How powerful is the Stargate universe?

[thekillman]

i am pretty sure they are ascended and even if not then people who can ascend like ancients... i made up a story just for that, if you read it... http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/8...rom-my-side%29

well if we invoke Occam´s razor (explain by what you know first) then i would say them being Ascended makes for a very strong case.

if we look at the achievement of the tech in the universe then stargate can tackle anyone(provided it knows the opposite parties capabilities)..

I disagree. On many occasions we've been outclassed with technological knowledge. Most of what we managed is through extreme user-friendlyness of ancient tech.

Stargate has the most powerful shields... no doubt(going through the core of a blue giant...damn).

Again nope. Destiny didn't fly through a core of a blue giant. It skims the surface. Oh and usually, the surface of a star is a couple of thousand times colder than it's core.

and they can take down anything as their weapons are designed to pierce shields which have the strength of biblical proportions..

Stargate has the concept of matching phase (e.g what the tollans do, the replicators do and the asgard do and what destiny did in Gauntlet). These weapons aren't powerful, they just use technological quirks to function. these quirks do appear in Trek, but not in Wars. It's extremely, EXTREMELY unlikely that Stargate weapons would do much versus Wars shields. And Wars throws around orders of magnitude greater firepower around. As in, actual joules.

still they could take multi gigaton explosions(and they couldn't even take a single ori weapon blast) like it were mosquitos...

never did a shield ever take a gigaton explosion. In every instance of using nukes, the missiles impacted on the shield.

(well maybe the Ori ship taking a nuclear blast counts? but it's not pure the firepower of the nukes).

1. F302s with hyperdrives added so they can remote control them and fly a nuke to the target location through hyperspace.

Wars can do that.

2. asgard beam weapons added and also the replicator beam weapon(the one that will destroy anything) also adding ori beam weapon and the ancient satellite beam weapon and the anubis super weapon and a zpm powered wraith hive ship weapon.... as you do not know what will be more effective against what...

We only have access to the first.

4. tollan out of phase tech and merlin's phase shift tech to alternate dimension added(nothing anyone else can do to atlantis now because even ascended beings cannot touch this who have the knowledge of the universe) also those tollan bombs which anubis had them making to pierce our iris...

Tollan are dead and we only have 1 Arthur's Mantle.

5. ability to make bridges to alternate reality added again.

This only ever ended badly. What exactly do you intend to do with this?

6. ability to extract vaccum energy added again so they can get as much power as the scope of the universe and channel it into their weapons and also escape the enemy's universe by the means of #5.(especially when the universe is about to be destroyed due to vaccum energy extraction and the tears in the fabric leaking to subspace levels).

Did you actually watch trinity? the tech is inherently flawed. It won't work, it'll either blow up atlantis or kill everyone on atlantis. or instantly wipe out everything in the universe Atlantis is in.

7. converting zpms into bombs which is a solar system buster weapon like a nova bomb.

We don't have the ability to make ZPM's. Oh and the Empire can also make ZPM's, maybe not as small but their reactor tech is powerful enough to equal that. They also put (scaling with size) similar powerplants on everything.

8. working wormhole drive.

Like that thing ever worked properly.

9. equiped with asgard core as well which has beam tech and energy to matter conversion and also the time dilation devices which can thwart an attack if they are near destruction(decades to solve a problem)... the time dilation device can also counteract extreme gravity like a blackhole...

Time dilation for what purpose? wasn't it exactly Unending that showed it's the most pointless thing to have? the extreme gravity is something Destiny can do too, so it's not magitech.

10. crew is that of ancients and some creative humans like the sg teams we all adore and love and me ofcourse as they are not too creative... e.g i would not let writing get in the way of an ass kicking the enemy so rightly deserves...

The ancients are dead. The asgard are dead.


This is so typical. SG has many one-off stuffs. Star Wars has a galaxy full of similar tech, with a thousand times the numbers and a far more common application.

There is nothing anyother universe has to destroy this fully equiped atlantis

Bring in a superhive and watch it cry.

But seriously, a Death star would have it for lunch.


Before someone screams "asgard core":

You can't make more ZPM's without using up the power of a ZPM. Conservation of Energy it's called.

The ancients may full well have equipped their technology with an anti-copy protection.

The asgard do not have a matter converter. It's just a basic replicator like in Trek. It rearranges atoms. For Ancient and Asgard tech you'd need tonnes of Neutronium, and the asgard already had trouble finding proper sources.

Lastly, only the recent seasons of SG1/SGA made it seem "easy". This is writer lazyness.

[destiny khan]

well if we invoke Occam´s razor (explain by what you know first) then i would say them being Ascended makes for a very strong case.

Yes i agree... the other feature of letting the people who died the planet and return to destiny in another galaxy points to extreme power which only ascended should have.

I disagree. On many occasions we've been outclassed with technological knowledge. Most of what we managed is through extreme user-friendlyness of ancient tech.

Well read my post fully... i am not specifically talking about what earth knows but what the universe knows. I am pitting universe against universe and that is why i mentioned an atlantis managed by the ancients and earth people. We are essentially a bullet firing noob race... we have no use in such a battle anyways.

Again nope. Destiny didn't fly through a core of a blue giant. It skims the surface. Oh and usually, the surface of a star is a couple of thousand times colder than it's core.

It might be the case, they never mentioned it going through the core but it does go through the core of a sun like the one in our solar system. I don't think any shield outside this verse can even handle that. Again i am not an expert on the star wars and the star trek universe(although i heard a lot about the weapons of star wars) and andromeda and babylon 5 verses are might but there is no shield concept in those verse but they have planet buster weapons and billions of years old races which will eventually trump the empire as well with their various advantages.

Stargate has the concept of matching phase (e.g what the tollans do, the replicators do and the asgard do and what destiny did in Gauntlet). These weapons aren't powerful, they just use technological quirks to function. these quirks do appear in Trek, but not in Wars. It's extremely, EXTREMELY unlikely that Stargate weapons would do much versus Wars shields. And Wars throws around orders of magnitude greater firepower around. As in, actual joules.

Yes they throw around numbers a lot ofcourse. But their weapons will be effective against shields as all shields will have to be that way(there are of course shields in SG verse that imitate solid walls rather than the normal shields). These are weapons that can be built in the stargate universe as they are "high tech" and much more than any other verse. They just don't build planet busters often. They don't build a death star to annihilate a planet(babylon5 had a much more powerful ship in terms of firepower). A single big weapons platform with loads of zpms can do the job very easily if it was ever intended to be made. A single nuke past a death star's shield would be it. The tech is "innovative" enough, if not powerful enough to be effective against most situations.

never did a shield ever take a gigaton explosion. In every instance of using nukes, the missiles impacted on the shield.

(well maybe the Ori ship taking a nuclear blast counts? but it's not pure the firepower of the nukes).[/QUOTE]

i would still maintain that a shield that can go through the center of our sun can take these blasts easily(it reaches terratons in the center of our sun).

Wars can do that.

I suspect they could have taken that out of the war's book of tricks. But that is touted as a really incredible weapon(and the reason i put it in the list) in that verse but us lowly humans could do it with some ingenuity.

We only have access to the first.

It is a universe vs universe... now don't expect the average intellect of tauri to be taking on the might of a full on universe from the other side.

Tollan are dead and we only have 1 Arthur's Mantle.

so what? arthur's mantle is enough for a single ship if not the mass of a planet(count the number of the ships that can be and the link is via subspace so it can expand to half way across the galaxy if need be). And there is nothing in any other verse that can touch this tech alone. Absolutely nothing... as it cannot be touched by even the ascended beings who have the knowledge of the universe.

This only ever ended badly. What exactly do you intend to do with this?



Did you actually watch trinity? the tech is inherently flawed. It won't work, it'll either blow up atlantis or kill everyone on atlantis. or instantly wipe out everything in the universe Atlantis is in.

It is unpredictable but my crew is capable and having an unbeatable force shield helps... these are last possible scenarios when defeat is near otherwise no use because it won't ever be needed(phase shift tech trumps anything any other universe has when you use it for weapons). the main purpose of me mentioning these things is to show capabilities vs capabilities... so vacuum energy from our own space time to destroy a universe as i heard wars has a weapon which can destroy a universe.

We don't have the ability to make ZPM's. Oh and the Empire can also make ZPM's, maybe not as small but their reactor tech is powerful enough to equal that. They also put (scaling with size) similar powerplants on everything.

Well my crew can make it also(don't use the lowly tauri, they didn't know aliens existed until 1994)... and i am hoping they can make something similar too(if not as efficient which shows the efficiency and "higher" tech of the gate universe) because then the stats thrown around by death stars would be absolute crap.

Like that thing ever worked properly.

Well there is no need for it in the first place but it worked "on the first try"


[/QUOTE]Time dilation for what purpose? wasn't it exactly Unending that showed it's the most pointless thing to have? the extreme gravity is something Destiny can do too, so it's not magitech.[/QUOTE]

Well it is to counter any stupid black hole ambushes or whatever... e.g that stupid red matter from the trek movies. If a war occurs between the verse such tactics would come in handy.

The ancients are dead. The asgard are dead.


This is so typical. SG has many one-off stuffs. Star Wars has a galaxy full of similar tech, with a thousand times the numbers and a far more common application.

Well they are dead but again we are talking about full knowledge base here... a simple replicator attack would be even hard for the empire to stop. The rules of the universes are different. The tech in high in the wars universe with the good side as well so they have to show uber weapons on the bad side to show their dominance and this being a incomprehensible "jihad". In the gate universe the bad guys are very high tech but they are essentially meeting resistance from people are equipped with rocks to throw at their space ships(bullets are still high tech rocks compared to the tech of the oppressors). If only this was more into the future in the gate verse then there would be planet busters. The rules of science are different in each universe... stargate weapons maybe even that powerful in the wars universe which likes the things to be too big. Debatable point but i am sure the current tech is enough especially when there is no answer to the phase tech. We have been watching the series from the tauri perspective. If we had watched the series from an ancients perspective then many of these things would be a non issue when it comes to "application" and "numbers".

Bring in a superhive and watch it cry.

it is a zpm vs zpm thing and atlantis had to tackle the planets gravity as well.

But seriously, a Death star would have it for lunch.

It really cannot if the atlantis crew knows what a death star is and has preperation time... merlin's device is the highest tech in any universe... nothing trumps it... a nuke fired from an out of phase and invisible ship has to only sever the connection when the nuke reached inside the shields of a death star(going into a shooting battle is useless really if you have higher technology). The basic thing is that if everyone knows each others capability then gate verse will win with ease simple because of the variety of technology available...

Before someone screams "asgard core":



You can't make more ZPM's without using up the power of a ZPM. Conservation of Energy it's called.


The ancients may full well have equipped their technology with an anti-copy protection.

The asgard do not have a matter converter. It's just a basic replicator like in Trek. It rearranges atoms. For Ancient and Asgard tech you'd need tonnes of Neutronium, and the asgard already had trouble finding proper sources.

Lastly, only the recent seasons of SG1/SGA made it seem "easy". This is writer lazyness.

that is only my theory and i have never seen anyone make such a claim themselves.. i can still debate on that i am right on this and you are wrong but i am not even using this point over here. You do not understand the process fully and still think that there is going to be "creating" of a power source with energy utilized while you forget that it is vacuum energy and you do not need to "create" that using power. Simple "rearranging" is all that is required if you have the specs..which they do even if they cannot understand it(and it is not rearranging anything... it is pure energy to matter conversion simple as that and they can make any sort of material they want be it neutronium or whatever but maybe such elements require a lot of energy). Me breathing the air inside and sealing my mouth shut will trap the air inside. I did not need energy to create that air inside me. The mechanism is the important thing to replicate which takes a pocket of space out of normal space time(like the ftl engines would do on destiny etc and like the nasa's Alcubierre drive but with a solid structure around it rather than an artificial field). That pocket of space is called subspace(they call everything subspace normally) And a minute or tiny door to channel the energy out of it(which takes little to no energy compared to a stargate as size of such holes are proportional to the energy required). And that is not my point here... i don't even need that... it is universe vs universe so it would use all the available assets like ancients and asgards as crew members. why not? even if that is not required then phase shift tech is all we need(if you do not think anything else is worthy enough, which i say it is, but still then you cannot trump this tech in anyway possible)... the end

[Gatefan1976]

Universe V Universe?
SG has the Ancients.
ST has the Q, the Douwed and the Travellers.
SW has the Force
Checksum=ZERO.

Take these plot devices out for a discussion on relative power, because each universe has it's own D.E.M.
Could ST exist without the Q et al? Yep, and it would still kick much booty.
Could SW exist without the Force? Yep, and it would still kick much booty.
Could SG exist without the Ancients? Yep, and it would be primitive.
Remove "ancient tech" and SG is a mess.

[destiny khan]

Universe V Universe?
SG has the Ancients.
ST has the Q, the Douwed and the Travellers.
SW has the Force
Checksum=ZERO.

Take these plot devices out for a discussion on relative power, because each universe has it's own D.E.M.
Could ST exist without the Q et al? Yep, and it would still kick much booty.
Could SW exist without the Force? Yep, and it would still kick much booty.
Could SG exist without the Ancients? Yep, and it would be primitive.
Remove "ancient tech" and SG is a mess.

that is false logic... it is the nature of the universe itself to let people evolve into much higher beings... you cannot take that away... if it wasn't the ancients then it would have been someone else. It is not as preposterous as the "force" atleast and is based on evolution atleast. Anyone can ascend and they would evolve highly into a super human or anyother race before that happens with mega intellect. There might be millions of races as advanced as the ancients in the entire universe but we are only seeing 2-3 galaxies worth... i consider the babylon5 races to be much more mancing than anyone mentioned here...

[thekillman]

that is false logic... it is the nature of the universe itself to let people evolve into much higher beings... you cannot take that away... if it wasn't the ancients then it would have been someone else. It is not as preposterous as the "force" atleast and is based on evolution atleast. Anyone can ascend and they would evolve highly into a super human or anyother race before that happens with mega intellect. There might be millions of races as advanced as the ancients in the entire universe but we are only seeing 2-3 galaxies worth... i consider the babylon5 races to be much more mancing than anyone mentioned here...

actually Gatefan is right. The Ancients didn't evolve here. If it wasn't for the Ancients, not much would've been here. We don't even know the actual origin of the Asgard, Nox and Furlings so there's little to say about that. Hopes and dreams of Atlantis would rapidly collapse without the Ancients.

He's also talking about the actual ancients, not the ascended.

but yea, SG is pretty reliant on acquired goods rather than self-developed technology.

Yes i agree... the other feature of letting the people who died the planet and return to destiny in another galaxy points to extreme power which only ascended should have.

The asgard could easily have done the same. However, i imagine the Builder's lack of experience with human physiology and psychology caused them to make the time-reversing mistake.

i am not specifically talking about what earth knows but what the universe knows

I too pit a universe against a universe, i just expect it to be the actual people in that universe not just "whatever fanwank we can come up with". Stargate is very forgiving with such inventions because it barely ever talks about rules or what we can or can't do, solely to have a convenient plot machine of "well last week we fixed an Ancient powersource the height of their technology now we can barely manage a quarantine" and others.

Simply put, in Wars or Trek one could conceivably make stuff that might fit, in Stargate it's YOLO because the rule is whatever the writers feel like. E.g. compatibility is a problem one moment but they interact laptops with everything the other moment. Our products are compatible because thousands of people worldwide are employed solely to make them so.

It might be the case, they never mentioned it going through the core but it does go through the core of a sun like the one in our solar system.

It dips the surface every time. If it flew straight there would be no point in the pretty "skinnydipping" scene. Also, if it could withstand the core of a red dwarf (and it didnt) then no weapon in the universe would be able to stop it.

But their weapons will be effective against shields as all shields will have to be that way

No. The concept of phase with shields likely exists so they can fire through. Wars can simply open up holes in their shields to fire through. They won't need phase matching and so they won't have this glaring weakness. That such phasetech even works is a huge flaw of shield technology, not some strength of the weapon.

i would still maintain that a shield that can go through the center of our sun can take these blasts easily(it reaches terratons in the center of our sun).

But it didn't.

I suspect they could have taken that out of the war's book of tricks. But that is touted as a really incredible weapon(and the reason i put it in the list) in that verse but us lowly humans could do it with some ingenuity.

That's not what i meant. Wars has access to small hyperdrives and small ships too. They could easily do the same tactic with hundreds of thousands of fighters.

(count the number of the ships that can be and the link is via subspace so it can expand to half way across the galaxy if need be).

uh what?

because then the stats thrown around by death stars would be absolute crap.

A death star fires the energy of a ZPM per shot.

you forget that it is vacuum energy and you do not need to "create" that using power

It uses an artificial self-contained universe to do so. Artificial therefore made therefore it needs the energy to be made.

[destiny khan]

actually Gatefan is right. The Ancients didn't evolve here. If it wasn't for the Ancients, not much would've been here. We don't even know the actual origin of the Asgard, Nox and Furlings so there's little to say about that. Hopes and dreams of Atlantis would rapidly collapse without the Ancients.

He's also talking about the actual ancients, not the ascended.

but yea, SG is pretty reliant on acquired goods rather than self-developed technology.

I am sorry but aren't we talking about tech here? it was self developed by someone once upon a time. Why does it have to matter? we are pitting tech vs tech and that is all.

No. The concept of phase with shields likely exists so they can fire through. Wars can simply open up holes in their shields to fire through. They won't need phase matching and so they won't have this glaring weakness. That such phasetech even works is a huge flaw of shield technology, not some strength of the weapon.

This technology was only explained in destiny and it is not necessary that every shield is designed that way(we saw that hathore's shield was different). And letting matter through does not necessarily mean that it does not do what the wars tech does as you tell me. Because it won't make sense if a cargo ship can go one way but not the other way back.

But it didn't.

yes yes coronas are not the center but a pretty damn impressive feat still

That's not what i meant. Wars has access to small hyperdrives and small ships too. They could easily do the same tactic with hundreds of thousands of fighters.

yup they could...

uh what?

Merlin's out of phase technology works over long range(mitchell going through a wormhole and still being connected to it via subspace on the sodan homeworld). With zpms it has the potential to take planets out of phase and a fleet of ships equal in mass over a very very long distance. And you can take certain parts of that same mass back to phase when need be e.g firing missiles into a ship...

A death star fires the energy of a ZPM per shot.

I thought it was a planet buster only and zpm has much more energy than that. I say that because a zpm can take down an entire solar system when overloaded so it must have enough energy to manage a hundred or more of such "shots". But they never really put zpms in actual numbers ever. Fun fact... the babylon 5 vorlons have the same firing mechanism as the death star(several lasers combining to fire). I really don't know anything about the wars universe other than what the movies showed so i will always fall back to the merlin out of phase tech as that is the only thing that wars cannot counter. Would feel like a stupid fanboy then but what can i do? trek and wars are the pioneers of the genre so everything looks driven from them to me. They did it first...

It uses an artificial self-contained universe to do so. Artificial therefore made therefore it needs the energy to be made.

The mechanism is artificial(don't go by rodney's definition). Taking a normal portion of this universe out of phase so that it does not interact with anything outside this subspace does not require energy as there is no "creation" of the region. You can argue that asgard core would recreate that region rather than do what ancients did so it would take energy but i think a few tweaks would let the core utilize normal region of space rather than create the space out of the blue. Please leave it... you always fall back to the same argument which i try to explain but english is like my 5th language so i cannot explain it fully maybe.

[Gatefan1976]

I am sorry but aren't we talking about tech here? it was self developed by someone once upon a time. Why does it have to matter? we are pitting tech vs tech and that is all.

Then SG gets the (ascended) ancients, ST gets the Q, who give not a toss about interfering and SW gets all the Sith based tech, as well as all the Jedi tech.
Again, SG looses as both ST and SW "uber beings" are willing to interfere DIRECTLY whereas the Ancients would not. Of course, you could put the Ori in charge.

This technology was only explained in destiny and it is not necessary that every shield is designed that way(we saw that hathore's shield was different). And letting matter through does not necessarily mean that it does not do what the wars tech does as you tell me. Because it won't make sense if a cargo ship can go one way but not the other way back.

Hang on
Killmans explanation is -wrong- because you don't believe it, yet your explanation is correct and we have to accept it??
Come on man.

yes yes coronas are not the center but a pretty damn impressive feat still

Again, 1 suncrusher, sits at the HEART of a sun, let alone a coronal area or ejection. Your example is actually unimpressive in comparison.

yup they could...

And they would.

Merlin's out of phase technology works over long range(mitchell going through a wormhole and still being connected to it via subspace on the sodan homeworld). With zpms it has the potential to take planets out of phase and a fleet of ships equal in mass over a very very long distance. And you can take certain parts of that same mass back to phase when need be e.g firing missiles into a ship...

ONE device, not even able to be copied could protect one fleet, or one planet at a time, sure. SW and ST tech is repeatable and mass produceable -within it's known technology-. SG may have some fancy one off tech, but it cannot be copied within the knowledge of the SG-verse. You can extrapolate, sure, but in hundreds of hours of show, it was never done. If you want to allow SG to extrapolate, then you must allow the others.

I thought it was a planet buster only and zpm has much more energy than that.

When?

I say that because a zpm can take down an entire solar system when overloaded so it must have enough energy to manage a hundred or more of such "shots".

When?

But they never really put zpms in actual numbers ever. Fun fact... the babylon 5 vorlons have the same firing mechanism as the death star(several lasers combining to fire).

Fun fact, the Q could snap their fingers and turn the Shadows and Vorlon into dust. Of course, that's not a fact, it's a fanwank...............

I really don't know anything about the wars universe other than what the movies showed so i will always fall back to the merlin out of phase tech as that is the only thing that wars cannot counter. Would feel like a stupid fanboy then but what can i do?

But you are willing to say "you are wrong" with limited knowledge of the SW galaxy?
Here is what you can do, learn more about the SW-verse. You don't have to be an expert, but a look through Wookiepedia at least might be useful.

trek and wars are the pioneers of the genre so everything looks driven from them to me. They did it first...

No they were not.

The mechanism is artificial(don't go by rodney's definition).

Don't go by the TV shows explanation, and an ep or 2 that concentrates on the effects of trying to create a ZPM and the alternate realities it effects.
Instead, we should go by yours??

Taking a normal portion of this universe out of phase so that it does not interact with anything outside this subspace does not require energy as there is no "creation" of the region. You can argue that asgard core would recreate that region rather than do what ancients did so it would take energy but i think a few tweaks would let the core utilize normal region of space rather than create the space out of the blue. Please leave it... you always fall back to the same argument which i try to explain but english is like my 5th language so i cannot explain it fully maybe.

[destiny khan]

Then SG gets the (ascended) ancients, ST gets the Q, who give not a toss about interfering and SW gets all the Sith based tech, as well as all the Jedi tech.
Again, SG looses as both ST and SW "uber beings" are willing to interfere DIRECTLY whereas the Ancients would not. Of course, you could put the Ori in charge.

Uber beings involved or not we are still talking about feats of a universe here when it comes to tech...

Hang on
Killmans explanation is -wrong- because you don't believe it, yet your explanation is correct and we have to accept it??
Come on man.

I am not saying it is wrong. I am just saying that what he says about wars shields letting ships go through the shield by creating holes in it can also be true for the gate verse because ships don't go both ways through the shield in gate verse... or did they? i might be wrong on that but if what he says is true then the ships can go both ways(atlantis shields allow both way jumper travel but did the goauld shield allow it? ) i mean to say is that all the gate shields are not built the same way otherwise they would eventually become useless as others will start adopting quickly after a few battles.

Again, 1 suncrusher, sits at the HEART of a sun, let alone a coronal area or ejection. Your example is actually unimpressive in comparison.

I really don't know what that is... wars verse is shown to throw pretty big numbers here but is it really high tech or just "powerful"... is it like a nova bomb? i believe it is... don't know the exact workings... never saw that in the movies...according to the "wookiepedia" it doesn't sit at the star's core but explodes after reaching it starting a chain reaction... i believe things like destiny aren't supposed to explode... anyways, that ship gets damaged by a half shot of a deathstar... NOT IMPRESSED... making a star go supernova is easier than artificially increasing its mass to collapse it into a blackhole without out layers going nova. Even if we take that it is impressive then these things can also be achieved in gate verse "easily" by people who can understand out of phase tech like the tollans... who were humans and not uber or anything... the quantum crystalline armor of this star crusher can be made in gate verse and that would not need ancient level intelligence either... and this armor has phaseshift technology which i am suggesting in the first place...

i believe if a series was made about the time of the ancients then many things would be on equal terms.

ONE device, not even able to be copied could protect one fleet, or one planet at a time, sure. SW and ST tech is repeatable and mass produceable -within it's known technology-. SG may have some fancy one off tech, but it cannot be copied within the knowledge of the SG-verse. You can extrapolate, sure, but in hundreds of hours of show, it was never done. If you want to allow SG to extrapolate, then you must allow the others.

actually the series was cancelled and it would have been copied and wasn't really one off... what you guys talk about is mostly from books which are a huge amount in number from the wars verse(i have no idea how many)... a series cannot compete with that and a big budget of movies.

When?

talked about many times in the show... an overloading zpm can cause our solar system to be wiped out and not just earth(carter to oniell in s08e04)

When?

Fun fact, the Q could snap their fingers and turn the Shadows and Vorlon into dust. Of course, that's not a fact, it's a fanwank...............
But you are willing to say "you are wrong" with limited knowledge of the SW galaxy?
Here is what you can do, learn more about the SW-verse. You don't have to be an expert, but a look through Wookiepedia at least might be useful.

do i sense annoyed sarcastic arrogance there? so you do not like my conclusion and i should accept yours? thats a pity especially when all of the science is bull**** in the first place here... none of it is most probably possible in anyway in any amount of time in real life when it comes to hard science. What i am doing is also fanwank so why is it a problem? why should i accept anyone else's conclusion? i have seen many weapons on this wookiepedia and i am sure it can be replicated in gate verse too if the mythology was that long. And did i say "you are wrong"? i am only defending the possibilities in the gate verse(yes all of the stuff is possible) and not talking about if wars is wrong. When i am convinced i won't raise that point again... or is it equal to ego? where is the fun in just accepting an answer and not debating it further? i side with underdogs... sure... wars verse if far more powerful "apparently" when it comes to a fight against tauri... using a merlin's device maybe a one off but is pretty damn heavy one off which cannot be equaled by the wars verse and which can be used to destroy anything they can throw at the gate verse... sure it is "fanwank" but isn't comparing universes in the first place as the rules of physics are different in each universe here..

No they were not.

I don't care... i don't know of planet busting ships before that time... my main focus is on "what is seen" than "what is read"

Don't go by the TV shows explanation, and an ep or 2 that concentrates on the effects of trying to create a ZPM and the alternate realities it effects.
Instead, we should go by yours??

Bad writing is not something i would go by... i have "proven" that the show has bad writing when it comes to science. An asgard ship that travels through galaxies in an hour or so started taking days in the atlantis spinoff... their science is not consistent. Converting energy to matter has inconceivable and unlimited applications but the show only touched on it in an episode or two(disregard the zpm even). They did touch on the subject but forgot about it forever. These are only "what ifs" and they are not about hard science. No one can ever gave me a proper excuse to simple things like not using kull warrior's suits as armor for flagship teams even though they had a handful of them.. other than writer's choices... it may be "fanwank" but when you show a technology then it is expected to be used in the future and not just forgotten about. If you do not agree then there is no need for you to answer with attitude... i am not bound to listen to rude remarks. Sorry your holiness i ever dared to disagree... i concede here... i should have dared to agree over such hard science and using my own imagination where the writer's failed... i forgot that there were "hard facts" here and some silly over the top sci fi genre with serious scientific phenomenon like "the force"...

[thekillman]

I am sorry but aren't we talking about tech here? it was self developed by someone once upon a time. Why does it have to matter? we are pitting tech vs tech and that is all.

we're pitting universe against universe. Tech is a means to an end, not the answer. Wars has a strong combination of impressive technology, numbers and the means to sustain those numbers. A single "uber ship" won't change that.

This technology was only explained in destiny and it is not necessary that every shield is designed that way(we saw that hathore's shield was different). And letting matter through does not necessarily mean that it does not do what the wars tech does as you tell me. Because it won't make sense if a cargo ship can go one way but not the other way back.

in wars, they open up holes in the shields to let ships through. They don't have to add a weakness to the shield to do it like Trek and Gate do.

Also, the effect is 100% the same as the Tollan, the Asgard, the Replicators and perhaps even the Ori weapons and shields. In fact, it's very clear this is how it works. Anubis' ship got fired upon by thor. no all-out battle, just a couple of shots. If that destroyed other Goa'uld ships, then anubis' shields must be stronger by two orders of magnitude (100% damage versus less than 1% as it was said to be "ineffective"). Yet when it goes against other goa'uld it's not like every ha'tak represents a fleet. The same can be said to the Replicators, asgard tech in general.

yes yes coronas are not the center but a pretty damn impressive feat still

Orders of magnitude less impressive than flying through a core (of any star). It's like a candle to... well a candle to the core of a Red Dwarf.

I thought it was a planet buster only and zpm has much more energy than that. I say that because a zpm can take down an entire solar system when overloaded so it must have enough energy to manage a hundred or more of such "shots". But they never really put zpms in actual numbers ever. Fun fact... the babylon 5 vorlons have the same firing mechanism as the death star(several lasers combining to fire). I really don't know anything about the wars universe other than what the movies showed so i will always fall back to the merlin out of phase tech as that is the only thing that wars cannot counter. Would feel like a stupid fanboy then but what can i do? trek and wars are the pioneers of the genre so everything looks driven from them to me. They did it first...

1: a ZPM can not destroy a solar system. It can destroy a planet at best. This may seem counterintuitive, but i've seen people actually calculate various energies of various ZPM's and the average seems to lie somewhere around 10^33 joules of energy, or the power to destroy a planet (with a perfect spherical explosion). The Death star can not only manage that, but it can actually fly and move through hyperspace. You'd be depleting ZPM's on a conveyer belt just to operate the Death Star. For crying out loud, a ZPM could barely lift a city.

The mechanism is artificial(don't go by rodney's definition).

He specifically states the region is artificial. Therefore it is artificial. No need to go to great lengths to explain this. This is as it is.


By the way, by virtue of "death star" the Empire could duplicate the feat of Destiny. The borg also had a fortress floating on a sun.

Again, SG looses as both ST and SW "uber beings" are willing to interfere DIRECTLY whereas the Ancients would not. Of course, you could put the Ori in charge.

The influence of the Ancients is strong enough to prevent Pegasus from being invaded by the ori. so surely, if we imagine the respective galaxies popping into existence next to SG's milky way, they'd fall under the same influence? I mean, Pegasus is near the boundary of our local group.

SG may have some fancy one off tech, but it cannot be copied within the knowledge of the SG-verse. You can extrapolate, sure, but in hundreds of hours of show, it was never done. If you want to allow SG to extrapolate, then you must allow the others.

That's why i don't believe Stargate would win. They're up against similarly tech'd universes where everyone has all the experience and knowledge to make stuff work. Besides, the blade is two-edged. If the Tau'ri can figure out Ancient tech.. there's absolutely NOTHING stopping the vastly more advanced (as in, every-day advanced) Empire and Federation from beating the crap out of the Tau'ri and the ancients themselves with their own tech.

Wars may not have the concept of phase, but Trek does. Besides, we don't exactly know how the Force relates to such out of phase Tech. Stargate has such vulnerabilities. Though rich with fantasy-concepts, Wars is surprisingly grounded in old fashioned firepower, shield power and energy. Where Trek and Wars make do with fancy mechanisms, Wars blasts with firepower.

it can also be true for the gate verse because ships don't go both ways through the shield in gate verse

no. The whole phase ordeal exists so ships in stargate can fire and fly through their own shields. Trek does a similar thing. Wars has shown to open up small holes in their shields to allow ships to dock etc. They don't need phase tech on their shields to do anything. Trek's and Gate's vulnerabilities do not exist for Wars.

i believe if a series was made about the time of the ancients then many things would be on equal terms.

Nah, they still won't win. remember "ark of truth"? That's what an ancient village looks like. We saw an impressive two cityships, an impressive ancient base (inferno) and well..that's it. The ancients in Pegasus barely seemed to have any industry or infrastructure, nor did they seem numerous. The same seems to be true for the Milky Way ones since they too seem to lack serious infrastructure. If a complicated piece of machinery can survive 50+million years in a damp cave, surely a city of theirs would survive for ~5 to 10 million years? Even atlantis after 10 000 years of submersion, 10+ million years of existence and years of bombardment was pretty much pristine. Yet we see no other Ancient city.

There's nothing to indicate the ancients were particularly numerous or industrially capable. A single Trek or Wars world would easily outproduce the entire Ancient Imperium.

some silly over the top sci fi genre with serious scientific phenomenon like "the force"...

Stargate has telekinesis and a few other things that are pretty much the same thing.



The ancients would, in the end, have to be orders of magnitude more powerful than any Wars planet and they're simply not. The Empire could throw ships at the Ancients, and either win through destruction or the Ancient's boredom.

So yea, Wars isn't very defeatable. Which is why i thought Trek/Gate would be much more interesting given that it's less perfectly moral, has some interesting tradeoffs and some similarities that would make many crossover races work together well (e.g. tau'ri and Federation).


Lastly, trek and wars did not "do it first". Most sci fi concepts predate that. The big difference is that trek and wars popularized these concepts to the point of endless ripoffs. Hell, modern Sci Fi was invented by a guy writing a porn fiction knockoff from War of the Worlds, coining proper interplanetary travel, asteroid mining, interspecies wars and a crapton more.

[destiny khan]

bro... it is ad nauseam

Comparing universes is not a good idea anyways...

[thekillman]

bro... it is ad nauseam

Comparing universes is not a good idea anyways...

I think it is interesting. Startrek deserves some more alalysis

[Peterking72]

I was to reply roughly the same to destiny khan, but thekillman beat me to it. English is not my mothertongue as well, but I don't use it as an excuse to defend my arguments. Plus what I can see is that you understand english and you can construct sentences pretty well, apart from some major grammar mistakes here and there. I make mistakes too and sometimes my arguments suffer for it. But I make up for it next time and try to explain it in a way that everyone understands. Even those who don't speak english very well.

Back to the vs theme:

Here you seem to be adamant to claim that energy can be created from nothing. If that were a possibility we were like God (the Christian one), who created this world out of nothing. You would need other abilities to be a god per se, but God's most powerful ability is to create matter/power from nothing.
You bring up an example that making power is like filling your mouth with hot air and that it doesn't require energy. The hell it doesn't. Moving your mouth muscles and using your lung to create inward vacuum does require a lot of energy. If your example was true then a man could run miles upon miles without becoming tired. We wouldn't need to eat except for taste or fun etc.

You always revert to this out of phase thing. The thing is the technology doesn't work like you want or the way you "explain" it. It has a cool down period to begin with. It uses a lot of energy, depending on how much matter you want to take out of phase. Taking Earth out of phase required the whole power capacity of the US and that was for just an hour or two, until the Ori fed up and left.
So taking a nuke out of phase then back again is not going to work that way. By the time it phases back the nuke would have exited on the other side of the ship or the ship have simply moved. Real battles is not like most SG battles where ships holding continously one position and firing at the enemy like there was no tomorrow. In battle you have to move otherwise you're dead meat. Blood in the water and the sharks eat you up like candy. I like the battles in SG where is movement involved like the Battle of Dakara or the Battle over Antarctis. That out of phase nuking would work maybe once or twice until the enemy figure it out and takes evasive actions.

At any rate there are things in both sides that the other side would have a hard time figuring out and defend itself against.

Posting the same arguments multiple times are not going to nullify other people's claims and hard facts of physics.

Star Wars has phase as a force ability, There you go:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phase

[Gatefan1976]

Uber beings involved or not we are still talking about feats of a universe here when it comes to tech...

Sure, and tech wise SG falls very short of any mark because it relies on writer crutch "one off's" or so few ships capable of doing, well, anything that both SW and ST would overwhelm them eventually, just the same as the Wraith did to the Ancients.
I don't think you are getting just how advanced SW and ST are in terms of manufacturing their tech in comparison to SG.
If SG lost the Odessey in unending, ALL that tech is lost. If the Empire loses a SSD or The Federation loose a Galaxy/sovereign vessel, it is a shame, but not a handicap.

I am not saying it is wrong. I am just saying that what he says about wars shields letting ships go through the shield by creating holes in it can also be true for the gate verse because ships don't go both ways through the shield in gate verse... or did they? i might be wrong on that but if what he says is true then the ships can go both ways(atlantis shields allow both way jumper travel but did the goauld shield allow it? ) i mean to say is that all the gate shields are not built the same way otherwise they would eventually become useless as others will start adopting quickly after a few battles.

Here I agree with you, SG does allow for 2 way shield travel with no compramise of Shield Integrity -for ancient vessels- But the Terran vessels need to drop their shields, and even use it as a plot point to show it. They can Teleport with shields up, but they cannot make that "localized break" that SW and ST do all the time.

I really don't know what that is... wars verse is shown to throw pretty big numbers here but is it really high tech or just "powerful"... is it like a nova bomb? i believe it is... don't know the exact workings... never saw that in the movies...according to the "wookiepedia" it doesn't sit at the star's core but explodes after reaching it starting a chain reaction... i believe things like destiny aren't supposed to explode...

You are talking about the missiles fired by the suncrusher, not the vessel itself, look at the vessel itself.

anyways, that ship gets damaged by a half shot of a deathstar... NOT IMPRESSED...

A SHIP, a ship the size of a puddle jumper is DAMAGED by a half shot from a weapon capable of reducing a planet to a small asteroid field.
Yeah, happens all the time............

making a star go supernova is easier than artificially increasing its mass to collapse it into a blackhole without out layers going nova. Even if we take that it is impressive then these things can also be achieved in gate verse "easily" by people who can understand out of phase tech like the tollans... who were humans and not uber or anything... the quantum crystalline armor of this star crusher can be made in gate verse and that would not need ancient level intelligence either... and this armor has phaseshift technology which i am suggesting in the first place...

Right, here is the problem. You are EXTRAPOLATING on what exists and assume humans can just "do it". Killman and I are arguing WHAT HAS BEEN SHOWN ALREADY. I mean, if we want to go down that path, SW could make a handheld death star weapon, just as a function of miniaturisation.
I am not willing to go there.

i believe if a series was made about the time of the ancients then many things would be on equal terms.

I believe Trek and SW have far more internal consistency than SG, no matter how "whack" they are.

actually the series was cancelled and it would have been copied and wasn't really one off... what you guys talk about is mostly from books which are a huge amount in number from the wars verse(i have no idea how many)... a series cannot compete with that and a big budget of movies.

Which series?
Honestly, what the hell are you talking about now??
SW has what, 14 hours of movie, 5 seasons of cartoons and ALOT of books.
ST has 30 odd hours of movie, 27 seasons of TV and a metric TON of books,
SG has 6 odd hours of movie, 17 seasons of TV and a fair amount of books.

If that were my metric, I would be arguing for a ST win, but I am not.

talked about many times in the show... an overloading zpm can cause our solar system to be wiped out and not just earth(carter to oniell in s08e04)

the ZPM is Zero Hour is modified to be a bomb, so it is not a "bog standard" ZPM.

do i sense annoyed sarcastic arrogance there?

Nope, you sense annoyance, that is true. The sarcastic arrogance is more a response to "I am an expert who speaks 5 languages, so I know better"

so you do not like my conclusion and i should accept yours?

No, you shouldn't, we should discuss it.

thats a pity especially when all of the science is bull**** in the first place here... none of it is most probably possible in anyway in any amount of time in real life when it comes to hard science. What i am doing is also fanwank so why is it a problem?

If you want to have a discussion, you need to put fanwank aside and just look at what is there. Gatefan is somewhat of a misnomer as I am really a scifi fan, but Gatefan works well for....Gateworld. I am no more a fan of SW over ST over SW, over B5, over BSG, over whatever. SG simply has more flaws than most other shows, no matter how much I like it.

why should i accept anyone else's conclusion? i have seen many weapons on this wookiepedia and i am sure it can be replicated in gate verse too if the mythology was that long. And did i say "you are wrong"? i am only defending the possibilities in the gate verse(yes all of the stuff is possible) and not talking about if wars is wrong. When i am convinced i won't raise that point again... or is it equal to ego? where is the fun in just accepting an answer and not debating it further? i side with underdogs... sure... wars verse if far more powerful "apparently" when it comes to a fight against tauri... using a merlin's device maybe a one off but is pretty damn heavy one off which cannot be equaled by the wars verse and which can be used to destroy anything they can throw at the gate verse... sure it is "fanwank" but isn't comparing universes in the first place as the rules of physics are different in each universe here..

No, you cannot do this in a discussion. All we can reasonably work with is what we have seen or read because it removes our imagination. I can imagine SG doing all kinds of great things, but I cannot substantiate it at all. I CAN substantiate my SW or ST claims based on the shows or books. If you want to allow imagination, you have to allow it for everything.

I don't care... i don't know of planet busting ships before that time... my main focus is on "what is seen" than "what is read"

So, "what you like or know of"?

Bad writing is not something i would go by... i have "proven" that the show has bad writing when it comes to science.

No, we all knew that the science of SG is a product of bad writing.

An asgard ship that travels through galaxies in an hour or so started taking days in the atlantis spinoff... their science is not consistent. Converting energy to matter has inconceivable and unlimited applications but the show only touched on it in an episode or two(disregard the zpm even). They did touch on the subject but forgot about it forever. These are only "what ifs" and they are not about hard science. No one can ever gave me a proper excuse to simple things like not using kull warrior's suits as armor for flagship teams even though they had a handful of them.. other than writer's choices... it may be "fanwank" but when you show a technology then it is expected to be used in the future and not just forgotten about.

So, your argument is the writing sucked, had one off D.E.M.'s and BECAUSE it's writing sucked, and had one of D.E.M.'s it should be forgiven??
Come on man.

If you do not agree then there is no need for you to answer with attitude... i am not bound to listen to rude remarks. Sorry your holiness i ever dared to disagree... i concede here... i should have dared to agree over such hard science and using my own imagination where the writer's failed... i forgot that there were "hard facts" here and some silly over the top sci fi genre with serious scientific phenomenon like "the force"...

There are no "hard facts" there is internal consistant logic to a series. ST excels at this, SW sucks at the technobabble, but is consistant. SG is just a mish mash of contradictorary CRAP in this regard because the writers never bothered to check on it.
You are free to use your imagination, we are free to use ours as well to disprove yours. It's not a "holier than though" attitude, it is simply using your rules.

[thekillman]

English is not my mothertongue as well,

I don't think there are many native speakers here on Gateworld. It's not my mothertongue either.

[JWSmythe]

It's impossible to really measure which "universe" is stronger, because we can't place them in the same time period.

Stargate is (more or less) at our time.
Star Wars is "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away"
Star Trek is centuries in the future.
Babylon 5 is also centuries in the future.

All have had civilizations come and go. Technology has been learned and lost.

Stargate makes this very obvious with humans (and humanoids) finding technology scattered throughout at least 7 galaxies. With SGU and SGA, the ages of the races and the possibility for lost civilizations increased.

Star Trek (ST:TNG S06E20 "The Chase") they find a recording from an ancient space traveling race who seeded planets with the hope that they would someday evolve and develop space travel (at least 200M years ago).

Babylon 5 (S01E18 and S01E19 "A Voice in the Wilderness"), "The Great Machine" was built around 1758, "500 years prior to the establishment of Babylon 5" (Wikipedia)

We were introduced to Star Wars in the middle of a civil war. The prequels showed a larger civilization and more advanced technology, where the later (in-universe chronology) shows a war torn shadow of what once was.

From what I know of the universes, they were at their peaks at ...

Stargate before the Ancients fought with the Wraith, but with the other 3 "Great Races".
Star Wars (pre civil war)
Star Trek (post Star Trek Voyager)
Babylon 5 (2259 / Season 5)
... because I want to say it ...
Andromeda (CY 9772, before episode 1)
... and because someone else mentioned it ...
Doctor Who (before the Time War)

If we place them all concurrent at that moment in time, in the same universe, who knows. We don't know the expanses of their universes at those times, all of their alliances, their total fleet strengths, or their capacity for building more and better stuff. War makes for strange allies also, so what were enemies at any given point in time could become allies. Within those universes, you have good/evil or friend/foe, or just a general dislike of each other.

That would make for one heck of a CGI generated movie though, and totally disrupt the timelines of all the shows.

Someone else mentioned that Doctor Who shouldn't be even considered. I do, because I like it. I also see things in it that aren't really spelled out. A TARDIS isn't just a funny box that goes flying through space and time. It's a variable location endpoint for a wormhole that crosses timespace boundaries, joining a fixed point in another dimension (the interior of the TARDIS), that is powered by a black hole / white dwarf / Eye of Harmony / Heart of the TARDIS (depends on when he says it).

I hear Samantha Carter and Rodney McKay simultaneously explaining that in my head, which makes it more entertaining. But with an explanation like that, and the average audience, they can't really explain too much without confusing the audience and incidental characters.

Sorry, newbie posting. Take my ramblings as you will.