you should be able to repent if you don't the blame, say your sorry, do your time so on and on. I'm talking about if you purposely kill somebody like planning to kill somebody, doing the act and so on, then when you are founded out that you plead innocent, saying that you didn't and you know that you did. Then go to prison and repent, what makes them any better than an athesist who doesn't believe in God but is a good person with strong morals and ethics?

[SoulReaver]

not that I wanna take this offtopic, but :

Do you just go around harming just for the fun of it?

lack of morals doesn't necessarily mean that people will go around killing "just for the fun of it"
many people can and do have a very mechanistic approach to killing & will do it for perfectly logical reasons - eliminating competition, dispatching bothersome witnesses during a robbery, warfare (same thing, larger scale) when aimed at conquering resources etc.
contract killers are the perfect example of this "amorality"

[Coronach]

not that I wanna take this offtopic, but :lack of morals doesn't necessarily mean that people will go around killing "just for the fun of it"
many people can and do have a very mechanistic approach to killing & will do it for perfectly logical reasons - eliminating competition, dispatching bothersome witnesses during a robbery, warfare (same thing, larger scale) when aimed at conquering resources etc.
contract killers are the perfect example of this "amorality"

I know it seemed (at first) that Sramir was going into the "atheists don't have morals" argument, but I don't believe this to be the case, especially because he/she said it wasn't.

Like Bareassedmunky, I too agree morality is completely a product of evolution, but that's not really being debated here. In fact, I can't even tell what the topic is anymore

[Coronach]

You should get your self a muslim girlfriend I had a Muslim boyfriend once and even a Jewish one but he didn't work out I like the Muslim one better the way their woman are treated is not like we see on TV I think you gotta live it to understand it but after all I married a Mayan guy and I submerge myself in his culture to understand him better I even understand the language I can't write it but I like it we've been married 10 yrs and I gotta say Mayans have a greater understanding of the universe than most Latin cultures do but there's no better way to learn something than to actually practice it

Eh, I am not opposed to being with a religious person by default. I just don't think I want to learn a religion from someone who is an active member of the faith. I'd much rather learn it in a class setting, as it can help to reduce bias, especially if it's a professional in the field. Of course it won't reduce it completely, but it helps, .

I certainly won't ever practice a religion to learn it, as it would go against the fundamentals of what I personally believe. I mean, I wouldn't be opposed to trying Buddhism, but I'm sure it has its hidden flaws that I don't even know about.

No, I'd rather just learn about them...as it gives a more objective view of what many religions are actually about.

[SoulReaver]

I mean, I wouldn't be opposed to trying Buddhism, but I'm sure it has its hidden flaws that I don't even know about.

perhaps *some* people might consider it too pacifist (for those for whom that's a flaw of course)
there has yet to be a war waged in its name

[SoulReaver]

Like Bareassedmunky, I too agree morality is completely a product of evolution, but that's not really being debated here.

too bad not everyone evolved the same way eh ?

In fact, I can't even tell what the topic is anymore

hey the 1st word in title reads "communicating". at least everyone's ontopic where that part is concerned

[Bareassedmunky]

In fact, I can't even tell what the topic is anymore

That often happens in religious debates.

There's something I don't understand, for the Christian and Jewish faith out there a question if you don't mind:

Murder/Rape is bad in the bible right?(retorical i know stay with me please, I'm sarcastic be nature)
If so, why can Rapist and Murderers be repent? I understand if you accidentaly kill somebody like manslaugther, for example, getting into a fight with somebody and you hit them in the head and cause a clot and/or bleeding of the brain, that you should be able to repent if you don't the blame, say your sorry, do your time so on and on. I'm talking about if you purposely kill somebody like planning to kill somebody, doing the act and so on, then when you are founded out that you plead innocent, saying that you didn't and you know that you did. Then go to prison and repent, what makes them any better than an athesist who doesn't believe in God but is a good person with strong morals and ethics?

The christian answer is because 'Jesus died for our sins'. I've never gotten a straight answer to how that actually works though

[SoulReaver]

I reckon this is how it works :

basically he paid for our sins

so if you really do believe thisthen no matter what sins you committed you won't be punished (even if you don't repent. if you believe JC died for your sins then repentance is optional)
on the other hand if you don't believe this then you are going to hell even for the slightest infraction (for example that candy bar you stole at that convenience store back when you were 10 - unless you repent for these crimes - some1 correct me on this if I'm wrong - but since it's hard to keep track of every single one of them it's also somewhat difficult to repent for all of them -) this brings up another important thing to remember about christianity btw : good deeds are irrelevant, not all the good deeds in the world will ever "compensate" for even the slightest bad deed, so doing good is basically a waste of time as it won't spare you the fire & brimstone or even mitigate it
ultimately christianity is not about "good vs evil" (forget the stories about witches & paladins & what not) it's about belief vs non-belief. if you believe a man 2 millenia ago paid for your crimes, then you can go about breaking all the commandments if you wish, without remorse - of course you will be punished down here on earth, but what's that compared to the eternity of pure bliss that awaits you thereafter eh. on the other hand if you don't believe this, then you're going to hell no matter how many good deeds you've done or how few bad deeds you've committed (as long as the last figure ain't 0 but as I've said we've all sinned at some point haven't we)



the consequences of this are obvious :

- belief in god is not enough, good deeds are also not enough, even both are not enough : you must also believe in Jesus (that he's the son of god and that he paid for your crimes). else you better be prepared for a more than warm welcome once you pass away
in a way the "narrow" path to heaven is possibly the broadest : you don't need to be good or to avoid being evil - all you gotta do is (really really) believe & you're saved. don't waste your time on charity & what not, it won't avail you

- Torquemada is in heaven & Gandhi is in hell

[Bareassedmunky]

I understand the words 'jesus died for our sins'. I understand the consequences of that - our souls are saved. What I don't get is the relationship between the event and the consiquences.

If you are sick, you take medicin. This medicin introduces chemicals which affect the way our bodies work, which cures the disease. There is a clear cause and effect relationship.

In the case of jesus dying - He dies...our souls are safe. The bit in the middle which explains the two doesn't exist.

Think of it like this - a computer works using three steps - input, process and output. Jesus dying for our sins is like plugging your keyboard straight into your monitor without the computer - nothing happens becasue a step has been left out.

[SoulReaver]

a non-sequitur ? not if they go by "it works this way 'cause that's how God wills it, like it or not" :/
a bit like the part with the apple perhaps

though tbh there used to be (are ?) some cultures where law requires that someone else pay for a wrongdoing if the culprit somehow manages to avoid retribution. "blood for blood"
similarly in some of today's western societies for example children can "inherit" their paren'ts debts, scandalous as this may seem. I don't know if that applies to the US, though

[Womble]

Eh, I am not opposed to being with a religious person by default. I just don't think I want to learn a religion from someone who is an active member of the faith. I'd much rather learn it in a class setting, as it can help to reduce bias, especially if it's a professional in the field. Of course it won't reduce it completely, but it helps, .

Would you also rather learn physics from someone other than a physicist? Carpentry from someone other than a carpenter? Reading from someone who doesn't read?

I certainly won't ever practice a religion to learn it, as it would go against the fundamentals of what I personally believe. I mean, I wouldn't be opposed to trying Buddhism, but I'm sure it has its hidden flaws that I don't even know about.

Why Buddhism, of all faiths? (No, it's not a rhetorical question, and neither is the previous one).

[Bareassedmunky]

a non-sequitur ? not if they go by "it works this way 'cause that's how God wills it, like it or not" :/
a bit like the part with the apple perhaps

This sort of hits at the heart of the debate of how theists and atheists can discuss things - in order for me to make sense out of the bible, I would have accept the argument that god can do whatever he wants, which would require me to have faith. In order to have faith, I would have to accept that god can do whatever he wants, otherwise the bible makes no sense.

Whereas people who already have this faith, ignore this paradox because they want to believe in something. Confirmation bias is a strong factor in faith. The promise of eternal life and that there is an all powerful being looking over us and protecting us is a nice thought, and people will ignore whatever flaws are in the theory in order to hold onto this hope.




The way I actually see whole jesus dying issue is -
'We have a mesiah...whoohoo...'
'He's dead...erm...he was supposed to die!'


It's kind of like when you knock something over and say...'I meant to do that'