Evil recognizing Evil...your thoughts...

[LordAnubis]

I think I see your point. But the other thing I think we have to remember here is that no healthy rational human beings alive on this earth are truly going be pure evil. Misinformed and mentally unstable people might still do evil actions without necessarily understanding exactly what it is that they are doing, but true evil requires a little bit more of an informed and free will rejection of the good. And that's where the whole selfish/pride part comes into play. Darth Vader was essentially lied to, corrupted, and used by someone who he had originally trusted to help him. And I believe Hitler had some of his own mental/sanity issues, yes? But no matter how evil they are, there's still always going to be that little part of them that can turn around and repent at the last minute if they really want to, such as we saw of Vader. It's just going to be much harder. And now I'm getting off topic, so I'll shut up.

Also, to excuse evil as "insanity" or "mental illness" is to dismiss its power. Evil may manifest itself to others as "deviance", but in fact, evil is...just evil. Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, the Son of Sam, the Boston Strangler...these were people who acted as agents of evil. Mental disease or defect? Sure, there's no doubt, but can we simply dismiss their actions as psychopathology? I think evil likes to hide (check my sig!!!) and disguise itself. We can call it mental illness, but no matter what label you put on it, it's still evil.

[Osiris-RA]

I think it depends on the type of evil. Now, Anubis/Emperor/Darth are pretty bad - but not Darth really IMO so I'll count him out. I'm not familiar with the Emperor so ... I can't say much on that either. Anubis, however is like the epitome of evil. Super Duper Uber Baddie. The little evil spirits may be capable of seriously freaking out earthlings and invading their bodies, controlling their minds, etc, but they can't, for instance, say, take over the universe as Anubis/Emperor/Darth are out to do. Their's is a mental evil. The Spirits, however, not being aliens but rather supernatural beings, often are capable of being forced out simply by a few incantations, Dzikers or Hail Mary's or whatever. They're not 'aliens' in a sense but creatures who have a certain power over the supernatural world. In other words, Anubis/Emperor/Darth may be powerful in controlling spaceships and mind things, but in the end, the supernatural world would win. Anubis etc can control - to an extent - the material, physical world, but the Spirits have control of the supernatural world, and methinks Supernatural world beats material world anytime.

...But who's to say Anubis isn't an evil spirit incarnated. Pehaps his body has been captured by a demon - or perhaps goa'ulds are born with an evil spirit in them.

Does anything i said make sense?

[Darth Buddha]

Can anyone cite a real life example of Darth Vader evil or Palaptine evil?

I'm not being a nit... I just can't think of one... and that bothers me.

[Osiris-RA]

Darth wasn't evil. He was just ...confused. World power or Intolerable coolness. How can one choose??

*cough* secretly admires him *cough*

[puddlejumper747]

Also, to excuse evil as "insanity" or "mental illness" is to dismiss its power. We can call it mental illness, but no matter what label you put on it, it's still evil.

Yes! Please don't misunderstand me! I completely agree with what you're saying. I'm not excusing the evil as "insanity" or "mental illness"....obviously, it's still evil no matter how you look at it. But it might lessen the actual guilt of the person commiting those evil actions....if they really are mentally unstable or insane. It's still evil, but the "evilness" action itself might not necessarily correspond perfectly with the "evilness" of the person doing so. If some evil person was insane, then he might not have honestly understood what he was doing, and therefore he might not be fully responsible for choosing to do them....but it certainly doesn't make his actions any less evil. You're definitely right. So does that make any more sense now, or did I just make it worse?

[Darth Buddha]

Darth wasn't evil. He was just ...confused. World power or Intolerable coolness. How can one choose??

*cough* secretly admires him *cough*

That's fine.

Still, an example. Let's say Anubis or Palaptine evil.

[Osiris-RA]

well ... Darth blew up some planet didn't he? *needs to watch StarWars again*

[Ancient 1]

Let me first say that while evil can recognize evil, it doesn't necessarily mean they share the same goals. I am C&P some edited versions of Evil as explained in an RP game. You will see how the different facets tend to lean in one direction; the means of getting there are far from being alike, and in some cases downright contradictory:

Good And Evil: Basically stated, the tenets of good are human rights, or in the case of RP Games, creature rights. Each creature is entitled to life, relative freedom, and the prospect of happiness. Cruelty and suffering are undesirable. Evil,on the other hand, does not concern itself with rights or happiness; purpose is the determinant.

Chaotic Evil: The major precepts of this alignment are freedom,
randomness, and woe. Laws and order, kindness, and good deeds are disdained. Life has no value. By promoting chaos and evil, those of this alignment hope to bring themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whims. These characters are the bane of all that is good and organized. Chaotic evil characters are motivated by the desire for personal gain and pleasure. They see absolutely nothing wrong with taking whatever they want by whatever means possible. Laws and governments are the tools of weaklings unable to fend for themselves. The strong have the right to take what they want, and the weak are there to be exploited. When chaotic evil characters band together, they are not motivated by a desire to cooperate, but rather to oppose powerful enemies. Such a group can be held together only by a strong leader capable of bullying his underlings into obedience. Since leadership is based on raw power, a leader is likely to be replaced at the first sign of weakness by anyone who can take his position away from him by any method. The chaotic evil creature holds that individual freedom and choice is important, and that other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if they cannot be held by the individuals through their own strength and merit. Thus, law and order tends to promote not individuals but groups, and groups suppress individual volition and success.

Editor's Note: This would seem to fit the Goa'uld to a tee...at least for the ones that are System Lords

Neutral Evil: The neutral evil creature views law and chaos as unnecessary considerations, for pure evil is all-in-all. Either might be used, but both are disdained as foolish clutter useless in eventually bringing maximum evilness to the world. Neutral evil characters are primarily concerned with themselves and their own advancement. They have no particular objection to working with others or, for that matter, going it on their own. Their only interest is in getting ahead. If there is a quick and easy way to gain a profit, whether it be legal, questionable, or obviously illegal, they take advantage of it. Although neutral evil characters do not have the every-man-for-himself attitude of chaotic characters, they have no qualms about betraying their friends and companions for personal gain. They typically base their allegiance on power and money, which makes them quite receptive to bribes. An unscrupulous mercenary, a common thief, and a double-crossing informer who betrays people to the authorities to protect and advance himself are typical examples of neutral evil characters. Similar to the neutral good alignment, that of neutral evil holds that neither groups nor individuals hove great meaning. This ethos holds that seeking to promote weal for all actually brings woe to the truly deserving. Natural forces which are meant to cull out the weak and stupid are artificially suppressed by so-called good, and the fittest are wrongfully held back, so whatever means are expedient can be used by the powerful to gain and maintain their dominance, without concern for anything.

Editor's Note: This would seem to be the case for Goa'uld underlings...anything to get ahead...or into a head.

Lawful Evil: Creatures of this alignment are great respecters of laws and strict order, but life, beauty, truth, freedom and the like are held as valueless, or at least scorned. By adhering to stringent discipline, those of lawful evil alignment hope to impose their yoke upon the world. These characters believe in using society and its laws to benefit themselves. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master and servant. To this end, lawful evil characters support laws and societies that protect their own concerns. If someone is hurt or suffers because of a law that benefits lawful evil characters, too bad. Lawful evil characters obey laws out of fear of punishment. Because they may be forced to honor an unfavorable contract or oath they have made, lawful evil characters are usually very careful about giving their word. Once given, they break their word only if they can find a way to do it legally, within the laws of the society. An iron-fisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant are examples of lawful evil beings. Obviously, all order is not good, nor are all laws beneficial. Lawful evil creatures consider order as the means by which each group is properly placed in the cosmos, from lowest to highest, strongest first, weakest last. Good is seen as an excuse to promote the mediocrity of the whole and suppress the better and more capable, while lawful evilness allows each group to structure itself and fix its place as compared to others, serving the stronger but being served by the weaker.

Editor's Note: Looks like, depending on your rank within the Goa'uld society, they can fit nicely into each of these categories.

So does this help, or just help to further confuse the issue?

[puddlejumper747]

Can anyone cite a real life example of Darth Vader evil or Palaptine evil?

You mean slaughtering entire villiages of tusken raiders, blowing up planets with millions of innocent people, choking/suffocating generals, and slowly torturing/killing other people with Force lightning doesn't count? Not to mention the upcoming Jedi/Sepratist massacres in Episode III....you have seen the new trailers, haven't you?

[Darth Buddha]

So does this help, or just help to further confuse the issue?

D&D fantasy definitions? Well, since I think they are wholly contrived, I don't think it does clarify things much. Those definitions were too simplistic even for wargaming once upon a time.

Lawful is very much like evil, dependant upon one's point of view. Different ethic, different concepts of evil & goot, chaos & law.

[LordAnubis]

well ... Darth blew up some planet didn't he? *needs to watch StarWars again*

Oh, come on, Miss O-Ra, are you going to hold that against him?

[LordAnubis]

Let me first say that while evil can recognize evil, it doesn't necessarily mean they share the same goals. I am C&P some edited versions of Evil as explained in an RP game. You will see how the different facets tend to lean in one direction; the means of getting there are far from being alike, and in some cases downright contradictory:

Good And Evil: Basically stated, the tenets of good are human rights, or in the case of RP Games, creature rights. Each creature is entitled to life, relative freedom, and the prospect of happiness. Cruelty and suffering are undesirable. Evil,on the other hand, does not concern itself with rights or happiness; purpose is the determinant.

Chaotic Evil: The major precepts of this alignment are freedom,
randomness, and woe. Laws and order, kindness, and good deeds are disdained. Life has no value. By promoting chaos and evil, those of this alignment hope to bring themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whims. These characters are the bane of all that is good and organized. Chaotic evil characters are motivated by the desire for personal gain and pleasure. They see absolutely nothing wrong with taking whatever they want by whatever means possible. Laws and governments are the tools of weaklings unable to fend for themselves. The strong have the right to take what they want, and the weak are there to be exploited. When chaotic evil characters band together, they are not motivated by a desire to cooperate, but rather to oppose powerful enemies. Such a group can be held together only by a strong leader capable of bullying his underlings into obedience. Since leadership is based on raw power, a leader is likely to be replaced at the first sign of weakness by anyone who can take his position away from him by any method. The chaotic evil creature holds that individual freedom and choice is important, and that other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if they cannot be held by the individuals through their own strength and merit. Thus, law and order tends to promote not individuals but groups, and groups suppress individual volition and success.

Editor's Note: This would seem to fit the Goa'uld to a tee...at least for the ones that are System Lords

Neutral Evil: The neutral evil creature views law and chaos as unnecessary considerations, for pure evil is all-in-all. Either might be used, but both are disdained as foolish clutter useless in eventually bringing maximum evilness to the world. Neutral evil characters are primarily concerned with themselves and their own advancement. They have no particular objection to working with others or, for that matter, going it on their own. Their only interest is in getting ahead. If there is a quick and easy way to gain a profit, whether it be legal, questionable, or obviously illegal, they take advantage of it. Although neutral evil characters do not have the every-man-for-himself attitude of chaotic characters, they have no qualms about betraying their friends and companions for personal gain. They typically base their allegiance on power and money, which makes them quite receptive to bribes. An unscrupulous mercenary, a common thief, and a double-crossing informer who betrays people to the authorities to protect and advance himself are typical examples of neutral evil characters. Similar to the neutral good alignment, that of neutral evil holds that neither groups nor individuals hove great meaning. This ethos holds that seeking to promote weal for all actually brings woe to the truly deserving. Natural forces which are meant to cull out the weak and stupid are artificially suppressed by so-called good, and the fittest are wrongfully held back, so whatever means are expedient can be used by the powerful to gain and maintain their dominance, without concern for anything.

Editor's Note: This would seem to be the case for Goa'uld underlings...anything to get ahead...or into a head.

Lawful Evil: Creatures of this alignment are great respecters of laws and strict order, but life, beauty, truth, freedom and the like are held as valueless, or at least scorned. By adhering to stringent discipline, those of lawful evil alignment hope to impose their yoke upon the world. These characters believe in using society and its laws to benefit themselves. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master and servant. To this end, lawful evil characters support laws and societies that protect their own concerns. If someone is hurt or suffers because of a law that benefits lawful evil characters, too bad. Lawful evil characters obey laws out of fear of punishment. Because they may be forced to honor an unfavorable contract or oath they have made, lawful evil characters are usually very careful about giving their word. Once given, they break their word only if they can find a way to do it legally, within the laws of the society. An iron-fisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant are examples of lawful evil beings. Obviously, all order is not good, nor are all laws beneficial. Lawful evil creatures consider order as the means by which each group is properly placed in the cosmos, from lowest to highest, strongest first, weakest last. Good is seen as an excuse to promote the mediocrity of the whole and suppress the better and more capable, while lawful evilness allows each group to structure itself and fix its place as compared to others, serving the stronger but being served by the weaker.

Editor's Note: Looks like, depending on your rank within the Goa'uld society, they can fit nicely into each of these categories.

So does this help, or just help to further confuse the issue?

I think this schema works well for Dungeons and Dragons, but in reality, things aren't so easily classified. For example, Hitler, being a good Austrian/German, believed in law and order; he believed in obedience and respect. He believed in the family unit and family values. He was a good Catholic and believed in Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit. He was a vegetarian and also believed in "environmental conservation". He did not like guns and did not approve of violence (believe it or not). In short, he subscribed to many "good" views. If you had to assign percentage points for good and evil, Hitler would score high on good points. Of course, that pesky Holocaust thing muddies the water a bit. The point is, in real life, it's not as clear as it is in RPGs.

Keeping with the thread, evil will recognize evil; that's a given. Let's go back to the Amityville scenario. If, let's say, Hitler, walked into that house, would the demons/ghosts recogize him as evil? Sure, but they wouldn't care because he's a mortal human being with no powers of any kind. Hitler would fear the spirits, but they would not fear him. His evilness would be irrelevant. However, if Emperor Palpatine, or Lord Anubis, walked into the house and encountered the evil spirits, what would happen. Someone, I think it was O-Ra, said that the spirits are supernatural and Anubis and the Emperor are "natural". Hmmm, last time I checked, a fully ascended 10,000 year-old snake-like being that could only take physical form in a special containment cloak is not natural, but is the epitome of supernatural. Also, an old (he's like, what, 300?) Sith Lord who can shoot lightening out of his hand, mask his evil from Master Yoda, and foresee the future is also not natural. Anubis and the Emperor are both supernatural beings despite their humble origins.

Given that, would the spirits understand that? I think they would. These evil spirits are either low level demons or evil spirits who were formerly human. Their powers are fairly limited. Anubis would be something out of their realm of understanding, so would the Emperor. Would they fear them? I don't know, but they would think twice about trying to scare them. Like I said, picture the scene. Anubis walks into the house. It's dark and spooky. He walks around a bit. The house is dark, but this is no problem for Anubis since he can see in the dark just as well as he can see in the light. His senses are fine-tuned; no sound escapes his powerful hearing. No movement escapes his nocturnal vision. Suddenly, he hears a deep, demonic voice shout: "GET OUT OR DIE!" Anubis looks around and sees a spectral image on the staircase; it's hooded and looks malevalent. Anubis turns and faces the apparition. It says: "LEAVE OR DIE!" Anubis uses his powers and says "Kneel before your God or be destroyed." The spirit, used to scaring mere humans, is now confused and perplexed. The thing it is seeing is not human, nor is it another ghost/spirit. It can see that Anubis is neither living or unliving; he is something that is unknown. It's that realization that fascinates me.

Two examples come to mind. In an Outer Limits episode, a young woman's car breaks down on a dark, rainy night. She walks several miles to an old castle and knocks on the door in hopes of finding a phone. This creepy old guy answers the door. He looks rather vampiric. He invites her in and they engage in idle chit-chat. The viewers can see where this is going; the old dude is a vampire and he clearly intends to dine on the young lass. Finally, he tells the girl, "It's unfortunate you found my castle, for now you'll be staying for dinner. I haven't dined on such beauty in a long time."

Instead of fear, the girl smiles and says, "Yes, my dear Count, you're right...I will be staying for dinner; however, I am not on the menu, YOU are!" Just then, we can see a full moon in the window, and she sprouts fangs and slitty pupils with yellow eyes. She turns into a werewolf and eyes him with hungry canine eyes. Her fangs are bigger; she is more powerful. We see the moon, but can hear a wolf howling in the night and then a man screaming in pain as the wolf tears him apart and eats him.

Evil was out-eviled. The vampire was cocky, arrogant, and overly confident. He encountered another evil creature and look what happened to him.

Another example, although it's not about evil, was in a book I read a few years back. Two guys were driving on this desolate road out in the middle of nowhere. They see lights in the sky. Next thing they know, they are on board a ship and little Roswell greys are probing them. The one guy is paralyzed and can't move; he's being probed. The other guy easily gets off the table, looks around, and smiles. He is neither frightened, nor confused. He walks over to one of the greys, who tries to immobilize him with some device, but it doesn't work. He picks up the grey, with one one arm, and lifts it up to his face. He crushes its neck with one squeeze and throws the body. He walks over to another and rips its head from its body. He starts to peel off a disguise; it turns out he's some kind of reptilian alien from a more powerful, more advanced race. He just happened to be abducted by greys who had no idea other aliens existed.

This is the area of realization and discovery that fascinates me. What do you think?

[puddlejumper747]

For example, Hitler, being a good Austrian/German, believed in law and order; he believed in obedience and respect. He believed in the family unit and family values. He was a good Catholic and believed in Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit. He was a vegetarian and also believed in "environmental conservation". He did not like guns and did not approve of violence (believe it or not). In short, he subscribed to many "good" views. If you had to assign percentage points for good and evil, Hitler would score high on good points.

WHAT? Pardon me, but where in the world are you getting THAT information from? I don't think any single one of those claims is even close to being true. Especially your claim that Hitler was a good Catholic. He was not. He was indeed a baptized Catholic, but he completely rejected his faith later on in life. He was actually a practicing pagan, which is the reason why the Church did not need to publicly excommunicate him. He had already publicly excommunicated himself. In fact, Hitler wanted to destroy the Catholic Church. He even refered to it as his "last and greatest enemy". I'll do some more research, but you might want to at least check out this article for right now. Because I'm really worried about where you might be getting information like that from.

[LordAnubis]

WHAT? Pardon me, but where in the world are you getting THAT information from? I don't think any single one of those claims is even close to being true. Especially your claim that Hitler was a good Catholic. He was not. He was indeed a baptized Catholic, but he completely rejected his faith later on in life. He was actually a practicing pagan, which is the reason why the Church did not need to publicly excommunicate him. He had already publicly excommunicated himself. In fact, Hitler wanted to destroy the Catholic Church. He even refered to it as his "last and greatest enemy". I'll do some more research, but you might want to at least check out this article for right now. Because I'm really worried about where you might be getting information like that from.

Dude, relax...I read it somewhere or something. I heard he was a devout Catholic. I'm sorry. I didn't know. I thought it was true or something. I'm sorry man!

[puddlejumper747]

Dude, relax...I read it somewhere or something. I heard he was a devout Catholic. I'm sorry. I didn't know. I thought it was true or something. I'm sorry man!

*whew* OK. Well....that makes more sense. I'm not offended. I understand where you're coming from now. But yeah....you usually have to check up on stuff like that, to make sure it's coming from a reliable historical source. And it should also be noted that Hitler did also murder his newly-wedded wife (and his pet dog too!) seconds before he shot himself -- so much for "family values"! I also posted a thread in another forum just to see how many of those claims hold up (because you got me all curious), and here's one of the responses I've gotten so far:

Well, he was a vegetarian, but I don't think he was a conservationist. He was DEFINITELY not Catholic, at least not when he became a Nazi; he was unapologetically Pagan.