Tollans

[NoxBoy]

New user here! Hi, everyone!

So, I was re-watching StarGate: SG1's first-season episode "Enigma" and was a bit perplexed by them.

I understand that it was theorized by Daniel Jackson that the Tollans are a race hundreds of years more advanced than the Tau'ri because they may not have experienced the set-backs we did with our Dark Ages. The Tollans developed their technologies and made greater advances than we did and lived in relative isolation from the rest of the galaxy. In fact, when Hammond asked the Tollans about the Goa'uld, the Tollans simply replied that they were "aware of them" but did not interact.

But I thought all humans were "seeded" throughout the Milky Way by the Goa'uld? Wouldn't the Tollans have to have some kind of history of the Goa'uld and not just be simply aware of the Goa'uld? And wouldn't the Goa'uld have noticed the Tollan at some point during the Tollan's first travels onto other planets and have attempted to eliminate the threat, much like they did with the Tau'ri?

What's more, I find it hard to believe that a technologically advanced race like the Tollan, being presented with the planet of their evolutionary origins, would not be the least bit curious about the planet, our history, and humans, in general.

Maybe they were a second group of humans seeded on another planet by the Ancients, evolving independently of the Tau'ri?

[escyos]

New user here! Hi, everyone!

So, I was re-watching StarGate: SG1's first-season episode "Enigma" and was a bit perplexed by them.

I understand that it was theorized by Daniel Jackson that the Tollans are a race hundreds of years more advanced than the Tau'ri because they may not have experienced the set-backs we did with our Dark Ages. The Tollans developed their technologies and made greater advances than we did and lived in relative isolation from the rest of the galaxy. In fact, when Hammond asked the Tollans about the Goa'uld, the Tollans simply replied that they were "aware of them" but did not interact.

But I thought all humans were "seeded" throughout the Milky Way by the Goa'uld? Wouldn't the Tollans have to have some kind of history of the Goa'uld and not just be simply aware of the Goa'uld? And wouldn't the Goa'uld have noticed the Tollan at some point during the Tollan's first travels onto other planets and have attempted to eliminate the threat, much like they did with the Tau'ri?

What's more, I find it hard to believe that a technologically advanced race like the Tollan, being presented with the planet of their evolutionary origins, would not be the least bit curious about the planet, our history, and humans, in general.

Maybe they were a second group of humans seeded on another planet by the Ancients, evolving independently of the Tau'ri?

The Tollan may have been abandoned thousands of years ago and had to fend for themselves. The Tollan may have been more cautious when using the gate, if they used it at all, and kept out of the Goa'uld's way. Plus they may have had access to other technology such as Ancient, Furling etc and been able to advance so much. The Tollan may not have been aware that Earth was their ancestors home and they may not have even cared at all.

[D Toccs]

But I thought all humans were "seeded" throughout the Milky Way by the Goa'uld? Wouldn't the Tollans have to have some kind of history of the Goa'uld and not just be simply aware of the Goa'uld?

Pretty much every culture we have seen of advanced Humans in the Milky Way had long since forgotten about how they came to arrive on their planet. Earth, Tagrea, Langara, Tegalus, Euronda and many others. So it would not be unusual for the Tollan to not have records of being brought to their homeworld by the Goa''uld.
That being said, we don't know that they don't have such records.

What's more, I find it hard to believe that a technologically advanced race like the Tollan, being presented with the planet of their evolutionary origins, would not be the least bit curious about the planet, our history, and humans, in general.

Nothing in the episode suggests that they were ever aware that Earth was the planet which Humans first evolved on.

The Tollans developed their technologies and made greater advances than we did and lived in relative isolation from the rest of the galaxy. In fact, when Hammond asked the Tollans about the Goa'uld, the Tollans simply replied that they were "aware of them" but did not interact.
....
And wouldn't the Goa'uld have noticed the Tollan at some point during the Tollan's first travels onto other planets and have attempted to eliminate the threat, much like they did with the Tau'ri?

I think that the Tollan were probably very sparing with their use of the Stargate, given that they possessed their own spaceships. Add to that their initial experience of interstellar contact which resulted in the destruction of a civilization.
We know that they were friends with the Tok'ra and shared their technology freely with them. It is possible that they learned much about the nature of the Goa'uld and Jaffa and the inhabitants of the galaxy from the Tok'ra. Given their attitude towards more primitive cultures and their unwillingness to fight a war with the Goa'uld, from their point of view the galaxy at large would have very little to offer them.

The fact that when faced with extinction the Tollan chose to relocate their civilization to a world without a Stargate gives a great insight into their attitude towards gate travel.

[SaberBlade]

While it is always possible that Ancients intended for humans to evolve on other worlds, I doubt it. Earth was their home, so it makes sense that while they'd seed life on other worlds, Earth would be special for them and as such they'd use it to recreate their own race.

As for Tollans, not every world SG1 has visited has known of the Goa'uld, known they were seeded there from Earth but even if some of the history was kept (like worshipping a Goa'uld as a God) they didn't know that their God was an alien.

This may have been the same for the Tollan. However, Omoc was trying to be a bit of an ass as possible in order to make the SGC have no interest in them which failed, as once Maybourne knew of their capabilities, he was ready to exploit them for all their worth. He seemed to be purposefully vague in his answers and also tried to make sure that none of his people gave too much away.

Unfortunately, the biggest problem with the Tollan was the writers desire to keep Earth limited in their capabilities. It's too common, that anyone with advanced technology comes off as a bit of an overbearing ass at times yet seem to get on great with everyone else.

Tok'ra thought humans weren't helpful due to technology, Tollan thought it too, but they both seemed to get on great together. The Nox even helped build the Tollan a gate but SG1 get "the young do not always do as they are told"

[D Toccs]

Tok'ra thought humans weren't helpful due to technology, Tollan thought it too, but they both seemed to get on great together. The Nox even helped build the Tollan a gate but SG1 get "the young do not always do as they are told"

The Nox helping the Tollan and not Earth is justified. The Tollan are highly advanced and share the Nox/Asgard/Ancient ideology of not interfering with the development of less advanced worlds.
The Tollan were much more deserving of being The Fifth Race then Earth ever were.

By contrast, Earth came to the Nox world for the same reason as the Goa'uld, to capture a Fenri to try and figure out it's stealth secrets.
The Asgard provided Earth with all sorts of advanced non aggressive technologies for the 304, and on the very first time out of the dock Caldwell and Sheppard turned the beam transporters into a weapon.

[tomaso88]

most likely they were used and then forgot about

[SaberBlade]

I know it's justified, but it further shows why the Tollan acted like they did. They showed little interest in order to protect humans from their advancement. NoxBoy believed the Tollan showed no interest because they may be another subset of Alterans like Humans/Ori followers but I think Nox and Tok'ra being friendly with the Tollan shows they are more interested in non interference (as you said).

As for the Tollan being The Fifth Race, no chance. Being considered part of the Alliance isn't just about technology, it's also about ideology. SG1 and the SGC showed that Humans are willing to defend those who can't defend themselves, have principals and ideals that aren't just about "it's evil, kill it". The Tollan had the power to destroy Goa'uld Motherships and did nothing. SG1 have tried to defend people using two P90s, a handgun, a couple of Zats, and a Staff Weapons, along with a few claymores and C4.

[D Toccs]

As for the Tollan being The Fifth Race, no chance. Being considered part of the Alliance isn't just about technology, it's also about ideology.

The Tollan are much more in line with the ideology of the Alliance of Great Races then Earth ever was or is.
Of the Great Races that we have seen The Nox/The Asgard and The Ancients, all three of them were firmly against sharing their advanced technology with less developed cultures and believed in peace and non interference.

From a technological and ideological standpoint, the Tollan are a better fit.

[SaberBlade]

How are they in line with the ideology? The Tollan don't care about anyone other than themselves, to the point their leaders would sacrifice everyone on Earth to save themselves. Narim was their real redeemer and I believe Omoc would have been the same (probably why he was killed), as he stuck to his beliefs that his people would rather die than let their technology be used for such purposes, but they still never got involved with the Goa'uld and their treatment of other humans and worlds.

The Asgard fought against the Goa'uld and created the Protect Planets Treaty, while also fighting the Replicators, and they fought the Replicators not only to save themselves but everyone else.

The Ancients fought the Wraith, again not just for themselves but for everyone in Pegasus and protected everyone in the Milky Way from the Ori (themselves, not followers) showing up and sucking out everyone's energies.

The Nox, they were a bit odd. They wouldn't hurt anyone in the defence of others, but they did have those awesome powers like teleportation and invisibility. The Nox are just pure badass though. They too went out of their way to help those in need, even if they wanted to hurt the Nox. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nox were like this because they seeked to Ascend but that would just take some of the fun away from the characters.

[D Toccs]

You're under the impression that the ideology of the Great Races was "lets be the galactic police and fight evil where ever it is !!", which it is not. To think it was is to completely miss the point of episodes like The Nox, Enigma and The Fifth Race.

The ideology of the Great Races is all about peaceful interaction, scientific advancement and not interfering in less developed cultures.

The Tollan did not "only care about themselves", they just refused to share their advanced technology with primitive cultures.
Like the Ancients, Asgard and Nox the Tollan developed all of their advanced technologies by their own means. They were light years ahead of Earth technologically and they did it themselves.

Earth even at it's current level has simply scavenged a bunch of Ancient and Goa'uld tech which they don't fully understand and made use of it, blowing up solar systems and provoking powerful enemies along the way.
As soon as Earth got it's hands on a few shiny toys they immediately set about "taking democracy to the stars" while simultaneously lying to their own people.
The Asgard gave Earth a beam transporter and the very first thing Earth ever did with it was to use it as a WMD.

If there were to be a Heliopolis style meeting of the Great Races that included Earth. The Earth representative would be demanding advanced weapons from the others to help exterminate some race they disagree with and then calling them arrogant or cowards for not assisting.

[boyd22]

New user here! Hi, everyone!

So, I was re-watching StarGate: SG1's first-season episode "Enigma" and was a bit perplexed by them.

I understand that it was theorized by Daniel Jackson that the Tollans are a race hundreds of years more advanced than the Tau'ri because they may not have experienced the set-backs we did with our Dark Ages. The Tollans developed their technologies and made greater advances than we did and lived in relative isolation from the rest of the galaxy. In fact, when Hammond asked the Tollans about the Goa'uld, the Tollans simply replied that they were "aware of them" but did not interact.

But I thought all humans were "seeded" throughout the Milky Way by the Goa'uld? Wouldn't the Tollans have to have some kind of history of the Goa'uld and not just be simply aware of the Goa'uld? And wouldn't the Goa'uld have noticed the Tollan at some point during the Tollan's first travels onto other planets and have attempted to eliminate the threat, much like they did with the Tau'ri?

What's more, I find it hard to believe that a technologically advanced race like the Tollan, being presented with the planet of their evolutionary origins, would not be the least bit curious about the planet, our history, and humans, in general.

Maybe they were a second group of humans seeded on another planet by the Ancients, evolving independently of the Tau'ri?

I read this somewhere awhile back, that the Tollan are 1 of the human civilizations that were taken from Earth by the Race that made the crystal skull. Not sure where i read it or if its even part of SG canon.

After searching, it was stargate wikia that i read that and it appears that its not part of sg canon.

[SaberBlade]

The Tollan came under threat from Anubis (unknown at the time it was Anubis), and their great plan to save themselves was secretly sending a bomb through the SGC iris using their phasing technology and kill everyone, while creating more of the weapons to be used on God knows who. And to top it off, they were doing it secret without the knowledge of their people. Not exactly Fifth Race material.

As for policing the galaxy, Asgard went up against the Goa'uld for a while, but the Replicators were their biggest threat. Ancients went up against the Wraith and also kept the Ori out of the Milky Way and SGC/SG1 went up against the Ori followers, wiped out the Ori and the Replicators, each time using stuff they boosted from the Ancients. When it's their own interest, non interference doesn't mean anything.

Heliopolis may have been about peaceful interaction, scientific advancement and not interfering in less developed cultures, but Humans on Earth became the Fifth Race because they broke all those rules.

They destroyed the Replicators using Ancient tech, killed the Ori using Ancient tech, built their ships based on Asgard and Goa'uld tech, their weapons, shields and engines are based on Asgard tech (formerly Goa'uld) so scientific advancement wasn't a reason. Fought the Ori followers, the Goa'uld and the Jaffa, fought against the Replicators, had minor skirmishes with other races so it's definitely not about being peaceful. As for interference, they went around telling everyone who'd listen the Goa'uld aren't Gods, they shouldn't follow them or believe in them, they did the same with the Ori so they interfered a lot. Even on occasion, told people the Asgard weren't Gods and that other races should change their ways because they (SG1) didn't like it. So they weren't the Fifth Race because of not getting involved.

It was the fact they got involved, defended those who couldn't defend themselves and were willing to risk everything for the greater good that earned them the title of Fifth Race, it was their belief in what they were doing that did.

[D Toccs]

@ SabreBlade

You and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.

[traylormatt]

You're under the impression that the ideology of the Great Races was "lets be the galactic police and fight evil where ever it is !!", which it is not. To think it was is to completely miss the point of episodes like The Nox, Enigma and The Fifth Race.

The ideology of the Great Races is all about peaceful interaction, scientific advancement and not interfering in less developed cultures.

The Tollan did not "only care about themselves", they just refused to share their advanced technology with primitive cultures.
Like the Ancients, Asgard and Nox the Tollan developed all of their advanced technologies by their own means. They were light years ahead of Earth technologically and they did it themselves.

Earth even at it's current level has simply scavenged a bunch of Ancient and Goa'uld tech which they don't fully understand and made use of it, blowing up solar systems and provoking powerful enemies along the way.
As soon as Earth got it's hands on a few shiny toys they immediately set about "taking democracy to the stars" while simultaneously lying to their own people.
The Asgard gave Earth a beam transporter and the very first thing Earth ever did with it was to use it as a WMD.

If there were to be a Heliopolis style meeting of the Great Races that included Earth. The Earth representative would be demanding advanced weapons from the others to help exterminate some race they disagree with and then calling them arrogant or cowards for not assisting.

So to be part of the great races you need to have peaceful interaction, scientific advancement and not interfere with the less developed?

Lets see.

Ancients (not ascended) - not only do they interfere with those less developed, they create them, if that is not the ultimate way to interfere I don't know what is. They also made those computer game based things where they could communicate with the people and act as some kind of god like things communicating to them what they should do. (I know earth went and took it too far but still shows ancients did interfere). They tried to save Pegasus galaxy after the Wraith arrived . Though they were trying to save themselves, they could have just up and left, but they were trying to help. They also create artificial life then decide to wipe it out.

Ancients (ascended) - Oma has interfered god knows how many times even killing people to protect SG1 and that young boy. Helping people ascend even though they are not evolved enough. Fighting Anubis to help all of mankind. They protect the milkyway galaxy from the Ori. Merlin uses ascended knowledge to become human again and build a weapon to kill the Ori. Morgan Le Fay also comes and helps humans in Atlantis and again during Arc of Truth. There are probably more examples.

Asgard - They have protected human worlds for a long time, possibly because of their connection to the ancients and maybe this was even part of the alliance for all we know, to protect those who cant protect themselves, which could explain the Asgard not just simply wiping the Asgard out but trying to stop them (I know it was also the replicators but surely they could have killed the Goa'uld at one time before the replicators came about, but decided not to). They help humans through their holograms to teach them lessons and help them along, try and put them on the right paths. Obviously have given us a lot of tech etc. They have "bad asgard" who use humans as genetic toys to help themselves.

Nox - Though they do stay generally out of the way and do not meddle, they still do some meddling. They obviously helped SG1 live when they were shot at the hands of Goa'uld. They mediated in the seperation of Skaara and Klorel, Lya was there, clearly being involved, taking an interest in the human affairs. She also helped hide an Ion cannon knowing it is used to protect the Tollan and knowing it can destroy and kill, yet chose to help one side, a less advanced side.

Furling - We know nothing of them.

Tollan - They take a role of non involvement, only concerning themselves with people who are more advanced than they are. They do not help those that can't help themselves. They separate from the galaxy. They are willing to kill all of earth to suit their own needs.

Not something fitting really for the other 4 races.

[thekillman]

ahem.


we only know that the Lanteans did the experiments.

second of all, the Anquieta seeded humans and then presumably left them to fend for themselves.

the Asgard made the treaty only to counteract the Goauld when they didn't have the power to defeat the,