The GW Linguists and Polyglots Thread.

[Gregorius]

From the "Interview the mods" thread I bring to you this brand new thread dedicated to languages on GW.

Patron Mod: Feli (I bestowed this honour upon her because she can speak German and likes chocolate )

Alea iacta est et sic infit.

Let the games begin.

[Tracy Jane]

Whoot! It's like my own personal (and professional?) playpen.

In honour of the opening of the thread, and the current discussion in the "Interview the Mods" thread, here is a little French lesson about the use of the present tense.

The present tense in French is used to express:

1. current actions and situations (eg. Je suis heureuse - I am happy)
2. habitual actions (je vais au travail tous les jours - I go to work everyday)
3. general / absolute truths (le monde est grand - the earth is big)
4. future events that will happen immediately (J'arrive - I will be right there)
5. as part of a "si clause" condition (si il pleut, je vais aller en voiture - if it rains, I'll go by car)

In French, you do NOT translate the English auxiallary (helping) verbs "to be" and "to do".

I am eating = je mange
I eat = je mange
I do eat = je mange

The only exception to this is when you want to emphasise the fact that you are doing something right now. In this case you may do the following.

Je suis en train de manger - I am in the process of eating (right now)

However, unless you want to emphasis the timing, it sounds awkward. Remember that not every language has the same grammatical structure as English and if you try to translate things directly across, you will end up with sentences that although stylistically pretty, will sound incredibly laboured and not at all idiomatic.

[miju]

Someone please please explain to me why "must" doesn't have a past tense or a future tense

Why can't we say " I musted to do that." or

"I will must to do that"?

[Tracy Jane]

Must is a modal auxilliary verb that represents a personal obligation. For sentences involving a general or real obligation, we use the verb "to have to" in English. When a personal obligation becomes past tense, it becomes a "real" obligation, and therefore uses "to have to". In the same manner, something pre-empted is generally considered a real obligation and uses "to have to".

In a lot of ways, "must" and "have to" are very similar in English, except for in the negative sense (I must not / I don't have to) and so can be interchanged as above. In many grammar books, they are considered to be one single verb.

This makes it difficult for English students to learn foreign languages as they automatically look for an equivalent. For example, in German, you have the verbs "mussen" and "durfen" (Excuse the lack of umlauts, my laptop doesn't accept the international codes). Many students try to translate "mussen" as "must", when it does not. "Mussen" means "to have to" (I have to / I don't have to) and "durfen" means "to be allowed to" (I am allowed to / I am not allowed to).

Hope that helps a little bit.

[SoulReaver]

ash nazg durb atuluk, ash nazg gimb atul, ash nazg thrak atuluk, agh burzum ishi krimp atul

[Tracy Jane]

Elvish?

[SoulReaver]

yes (a dark variant, actually)

how did you know ?

[Tracy Jane]

I recognised ash and nazg. It was Elvish that got me interested in linguistics as a child. I first read LOTR when I was six and I was awed by the way that not only could someone speak another language, but someone could create a language. I was obsessed by the appendices of LOTR when I was little, and can still recognise a few characteristic traits of Elvish, but I can't remember any of the vocabulary, sadly. Care to translate?

[SoulReaver]

= one ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all, and in darkness bind them

those words are in an elvish dialect (Mordor variant)

they were spoken when the one ring was forged by Preshley, an elvish - the King of elves actually
(or am I mixing up with something else ? -)

[Tracy Jane]

I should have workebd that one out *rolls eyes*

Excuse the bad spnelling, I have a hamster roaming my keyboard. Little monster.

[SoulReaver]

not an excuse, I have a mouse near my keyboard and it never posed a problem

[miju]

Must is a modal auxilliary verb that represents a personal obligation. For sentences involving a general or real obligation, we use the verb "to have to" in English. When a personal obligation becomes past tense, it becomes a "real" obligation, and therefore uses "to have to". In the same manner, something pre-empted is generally considered a real obligation and uses "to have to".

In a lot of ways, "must" and "have to" are very similar in English, except for in the negative sense (I must not / I don't have to) and so can be interchanged as above. In many grammar books, they are considered to be one single verb.

This makes it difficult for English students to learn foreign languages as they automatically look for an equivalent. For example, in German, you have the verbs "mussen" and "durfen" (Excuse the lack of umlauts, my laptop doesn't accept the international codes). Many students try to translate "mussen" as "must", when it does not. "Mussen" means "to have to" (I have to / I don't have to) and "durfen" means "to be allowed to" (I am allowed to / I am not allowed to).

Hope that helps a little bit.

I know, but it isn't an excuse. English is very logical with many of its' verbs - must should have the decency to have a past and future tense.

[Tracy Jane]

Decency? Logic? Language is a fluid and ever changing being. We have no right to regulate or judge a language, to say what is right or what is wrong. Occurances such as this are what make languages so fascinating to study!

Looking at the etymology, "must" comes from "moste", the past tense of "motan" in Old English, which came from the proto-Germanic word "motanan". We started using "must" as a present tense circa 1300, when it became fashionable to use the past subjunctive as a polite form of the present.

So, essentially, must used to have a past tense, but social tendencies meant that the past tense got used as the present and the present tense got lost in time.

[miju]

Decency? Logic? Language is a fluid and ever changing being. We have no right to regulate or judge a language, to say what is right or what is wrong. Occurances such as this are what make languages so fascinating to study!

Looking at the etymology, "must" comes from "moste", the past tense of "motan" in Old English, which came from the proto-Germanic word "motanan". We started using "must" as a present tense circa 1300, when it became fashionable to use the past subjunctive as a polite form of the present.

So, essentially, must used to have a past tense, but social tendencies meant that the past tense got used as the present and the present tense got lost in time.

poor "must"

ain't got no past; no sure bout da present; never had no future

watchin' my future's end