Stargate: Phoenix ~ Tabletop RPG by Wyvern Gaming

[Gatefan1976]

It's my choice to use 2d20 because I feel the system is perfectly suitable for Stargate. You might think otherwise, but of course you can decide which system to use for your games. I didn't specifically mind 5e, also considering the original AEG version used the d20 system and 5e is "easier" (in quotes, because it was easier for me to understand the system compared to the older versions). But with my experience of Star Trek Adventures, I just feel that system is more suitable for the style of Stargate.

Why?
I'm trying to understand your thinking here Nick, not have a dig. What about a 2D20 system actually interests you?
I'll give you a comparison. D100 systems REALLY annoy the heck out of me because the probability at some point becomes either you are annoyingly pathetic at something (which annoys the player) or annoyingly good at something (which makes the life of a GM hard). The James Bond system by Victory Games handled this well by using "Quality values" where you could succeed in most things, but how well you succeeded was determined by a separate metric to just "pass/fail"
2D20 just gives too much randomness to a system.
What is your base DC for things?
What do you do when someone rolls a 20 and a 1?
How are you rating skills?
Do you have levels?
How are you determining your base stats, and what even are they?

Again, I'm not trying to be a douche here, I just want to know what in this system actually inspires you.
Some systems strike me by their complexity, some by their simplicity. Traveller, MegaTraveller and Bushido really interested me on how complex rules systems can be. D&D interested me because how simple it was. Bond interested me because it was a hybrid system. Warhammer Fantasy (first edition by GW, not the semi current one by Fantasy Flight) bored me because it was a pass/fail D100 system (which also BTW annoyed my in Call of Cthulhu 2nd/3rd ed edition, no matter how much of a Lovecraft fan I am)

I think there is enough brain wattage here to make something new, something unique, and I'd really love to do it.

[NickEast]

Why?
I'm trying to understand your thinking here Nick, not have a dig. What about a 2D20 system actually interests you?
I'll give you a comparison. D100 systems REALLY annoy the heck out of me because the probability at some point becomes either you are annoyingly pathetic at something (which annoys the player) or annoyingly good at something (which makes the life of a GM hard). The James Bond system by Victory Games handled this well by using "Quality values" where you could succeed in most things, but how well you succeeded was determined by a separate metric to just "pass/fail"
2D20 just gives too much randomness to a system.
What is your base DC for things?
What do you do when someone rolls a 20 and a 1?
How are you rating skills?
Do you have levels?
How are you determining your base stats, and what even are they?

Again, I'm not trying to be a douche here, I just want to know what in this system actually inspires you.
Some systems strike me by their complexity, some by their simplicity. Traveller, MegaTraveller and Bushido really interested me on how complex rules systems can be. D&D interested me because how simple it was. Bond interested me because it was a hybrid system. Warhammer Fantasy (first edition by GW, not the semi current one by Fantasy Flight) bored me because it was a pass/fail D100 system (which also BTW annoyed my in Call of Cthulhu 2nd/3rd ed edition, no matter how much of a Lovecraft fan I am)

I think there is enough brain wattage here to make something new, something unique, and I'd really love to do it.

Have you actually looked for the 2d20 system before criticizing it? Considering it seems you think I am designing it suggests you don't. I suggest taking a look at it, it's designed by Modiphius for a number of games, of which Star Trek Adventures is the one I use. I said why I liked it, because it fits Stargate, that's why. I'm not going to spend time trying to justify a personal decision to someone who clearly knows "everything", and there's plenty of information on the Net to understand the basics of the system.

The fact that you keep saying "I" and "me" when you talk about systems seems to make this all about you. But to put it bluntly, I don't care what you think because I'm not making this for you. You may not like it, plenty of people don't. But there are also plenty of people that don't like 5e, or D&D as a whole, or Pathfinder; just name anything and you'll find plenty of people that don't like it. No one likes everything. I feel like you haven't learned anything since last time we had this argument, but I apparently didn't either since I'm still arguing as well.

P.S.: You may have 30 years of experience with RPGs, but I have 23 years of experience with Stargate, I'm a writer, and have studied game design. And I was criticizing the design of the Stargate RPG, not the underlying system.

[Falcon Horus]

I have downloaded the core book and I have shared my feedback. But we are not allowed to talk about here, so I believe I have to skip this thread until it has not been published in August.

Sneaky...

[Platschu]

I have expressed myself wrong, my bad. I was tired. My sarcophagus was not working effectively. Hopefully the RPG core book will be published in August.

[Gatefan1976]

Have you actually looked for the 2d20 system before criticizing it? Considering it seems you think I am designing it suggests you don't. I suggest taking a look at it, it's designed by Modiphius for a number of games, of which Star Trek Adventures is the one I use. I said why I liked it, because it fits Stargate, that's why. I'm not going to spend time trying to justify a personal decision to someone who clearly knows "everything", and there's plenty of information on the Net to understand the basics of the system.

The fact that you keep saying "I" and "me" when you talk about systems seems to make this all about you. But to put it bluntly, I don't care what you think because I'm not making this for you. You may not like it, plenty of people don't. But there are also plenty of people that don't like 5e, or D&D as a whole, or Pathfinder; just name anything and you'll find plenty of people that don't like it. No one likes everything. I feel like you haven't learned anything since last time we had this argument, but I apparently didn't either since I'm still arguing as well.

P.S.: You may have 30 years of experience with RPGs, but I have 23 years of experience with Stargate, I'm a writer, and have studied game design. And I was criticizing the design of the Stargate RPG, not the underlying system.

All I am asking is what is it about the 2D20 system you find works "best" for Stargate, that's all.

[Falcon Horus]

I have expressed myself wrong, my bad. I was tired. My sarcophagus was not working effectively. Hopefully the RPG core book will be published in August.

Yeah...okay...

Nevertheless, I do want to read the rulebook. Out of curiosity, but I'll wait for it to be released before I do.
Heck, I might even get the game. I reckon it would look nice next to my D&D box.

[NickEast]

I found some interesting historical facts. I was discussing Actual Play podcasts (recordings of people playing RPGs) with some people, and I was reminded of a Ghostbusters RPG podcast that I really enjoyed. I then looked up the game again, and discovered it was originally developed by West End Games in 1986. Most here who are not literate in RPGs probably wouldn't know, but WEG was known for probably (one of) the most popular RPGs besides D&D: The Star Wars Roleplaying Game (the original one). It used a system known simply as "D6" (as it only uses six-sided dice). It turns out that the Ghostbusters RPG was the first game to use the system (or what would become the D6 System), which is what Star Wars was directly based on.

Material developed for the Star Wars RPG subsequently provided the foundations for the original Expanded Universe (including names like Twi'lek and Quarren).

Now what does that have to do with Stargate? Well, in 1998, WEG was working on a Stargate SG-1 RPG using the D6 System. Sadly, that same year, WEG went bankrupt so the game was never finished and released. However, the lead designer published his work in 1999, and the material can still be found (here).

Not entirely on-topic, but I think it's simply a cool part of history for both Stargate and RPGs and worth sharing.

[Platschu]

I have never heard about it, thank you!

I am a bit in split mode here, because I wish I haven't read the core book, so I could talk about my expectactions and hopes freely. But now even if I make a comment it can be felt I was influenced by the fact that I have done it. Maybe I should start an official "before core book" and "after core book" timeline. Anyway it has happened, I have tried to help and hopefully I can still do it in the future. I would strongly suggest everyone to participitate in the testing.

I love the lore facts and fragments in an RPG, because some of them are more detailed then a novel. You know when they describe different historical eras, gods, heroes of a certain fantasy worlds. Then I am surprised who has got the time and the energy to find out so many details what most of the players won't even learn anyway. To be honest with you guys, I don't care too much about the actual system or d6-d10-d20 dices as I believe the fight system should be secondary. If they can write a nice background, motivation, rules and obviously limitations for a character then it is worth of playing with him or her and interacting with other characters.

I really preferred the AEG system for such little informations as it has literally expanded the season 1-2-(3). I can only hope they plan to do such things with later seasons : naming the planets, the races, the events, the NPCs etc. Such little extras would mean a lot for casual RPG players, who just want to enjoy the stories and not necessarily the game system.

[Gatefan1976]

A copy of the rulebook for -many- games can be found here:
https://thetrove.net/Books/Star%20Wa...2840001%29.pdf

That's the original WEG D6 rulebook for Star wars, my copy is so battered it's not funny

[NickEast]

A copy of the rulebook for -many- games can be found here:
https://thetrove.net/Books/Star%20Wa...2840001%29.pdf

That's the original WEG D6 rulebook for Star wars, my copy is so battered it's not funny

Yeah, I use that site as a reference. But OpenD6 is completely free, and then there's the Star Wars RPG 30th Anniversary Edition published by Fantasy Flight Games (the current RPG license holder), which is a reprint of the first D6 edition. I'll probably want to buy that one eventually, to add to my collection.

I'm currently trying to create a bunch of characters using the unfinished D6 version, as I've found a version of the rules that were more fleshed out by someone, combined with D6 Space.

[Gatefan1976]

Yeah, I use that site as a reference. But OpenD6 is completely free, and then there's the Star Wars RPG 30th Anniversary Edition published by Fantasy Flight Games (the current RPG license holder), which is a reprint of the first D6 edition. I'll probably want to buy that one eventually, to add to my collection.

I'm currently trying to create a bunch of characters using the unfinished D6 version, as I've found a version of the rules that were more fleshed out by someone, combined with D6 Space.

I do like Fantasy Flight games, I like the unique dice coding they use. If you have never looked into it, Have a look at Malifaux. It's not a RPG but a TTWG that uses a deck of cards instead of dice using the suits and card values, very cool system.

[NickEast]

I do like Fantasy Flight games, I like the unique dice coding they use. If you have never looked into it, Have a look at Malifaux. It's not a RPG but a TTWG that uses a deck of cards instead of dice using the suits and card values, very cool system.

Well, that particular version of Star Wars is a reprint of the WEG D6 game. But I do think the narrative dice for FFG's Star Wars RPG are quite interesting. Unfortunately, I don't like the way they organized their books. They separated the different types of characters into separate standalone core rulebooks. If I wanted a varied game (like the original trilogy, with Luke, Leia, and Han), I'd need three separate books, each also rehashing the same core rules. So it would be quite expensive, let alone the fact that the oldest books are already out of print.

Also, one of the designers of the FFG Star Wars RPG also worked on designing the 2d20 system for Modiphius. He initially wanted to use similar narrative dice, but Modiphius decided not to, and I kind of agree with them. Because then you'd need to either buy specialized dice, or keep looking up conversions. The narrative dice are pretty cool, but I still prefer the regular dice.

As for why I think the 2d20 system works for Stargate, I will try to explain (I find explaining things like this extremely difficult, hence my hesitation).

1) It's classless. Multiple systems are that way of course, so it's not the biggest selling point, but it does help. Another part that helps is that the system uses two sets of six attributes; one representing the innate abilities, the other overall "professional" experience. This makes it easier to create multidisciplinary characters like Sam and Daniel. It's a personal preference, and I don't think it's better or worse than using classes, though I just think it's a bit more efficient and a lot more open.

2) Instead of rolling a single die, or a dice pool, and adding the results together with bonuses and penalties, you roll 2d20 (by default). To determine success, you select the two most appropriate attributes (one of each set) and add them together to create the Target Number. Any d20 rolled equal to or below that TN counts as a success, and you need to roll a number of successes equal to or higher than a regular DC (averaged at 2) to succeed. Rolling a 1 counts as two successes, a 20 causes a Complication (which can be invoked by the GM, or saved for later) though can still mean the task succeeds. You can buy or otherwise gain up to 3 additional dice (including an assist from another character, or a starship in the case of Star Trek Adventures). This is the gist of it, there are a couple of additional features, but that takes more time to explain. This is also a personal preference, but I just kind of like this system (I don't think it's better or worse than anything else, just different).

3) Like the D6 System, Modiphius slightly alters the 2d20 system to fit the source material, rather than trying to shoehorn the material to fit the system. This isn't exactly the fault of 5e, but most third-party games based on IPs seem to do that. I find this especially the case with classes (and multiclassing) as seen in the AEG Stargate RPG, and will undoubtedly happen with the new RPG as well (probably even worse since they focus entirely on Stargate Phoenix). A classless system, and in particular 2d20, is more open to adapt the system to fit the IP. But yet again, it's personal preference. Which is also why I want to try using the D6 System with Stargate.

4) The particular flavor of 2d20 used by Star Trek Adventures simply has the right mood and narrative and mechanical "power" that I think fits very well with Stargate.

All in all, it really is just my personal preference. I own a pretty hefty collection of books (mostly just PDFs, of Savage Worlds, Fate, D6, and a couple others, but I more recently bought the physical PHB and DMG of D&D 5e, and a series of books for Star Trek Adventures). I've read through them all, but I always struggled with trying to understand the rules and how to create a character, one of the biggest reasons I struggled to get started with RPGs in the first place. But since buying the physical D&D books, I grasp it a lot more (I find physical books easier and less distracting to read, since I'm not staring at a screen).

And when I got the core book for Star Trek, it just clicked. It's a thick book, but I just instantly grasped the rules, and while I haven't played it that extensively yet, short experiments that I did just made it "click". That's the real reason I want to run Stargate with it. This is the system that just fits me, you know? And Modiphius seems like a pretty cool company, based on what they're doing, and the fact that I got the PDFs of the books I bought for free. Sadly though, there isn't an OGL, and they are still thinking about publishing a generic rulebook. But since I feel STA is pretty close to the feel of Stargate, it shouldn't be too hard to homebrew (and this is a long term goal anyway).

[Gatefan1976]

Well, that particular version of Star Wars is a reprint of the WEG D6 game.

For Sure

But I do think the narrative dice for FFG's Star Wars RPG are quite interesting. Unfortunately, I don't like the way they organized their books. They separated the different types of characters into separate standalone core rulebooks. If I wanted a varied game (like the original trilogy, with Luke, Leia, and Han), I'd need three separate books, each also rehashing the same core rules. So it would be quite expensive, let alone the fact that the oldest books are already out of print.

They did the same thing with the Warhammer Fantasy RPG, I think I tossed about 5-600 bucks into it to get all the books and dice I wanted, plus they even split the books in half to cover two separate races sometimes. I don't disagree with your view here in the slightest, but game development runs on "splat books", just to pay for itself.

Also, one of the designers of the FFG Star Wars RPG also worked on designing the 2d20 system for Modiphius. He initially wanted to use similar narrative dice, but Modiphius decided not to, and I kind of agree with them. Because then you'd need to either buy specialized dice, or keep looking up conversions. The narrative dice are pretty cool, but I still prefer the regular dice.

FFG put out a good app some years ago to simulate the narrative dice, but I'll continue that point shortly.

As for why I think the 2d20 system works for Stargate, I will try to explain (I find explaining things like this extremely difficult, hence my hesitation).

1) It's classless. Multiple systems are that way of course, so it's not the biggest selling point, but it does help. Another part that helps is that the system uses two sets of six attributes; one representing the innate abilities, the other overall "professional" experience. This makes it easier to create multidisciplinary characters like Sam and Daniel. It's a personal preference, and I don't think it's better or worse than using classes, though I just think it's a bit more efficient and a lot more open.

No Drama's, I am also a fan of classless systems. I may have "cut my teeth" on 1st and 2nd ed D&D, but classless systems such as OWoD, Cyberpunk, James bond, Call of Cthulhu, The various Superhero Systems, Paranoia (you get the point ) always seemed far more organic. They may have provided "base roles" but no forced progression to "X point or level", or even skill set. I entirely agree with you on this. I think one of the main reasons D&D 3.0/3.5 succeeded so well is because the sheer volume of "splat books" allowed that level of customization, while still being money spinners. It's sad to a degree, but that's simple business. Look at the sheer quantity of books produced by the most "successful" RPG's. SW D6 produced 30-40, D&D produced literally hundreds over it's history.

2) Instead of rolling a single die, or a dice pool, and adding the results together with bonuses and penalties, you roll 2d20 (by default). To determine success, you select the two most appropriate attributes (one of each set) and add them together to create the Target Number. Any d20 rolled equal to or below that TN counts as a success, and you need to roll a number of successes equal to or higher than a regular DC (averaged at 2) to succeed. Rolling a 1 counts as two successes, a 20 causes a Complication (which can be invoked by the GM, or saved for later) though can still mean the task succeeds. You can buy or otherwise gain up to 3 additional dice (including an assist from another character, or a starship in the case of Star Trek Adventures). This is the gist of it, there are a couple of additional features, but that takes more time to explain. This is also a personal preference, but I just kind of like this system (I don't think it's better or worse than anything else, just different).

Nothing wrong with personal preference, you like the system and you explained it fine. I just wanted to know what you liked about it.

3) Like the D6 System, Modiphius slightly alters the 2d20 system to fit the source material, rather than trying to shoehorn the material to fit the system. This isn't exactly the fault of 5e, but most third-party games based on IPs seem to do that. I find this especially the case with classes (and multiclassing) as seen in the AEG Stargate RPG, and will undoubtedly happen with the new RPG as well (probably even worse since they focus entirely on Stargate Phoenix).

I blame ALOT on the stalling of games development on 3/3.5 D&D. The notion of the OGL has made it -too- easy for people to just pay royalties to WoTC and it has continued into 4th and 5th ed. I may love 3.0/3.5 but on a business and creative front, it has ALOT to answer for.

A classless system, and in particular 2d20, is more open to adapt the system to fit the IP. But yet again, it's personal preference. Which is also why I want to try using the D6 System with Stargate.

Personally, I think D6 would be better. You have so much customization available to you, you have base stats so different characters can be inherently better at things, then they get to add their skill and training on top of that. Even the race, templates and base stats are optional making it an extremely flexible classless system.
Again, personal perspective mate.

4) The particular flavor of 2d20 used by Star Trek Adventures simply has the right mood and narrative and mechanical "power" that I think fits very well with Stargate.

For sure.

All in all, it really is just my personal preference. I own a pretty hefty collection of books (mostly just PDFs, of Savage Worlds, Fate, D6, and a couple others, but I more recently bought the physical PHB and DMG of D&D 5e, and a series of books for Star Trek Adventures). I've read through them all, but I always struggled with trying to understand the rules and how to create a character, one of the biggest reasons I struggled to get started with RPGs in the first place. But since buying the physical D&D books, I grasp it a lot more (I find physical books easier and less distracting to read, since I'm not staring at a screen).

PDF's are -useful-, but give me a book anyday. If you struggle with character design, let me know and I will try to help out if I can.

And when I got the core book for Star Trek, it just clicked. It's a thick book, but I just instantly grasped the rules, and while I haven't played it that extensively yet, short experiments that I did just made it "click". That's the real reason I want to run Stargate with it. This is the system that just fits me, you know?

Oh yes, I entierely understand that feeling. I went through stages where I only wanted to play one particular system because it resonated with me. Don't get me wrong, the setting had to do it as well, but when they worked so well togeather, it was like a "match made in heaven".

And Modiphius seems like a pretty cool company, based on what they're doing, and the fact that I got the PDFs of the books I bought for free. Sadly though, there isn't an OGL

Grr (not at you)

, and they are still thinking about publishing a generic rulebook. But since I feel STA is pretty close to the feel of Stargate, it shouldn't be too hard to homebrew (and this is a long term goal anyway).

As I said before, we have the brains and experience to make that a reality. Just between the 2 of us there is a almost a combined 60 years of knowledge of games design, world building, character development, writing and games system knowledge.

[Gatefan1976]

I have never heard about it, thank you!

I am a bit in split mode here, because I wish I haven't read the core book, so I could talk about my expectactions and hopes freely. But now even if I make a comment it can be felt I was influenced by the fact that I have done it. Maybe I should start an official "before core book" and "after core book" timeline. Anyway it has happened, I have tried to help and hopefully I can still do it in the future. I would strongly suggest everyone to participitate in the testing.

I love the lore facts and fragments in an RPG, because some of them are more detailed then a novel. You know when they describe different historical eras, gods, heroes of a certain fantasy worlds. Then I am surprised who has got the time and the energy to find out so many details what most of the players won't even learn anyway. To be honest with you guys, I don't care too much about the actual system or d6-d10-d20 dices as I believe the fight system should be secondary. If they can write a nice background, motivation, rules and obviously limitations for a character then it is worth of playing with him or her and interacting with other characters.

I really preferred the AEG system for such little informations as it has literally expanded the season 1-2-(3). I can only hope they plan to do such things with later seasons : naming the planets, the races, the events, the NPCs etc. Such little extras would mean a lot for casual RPG players, who just want to enjoy the stories and not necessarily the game system.

The problem with this POV is that while -players- can create characters, it only represents how they function in the world. The SYSTEM is how the world interacts with the characters the players create. It's a two way street my friend and both are important. Should a base character be in a SG team?
Hell no, they are more like Cadet Haley who shows certain aptitudes towards specific skill sets.
This is the "level" approach of things.
Should your character be good at several things from the get go?
This is more the "open game" style of rules where you create the character you want to play, yet leave them room to get better, without limiting them to a set progression.

I absolutely understand your desire for the game to be "lore based", but who are the Characters in SG-1?
Are they newbs, or are they absolute professionals?, and how does that work for your -own- character?

As for wanting to explain the "lore" behind things, that's why splat books exist. They add in a few more rules or options, but the main task of them is exposition into a culture or section of the world that has been created. Basic D&D created tons of them (the Gazeteers) for places like Karimikos The far lands, Mongolian empires (one of my favorite characters from back then only drank Yaks blood or milk).
The splat books -allowed me- to make the character, but the system helped me -realise- that character.
That's why both are important.

[NickEast]

I have never heard about it, thank you!

I am a bit in split mode here, because I wish I haven't read the core book, so I could talk about my expectactions and hopes freely. But now even if I make a comment it can be felt I was influenced by the fact that I have done it. Maybe I should start an official "before core book" and "after core book" timeline. Anyway it has happened, I have tried to help and hopefully I can still do it in the future. I would strongly suggest everyone to participitate in the testing.

I love the lore facts and fragments in an RPG, because some of them are more detailed then a novel. You know when they describe different historical eras, gods, heroes of a certain fantasy worlds. Then I am surprised who has got the time and the energy to find out so many details what most of the players won't even learn anyway. To be honest with you guys, I don't care too much about the actual system or d6-d10-d20 dices as I believe the fight system should be secondary. If they can write a nice background, motivation, rules and obviously limitations for a character then it is worth of playing with him or her and interacting with other characters.

I really preferred the AEG system for such little informations as it has literally expanded the season 1-2-(3). I can only hope they plan to do such things with later seasons : naming the planets, the races, the events, the NPCs etc. Such little extras would mean a lot for casual RPG players, who just want to enjoy the stories and not necessarily the game system.

I agree with Gatefan above. Without the dice and the "system", there is no game. Then you're just basically collaboratively writing fan-fiction, not playing a roleplaying game. When the books explain what an RPG is, they essentially compare it to makebelieve. The difference? An RPG provides a framework, structure, to define a character's abilities and the world around them and therefore make it fair on everyone. The dice add a chance of failure, which provides for interesting storytelling. When you're just doing makebelieve, most people just want to create a hero that always wins and never fails at anything, which quickly gets boring. Then there's the GM who drives the story, providing twists and turns and surprises to the players while they respond to what's going on.

The "combat" system also doesn't mean it's all about "fighting", whether with magic, swords, or guns. While in D&D, the rules for combat are usually used while fighting, other systems may also use the same rules for social conflict, that is diplomacy, debates, and arguments. Systems like 2d20 combines the same mechanics for combat and social conflict, it just uses different abilities of course (which is another reason I like 2d20 for Stargate). And Stargate is pretty heavy on all sorts of conflicts.

Going back to 2d20, as I was reminded of something. The system also has rules for "Extended Tasks" and "Challenges". Extended Tasks are single tasks that require more work to perform, and cannot be overcome in a single attempt (paraphrased from the rulebook). Challenges are series of tasks or Extended Tasks that can work towards a single goal (either linearly, from A to B, or non-linearly, A, B, C in any order to get to D). Like Stargate, Star Trek puts less emphasis on fighting, but since combat and social conflict are based on the same rules, it's not complicated to do either.

I don't think combat has to come secondary, because Stargate is military sci-fi after all. But there is less emphasis on combat. And it's exactly this balance that I think makes 2d20 a suitable system. Not that 5e can't do social conflict, there just doesn't seem to be specific rules, similar to combat, that works for it, a GM usually has to improvise with abilities like Persuasion, Intimidation, and Deception, among others.