Religious Beliefs

[Bee11]

I am a christian..but I believe that God did create us through allowing evolution on this planet...and possibly others...as for the time frame, think about it 1 day for god would be a few 100 million yrs to us, so metaphorically speaking 6 days is not far fetched as far as God days are concerned..yes most Christians get ticked off when I mention my personal thoughts in these matters

If i was to believe God created us this would probably be my way of thing and to me the most logical way of thinking as it would fit alot better with scientific thinking than the literal idea of god creating us over 6 actual days

Also I thought Christians were taught to be thoughtful and respectful of others and their opinions?

[~Dave]

The modern science giving us humans certain eye opening revolations regarding the earth and the fact that it is indeed billions of yrs old...god gave us knowledge for a reason..so we wont be ignorant over time..back in the day they simply didnt have the modern science knowledge we have

What do you think of the idea I advanced about this in post 412 of this thread?

~Dave

[Coco Pops]

I've never read this thread before so i'm sure everyone whos posted here is argued to death on the subject

but I can't possiably believe what the above poster put due to what has happened in my own life
i am far from perfect but what i went through in high school NO ONE deserved
I don't know what I am supposed to have done to have deserved that but it's affected my life since and will continue to everyday - why would a loving God put someone through this? Not to disrespect anyone but no matter what anyone says about "god works in odd ways" explanation when they can't explain it i will never believe in the God that was preached to me in Religious Studies

I can so relate to that.

All the horrible things that have happened to me, and again in my life I got really close to someone, we were very close, almost boyfriend and girlfriend and then out of the blue I lose contact with her,and to find a month later after that, that she is having an engagement party. I only found out because I got a letter inviting me to come.

So if god exists and we take it literally then all this happens with his full knowledge, or even consent and for what? Sorry that's not any being I want to worship. And hence why to my family's horror I have disawoved myself from religion in all its forms.

[jenks]

I've never read this thread before so i'm sure everyone whos posted here is argued to death on the subject

but I can't possiably believe what the above poster put due to what has happened in my own life
i am far from perfect but what i went through in high school NO ONE deserved
I don't know what I am supposed to have done to have deserved that but it's affected my life since and will continue to everyday - why would a loving God put someone through this? Not to disrespect anyone but no matter what anyone says about "god works in odd ways" explanation when they can't explain it i will never believe in the God that was preached to me in Religious Studies

An appropriate quote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Epicurus

[Ltcolshepjumper]

I can so relate to that.

All the horrible things that have happened to me, and again in my life I got really close to someone, we were very close, almost boyfriend and girlfriend and then out of the blue I lose contact with her,and to find a month later after that, that she is having an engagement party. I only found out because I got a letter inviting me to come.

So if god exists and we take it literally then all this happens with his full knowledge, or even consent and for what? Sorry that's not any being I want to worship. And hence why to my family's horror I have disawoved myself from religion in all its forms.

Well, no offense, but God isn't going to force someone to be with you. God does not choose favorites. Do you want someone who will just do everything for you and for no one else? Have you at least considered the fact that you are alive? There are many people who don't live to see their friends move on. Within that month, she could have died. Millions die every day. A lot of times it's hard to understand why things do and do not happen. Trust me, Christians don't just pretend the world is ok. Look, I'm not pretending to know everything. In fact, I know very little. But what I do know is this- I would not be alive today if God was an evil being. I am not worthy enough to even live, let alone try to correct someone else's mistakes. I don't know why God chooses to show grace and mercy to some and not to others. I don't know. I won't even pretend to know, because if he is God, then he is all powerful, all knowing, and not bound by anything but his word. If he is God, then he is the very essence of perfection, of goodness. If he isn't every one of these things, he isn't God.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Epicurus

I only have one thing to say to this quote. And it's really simple. Remarkably, it's the only question of the quote that isn't followed by a declarative statement. One, God is both able and willing to prevent evil. So, from where does evil come? Well, as all of us know, most of the evil done in this world is caused by the people living here. That's easy to see. But, of course, there are those things that just happen, such as an illness. God will not force anyone to do anything. Now, what I am going to say may sound superstitious, it may sound weird, and it may sound very unrealistic, but God is a spirit. invisible, eternal, and not bound by natural forces. God is not the only spiritual being. In fact, there are many spiritual beings (I know, it sounds weird, and it seems so as I type it up). one group are angels (not like the people with wings). these are the servants of God. But, the original source of evil began with Satan, the devil, and his demons (angels that rebelled against God). They are reserved for judgment later (I don't know why). The Bible talks about all of this. Evil comes from two sources. I don't know why God chooses not to eliminate the problem. What I do know is that man is fallen, because of disobedience to God, decieved by the devil. Because man is fallen, evil entered into the world. Why do people tend to do the wrong thing rather than the right thing? Because of sin. But God will eliminate evil once and for all.

[atlantis-abydos]

I think I'd laugh about it... but I'd be really curious and would do anything to get to meet the ones who seeded us, to find out what purpose they saw in it, or if we were just some experiment. I'd want to learn as much as I possibly can - but I doubt it would affect me much more than that, I'd still be writing, as I am now.

[jenks]

I only have one thing to say to this quote. And it's really simple. Remarkably, it's the only question of the quote that isn't followed by a declarative statement.

Uh, no it's not.

One, God is both able and willing to prevent evil. So, from where does evil come? Well, as all of us know, most of the evil done in this world is caused by the people living here. That's easy to see. But, of course, there are those things that just happen, such as an illness. God will not force anyone to do anything.

You don't need to make people do something to prevent evil, you only have to stop them. If the God of the Bible actually existed, he would quite possibly be the most evil entity in the entire universe.

Now, what I am going to say may sound superstitious, it may sound weird, and it may sound very unrealistic, but God is a spirit.invisible, eternal, and not bound by natural forces. God is not the only spiritual being. In fact, there are many spiritual beings (I know, it sounds weird, and it seems so as I type it up). one group are angels (not like the people with wings). these are the servants of God.

It does, and is.

But, the original source of evil began with Satan, the devil, and his demons (angels that rebelled against God). They are reserved for judgment later (I don't know why). The Bible talks about all of this. Evil comes from two sources. I don't know why God chooses not to eliminate the problem. What I do know is that man is fallen, because of disobedience to God, decieved by the devil. Because man is fallen, evil entered into the world. Why do people tend to do the wrong thing rather than the right thing? Because of sin. But God will eliminate evil once and for all.

If 'God' created everything, then he is also the source of all evil. The real reason he doesn't stop evil, the most obvious reason, is because he doesn't exist.

[Womble]

You don't need to make people do something to prevent evil, you only have to stop them.

That would mean depriving people of free will, reducing them to automatons.

[Coco Pops]

I don't know why God chooses not to eliminate the problem. What I do know is that man is fallen, because of disobedience to God,

Define "fallen"

And what do you mean by "obedience to God?"

Do you realise if people lived literally according to the bible we'd never move out of our homes or even live normal lives as functioning human beings. There would be that much fear of the outside world,

Oh and if God created everything he created the Devil

[jenks]

That would mean depriving people of free will, reducing them to automatons.

No it wouldn't. If you try to punch me in the face, and I hold your hands behind your back, I haven't deprived you of free will. This also begs the question, why would a loving God create evil in the first place? Why would he create us the way we are knowing full well all the disgusting things we'd do to each other over the years, is he some sort of sadist or what?

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Define "fallen"

And what do you mean by "obedience to God?"
Do you realise if people lived literally according to the bible we'd never move out of our homes or even live normal lives as functioning human beings. There would be that much fear of the outside world,

Oh and if God created everything he created the Devil

Ok, first, by obedience to god I mean obedience to God. Specifically, I'm referring to the account of Adam and Eve eating of the fruit when they were told not to do it. Before that time, there had been no sin, no disobedience. Fallen- ever heard the term fallen from grace? Fallen from a state of perfection (not physical or material perfection, but spiritual perfection); man became corrupt and , although still capable of doing good, is also prone to do evil. Also, I never said anything about taking everything in the bible literally. And by literally I mean not putting things into context. Of course, the Bible was written between 3000 to 2000 years ago, so of course you can't take it completely literally. And, as was mentioned, it is somewhat difficult to separate the figurative and metaphorical from the literal. However, the things that pertain to everyday life are not obscure. And actually, yes, one can still function as a normal person (what do you mean by normal?) and still folow the teachings of the Bible. Many people have done it before, and many still do it today. Also, the Bible clearly speaks out against fear. In fact, to be fearful is in direct contradiction to Christian doctrine. When Christians don't read the Bible, they tend not to practice it in word and deed, which is a major problem with Christianity today. Oh, and yes, God did create the devil, but as I said, the devil was an angel. God created the angels, ironically with the same freedom of choice he gave to us. He holds them more accoutnable, however, for their actions, because they were created with the full knowledge of things both physical and spiritual, and have experienced the presence of God directly. And they were created as the servants of God. We were created as the children of God.

[Coco Pops]

Ok, first, by obedience to god I mean obedience to God. Specifically, I'm referring to the account of Adam and Eve eating of the fruit when they were told not to do it. Before that time, there had been no sin, no disobedience. Fallen- ever heard the term fallen from grace? Fallen from a state of perfection (not physical or material perfection, but spiritual perfection); man became corrupt and , although still capable of doing good, is also prone to do evil. Also, I never said anything about taking everything in the bible literally. And by literally I mean not putting things into context. Of course, the Bible was written between 3000 to 2000 years ago, so of course you can't take it completely literally. And, as was mentioned, it is somewhat difficult to separate the figurative and metaphorical from the literal. However, the things that pertain to everyday life are not obscure. And actually, yes, one can still function as a normal person (what do you mean by normal?) and still folow the teachings of the Bible. Many people have done it before, and many still do it today. Also, the Bible clearly speaks out against fear. In fact, to be fearful is in direct contradiction to Christian doctrine. When Christians don't read the Bible, they tend not to practice it in word and deed, which is a major problem with Christianity today. Oh, and yes, God did create the devil, but as I said, the devil was an angel. God created the angels, ironically with the same freedom of choice he gave to us. He holds them more accoutnable, however, for their actions, because they were created with the full knowledge of things both physical and spiritual, and have experienced the presence of God directly. And they were created as the servants of God. We were created as the children of God.

And you find no problem believing all that literally? Ok

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Bolded statements by jenksUh, no it's not.

Oh, forgot the last question, which is a good point.

You don't need to make people do something to prevent evil, you only have to stop them. If the God of the Bible actually existed, he would quite possibly be the most evil entity in the entire universe. No, because evil is more than jsut the actions one commits against another. Evil also lies within the thoughts. And no, God wouldn't be the most evil entity in the universe. The most evil being in the universe would be the being that is focused only on your eternal destruction. God does give everyone free will, because everyone, regardless of how much good or bad one does, possesses an inherent sin nature. And for God to punish some people and not others would not be just. Because evil is not limited to something like murder, or theft. God however, makes a provision we as Christians call grace, that's goodness. And of course, there is God's mercy, when he chooses not to punish us when in reality, every single person alive should be punished for something they have done. This thing we call the law is a natural provision for evil deeds, that tries to prevent and correct wrongs. It's entire purpose is to keep people in line, and from doing wrong. It in itself is based upon the flaws of man. It's exists because of the flaws of man. Think about it. If everyone did what was right and good, what purpose would the law serve? Only to establish certain boundaries. However, we wouldn't run into laws taht make murder and theft illegal. But that is where Jesus Christ came in. God provided a way for us to be able to experience the absolute love and mercy of God, through salvation.



It does, and is. Only because you cannot rationalize it or define it in your mind.



If 'God' created everything, then he is also the source of all evil. The real reason he doesn't stop evil, the most obvious reason, is because he doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]
God is not the source of evil. Evil is not something one "creates". Just like good cannot be "created". Everyone has the capacity to do evil and good, God excluded, because his nature is the complete opposite of evil. I alraedy explained the sources of evil. You cannot balem god for the evil that happens in the world anymore than you can blame the framers of government for the crime that exists today. People are given free will, because God loves everyone unconditionally. That does not mean he will prevent evil from happening in everyone's life.

And how would you have God stop or prevent evil?

By the way, if God does not exist, morality does not exist. Good and Evil do not exist. This concept of relative morality is an oxymoron. Morality is not realative. Morality is an ethics standard by which we live.

If God, as the eternal, self-sufficient, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent being, the essence of all that is good and perfect, who would therefore logically set the standard we call morality, did not exist, then everything we base our governments, our virtues, our justice system, our laws, our morals, falls apart.

If the highest being, higher than everyone and thing in existent, does not exist, and therefore does not set the moral standard, then with whom does the authority lie to define good and evil? All men are equal, that much we have been able to understand within the last century. And if all men, who differ and bicker, and fight, and kill, a help, and destroy, and give and steal, wish to establish their own personal ethics code, then the world, at least morally, falls into chaos. We are so quick to demand of God that he prevent the worng done towards us, but not the wrong we do towards others. But God, in his unconditional, nonpartisan, all-inclusive, divine love, chooses to give us the blessing of choice. So that we may choose whether to do good, and be the better for it, or to do evil, and enjoy the temporary gratification associated with it. It's very easy to look around and say, "There is no God." I'm sure most people would love to have their own personal god, one who required nothing of them, but who only allowed good to happen to them, and not evil. But as you know, if everyone had their own "patron god", as was believed by the Greeks, nothing would be different. But God is impartial. Imagine if you were to be placed in charge of every human being on the planet. And imagine if you had so high a standard of perfectness (not simple perfection), and you realized that no one, despite the "good" they did, regarded you in anyway. And your highest statute, your greatest rule, the most important aspect of your law was that the people you created, the people you watch over, the people within your responsibility regard you with the highest praise, in thankfulness for the good that you have shown toward them. And you realize that the people you created for the purpose of fellowship have turned their backs on you, because of the deceitfulness of a being who had already betrayed you. And you feel at once sorrow, anger, hope, and pity for the people you created. And according to your word, your standard, they must be separated from you, because good and evil cannot possibly exist in one perfect (complete) being. So you must execute judgment. However, you realize that man is not completely devoid of good, and that regardless of the prevailing evil, there is still a remnant of good. And in your love, you make a provision for man, that, in a time set by you, known by no man, you will provide a sacrifice to pay for the sins of the entire world. The judgment and sentence, death, still stands. However, you have provided a way so that all men may have the opportunity to be saved from condemnation by the death, the willful sacrifice of a perfect savior, God incarnate, who, in your omnipresence stooped to the level of a servant, unattractive, despised, and chose in your sovereignty to submit yourself to man, not because you are full of sorrow, but because you are full of love for your children. You give your life as ransom for thw entire world. Knowing this, that you have already given yourself, your "Son", as a willing sacrifice, you chosoe to show mercy to those who may not understand you, who may reject you at first. Instead of condemnation, you offer redemption, a chance to turn from sin, and to restore the relationship between god and man that existed in the beginning, a chance to be saved from the impeding death that awaits all those who choose to continue in wrongdoing. And although those who turn to you are still prone to commit sin, you have also empowered them to resist sin. You offer this opportunity to all men, regardless of what they have done, who they are, or their situation. And despite the fact that evil befalls everyone, thsoe who turn back to you and those who don't, you have not left them hopeless. You have given them a hope beyond the grave, that whosoever would trust in you, who would surrender everything to you, that you would not only bless them in this natural, current, temporal life, but that you would provide them with happiness, eternal life, and peace beyond the grave.

[jenks]

No, because evil is more than jsut the actions one commits against another. Evil also lies within the thoughts. And no, God wouldn't be the most evil entity in the universe. The most evil being in the universe would be the being that is focused only on your eternal destruction. God does give everyone free will, because everyone, regardless of how much good or bad one does, possesses an inherent sin nature. And for God to punish some people and not others would not be just. Because evil is not limited to something like murder, or theft. God however, makes a provision we as Christians call grace, that's goodness. And of course, there is God's mercy, when he chooses not to punish us when in reality, every single person alive should be punished for something they have done. This thing we call the law is a natural provision for evil deeds, that tries to prevent and correct wrongs. It's entire purpose is to keep people in line, and from doing wrong. It in itself is based upon the flaws of man. It's exists because of the flaws of man. Think about it. If everyone did what was right and good, what purpose would the law serve? Only to establish certain boundaries. However, we wouldn't run into laws taht make murder and theft illegal. But that is where Jesus Christ came in. God provided a way for us to be able to experience the absolute love and mercy of God, through salvation.

Do you know what omniscience means? If the God of the Bible existed, he would have known what Adam and Eve were going to do before they did it, he would have created the universe knowing full well all the evil things people were going to do to each other. He would be responsible for everything evil in the world, directly. Why did he create us like we are? Why not make us inherently good? Because like I say, if he existed, he'd be a sadist.

Only because you cannot rationalize it or define it in your mind.

It's wholly irrational, so of course I can't.

God is not the source of evil. Evil is not something one "creates". Just like good cannot be "created". Everyone has the capacity to do evil and good, God excluded, because his nature is the complete opposite of evil. I alraedy explained the sources of evil. You cannot balem god for the evil that happens in the world anymore than you can blame the framers of government for the crime that exists today. People are given free will, because God loves everyone unconditionally. That does not mean he will prevent evil from happening in everyone's life.

The Christian God is supposed to be the source of everything, he created the universe and everything in it, including evil. Again you're underestimating omniscience, everything that has and will happen 'God' would have known about the second he created the universe. He knew Hitler would execute millions, he also knew Ted Bundy would rape and murder all those women, yet he still did it. If it actually happened it would be the most evil act in the history of time itself, it's an indefensible action.

And how would you have God stop or prevent evil?

Don't create it in the first place.

By the way, if God does not exist, morality does not exist. Good and Evil do not exist. This concept of relative morality is an oxymoron. Morality is not realative. Morality is an ethics standard by which we live.

No, morality is relative.

If God, as the eternal, self-sufficient, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent being, the essence of all that is good and perfect, who would therefore logically set the standard we call morality, did not exist, then everything we base our governments, our virtues, our justice system, our laws, our morals, falls apart.

No it doesn't. You're deluded if you think the entire world derives morality from your imaginary friend. Hell, there are tribes out there that have probably never even heard of Christianity.

If the highest being, higher than everyone and thing in existent, does not exist, and therefore does not set the moral standard, then with whom does the authority lie to define good and evil?

There isn't one.

All men are equal, that much we have been able to understand within the last century. And if all men, who differ and bicker, and fight, and kill, a help, and destroy, and give and steal, wish to establish their own personal ethics code, then the world, at least morally, falls into chaos.

No it doesn't, and hasn't.

We are so quick to demand of God that he prevent the worng done towards us, but not the wrong we do towards others. But God, in his unconditional, nonpartisan, all-inclusive, divine love, chooses to give us the blessing of choice.

You are perhaps. I wouldn't bother.

So that we may choose whether to do good, and be the better for it, or to do evil, and enjoy the temporary gratification associated with it. It's very easy to look around and say, "There is no God."

You mean because of the complete lack of evidence for one?

I'm sure most people would love to have their own personal god, one who required nothing of them, but who only allowed good to happen to them, and not evil. But as you know, if everyone had their own "patron god", as was believed by the Greeks, nothing would be different.

I'm not sure what you mean, different how?

But God is impartial. Imagine if you were to be placed in charge of every human being on the planet. And imagine if you had so high a standard of perfectness (not simple perfection), and you realized that no one, despite the "good" they did, regarded you in anyway. And your highest statute, your greatest rule, the most important aspect of your law was that the people you created, the people you watch over, the people within your responsibility regard you with the highest praise, in thankfulness for the good that you have shown toward them. And you realize that the people you created for the purpose of fellowship have turned their backs on you, because of the deceitfulness of a being who had already betrayed you. And you feel at once sorrow, anger, hope, and pity for the people you created.

If he's omnipotent, that wouldn't happen. He would have known that were going to happen before it did.

And according to your word, your standard, they must be separated from you, because good and evil cannot possibly exist in one perfect (complete) being. So you must execute judgment. However, you realize that man is not completely devoid of good, and that regardless of the prevailing evil, there is still a remnant of good. And in your love, you make a provision for man, that, in a time set by you, known by no man, you will provide a sacrifice to pay for the sins of the entire world. The judgment and sentence, death, still stands. However, you have provided a way so that all men may have the opportunity to be saved from condemnation by the death, the willful sacrifice of a perfect savior, God incarnate, who, in your omnipresence stooped to the level of a servant, unattractive, despised, and chose in your sovereignty to submit yourself to man, not because you are full of sorrow, but because you are full of love for your children. You give your life as ransom for thw entire world. Knowing this, that you have already given yourself, your "Son", as a willing sacrifice, you chosoe to show mercy to those who may not understand you, who may reject you at first. Instead of condemnation, you offer redemption, a chance to turn from sin, and to restore the relationship between god and man that existed in the beginning, a chance to be saved from the impeding death that awaits all those who choose to continue in wrongdoing. And although those who turn to you are still prone to commit sin, you have also empowered them to resist sin. You offer this opportunity to all men, regardless of what they have done, who they are, or their situation. And despite the fact that evil befalls everyone, thsoe who turn back to you and those who don't, you have not left them hopeless. You have given them a hope beyond the grave, that whosoever would trust in you, who would surrender everything to you, that you would not only bless them in this natural, current, temporal life, but that you would provide them with happiness, eternal life, and peace beyond the grave.

I nice hypothetical situation that has no bearing on reality what so ever. You still don't seem to grasp omnipotence. If there were a God and he were omnipotent then he would know everything that happened, everything that is happening, and everything that will happen in the future. He would have also known this before he created the universe. The idea that a loving God would create us the way we are, and create such a barbaric reality for us is ridiculous.

[dalene]

I can so relate to that.

All the horrible things that have happened to me, and again in my life I got really close to someone, we were very close, almost boyfriend and girlfriend and then out of the blue I lose contact with her,and to find a month later after that, that she is having an engagement party. I only found out because I got a letter inviting me to come.

So if god exists and we take it literally then all this happens with his full knowledge, or even consent and for what? Sorry that's not any being I want to worship. And hence why to my family's horror I have disawoved myself from religion in all its forms.

I'm sorry for what happened to you cocopops...& for bee11, whose post you replied to. That sux.

Horrible things are just that - absolutely horrible things. People break your heart & break your bones. I have several family members who have been physically abused, mentally abused, verbally abused, sexually abused, suffered with their parents divorce, grieved after a loved one's death..I could go on & on...a complete stranger once told me that I should have been aborted - guess how much that hurts? A lot. I cried. I cried for a long time.

However, even after each of the things I mentioned above, I & those I know & was referring to still believe in & love God. It is possible. I don't blame Him for what people have chosen to do. I blame them for choosing it. If all the hate/bad things were stopped, we'd never have the capacity to know how good the good things feel. If we were never sad how would we know just how good happiness feels? If we were never rejected, how could we fathom how blissful being accepted feels? We would have monotone feelings. Every emotion would be neutral. Now that sux.

You know what? Bad things in life suck - but I will certainly take them so that I know how good the good really is. "Better to have loved & lost than to never have loved at all", right? It's not cliche for nothing. Here's what I want:

Revelation 21:* 1. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.* 2. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. * 3. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. * 4. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." * 5. * He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." * 6. He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. * 7. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

Bad stuff in life sux...but I will overcome.