How powerful is the Stargate universe?

[firstarchon]

A deathstar is to a hiveship like a hiveship is to an ant.

Really, "regardless of size" is an empty statement.
Where exactly does "inferior shields and weapons" come from? The deathstar's very existence makes SG tech childs play.
.

with the horizon and the missile from voyager (which are by no means the upper limit to the yields achievable) the destruction of a real moon would be simple.
the death star has no shields for defense the only way it can resist would be armor which would be inadequate against the kind of energy in these explosions.

A deathstar is to a hiveship like a hiveship is to an ant.
The scales of ST and SG simply do not even remotely match up with SW. Star wars had a THOUSAND worlds walk away from the Republic yet it was still the major force.

in order to be a threat even in force you have to have a weapons platform capable of damaging the enemy which outside of the GG and the death stars main cannon SW cannot do.

A deathstar is to a hiveship like a hiveship is to an ant.
I also don't get where the "superior weapons and shields" comes from. Again the very existence of a Death Star (along with the fact that they built one in 2 years) shows that industrially and technologically SW is far, far ahead. Also ST "hyperdrive antimatter missiles" won't be able to hit SW ships. SW hyperdrives are easily on par with SG hyperdrives.

oh SW built that deaths star in 2 years? well guess what? SG could build a invisible 100 gigaton missile with an Asgard hyper drive would take far less than 2 years...
oh SW has 100 star destroyers to sg's one x-303? ok if they LET them blast at it with blasters for a few decades you might scratch the paint...but they won't... star destroyers would be carved like a turkey by Asgard plasma beams (or just get mark IX's beamed aboard or have the star they are around go nova)

A deathstar is to a hiveship like a hiveship is to an ant.
SW hyperdrives are easily on par with SG hyperdrives.

yes a ".5 past light speed" ship which shouldn't be capable of interstellar travel at all (and is known for its speed) is as fast as ships which travel intergalactic distances with no trouble.



ps...where is all this extra SW cannon coming from their was no Galaxy gun in the movies. afik they have blasters which are bolts of heated ozone, missiles and deathstar beams... the death star had the ability to be almost impervious to all attacks thrown at it just because it was a strong metal...which means weapons of no consequence or the death-star is made of the magic invincible metal from the avengers...

[Gatefan1976]

I think the strawman from Oz wants his stuffing back.

[darth_timon]

with the horizon and the missile from voyager (which are by no means the upper limit to the yields achievable) the destruction of a real moon would be simple.
the death star has no shields for defense the only way it can resist would be armor which would be inadequate against the kind of energy in these explosions.

Even 100 Horizon nukes won't destroy a moon (unless we're talking a really tiny moon). I'm not sure where you get the idea the Death Star has no shields and the armour is several KM thick and designed to help defend against more powerful weaponry than the Horizon nukes.

in order to be a threat even in force you have to have a weapons platform capable of damaging the enemy which outside of the GG and the death stars main cannon SW cannot do.

From the way in which Star Destroyers vaporise asteroids in TESB, ISDs very much have the firepower to threaten Hataks and Hives.

oh SW built that deaths star in 2 years? well guess what? SG could build a invisible 100 gigaton missile with an Asgard hyper drive would take far less than 2 years...
oh SW has 100 star destroyers to sg's one x-303? ok if they LET them blast at it with blasters for a few decades you might scratch the paint...but they won't... star destroyers would be carved like a turkey by Asgard plasma beams (or just get mark IX's beamed aboard or have the star they are around go nova)

The feat of building moon-sized stations that can travel ftl and blow up planets with a single shot is, whether it takes 2 years or twenty, a far more impressive feat of engineering.

I would love to know how you conclude ISD firepower is so low.

yes a ".5 past light speed" ship which shouldn't be capable of interstellar travel at all (and is known for its speed) is as fast as ships which travel intergalactic distances with no trouble.

So obviously Han isn't speaking literally.

ps...where is all this extra SW cannon coming from their was no Galaxy gun in the movies. afik they have blasters which are bolts of heated ozone, missiles and deathstar beams... the death star had the ability to be almost impervious to all attacks thrown at it just because it was a strong metal...which means weapons of no consequence or the death-star is made of the magic invincible metal from the avengers...

The precise properties of turbolasers aren't known, but their effect on dense asteroids is. Death Star armour is more than just strong metal and it has shields too.

[thekillman]

Even 100 Horizon nukes won't destroy a moon (unless we're talking a really tiny moon). I'm not sure where you get the idea the Death Star has no shields and the armour is several KM thick and designed to help defend against more powerful weaponry than the Horizon nukes.

The first deathstar had none. It also wasn't intended as a warship. Episode IV specifically states (i recently watched all 6 movies cause most of it had faded to background memory) that the Death Star was built to rule the galaxy through fear. It's inability to deal with a small squadron of fighters was an intentional oversight, as it was deemed inconceivable that it would make any impact whatsoever.

the Death Star II fixed these problems. It was shielded by a facility on Endor. Considering the size of the facility and the industry required to run it, a Death Star can easily fit dozens of such generators and still comfortably do everything else. It could also fire at a significant speed. Oh and there's every reason to believe it was drawn out by the emperor, considering he was on the death star II constantly provoking Luke into going DarkSide. Had the emperor not used the threat of his friends to go darkside, it would almost certainly have been over a LOT sooner.

From the way in which Star Destroyers vaporise asteroids in TESB, ISDs very much have the firepower to threaten Hataks and Hives.

I would like to point out "gauntlet" but also the Tollan ion cannons, asgard weapons and Drones. There's good reason to believe that SG weapons do not actually pack much of a punch, but rather utilize clever technology to defeat shields.

The feat of building moon-sized stations that can travel ftl and blow up planets with a single shot is, whether it takes 2 years or twenty, a far more impressive feat of engineering.

A not-so-unimportant part of this: Atlantis needs 3 ZPM's to go FTL. Depending on who you ask, the Death Star is some 400 km in radius. Atlantis is maybe 3km in radius. This isn't linear, but a cubic relation. Meaning atlantis isn't 400/3 = 133x smaller but rather 133^3 x smaller. Oh and it doesn't need a ZPM to travel across the galaxy in the blink of an eye.

So obviously Han isn't speaking literally.

He obviously isn't, considering that in Episode V the empire proclaims that, after losing sight of Han for maybe a few minutes, "they can be halfway across the galaxy by now". In the prequels, Obiwan travels a significant distance in two weeks. It's hard to make out an exact distance, but it looks to be about from one end of the core to the other.

Every other instance of a trip going insanely fast beats Han making an erroneous comment once. If you consider they live in a world with a global city and have thousands of worlds allied in a massive Republic, i don't think claims about speed or distance carry much meaning in their world. In our own world, a story about one sad puppy supersedes thousands of deaths because it's a manageable number. In theirs, claiming you own a hundred square kilometers of land is a silly as claiming you own two square inches here.

The precise properties of turbolasers aren't known, but their effect on dense asteroids is. Death Star armour is more than just strong metal and it has shields too.

Even that is of no consequence. The Deathstar itself is enough proof to carry the "SW weapons are superior" ad infinitum. A battlestation that can be mistaken for a small moon needs insanely powerful far-beyond-current-tech materials just to not-buckle under it's own weight. Then that station has a reactor that can move this thing around. And power a weapon that blows up a planet while performing it's every function, meaning that it just throws ZPM's out the window and probably more. they can build this in 2 years. That means that in 2 years, they could build the rough equivalent of 2 352 637 Atlantes. Considering the towers only make up a tiny portion of it's volume (most of it is in the base) and considering i treated it like a sphere, the real number is easily 3-6 times that.

If they can scale that down and replicate it even a bit, (and they could, considering the reactor and weapon do not even make up a significant part of the station), you get a firepower that FAR exceeds anything Stargate or Star Trek has.


With that kind of industry, pumping out things like Star Destroyers or any ship in the Stargate universe is an afternoon job.

[Gatefan1976]

Can I have a F-302?
That's all I want, nothing fancy

[thekillman]

So even if a BC-304 just went one on one with a much much larger Star Destroyer, the nukes would have to take down the shields first, meanwhile those massive turbolasor canons would make mince meat of the 304's shields (which bleed through and cause computers to spark out of control).

It depends a bit, but there's no reason to believe that a 1-on-1 scenario with a 304 vs a Stardestroyer would even happen. It's far likelier to be dozens of Star Destroyers per 304. Assuming that the Empire is conservative and doesn't send hundreds.

The only question is how strong are Ori/Asgard shields? Surely not strong enough to withstand the might of a death star, however.

This is difficult to answer because Stargate energy weapons and stargate shields seem to rely on fancytech to ensure they're stronger than they appear. For instance, a Tollan Ion Cannon is powerful enough to one-shot a Ha'tak, but with minor shield upgrades it's useless. To go from one-shotting to no effect, it means that a shield would have to be 100x stronger at LEAST. But anubis' ships aren't. Same for the Beliskner firing at the ha'tak.

same for the disparity between SG weapons versus planets and SG weapons versus shields.


Lastly, while Naquahdah is powerful, this "hypermatter" from Star Wars is superior.

[firstarchon]

for anything SW has to mater they would need a defense against the mantle devise and defense against the numerous stealth technologies available in the SG universe. also a ship full of stormtroopers are strategically facing off against carter and rodney.
how long until the death star is facing a mark IX-phase shifted missile from a x-302 which can get to its core regardless of where it hits?

ST and SG have time travel and could just wipe out SW before formation of the republic. and if replicators are involved in this fight it rapidly becomes a joke. replicator projectile crashes through shields into the hull and eats the ship with no meaningful intervention.


sg doesn't seem to rely on fancy tech to make them seem stronger rather it seems the writers will water down the strength of previous tech to make the need for finding that next ancient device that much more important. I think they wanted to back away from how advanced they mad the tollan because they had made them OP even at the end of SGA building a stargate wouldn't be possible

another consideration is how fast tech will spread between the 2 universes (sg1 has "acquired" almost everything they have and would do the same to anything of use the SW has) and how fast they will realize what can be done with tech they are already using/ have. if they make nanites build 304's they would have far more of them quickly also mark IX is probably nowhere near the highest yield you could achieve and it would make sense for SG to have weapons at least 1000 times stronger as soon as they felt they needed them.

SG is really good a surgical strikes to steal tech and ships. imagine what would happen if instead of obiwan and luke it was sg1 on the death star. my guess is they would be flying it to a tok'ra planet to show it off within a few hours.just seal all the doors and shoot vader in the face with a p90.

also keep in mind anubus' planet destroying ship was much smaller than the deathstar and only required 10 stones (which were likely ancient in origin and almost certainly less powerful than zpm's)

[darth_timon]

for anything SW has to mater they would need a defense against the mantle devise and defense against the numerous stealth technologies available in the SG universe. also a ship full of stormtroopers are strategically facing off against carter and rodney.

How many of these different devices can the SGverse bring to bear at any one time, and will they work against Imperial jamming and defences?

A 304 for example, is not equipped with Tollan phase missiles, so this advantage means nothing. Having Carter or Mckay aboard means nothing if the ISD outguns the 304 by at least one order of magnitude.

how long until the death star is facing a mark IX-phase shifted missile from a x-302 which can get to its core regardless of where it hits?

Assuming a 302 can be fitted with such missiles and that such missiles can be fitted with phase-shifting tech, what makes you think they can get by Imperial jamming and defences?

ST and SG have time travel and could just wipe out SW before formation of the republic. and if replicators are involved in this fight it rapidly becomes a joke. replicator projectile crashes through shields into the hull and eats the ship with no meaningful intervention.

Time travel is a cop out. It's an admission that the battle cannot be won in a direct fight. Replicators are not invincible and would likely get overwhelmed by Imperial firepower before they could get close.

sg doesn't seem to rely on fancy tech to make them seem stronger rather it seems the writers will water down the strength of previous tech to make the need for finding that next ancient device that much more important. I think they wanted to back away from how advanced they mad the tollan because they had made them OP even at the end of SGA building a stargate wouldn't be possible

There is evidence (there's a huge thread on SG vs ST somewhere) that Hataks have triple digit megaton firepower (or even single digit gigaton firepower) per shot. Even these high end figures pale before the Empire.

another consideration is how fast tech will spread between the 2 universes (sg1 has "acquired" almost everything they have and would do the same to anything of use the SW has) and how fast they will realize what can be done with tech they are already using/ have. if they make nanites build 304's they would have far more of them quickly also mark IX is probably nowhere near the highest yield you could achieve and it would make sense for SG to have weapons at least 1000 times stronger as soon as they felt they needed them.

I have no idea how you conclude any of this. Technology in the Gateverse is pretty similar (derived from Ancient tech) and even then SG1 needed help from the Asgard to properly intergrate it all into their projects ( and it took them years).

SW tech is of an entirely different base and a whole different ball game.

SG is really good a surgical strikes to steal tech and ships. imagine what would happen if instead of obiwan and luke it was sg1 on the death star. my guess is they would be flying it to a tok'ra planet to show it off within a few hours.just seal all the doors and shoot vader in the face with a p90.

Assuming SG1 would even be able to get near the Death Star, do you honestly believe they'd be able to hijack it so easily? There are tens of thousands of Storm troopers on board (at least) and officers who are far more aquainted with the tech than SG1 would be. And shoot Vader in the face??? You are aware he's a powerful Sith Lord that would Force choke or throw them around right?

also keep in mind anubus' planet destroying ship was much smaller than the deathstar and only required 10 stones (which were likely ancient in origin and almost certainly less powerful than zpm's)

This device did not destroy the planet - it set off a reaction in the gate (therefore not through firepower) that destroyed the surface.

[Gatefan1976]

How many of these different devices can the SGverse bring to bear at any one time, and will they work against Imperial jamming and defences?

A 304 for example, is not equipped with Tollan phase missiles, so this advantage means nothing. Having Carter or Mckay aboard means nothing if the ISD outguns the 304 by at least one order of magnitude.



Assuming a 302 can be fitted with such missiles and that such missiles can be fitted with phase-shifting tech, what makes you think they can get by Imperial jamming and defences?



Time travel is a cop out. It's an admission that the battle cannot be won in a direct fight. Replicators are not invincible and would likely get overwhelmed by Imperial firepower before they could get close.



There is evidence (there's a huge thread on SG vs ST somewhere) that Hataks have triple digit megaton firepower (or even single digit gigaton firepower) per shot. Even these high end figures pale before the Empire.



I have no idea how you conclude any of this. Technology in the Gateverse is pretty similar (derived from Ancient tech) and even then SG1 needed help from the Asgard to properly intergrate it all into their projects ( and it took them years).

SW tech is of an entirely different base and a whole different ball game.



Assuming SG1 would even be able to get near the Death Star, do you honestly believe they'd be able to hijack it so easily? There are tens of thousands of Storm troopers on board (at least) and officers who are far more aquainted with the tech than SG1 would be. And shoot Vader in the face??? You are aware he's a powerful Sith Lord that would Force choke or throw them around right?



This device did not destroy the planet - it set off a reaction in the gate (therefore not through firepower) that destroyed the surface.

I did say something about the scarecrow earlier, didn't I?...............

[darth_timon]

I did say something about the scarecrow earlier, didn't I?...............

Eh?

[firstarchon]

How many of these different devices can the SGverse bring to bear at any one time, and will they work against Imperial jamming and defences?

A 304 for example, is not equipped with Tollan phase missiles, so this advantage means nothing. Having Carter or Mckay aboard means nothing if the ISD outguns the 304 by at least one order of magnitude.

I'm talking about the ancient phase shift devices and the sodan cloaks which are supposed to operate in a similar fashion the tauri have the tech they just have never put the 2 devices together before.

Assuming a 302 can be fitted with such missiles and that such missiles can be fitted with phase-shifting tech, what makes you think they can get by Imperial jamming and defences?

they have never encountered beaming tech or phase shift tech and wouldn't have anything already built to handle it. you seem to be assuming that stormtroopers would be jury rig a anti phaseshift/beam shield or would even know why they're ships were suddenly exploding

Time travel is a cop out. It's an admission that the battle cannot be won in a direct fight. Replicators are not invincible and would likely get overwhelmed by Imperial firepower before they could get close.

on the contrary from what i remember of star wars (not including the deathstar) they have no weapons that approach even a significant fraction of the sg weapons.

There is evidence (there's a huge thread on SG vs ST somewhere) that Hataks have triple digit megaton firepower (or even single digit gigaton firepower) per shot. Even these high end figures pale before the Empire.

all i remember is the death star laser and blasters which if they're slow enough to deflect with a light saber they're slow enough to dodge in any realistic space battle.[/QUOTE]

I have no idea how you conclude any of this. Technology in the Gateverse is pretty similar (derived from Ancient tech) and even then SG1 needed help from the Asgard to properly intergrate it all into their projects ( and it took them years).

almost all tauri tech has been stolen or scavenged thats basically what they do. and there has been very little integration of the various tech they have aquired. its so new no one has said "hey put the cloaking devise/phase shift/hyperdrive on the missile" yet wars tend to make such thoughts more likely.

Assuming SG1 would even be able to get near the Death Star,

something that luke mangaged to do without any difficulty whatsoever

do you honestly believe they'd be able to hijack it so easily?

based on the storm troopers proficiency with blasters and that you can seal SW doors by shooting the controls yes i do (especially when you consider that its sg1's job to figure out alien tech and they would just have to shut down lifesuport)

There are tens of thousands of Storm troopers on board (at least) and officers who are far more aquainted with the tech than SG1 would be.

didn't help cronos

And shoot Vader in the face??? You are aware he's a powerful Sith Lord that would Force choke or throw them around right?

with a human gun instead of a blaster it would be less absorb the shots with your hand and more "dead before you hear the gunshot" the movies would have ended a lot differently if han had used a p90 instead of one of those ridiculous blasters...maybe the other universes would die of laughter when they see that SW uses sub sonic weapons for anything....the whole story of SW failed when they added the space ninjas

[aretood2]

The problem with SG is the plot. The plot dictated everything instead of working within set constraints. It's even hard to tell how certain in universe scenarios would play out. A Hatak VS a Hive? It depends, which episodes' versions of the two ships are we talking about?

Star Wars is a bit more streamlined thus it makes things easier. An MC80 Mon Calamari Cruiser (Goodness gracious....I've never felt dorkier) is not good against an Imperial Star Destroyer II, but can put up a fight against a Victory Star Destroyer regardless which game/comic/movie/book you are talking about.

Star Trek falls in between...Unless it's the borg or something.

[thekillman]

they have never encountered beaming tech or phase shift tech and wouldn't have anything already built to handle it. you seem to be assuming that stormtroopers would be jury rig a anti phaseshift/beam shield or would even know why they're ships were suddenly exploding

These technologies were designed based upon some form of natural effect or complex handling of matter. Star Wars has no concept of these technologies or the phenomena they're built upon. That can mean two things:

*stargate tech that relies on things not present in SW (IE phasing, cloaking, teleporting) doesn't work

or:

* star wars gets these effects and can duplicate the technology. In terms of energy handling they're on par with the Ancients so it's not like they couldn't figure that out.

It's easy to say SW can't defend against it. Dr Who has the TARDIS which is bigger on the inside than the outside. Stargate has no technological concept or scientific basis for this. So either a TARDIS works in Stargate (and given it's technological complexity -such that only Timelords use it- it's far beyond Earth) or it wouldn't.

I could come up with "how does The Matrix compare to Stargate". Well Stargate doesn't have a premise of everything being a computer simulation. Neo's realitybending powers have no foothold in our universe. Unless we assume it IS part of the matrix and so he does. But people from the Stargate Universe could then be unplugged.

also keep in mind anubus' planet destroying ship was much smaller than the deathstar and only required 10 stones (which were likely ancient in origin and almost certainly less powerful than zpm's)

The weapon did not destroy the planet.

[firstarchon]

the only way blaster bolts can be blocked is if theyre subsonic and move at speeds closer to arrows than bullets. you can't say a group is on par with the ancients when they're basic infantry weapon is less effective than a musket. in starwars I never saw anything which would make it seem that blaster bolts (even ship based) were anymore energetic or even on par with the blast from a hatack (which seems to be variable yield as it was seen destroying cities yet destroying ion cannons without destroying everything else nearby)

[aretood2]

the only way blaster bolts can be blocked is if theyre subsonic and move at speeds closer to arrows than bullets. you can't say a group is on par with the ancients when they're basic infantry weapon is less effective than a musket. in starwars I never saw anything which would make it seem that blaster bolts (even ship based) were anymore energetic or even on par with the blast from a hatack (which seems to be variable yield as it was seen destroying cities yet destroying ion cannons without destroying everything else nearby)

How do you know it's the only way that they can be blocked, and what do you mean it's the only way that they can be blocked?