Religious Beliefs

[~Dave]

Assuming the God of the Christian Bible does exist. Is it possible that God is only all knowing when it comes to us? Is it possible He does not know where evil came from and how to destroy it, and we have to continue on in this struggle until He figures it out and then does something about it?

Could it be that the others who are with God, like Lucifer, were always in existence like God? When God refers to what he is doing He seems to always refer to Himself in the plural. "Let us make man in our image", for example. And then one day some of those Deities get the "bad" bug. And none of them yet know what it is and where it came from, and how to deal with it. So, for awhile there's a stand-off of sorts.

~Dave

[AvatarIII]

that would mean that the angels are equal to God, and that's not what the bible says sorry to poke a massive hole in your theory, but most religious people aren't open to changing their interpretations of their holy texts, just to pander to random people's theories, if they were happy to change their ideas, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because wheras the scientific community is happy to say "oh look that theory looks more likely than the one we've been using so far, we'll look into it further" the religious community says "la la la, i can't hear your new ideas, la la la"

sorry if this post has offended anyone, i'm not talking about any specific people, just the majority, the "figureheads" if you will. if i have offended anyone, this is why i normally avoid these kinds of threads.

[~Dave]

that would mean that the angels are equal to God, and that's not what the bible says sorry to poke a massive hole in your theory, but most religious people aren't open to changing their interpretations of their holy texts, just to pander to random people's theories, if they were happy to change their ideas, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because wheras the scientific community is happy to say "oh look that theory looks more likely than the one we've been using so far, we'll look into it further" the religious community says "la la la, i can't hear your new ideas, la la la"

sorry if this post has offended anyone, i'm not talking about any specific people, just the majority, the "figureheads" if you will. if i have offended anyone, this is why i normally avoid these kinds of threads.

Not necessarily. God might still be the most powerful, and capable of destroying the others. But He might not know where this thing called "evil" came from, or what it is, that infected many of His fellow beings. And if we're ever to live happy ever after in Heaven some day, He's got to get a handle on this and get it fixed, so to speak.

I'm just asking if there's any way to entertain this theory?

~Dave

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

Oh and if God created everything he created the Devil

Yes He did. And He gave the devil free will just like us. Satan chose to turn against God.


I am sorry to hear that horrible things have happened to you, Coco Pops, Bee11 and dalene.

I agree with everything dalene said. And I'll add that, along with the fact that without pain and sadness we couldn't truly know happiness, suffering can also makes us stronger and better if we let it. I know this from personal experience..... I have a chronic disease, and I've had it for over eight years. As hard as it has been and still is.... I've recently come to realize that I'm a much better and stronger person in so many ways.


Anyway. I'm not sure if I've posted here before or not, but to answer the original question of the thread, my faith wouldn't be at all shaken by the finding of alien life, intelligent or not.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Do you know what omniscience means? If the God of the Bible existed, he would have known what Adam and Eve were going to do before they did it, he would have created the universe knowing full well all the evil things people were going to do to each other. He would be responsible for everything evil in the world, directly. Why did he create us like we are? Why not make us inherently good? Because like I say, if he existed, he'd be a sadist.



It's wholly irrational, so of course I can't.



The Christian God is supposed to be the source of everything, he created the universe and everything in it, including evil. Again you're underestimating omniscience, everything that has and will happen 'God' would have known about the second he created the universe. He knew Hitler would execute millions, he also knew Ted Bundy would rape and murder all those women, yet he still did it. If it actually happened it would be the most evil act in the history of time itself, it's an indefensible action.



Don't create it in the first place.



No, morality is relative.



No it doesn't. You're deluded if you think the entire world derives morality from your imaginary friend. Hell, there are tribes out there that have probably never even heard of Christianity.



There isn't one.


No it doesn't, and hasn't.



You are perhaps. I wouldn't bother.



You mean because of the complete lack of evidence for one?



I'm not sure what you mean, different how?



If he's omnipotent, that wouldn't happen. He would have known that were going to happen before it did.


I nice hypothetical situation that has no bearing on reality what so ever. You still don't seem to grasp omnipotence. If there were a God and he were omnipotent then he would know everything that happened, everything that is happening, and everything that will happen. He would have also known this before he created the universe. The idea that a loving God would create us the way we are, and create such a barbaric reality for us is ridiculous.

Where do I begin to answer this? I'll start with the one you've mentioned the most.

Omniscience is all-knowing, and all-comprehending. Yes, God knew everything that would happen before anything happened. God created everything knowing what would happen. And yet He chose to do it. Why? I'm not going to pretend I know why he didn't just stop evil before the world became corrupt. But that's the thing about His omniscience. He also knows the end of it all, the redemption of the world. I'm not omniscient, so I don't know why god did this, and why he didn't do that.

Omnipotence is having all-power, and all-authority. god's omnipotence has nothing to do with his omniscience, only in that God is still in control. Nothing becomes out of control for God, nothing slips from his grasp. God would be responsible, indirectly. He never committed any evil. I have never underestimated omniscience. Maybe I shouldn't have used "realize". And as I said. Evil is not something that is created. Just like happiness is not something that is created. God did not create a barbaric reality. God created a peaceful, orderly reality for us to live in. It's like a new car. It's nice, fully functioning, and clean. It is capable of becoming dirty, but it doesn't mean it is inherently dirty from its creation. but once you get it dirty, it's very hard to make it completely clean again. It will continue to be dirty, unless it is remade. Also, God chose to give us choice. Because relationships are no good if you possess no will of your own. Imagine a marriage where one partner just mindlessly does what the other says. OR imagine a child who mindlessly does what his father says. That's not a relationship. A relationship is a willing covenant between two people. Now, when I say that morality comes from God, I mean that God created Adam and Eve with the ability to do good and evil. However, he created them as good, perfect, having done no wrong. When they sinned, they didn't lose the good that God had created them with, but they became corrupt by nature, even though by today's standards they continued to do good. That good became corrupted and muddled with evil, so that while they were still capable of doing good, they were constantly tempted with doing evil. Even an uneducated, poor individual knows inherently that murder is wrong. Regardless of whether or not they know the consequences and law, they know that murder is not good. That's what I mean when I say our morality comes from God. Since you believe so strongly in reason and rational thinking, answer me this question- Why in the world do we choose to do good to people? According to reason, we should only help ourselves. We should only help others when it is beneficial to us. We live in a world where one has to survive, so why do we choose to give of ourselves, in essence bringing hurt to ourselves, detracting from ourselves, in order to build someone else up? The rational thing to do would be to forget about everyone else, and live a life of greed and corruption. After all, it would be helping ourselves. Also, if morality is relative then morality does not exist. If morality, which defines good and evil, is relative, then we as a world have no right to restrict nations from attacking one another, or developing nuclear and biological weapons, or committing genocide, because good and bad are relative, and such interference would infringe upon the freedoms of certain groups. If good and evil are relative, then technically good and evil could not logically exist.

I forgot to add, if God is not ALL-knowing, ALL-powerful, and Ever-present, then He is not worthy of being God. It's that simple. IF he is not the Highest being in existence, He is not God.

[jenks]

Where do I begin to answer this? I'll start with the one you've mentioned the most.

Omniscience is all-knowing, and all-comprehending. Yes, God knew everything that would happen before anything happened. God created everything knowing what would happen. And yet He chose to do it. Why? I'm not going to pretend I know why he didn't just stop evil before the world became corrupt. But that's the thing about His omniscience. He also knows the end of it all, the redemption of the world. I'm not omniscient, so I don't know why god did this, and why he didn't do that.

You've essentially just said that instead of your beliefs being nonsense like they appear to be, God must know something that you don't, and what he's done must be right, my question is, why?

Omnipotence is having all-power, and all-authority. god's omnipotence has nothing to do with his omniscience, only in that God is still in control. Nothing becomes out of control for God, nothing slips from his grasp. God would be responsible, indirectly. He never committed any evil. I have never underestimated omniscience. Maybe I shouldn't have used "realize". And as I said. Evil is not something that is created. Just like happiness is not something that is created. God did not create a barbaric reality. God created a peaceful, orderly reality for us to live in. It's like a new car. It's nice, fully functioning, and clean. It is capable of becoming dirty, but it doesn't mean it is inherently dirty from its creation. but once you get it dirty, it's very hard to make it completely clean again. It will continue to be dirty, unless it is remade. Also, God chose to give us choice. Because relationships are no good if you possess no will of your own. Imagine a marriage where one partner just mindlessly does what the other says. OR imagine a child who mindlessly does what his father says. That's not a relationship. A relationship is a willing covenant between two people. Now, when I say that morality comes from God, I mean that God created Adam and Eve with the ability to do good and evil. However, he created them as good, perfect, having done no wrong. When they sinned, they didn't lose the good that God had created them with, but they became corrupt by nature, even though by today's standards they continued to do good. That good became corrupted and muddled with evil, so that while they were still capable of doing good, they were constantly tempted with doing evil. Even an uneducated, poor individual knows inherently that murder is wrong. Regardless of whether or not they know the consequences and law, they know that murder is not good. That's what I mean when I say our morality comes from God. Since you believe so strongly in reason and rational thinking, answer me this question- Why in the world do we choose to do good to people? According to reason, we should only help ourselves. We should only help others when it is beneficial to us. We live in a world where one has to survive, so why do we choose to give of ourselves, in essence bringing hurt to ourselves, detracting from ourselves, in order to build someone else up? The rational thing to do would be to forget about everyone else, and live a life of greed and corruption. After all, it would be helping ourselves. Also, if morality is relative then morality does not exist. If morality, which defines good and evil, is relative, then we as a world have no right to restrict nations from attacking one another, or developing nuclear and biological weapons, or committing genocide, because good and bad are relative, and such interference would infringe upon the freedoms of certain groups. If good and evil are relative, then technically good and evil could not logically exist.

If you view morality as some static set of rules common to everyone in the universe then no, morality doesn't exist. But that's not what morality is, morals are created by humans for humans, they're no more correct or incorrect than the laws we make for ourselves are, they're subjective, not objective.

May I ask why you believe all this in the first place? You've made a lot of assertions, but given no explanation for why you believe them to be true.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

You've essentially just said that instead of your beliefs being nonsense like they appear to be, God must know something that you don't, and what he's done must be right, my question is, why?



If you view morality as some static set of rules common to everyone in the universe then no, morality doesn't exist. But that's not what morality is, morals are created by humans for humans, they're no more correct or incorrect than the laws we make for ourselves are, they're subjective, not objective.

May I ask why you believe all this in the first place? You've made a lot of assertions, but given no explanation for why you believe them to be true.

I would hope that god knew more than I did. Otherwise why believe in Him.

I guess "presonal experience" wouldn't be a rational explanation. If you are looking for me to explain or prove God's existence, you know you aren't going to get an answer. I can't explain to you in the scientific sense that God exists. You know that. If I could, I'm sure many more people would believe. The only thing I can tell you is to try Him for yourself. That's all I can do. If you are looking for more, you just aren't going to get it.

[jenks]

You mean you're telling me you've 'felt the touch of God', so to speak?

[Coco Pops]

Back to that original question.

If the discovery of alien life wouldn't really upset people why is it that whenever things like this are looked at in government circles a wall of secrecy has to exist.

[AvatarIII]

Can omniscient God, who
knows the future find
the omnipotence to
change his future mind?
Karen Ownens

a little poem i found

[~Dave]

Back to that original question.

If the discovery of alien life wouldn't really upset people why is it that whenever things like this are looked at in government circles a wall of secrecy has to exist.

I'm not sure that's true. They seem to be actively searching for life in our own solar system. Any and every time they think they might have found evidence of life, it's all over the news.

~Dave

[Coco Pops]

I'm not sure that's true. They seem to be actively searching for life in our own solar system. Any and every time they think they might have found evidence of life, it's all over the news.

~Dave

Ah.....but that's life like microbes and stuff. I mean sentient life like a higher life form other then microbes. Would that be broadcast publicly?

[~Dave]

Ah.....but that's life like microbes and stuff. I mean sentient life like a higher life form other then microbes. Would that be broadcast publicly?

I don't know for sure. But I think that would be hard to keep quiet. Right now they seem to do that with non-verifiable sightings of UFOs and so-called abductions. But to discover life on another planet would be on our terms. They did not come here. We would have gone there. It makes us the UFO to the aliens. It might make all the difference to be the ones in control. I just pity the life forms we find. *edit*It would be better for them if their existence was kept a secret from the general population.

~Dave

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

Back to that original question.

If the discovery of alien life wouldn't really upset people why is it that whenever things like this are looked at in government circles a wall of secrecy has to exist.

Because it would upset/scare some people. And that has nothing to do with religion specifically, people can be paranoid without being religious....

OR, the government doesn't want people to know because they want to study it themselves without any complications of media and such. Or they'd just want to feel like they're in control.

OR, there really is nothing to cover up other than military experiments so far and if aliens did come they wouldn't be able to or maybe even not even try to cover it up.

The original question was asking if it would upset people's religious beliefs specifically. And for the most part, I can't see why it should. I'm sure it would effect some people's beliefs, religious or not. But it wouldn't effect everyone's.

[Betelgeuze]

I think that how people respond depends greatly on what religion they follow, and how fundamentalistic they are in their beliefs. If we were to make contact with extraterrestrial life forms with an intelligence equal or greater then our own, i think that fundamentalist believers of the Abrahamic religions will have the most problems accepting them. It seems likely to me that the Christian fundamentalists will claim that these beings are inferior to us, because they were not created by god, and therefore have no soul, and/or that they are not our equals because Jesus was born on Earth and died for the sins of mankind. Of course i could be wrong, i'm not a Christian fundy. My opinion on their reaction is based on my experience growing up amongst them.

More moderate religious people, and atheists/agnostics are unlikely to view these aliens in a negative light because they are from another planet. Also many religious people are capable of interpreting their religious texts in such a way that they are in harmony with scientific discoveries.

I think it is sad that making contact with intelligent life would make some people see these beings as inferior. One thing that has always bothered me about religion is that most, if not all of them claim to have the absolute truth. But lets face it, the existence of the Christian god isn't anymore likely then the existence of the Hindu gods. As long as people can not accept that anothers religion is just as valid as their own, and keep having such dogmatic mindsets, i hope that we do not encounter intelligent aliens. Before we can interact with other intelligent life forms as equals, we first need to learn to treat each other as equals.