Is Airforce Ranking Offensive?

[Liam Kincaid]

Recently, in the Forum Announcement's thread about the new Gateworld ranking system http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=62308 , in which Goa'uld based ranks have been replaced with United States Airforce based ones, someone posted that this made sense because the Goa'uld are evil and, in the Stargate universe, the Airforce are the good guys.

I replied by saying that this is only because it is Science Fiction, and that, in our real universe it is not the Goa'uld who have bombed innocent civilians or littered Iraq with Depleted Uranium. I further explained that, if my ranking label here at Gateworld had to be an evil one, I would much rather play the part of an evil fictional alien like the Goa'uld than that of a real live person who kills real live people. Someone else jumped in with a post about whether the Armed Forces themselves or the politicians who give them their orders should be held responsible for what happens when the Armed Forces carry those orders out,and I replied.

This exchange was deleted by Mods. At first it was called inappropriate for Gateworld, but later, it was suggested that it be moved to the off-topic folder. So here it is:

I am opposed to the new U.S. Airforce based ranking system for Gateworld because I am opposed to what the U.S. Airforce has been doing in the real world duiring the last decade or two, and I don't want to be identified with it. This is a thread for anyone who has any thoughts or comments about that.

[Madeleine]

If you are so opposed to the USAF that you do not want a SF discussion forum to make a fun game of ascending through the AF ranks as we post on the board, how do you square your conscience with watching a TV show for up to 42 minutes a week which depends on the USAF for a large part of its background, not to mention using a paid USAF advisor and giving occasional cameos to generals?

[Womble]

I am opposed to your opposition.

[Jeffala]

I am indifferent.

Off-topic: Does everyone get this ad or just me?

Spoiler:

[Dr Weir]

The only thing I have against the new ranking system is that it's boring.

Goa'uld are the bad guys, but they're cool and it's only fiction!

[Dr Weir]

I am indifferent.

Off-topic: Does everyone get this ad or just me?

Spoiler:

I have it right now....

*Tries to hold a straight face.*

[Liam Kincaid]

If you are so opposed to the USAF that you do not want a SF discussion forum to make a fun game of ascending through the AF ranks as we post on the board, how do you square your conscience with watching a TV show for up to 42 minutes a week which depends on the USAF for a large part of its background, not to mention using a paid USAF advisor and giving occasional cameos to generals?

Several points:

I know that you have seen the original Stargate movie, the one that launched the whole franchise, haven't you? Would you call that movie pro-Airforce? If theater owners and moviegoers had reacted to that movie the same way that some here have reacted to my post, then there never would have been an SG-1 or a Gateworld.

That movie was actually much more ant-military than I am. I am not against the Airforce as an institution. I just don't like what it's been used for lately. That movie struck me as being against the military as an institution. I would be all for the Airforce being used to defend Earth from hostile aliens. I just don't like them dropping things like Depleted Uranium on countries that aren't threatening us. I have watched SG-1 and I really can't see Jack O'Neil obeying an order to do something like that. Can you?

I have enjoyed watching Atlantis because that show, especially when Elizabeth Weir was still in charge, very often showed the conflict between the military way and another way. I was on her side. I guess, ultimately, TPTB were not. But I still enjoy the show. Many of the main characters on Atlantis are not US Military, and a few of the main characters on SG-1 were not.

I was not aware of the Airforce advisor. Was there one from the beginning? If not, when were they added? I have noticed later Stargate having more of a pro-military flavor than vintage Stargate. I prefer vintage Stargate. I continue to watch out of loyalty.


P.S. Did input from the military advisor have anything to do with the decision to eliminate Weir as a main character? I wouldn't be suprised.

[Flyboy]

As the great Clausewitz once said, 'War is a continuation of policy by other means'. Without politicians and governments we would have no warfare. If you don't like the current conflicts, take it up with your government, not the people who are risking their lives to try and do what they believe is right and bring security to to an uncertain world.

Do not liken men and women who risk their necks in defence of their country to evil villains. Have you considered what would happen if we were to disband the militaries? Either a rogue state, or a non-state actor would take advantage of the lack of defence and strike.

In addition, are you aware how much aid work, charity, and humanitarian relief work the military engage in? A lot.

If you don't support wars - fine.

If you don't want to risk your own life for your country or to save strangers - fine.

But DON'T dishonour those who have died, and those who are currently out there fighting, just because you disagree with a POLITICAL desicion. Take issue with your government, not your military.

[Morbo]

Recently, in the Forum Announcement's thread about the new Gateworld ranking system http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=62308 , in which Goa'uld based ranks have been replaced with United States Airforce based ones, someone posted that this made sense because the Goa'uld are evil and, in the Stargate universe, the Airforce are the good guys.

I replied by saying that this is only because it is Science Fiction, and that, in our real universe it is not the Goa'uld who have bombed innocent civilians or littered Iraq with Depleted Uranium. I further explained that, if my ranking label here at Gateworld had to be an evil one, I would much rather play the part of an evil fictional alien like the Goa'uld than that of a real live person who kills real live people. Someone else jumped in with a post about whether the Armed Forces themselves or the politicians who give them their orders should be held responsible for what happens when the Armed Forces carry those orders out,and I replied.

This exchange was deleted by Mods. At first it was called inappropriate for Gateworld, but later, it was suggested that it be moved to the off-topic folder. So here it is:

I am opposed to the new U.S. Airforce based ranking system for Gateworld because I am opposed to what the U.S. Airforce has been doing in the real world duiring the last decade or two, and I don't want to be identified with it. This is a thread for anyone who has any thoughts or comments about that.

quick, someone call the

[LiliJ]

Nice thread! I was interested by the comment Madeleine_W made - if I am so opposed to the military why would I watch Stargate? Well, I started on Atlantis (still my fave, though I love SG-1) so that got me into it and naturally I wanted to see more. Also, there are quite a few anti-military/anti-politics messages in SG, though it is a military organisation. What Stargate does is highlight the good side of the military, but not deny the shadier aspects which I think is brave and true to life, as there is right and wrong in everything. And although I am anti-military I do (as Flying Officer Bennett pointed out that we should) respect military officers - they risk their lives and I respect that.

The military has grown out of human conflict which, frankly, is unavoidable because of human nature. Of course, in a perfect world there would be no war, but I do not in any way think that is ever going to be possible. And it's true that the military protects us.

BUT there are, as I said earlier, shadier aspects to it. For all the bravery of the officers I don't want to be affiliated with a profession that (though it sometimes protects us) ultimately kills fellow human beings. Also, I'm English, and although I like America the US military is one of the things I don't like so much about it. I want to be patriotic to MY country, not another one! At least the Goa'uld ranking system was universal (and silly).

So really, I wish that there had been at least a vote for the new ranking system, because I am not, nor do I ever want to be, a member of the US Air Force.

[Liam Kincaid]

But DON'T dishonour those who have died, and those who are currently out there fighting, just because you disagree with a POLITICAL desicion. Take issue with your government, not your military.

And don't dishonor the hundreds of thousands of women and children who weren't fighting anybody who died because those political decisions were carried out in the form of bombs being dropped on their country, including bombs which kill for years and years and years after they are dropped.

Yes, the politicians who gave those orders are the real villians. But no one had to obey those orders. I wouldn't have.

[LiliJ]

And don't dishonor the hundreds of thousands of women and children who weren't fighting anybody who died because those political decisions were carried out in the form of bombs being dropped on their country, including bombs which kill for years and years and years after they are dropped.

Yes, the politicians who gave those orders are the real villians. But no one had to obey those orders. I wouldn't have.

I agree, but simply for the sake of discussion (I like playing Devil's Advocate and trying to see both sides of an argument) what would happen if they hadn't? Wouldn't we have anarchy, chaos and mutiny? Much as I hate it, ultimately we have no freedom - we are bound by society and the laws that protect us. The only other way is to have no rules, and just imagine what would happen then...

Yay, I love debate! Can't wait to do Philosophy at uni...

[Laura Dove]

I have enjoyed watching Atlantis because that show, especially when Elizabeth Weir was still in charge, very often showed the conflict between the military way and another way. I was on her side.

I agree with you, especially with this part. However, I don't care about the ranking system enough to protest. I was already paying little attention to it when it was Goa'uld-related (never watched SG-1), and now that it's even less meaningful for me, I don't even see it at all any more. I already don't know the ranking system in the French military, so expecting me to find any meaning in an US military ranking system is a joke. But as I said, I don't care enough to try and change things, sorry.

[LiliJ]

I agree with you, especially with this part. However, I don't care about the ranking system enough to protest. I was already paying little attention to it when it was Goa'uld-related (never watched SG-1), and now that it's even less meaningful for me, I don't even see it at all any more. I already don't know the ranking system in the French military, so expecting me to find any meaning in an US military ranking system is a joke. But as I said, I don't care enough to try and change things, sorry.

Until I went on the other ranking thread I didn't really notice it either! Then I started thinking about it, and got all principled and patriotic (ENGLAND! Although France rocks too, love Paris). Hey, is there a formal complaint system on Gateworld? I would like to send one, not a nasty complaint, but just to mention that I'm English and a pacifist...

[Liam Kincaid]

I agree, but simply for the sake of discussion (I like playing Devil's Advocate and trying to see both sides of an argument) what would happen if they hadn't? Wouldn't we have anarchy, chaos and mutiny? Much as I hate it, ultimately we have no freedom - we are bound by society and the laws that protect us. The only other way is to have no rules, and just imagine what would happen then...

Yay, I love debate! Can't wait to do Philosophy at uni...

Jack O'Neil has disobeyed many an order in his day. So has John Sheppard. As a matter of fact, we've even seen General Hammond disobey one or two. In some of those cases, if they had obeyed those orders, Earth would have been destroyed. In other cases, disobeying was just the right thing for them to do. Taken as a whole, the core message of this franchise has not exactly been "My Country Right or Wrong", now has it?