Religious Beliefs

[~Dave]

There is no before the universe as time is a dimension of the universe.

Exactly how do you know that? I see infinity as the negation of time not the addition of it. How can you know what existed before our universe?

~Dave

[shipper hannah]

And his birth changed the way the entire world recons time. With his birth everything became years BC or AD. Except the Jews, and they still use years from the Creation Event. Sounds like it's a reasonable historic event, to me.

The entire world? No, just the Christian world. Anno Domini era wasn't introduced until the 6th Century.

[AvatarIII]

Exactly how do you know that?

~Dave

it's not so much "known" as it is "possible".
however nearly every theory of the universe states time as a linear dimension of the universe. before the universe there was no time in the same way there was no depth, height or width.

[shipper hannah]

Exactly how do you know that?

That is how we define the universe.

I see infinity as the negation of time not the addition of it.

That would only make sense within the context of time. Imagine time just stopped now, there would not be infinite time there would be just no time.

How can you know what existed before our universe?

~Dave

Like I said, it is nonsensical to talk of 'before' without time.

[AvatarIII]

Exactly how do you know that? I see infinity as the negation of time not the addition of it. How can you know what existed before our universe?

~Dave

noone can know what existed before the universe, because no information could survive an event like the creation of a universe, the best we can do is speculate. anyone that tells you that they know what existed before the universe began is lying

[~Dave]

it's not so much "known" as it is "possible".
however nearly every theory of the universe states time as a linear dimension of the universe. before the universe there was no time in the same way there was no depth, height or width.

"There is no before the universe as time is a dimension of the universe."

Sorry, you made it sound like much more than just a theory. So in fact we cannot make any statements about what existed before our universe. Ergo, for me anyway, we cannot rule out God.

~Dave

[AvatarIII]

"There is no before the universe as time is a dimension of the universe."

Sorry, you made it sound like much more than just a theory. So in fact we cannot make any statements about what existed before our universe. Ergo, for me anyway, we cannot rule out God.

~Dave

sorry, that statement was supposed to be a simplified example of what many theories state.

also, i have never said i rule out the existance of a god. but i beleive that there is no point worrying about whether there is a god or not, or which god it is. all you can do is listen to all the available theories and keep an open mind, or alternatively align your self with a favourite. but i will never discount the possibility that i am wrong.

edit: i just realised, are you getting me and hannah confused with each other?

[shipper hannah]

"There is no before the universe as time is a dimension of the universe."

Sorry, you made it sound like much more than just a theory. So in fact we cannot make any statements about what existed before our universe. Ergo, for me anyway, we cannot rule out God.

~Dave

You cannot say anything of 'before'. We define the universe as the entirety of space and time. We can't say anything of what else might exist other than our universe, only that 'outside', 'before' and hence causality are meaningless.

[~Dave]

sorry, that statement was supposed to be a simplified example of what many theories state.

also, i have never said i rule out the existance of a god. but i beleive that there is no point worrying about whether there is a god or not, or which god it is. all you can do is listen to all the available theories and keep an open mind, or alternatively align your self with a favourite. but i will never discount the possibility that i am wrong.

That's exactly my point. You made it better than me. This is why I have trouble understanding those who take a position on this. Like Theists, and Atheists. Both go on and on about something neither one can possibly know for sure. So both, and I think Atheism has been judged in courts to be a religion in itself, rely on faith for their points of view, and reality (whatever it is) has nothing to do with it. That's why I get into stuff like where the first "something" came from. It's directly related to creation, what creation actually is, and what caused it to happen.

~Dave

[shipper hannah]

That's exactly my point. You made it better than me. This is why I have trouble understanding those who take a position on this. Like Theists, and Atheists. Both go on and on about something neither one can possibly know for sure. So both, and I think Atheism has been judged in courts to be a religion in itself, rely on faith for their points of view, and reality (whatever it is) has nothing to do with it. That's why I get into stuff like where the first "something" came from. It's directly related to creation, what creation actually is, and what caused it to happen.

~Dave

Atheism does not require a belief in a god, only a lack of belief that there is one. Do you see the difference?

[~Dave]

Atheism does not require a belief in a god, only a lack of belief that there is one. Do you see the difference?

Of course I see the difference. Do you see my point about them both?

~Dave

[shipper hannah]

Of course I see the difference. Do you see my point about them both?

~Dave

Yes, you said:
Both go on and on about something neither one can possibly know for sure. So both, and I think Atheism has been judged in courts to be a religion in itself, rely on faith for their points of view, and reality (whatever it is) has nothing to do with it.

Atheism isn't about knowing anything or having faith, it is just the absense of belief in a god or gods. There are no assumptions required.

[jenks]

That's the crux of the whole thing, I think, as far as religion is concerned. Essence precedes existence. So who or what thought of the universe before it existed?

~Dave

Like shipper hannah has said, 'before' is a relative term based on a time-scale, if there is no time they there's no such thing as before. I'd disagree with what she's said about 'outside' though, there are many hypotheses about the universe as we percieve it not being the be all and end all of reality as we know it. All just speculation on what could be of course, but still leaves room discovery, and I much prefer that than just assuming there must have been a creator just because right now the answers are beyond us, if we were content with thinking like that we'd probably still be living in caves.

[~Dave]

Yes, you said:
Both go on and on about something neither one can possibly know for sure. So both, and I think Atheism has been judged in courts to be a religion in itself, rely on faith for their points of view, and reality (whatever it is) has nothing to do with it.

Atheism isn't about knowing anything or having faith, it is just the absense of belief in a god or gods. There are no assumptions required.

I see your point. Well made. From my perspective, though, Atheists make the assumption that there is no God. Theists make the assumption there is one, or more. Neither can possibly know for sure. I have no idea which position came first. And I don't know how Agnostics fit in between the other two. But Atheists seem to actively try to prove there is only the natural world. While Theists try to prove there is a spiritual world headed by God(s). It seems to an ongoing conflict in this thread.

~Dave

[~Dave]

Like shipper hannah has said, 'before' is a relative term based on a time-scale, if there is no time they there's no such thing as before. I'd disagree with what she's said about 'outside' though, there are many hypotheses about the universe as we percieve it not being the be all and end all of reality as we know it. All just speculation on what could be of course, but still leaves room discovery, and I much prefer that than just assuming there must have been a creator just because right now the answers are beyond us, if we were content with thinking like that we'd probably still be living in caves.

The age old question of:

If the universe is everything, and it is expanding, what is it expanding in to?

~Dave