Asgard cloning

[Aesop]

I was working on some anthropology homework and my mind trailed off on to Stargate (naturally). I started wondering: why didn't the Asgard ever try to clone another species to transfer their consciousness into? Biologically, their bodies were breaking down further each time they cloned themselves. Now I understand that physically the size of their brains were larger than most humanoid species in the Stargate universe, but it seems like once they had discovered the genetic degradation in their own species, it would have been prudent to shift all of their resources into research and experimentation housing their consciousness within an entirely different body.

Loki was sort of doing that to an extent, but I don't think he was taking his research in the direction that I'm talking about. Nor am I talking about doing what the Goa'uld or Tok'ra do where they take an existing being and commandeer or share the body.

In the Halo franchise, there's talk about how the Artificial Intelligence constructs are made. Essentially they clone a brain and then fire an electrical pulse through it to artificially map it's neural pathways creation a virtual reconstruction of that brain. The reason they clone a persons brain in the first place is the process usually kills the organic brain. Now it's all much more complicated than my description of it, but my point is that the essence seemed like a possible line of thinking for the Asgard.

Perhaps they could've preserved their race more successfully if they considered somehow cloning humans (with permission, of course) but these clones would have a "blank slate" for the Asgard to transfer their consciousness into.

Are there any overt reasons that wouldn't work? Was it ever hinted at or touched on in the series? Do you think it was a viable option or would an Asgard's consciousness in a Human, Jaffa, Unas, etc brain essentially have the same effect as the Ancient Repository did on Jack?

[ChekovsWig]

Because in the end they were smug morons, there was plenty ancient tech laying around that they could have adapted, instead they panicked, saying they had run out of time and blew themselves up.

Wasnt Thor stuck in anubis mothership computer? They could have did that, i suppose

[Aesop]

Because in the end they were smug morons, there was plenty ancient tech laying around that they could have adapted, instead they panicked, saying they had run out of time and blew themselves up.

Wasnt Thor stuck in anubis mothership computer? They could have did that, i suppose

Something like that. When Anubis used that mind probe Thor basically turned it against him and infiltrated the ships network, I wasn't really clear on how that affected Thor though.

I don't know, the Asgard seemed to offer a lot of plot material and their destruction was almost a deus ex machina subplot (because they bequeathed all their technology to Earth). It's cool that they did, but I wish they could've stuck around and been involved in subsequent story lines, even in Atlantis and SGU.

I think it would be kind of cool to have more humanoid Asgard walking around, still functioning much in the same capacity that they had before but maybe a bit more nuanced given their different physiology (from their previous form). It could have even made for some interesting Asgard-Ancient-Earth plot lines, since in theory they could clone someone with the ATA gene and begin more aggressively studying Ancient technology and artifacts.

[jfarrell327]

Atlantis could've saved them by making replicator bodies... They could be totally immortal if they did and could've ended the replicators once and for all, since we know Dr. Weir or Replicator Weir was still alive and planning something once the Atlantis team and the 304's destroyed their planet in the Pegasus galaxy... Afterall that is how Replicator Weir came to be.

[thekillman]

Perhaps they could've preserved their race more successfully if they considered somehow cloning humans (with permission, of course) but these clones would have a "blank slate" for the Asgard to transfer their consciousness into.

Are there any overt reasons that wouldn't work? Was it ever hinted at or touched on in the series? Do you think it was a viable option or would an Asgard's consciousness in a Human, Jaffa, Unas, etc brain essentially have the same effect as the Ancient Repository did on Jack?

The asgard deemed human experimentation immoral.

Atlantis could've saved them by making replicator bodies... They could be totally immortal if they did and could've ended the replicators once and for all, since we know Dr. Weir or Replicator Weir was still alive and planning something once the Atlantis team and the 304's destroyed their planet in the Pegasus galaxy... Afterall that is how Replicator Weir came to be.

I don't think the Asgard would've liked becoming the one thing they've spent so long fighting.

Also, remember that the Asgard already extended their lives for thousands of years. Extending their lives once was what caused this trouble in the first place. Extending it through technology once more was likely not an option in their minds.

So in the end, could they? probably. Did they want to go through this whole thing again? probably not.

[Aesop]

The asgard deemed human experimentation immoral.

Well, sort of. What Loki was doing was illegal to the Asgard. But I'm saying they probably could've found a way to clone a human without cloning their mind and used that blank slate to upload their consciousness to. Or just genetically engineered human bodies to house their consciousness. Certainly they would've been healthier than the bodies they had been cloning for millennia.

[thekillman]

Well, sort of. What Loki was doing was illegal to the Asgard. But I'm saying they probably could've found a way to clone a human without cloning their mind and used that blank slate to upload their consciousness to. Or just genetically engineered human bodies to house their consciousness. Certainly they would've been healthier than the bodies they had been cloning for millennia.

I think the problem is in their brain. Their mind is just too big to fit in a human brain and thus they would experience, uhm, "Ancient upload" problems like in Fifth Race.

[Master Chief Jack O Niell]

What about geneticlly engineering a new species based on humans that had the ability to store a larger mind than what current humans do? It seems like that would have been a way for the Asgard to solve their problems without resorting to breaking their rules on experimeting with humans.

[Aesop]

I think the problem is in their brain. Their mind is just too big to fit in a human brain and thus they would experience, uhm, "Ancient upload" problems like in Fifth Race.

So the human brain is essentially too physically small to contain the Asgard consciousness?

I think the problem is in their brain. Their mind is just too big to fit in a human brain and thus they would experience, uhm, "Ancient upload" problems like in Fifth Race.

It would seem though that if they were working with a blank slate than it wouldn't really matter, the problem with the Ancient Repository seemed rooted in the fact that the Ancient knowledge overtook the human consciousness. So if the human consciousness isn't there to begin with than maybe it wouldn't be an issue?

What about geneticlly engineering a new species based on humans that had the ability to store a larger mind than what current humans do? It seems like that would have been a way for the Asgard to solve their problems without resorting to breaking their rules on experimeting with humans.

That's basically what I'm saying. I mean, the Ancients were physically humanoid and their intelligence was probably higher than the Asgard. So either the Tau'ri brain has the potential to house the Asgard consciousness or there's a mutation the Asgard could implement that would make it so. Or at least it seems like a possibility.

[thekillman]

So the human brain is essentially too physically small to contain the Asgard consciousness?



It would seem though that if they were working with a blank slate than it wouldn't really matter, the problem with the Ancient Repository seemed rooted in the fact that the Ancient knowledge overtook the human consciousness. So if the human consciousness isn't there to begin with than maybe it wouldn't be an issue?



That's basically what I'm saying. I mean, the Ancients were physically humanoid and their intelligence was probably higher than the Asgard. So either the Tau'ri brain has the potential to house the Asgard consciousness or there's a mutation the Asgard could implement that would make it so. Or at least it seems like a possibility.

1: that seems to be the case.

2: From what i gather, the brains essentially burn out, unable to cope with the extreme level of activity.

3: That would be a solution path. However, the asgard were limited in resources, and from "unending" we gather that the situation was much more dire than we initially thought. I think the Asgard were simply caught between too many fires: the replicators and Goa'uld likely destroyed too much old Asgard stuff to fall back on, and the replicators destroyed too much research. By the time the situation was stabilized, the Asgard likely had to bet on only one solution and chose to repair their old bodies.

Do we know how many asgard were left? It seemed like a couple of hundred to a few thousand, max?

[Master Chief Jack O Niell]

How many neurons would a race like the asgard need to not burn out? Humans have upto 23 billion in the cerbal cortex compared to upto 6.2 billion for chimps.

[McAvoy]

The Asgard could have genetically engineered a human-asgard hybrid. Basically an asgard sized brain in a human body.

I think they were trying to save their original race and got stuck on that. It seems to fit that they can't seem to look to the obvious. They are smart they are dumb.

[thekillman]

I think they were trying to save their original race and got stuck on that. It seems to fit that they can't seem to look to the obvious. They are smart they are dumb.

I think they didn't have the resources to follow multiple paths. they bet on one, and lost the bet. After all, they were beaten pretty close to extinction and their planets were beaten to pulp. Maybe if the Asgard were freed of their replicator threat a few decades earlier, but their annihilation had simply progressed too far to turn it around.

Do note that the Lost Tribe did fix their problem by performing forbidden research on humans. Research done over 10K years with no big war to fight. I wonder how much time the asgard would've needed to fix themselves.

[jestermon]

I never really understood why cloning would have that copy of a copy of a copy problem.

If you clone something it's an exact copy of that thing, plenty of animals on earth have been asexually reproducing that way for millions of years.

Now I understand if the body physically ages past the point of use, is injured, or they just decide to go with a new model, but aside from that it doesn't make any sense except for a plot point.

[thekillman]

I never really understood why cloning would have that copy of a copy of a copy problem.

If you clone something it's an exact copy of that thing, plenty of animals on earth have been asexually reproducing that way for millions of years.

Now I understand if the body physically ages past the point of use, is injured, or they just decide to go with a new model, but aside from that it doesn't make any sense except for a plot point.

The short answer is that humans (and many other animals) never developed the need to guard against aging. The natural lifecycle of humans is 30-40 years. Long enough for someone to get kids ( at age 15), and then guard their grandkids. This is why people become wrecks as they age beyond that: there was never an evolutionary need to live beyond that age, and we haven't been growing old long enough to ensure evolution is taking effect.

The long answer is that our telomeres (which contain our DNA) have caps, and those caps erode with every cell splitting. Telomerase (an enzyme) can fix that. Asexually reproducing organisms have evolved to no longer have such aging weaknesses. However, no copying mechanism is perfect so even asexually reproducing organisms have genetic variance (and defaults). Cloning is the same. Eventually faults build up.

In the case of the Asgard, however, it seems that they made their own modifications to their bodies. So you can't have a template for all clones: it would eventually be obsolete. We also don't know if the asgard made personal modifications.

In the end, i would say that we don't know a whole lot about the entire problem. I think a LOT has been left out regarding the exact circumstances.