Is there a real ending?

[Flyboy]

Spoiler:

There mission was to retrieve ancient technology and bring it back to Earth. It was not to defeat the Wraith, that was just secondary mission to defend the City until they could take it back to Earth. You could argue the rights an wrong of that but that was their mission and they completed it.

An their no way the IOA or anyone in the US government or earth is ever going to let Atlantis go back to Pegasus, either should it. We have the technology to defeat the Wraith, we just need to build the ships and train their crew to enable us to exterminate them, which is not morally right either

What he said.

[knowles2]

A fighting chance to do what? Virtually all the humans in the galaxy are not even space-faring.

Spoiler:

The only threat to wraith is other wraith.

Spoiler:

Actually the travellers are a big threat, in fact I am surprise we were not putting substantial resources into helping them rebuild their ships and in helping them to build more.

If all that was required to ended the wraith threat permanently was to leave, why didn't they do that after The Return when they had enough ZPMs?

Good question, an it was the failure of command for them not to do exactly that. (The writers had to keep the series going, even if it did not fit the story or the rules of the universe they created. If this was real, the second they got those ZPMs they should have power up the drive and went home)

Or after they reestablished contact with Earth, why didn't they blow up the city and leave on a 304 at any time?

They wanted the city, that was their primary mission was to protect the city at all costs. An as any military person knows the best defence is a good offence/



Their original mission in going there in the first place was to retrieve Lantean technology, the rest was superfluous.

but after the wraith threat became apparent their mission became to combat that threat. If all they wanted to do was leave, they could have easily left more than once over the course of the show.

I put this down to failure of command, and Weir and Shepherd being a goodie two shoes.

And the reason they ending up leaving the Pegasus Galaxy in the first place was to stop the Superhive, not specifically to take the city to Earth.

But now it on Earth, something the IOA wanted all along, no way in hell are they going to let it go.

SG-1 wiped out the replicators

They were, in the end soulless machines. An they were given several chances to change their ways, which they could have done if they chose to.

and the ori,

They were corrupted, but their species survive through the ancients, and through the humans in their galaxy.

the goa'uld .

They are still around, in the form of the Tok 'ra, we did not wiped out a whole species, An I imagine their are plenty of rocks where the Go'uld are hiding under in the galaxy, probably a few on earth. We, along with the replicators and Anubis wiped out the systems lords, not all Go'ulds

but ok in all fairness I will admit the solution to the wraith conflict is a little more morally complicated

A lot more morally complicated, they have absolutely no choice but to feed on humans, no ifs, no butts, if they do not feed they die, all the others, they had a choice, they could have change their ways, they could have built themselves a peaceful civilisation. They choose not to.

But similarly one could make a case that by not wiping out the wraith they are condoning and allowing genocide of the Pegasus humans.

So one genocide justifies another genocide. The genocide is the near or complete destruction of an entire species, the last thing the Wraith want for us Humans to be completely destroyed.

The point is though, whatever the solution itself was is not that important. What I wanted was for the story to reach some kind of conclusion that shows that the story has reached an ending.

Whether they eradicated the wraith or gave up or did something else, I wanted an ending and and acknowledgement of one. There wasn't one in Enemy at the Gate.

So you wanted one scene at the end of the episode saying that their no way in hell Atlantis is ever leaving earth again (instead of the beutiful shot of them look over the Goldern gate bridge. ). Atlantis story is over. I would love to a story about the Wraith wars or some sort of story solving their food crisis. But Ultimately that was not the team mission, they long exceeded the boundaries of their mission and should have took Atlantis back to Earth long before enemy at the gate, But it back on Earth now, no way is it ever leaving.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Spoiler:

Actually the travellers are a big threat, in fact I am surprise we were not putting substantial resources into helping them rebuild their ships and in helping them to build more.

There was nothing in the show that ever indicated the Travelers were (or had ever been) powerful enough to defeat the Wraith, especially considering that their most powerful ship was destroyed by the Attero Device, along with their first settlement and many of their people.

Good question, an it was the failure of command for them not to do exactly that. (The writers had to keep the series going, even if it did not fit the story or the rules of the universe they created. If this was real, the second they got those ZPMs they should have power up the drive and went home)

And of course I say it's actually because their mission was more complicated that you are saying it was. Especially since the only alternative you're suggesting is that is was a plothole. Nobody on Earth ever ordered them to go home either.

Maybe they would have left if it was real. But it's not. Stargate doesn't work on real world logic. If it did, nothing of what happened in SG-1 SGA or even SGU would have happened, so appealing to realism is pointless. It's a little late in the game for that.

They wanted the city, that was their primary mission was to protect the city at all costs. An as any military person knows the best defence is a good offence/

Their original mission in going there in the first place was to retrieve Lantean technology, the rest was superfluous.

I put this down to failure of command, and Weir and Shepherd being a goodie two shoes.

Missions change when encountering an endless army of life-sucking aliens bent on reaching Earth. It's silly to expect otherwise. And Weir and Sheppard weren't the only ones who could make the call. SG-1's mission was to retrieve alien technology too, if they had found Atlantis and brought it home I don't think they would have just stopped fighting the Goa'uld. The wraith are more distant but still a real threat.

But now it on Earth, something the IOA wanted all along, no way in hell are they going to let it go.

There are any number of reasons to justify letting them go back eventually. The Wraith still want to find Earth, so assuming they will give up and never find the Milky Way is dangerous. Especially considering that they will be increasingly desperate to do so as their food supply dwindles. Atlantis can't stop them unless they are in the Pegasus Galaxy, and if they reach the Milky Way it will be too late.

They were, in the end soulless machines. An they were given several chances to change their ways, which they could have done if they chose to.

There were sapient replicators among them. The human-form replicators were few in number but they still existed and constituted an "entire species."

A lot more morally complicated, they have absolutely no choice but to feed on humans, no ifs, no butts, if they do not feed they die, all the others, they had a choice, they could have change their ways, they could have built themselves a peaceful civilisation. They choose not to.

The Goa'uld needed human hosts to survive and I doubt that they could have done so with volunteers alone like the Tokra. The Tok'ra were very few in number.

The research on the wraith feeding now means there is now conceivably a way for wraith to stop feeding on humans. Does that mean it's now justifiable to destroy them for choosing not to use it?

But at the end of the day I don't see how it makes much of a difference. If you are going to justify annihilating an entire people for their atrocities, then it really shouldn't make a difference if it is by choice or by nature. If any perpetrators of genocide in history were somehow biologically driven to do what they did, does that mean it's not morally right to stop them? Even if they'd somehow die unless they killed people?

That analogy doesn't work so well in real human history but it is essentially the scenario presented here.

Plus, if you're going by sheer numbers, more humans would die by letting the wraith have the galaxy than wraith would by wiping them out.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend there is an easy answer, but leaving the wraith in to control the galaxy isn't an acceptable solution.

So one genocide justifies another genocide. The genocide is the near or complete destruction of an entire species, the last thing the Wraith want for us Humans to be completely destroyed.

The entire species being completely destroyed isn't necessary for it to be genocide. Genocide has happened many times in our history, and our entire species weren't endangered because of them. The Holocaust, for instance, was a genocide and humanity wasn't threatened with extinction. The wraith have destroyed world after world after world, sometimes as an example. And even among the ones that survived, every planet in the galaxy has suffered a long history of wraith taking huge amounts of their population. Teyla mentioned that "the last great holocaust was five generations ago" meaning that Athos (along with virtually every world in the galaxy) suffered regular genocide after genocide for 10,000 years. And in between each one the wraith are still constantly slaughtering them in smaller numbers. That is what has happened and will keep happening with the wraith ruling the galaxy, which they still do.

I could just as easily ask anyone who doesn't support destroying the wraith if they wanted genocide in the show. But I know it's not as simple as that.

So you wanted one scene at the end of the episode saying that their no way in hell Atlantis is ever leaving earth again (instead of the beutiful shot of them look over the Goldern gate bridge. ). Atlantis story is over. I would love to a story about the Wraith wars or some sort of story solving their food crisis. But Ultimately that was not the team mission, they long exceeded the boundaries of their mission and should have took Atlantis back to Earth long before enemy at the gate, But it back on Earth now, no way is it ever leaving.

If they were never leaving then yes. Because that's a downer (or at least bittersweet) ending. A downer ending shouldn't be treated like a happy ending because it isn't one. But then, Enemy at the Gate was obviously never designed as a final ending to Stargate Atlantis's story.

[Snowman37]

Yeah'll really need to pay attention to the opening most.

Well I was going to start looking for this but stopped myself because I was afraid of spoilers. I sort of don't like spoilers, I mostly am searching for some answers and would be happy if you guys could help! SG1, SGA and SGU do they have real endings?

[knowles2]

Spoiler:

There was nothing in the show that ever indicated the Travelers were (or had ever been) powerful enough to defeat the Wraith, especially considering that their most powerful ship was destroyed by the Attero Device, along with their first settlement and many of their people.

Yes there was, the fact they could survive an engagement with the Asurans prove that there technology and weapons systems were advance enough to stand toe to toe with the Wraith, remember the Wraith are nowhere near as advance as the Ancients/Asurans were.

The fact they could catch up to 304 classed vessel with a few a modifications, hint that they can match of exceed the speed of Wraith vessels as well.

One vessel was equal to two Vasmir vessels.
The only thing they lack was resources and ships to fight the war with the Wraith but we are in the same situation anyway .

And of course I say it's actually because their mission was more complicated that you are saying it was. Especially since the only alternative you're suggesting is that is was a plothole. Nobody on Earth ever ordered them to go home either.

They rarely if ever had the capability to bring Atlantis back to Earth, they always had other uses for the ZPMs they acquired. For example powering the Odyssey, Earth defence platform and Atlantis, it make sense with the first batch of three ZPMs they acquired, to t spread them out and spread the risk.

I am pretty sure if they had three or more ZPMs and Earth had no other uses for them, they would have ordered them to bring Atlantis home or to some place well hidden in the Milkyway Galaxy (the Furling cloaked moon would have been a good location.)

Missions change when encountering an endless army of life-sucking aliens bent on reaching Earth. It's silly to expect otherwise. And Weir and Sheppard weren't the only ones who could make the call. SG-1's mission was to retrieve alien technology too, if they had found Atlantis and brought it home I don't think they would have just stopped fighting the Goa'uld. The wraith are more distant but still a real threat.

They had no way to reach Earth, in fact only the actions of the team have enable the Wraith to even pose a threat to Earth. Given the current resources that Earth it make sense to limit our interactions to the Pegasus to a few scout missions every year until we can gather a fleet strong enough to take the galaxy.

There are any number of reasons to justify letting them go back eventually. The Wraith still want to find Earth, so assuming they will give up and never find the Milky Way is dangerous. Especially considering that they will be increasingly desperate to do so as their food supply dwindles. Atlantis can't stop them unless they are in the Pegasus Galaxy, and if they reach the Milky Way it will be too late.

Atlantis cant stop them, full stopped, the Ancients had dozens of Atlantis classed city ships and loss the war, the key to defeating the Wraith was never Atlantis. If you plan of fighting the Wraith then send a couple of hundred 304s an the war will be over in a couple of months, with the complete extermination of the Wraith.

There were sapient replicators among them. The human-form replicators were few in number but they still existed and constituted an "entire species."

An there decision to kill Fifth lead to a full scale invasion by the replicators, when we had no defence against them.

The Goa'uld needed human hosts to survive and I doubt that they could have done so with volunteers alone like the Tokra. The Tok'ra were very few in number.

Still we were no where near wiping them out. An with Tok'ra their civilisation goes on even if we did wipe out the Go'uld.

Spoiler:

The research on the wraith feeding now means there is now conceivably a way for wraith to stop feeding on humans. Does that mean it's now justifiable to destroy them for choosing not to use it?

They have never perfected that technology and what give us the right to genetically alter an entire race just because we do not like how they have to feed and live.

But at the end of the day I don't see how it makes much of a difference. If you are going to justify annihilating an entire people for their atrocities, then it really shouldn't make a difference if it is by choice or by nature. If any perpetrators of genocide in history were somehow biologically driven to do what they did, does that mean it's not morally right to stop them? Even if they'd somehow die unless they killed people?

But what give us the right to decide to that the Wraith do not deserve to exists, to have their own civilisation, we do not have the right to decide the faith of an entire civilisation an either would we have the right to wipe out such a population on Earth, we should find a way to co exist, for example the way those people gave the Wraith prisoners.
.

Plus, if you're going by sheer numbers, more humans would die by letting the wraith have the galaxy than wraith would by wiping them out.

I am not going by numbers.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend there is an easy answer, but leaving the wraith in to control the galaxy isn't an acceptable solution.

The problem is there is no other solution right other than wiping them out, which is morally wrong.

The entire species being completely destroyed isn't necessary for it to be genocide. Genocide has happened many times in our history, and our entire species weren't endangered because of them. The Holocaust, for instance, was a genocide and humanity wasn't threatened with extinction. The wraith have destroyed world after world after world, sometimes as an example. And even among the ones that survived, every planet in the galaxy has suffered a long history of wraith taking huge amounts of their population. Teyla mentioned that "the last great holocaust was five generations ago" meaning that Athos (along with virtually every world in the galaxy) suffered regular genocide after genocide for 10,000 years. And in between each one the wraith are still constantly slaughtering them in smaller numbers. That is what has happened and will keep happening with the wraith ruling the galaxy, which they still do.

Just like we slaughter pigs, cows, ducks, chickens for food and we will wipe out whole populations of chickens if they contained bird flu, in a way us humans are worst than the Wraith, because do not actually need to kill these animals to live, the Wraith for the last 10,000 years have had no choice but to kill to survive.

If they were never leaving then yes. Because that's a downer (or at least bittersweet) ending. A downer ending shouldn't be treated like a happy ending because it isn't one. But then, Enemy at the Gate was obviously never designed as a final ending to Stargate Atlantis's story.

It works perfectly fine as an ending and it a better ending than I think the writers would have came up with if they had a whole 6th season or a film series.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Spoiler:

There was no point in the show where any character even hinted that the travelers were now a serious threat to the wraith domination. Having decent technology isn't enough, especially since they've never been strong enough to challenge them before at any time in history. The wraith also are advanced enough to stand up to asuran vessels and did so with fewer casualties in the Battle of Asuras. They also destroyed the Pegasus Asgard's original vessels where were more advanced than the ones the traveler ship did. The Travelers ability to survive as long as they have has been by outrunning or avoiding wraith.

They rarely if ever had the capability to bring Atlantis back to Earth, they always had other uses for the ZPMs they acquired. For example powering the Odyssey, Earth defence platform and Atlantis, it make sense with the first batch of three ZPMs they acquired, to t spread them out and spread the risk.

I am pretty sure if they had three or more ZPMs and Earth had no other uses for them, they would have ordered them to bring Atlantis home or to some place well hidden in the Milkyway Galaxy (the Furling cloaked moon would have been a good location.)

You admitted earlier that it didn't make sense for Atlantis not to go back when they had the ZPMs to do so. They had 3 after The Return and could have easily taken the ship home with power to spare. And they would have been able to use Atlantis to help against the Ori invasion. The only reason they would have to stay is to fight the wraith.

They had no way to reach Earth, in fact only the actions of the team have enable the Wraith to even pose a threat to Earth. Given the current resources that Earth it make sense to limit our interactions to the Pegasus to a few scout missions every year until we can gather a fleet strong enough to take the galaxy.

Earth will never be able to take the entire galaxy by force, especially since they'd have fight in their own first. There's also no way to guarantee that the wraith will never be able to find a way to the Milky Way even if they don't have one now.

Atlantis cant stop them, full stopped, the Ancients had dozens of Atlantis classed city ships and loss the war, the key to defeating the Wraith was never Atlantis. If you plan of fighting the Wraith then send a couple of hundred 304s an the war will be over in a couple of months, with the complete extermination of the Wraith.

Atlantis stopped wraith attempts to reach Earth before, they could do it again if they went back.

They have never perfected that technology and what give us the right to genetically alter an entire race just because we do not like how they have to feed and live.

But what give us the right to decide to that the Wraith do not deserve to exists, to have their own civilisation, we do not have the right to decide the faith of an entire civilisation an either would we have the right to wipe out such a population on Earth, we should find a way to co exist, for example the way those people gave the Wraith prisoners.

OK. Here is where I think the crux of the matter is. The potential for the gene therapy still did exist. But What right to we have? The right to survive. Wraith feed on people. It's not just because "we don't like how they live". You make it sound like humans were making petty judgments on wraith lifestyle. I believe people have the right not to be murdered for food. Long term coexistence with the wraith is impossible. Unless something changes (like altering their feeding habits), wraith are biologically obligated to kill humans and therefore the two species are biologically enemies. There is no way for a human and wraith civilization to survive together without some seriously messed up practices, like sending huge chunks of their population to die in agony. Coexistence is impossible because of the wraith and their need to feed on humans. The wraith are what would need to change for coexistence to be possible.

Wraith are, by nature, killers. They are incapable of not killing other sapient beings to survive. That might not be their fault but that is what they are. That is what gives humans the right to put an end to that.

Truthfully, from the wraith point of view, I understand why they have a right to fight to survive (and even keep their identity) too, but that doesn't mean the humans don't.

The fact is, I don't believe in morally applying natural selection to sapient life, because civilizations don't work like organisms competing to survive. So I don't believe that humans somehow have no right to stop the wraith's endless series of genocide because it interferes with how the wraith naturally evolved.

But even if we were to just look at the wraith and human civilizations as just a part of nature with no moral consideration, then there would be nothing wrong with annihilating the wraith at all. Species go extinct all the time due to natural selection, and if humans killed all the wraith by fighting to survive, it wouldn't be any different than wraith killing humans to survive.

I am not going by numbers.

Saving the most lives is not important?

The problem is there is no other solution right other than wiping them out, which is morally wrong.

Perhaps so, but allowing them to continue to feed on humans is a worse choice. If, hypothetically, the only two options were to wipe out the wraith or let them continue to slaughter humans, wiping them out is the lesser of two evils. And the gene therapy isn't a morally perfect choice either but it's better than either of the other two options.

Just like we slaughter pigs, cows, ducks, chickens for food and we will wipe out whole populations of chickens if they contained bird flu, in a way us humans are worst than the Wraith, because do not actually need to kill these animals to live, the Wraith for the last 10,000 years have had no choice but to kill to survive.

If you really consider the killing of poultry and cattle the moral equivalent of the atrocities over human history, I don't know what to tell you. Obviously we're working from two fundamentally different frameworks.

If the wraith have the right to kill enough humans to survive, humans have the right to kill enough wraith to survive. Or are you saying that wraith killing humans is OK, because they need to do it to survive but humans killing wraith to survive is morally wrong? The fact that wraith need to leave some humans to survive, doesn't change the fact they they need to kill them.

As such I don't believe that an ending that amounts to "We've saved Earth but we've abandoned the people of the Pegasus Galaxy to suffer and die at the hands of the wraith" warrants a happy picture of San Fransisco to close out on.

[Snowman37]

I say again...

Yeah'll really need to pay attention to the opening most.

Well I was going to start looking for this but stopped myself because I was afraid of spoilers. I sort of don't like spoilers, I mostly am searching for some answers and would be happy if you guys could help! SG1, SGA and SGU do they have real endings?

It's not nice to hijack someone's thread.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

The argument we're having is mostly confined to spoiler tags. And the OP's question was already answered.

[Terra Atlantus]

The argument we're having is mostly confined to spoiler tags. And the OP's question was already answered.

There's still spoilers, like post #6, if you don't wish to know any details that's a giveaway of some sort.

Why can't you have your argument in the Atlantis section instead?

[Infinite-Possibilities]

I intended that as more like answering the original question of if Atlantis and Universe had and ending, but fine sure.

[Snowman37]

The original poster wanted to know if the shows had endings. He doesn't want to know how they end.

[Flyboy]

The original poster wanted to know if the shows had endings. He doesn't want to know how they end.

Then the answer is yes.

[Snowman37]

I already answered him thoroughly in the thread's second post.