what did the ancients ACTUALLY do

[Duskofdead]

your right

they only came back from the pegasus galaxy with the knowledge of building massive cities, great weapons and time machines

god how dumb were these ancients

I think maybe you kinda missed the point that ran throughout all of Stargate that taking some super super primitive people and showing them how to build trinium hulled ships and Asgard/Ori-level weaponry was almost never a good thing.

And if 2,000 years (or more even) separated the gap of time between the Ancients returning to Earth and Ra discovering the Tau'ri, the Ancients would have been long dead or ascended by that point.

[tinerin]

your right

they only came back from the pegasus galaxy with the knowledge of building massive cities, great weapons and time machines

god how dumb were these ancients

so after a hundred years of war with the Wraith and many more years being stuck in Atlantis...they finally run away and have the option to either go to war with another enemy that they don't know they can actually defeat or live out the rest of their lives in peace trying to ascend to be reunited with their brothers...which do you think they would prefer?

[Bareassedmunky]

your right

they only came back from the pegasus galaxy with the knowledge of building massive cities, great weapons and time machines

god how dumb were these ancients

Mankind has invented nuclear power plants; if you took 1000 people from earth, plonked them down on another planet where they have no resources, no infrastructure, no industrial complex and an existing enemy, would you expect them to be able build a nuclear power plant?


There is a big difference between the greatest achievements of an entire civilisation and what you can reasonable expect a few individuals to achieve.



(p.s. I love the general sentiment of your post - The ancients invented all of these wonderful things, how stupid are they?

[aarlin81]

And if 2,000 years (or more even) separated the gap of time between the Ancients returning to Earth and Ra discovering the Tau'ri, the Ancients would have been long dead or ascended by that point.

What 2,000 years? I'm thinking your math is off.

Ra: 8,000 BC according to film

Ancients: 10,000 years ago. Hate to tell ya but there is no 2000 year gap.

Let's have some fun. Rather than a rough time line, let's assume that 10,000 is accurate to the year of the Atlantis. We'll use the year the pilot "Rising" aired which is 2004 AD (or CE). 2004-10,000 is 7996 BC (or BCE). There's hardly a 2,000 year gap.

Again I'm sure that 10,000 was a kinda rough number. For all we know it may have been 10,001 years six months and 27 days before the date the Atlantis expedition step into the city.

[kymeric]

The ancients may have 'seeded life' but it cant be a coincidence that we look exactly like them, and given enough time evolve in exactly the same direction (powers and ascension). They clearly created humans with intent to make bipedal humanoids with 2 arms, a head, 2 legs and fingernails. Otherwise we would see a plethora of alien forms, not the same form repeated endlessly everywhere in 2 galaxies.

[Duskofdead]

What 2,000 years? I'm thinking your math is off.

Ra: 8,000 BC according to film

Ancients: 10,000 years ago. Hate to tell ya but there is no 2000 year gap.

Let's have some fun. Rather than a rough time line, let's assume that 10,000 is accurate to the year of the Atlantis. We'll use the year the pilot "Rising" aired which is 2004 AD (or CE). 2004-10,000 is 7996 BC (or BCE). There's hardly a 2,000 year gap.

Again I'm sure that 10,000 was a kinda rough number. For all we know it may have been 10,001 years six months and 27 days before the date the Atlantis expedition step into the city.

Since we have no hard numbers I wasn't presenting my numbers as hard fact. But honesty, the gap doesn't need to be even 1,000 years. It doesn't need to be 500. 100 years would be more than sufficient for the relevant Ancients to have died out or bred into the human population and Earth and effectively be gone. Also from the sorts of contributions they made in Earth history (some basic architecture, some linguistic contributions) it's more than evident that they did not want to "pollute" human development by introducing vastly more advanced technology into it. The Ancients came back to Earth essentially to die out in peace from the Wraith. Not to rebuild their empire.

Also it's not like Ra discovered Earth and then one month later the Goa'uld ruled the galaxy and had millions of humans enslaved. A few Goa'uld coming to Earth and taking human hosts, let's even assume there WERE ancients around and they were AWARE this had happened (both big assumptions, especially the first one) why should we necessarily believe the Ancients would have felt it was their personal obligation to prevent this? Remember the Nox's attitude about the parasitical nature of the Goa'uld? In that episode where Klorel is in triad on Tollana, they acknowledged the right of the Goa'uld to exist and their need for hosts in order to survive. That is not to say that the Ancients would have been "pleased" at a future scenario of Goa'uld ruling the galaxy with millions of enslaved humans, but I think people are assigning way too much omniscience to the Ancients to act like they "should" have foreseen that happening. We don't even know if the Ancients were PRESENT when Ra reached Earth.

[MIZA]

they play penuckle

[aarlin81]

Aaarrgghhhh! How many friggin' times!?!?!?! OK Duskofdead

dialogue Morgan Le Fay (from S10 ep Pegasus Project):
For a time in your history, yes, I was his rival. But we're talking about many thousands of years, Doctor Jackson, as you know. Things change. When we first abandoned Atlantis all those millennia ago, the Earth was so harsh, its people so primitive by comparison, there was no hope of living among them as Lantians or rebuilding our society. So, instead we spread out to many lands, some of us planting a few small seeds of civilization among the first tribes of man. Others making their way to the Stargate at your southern pole. Still others choosing to live the remainder of our lives in seclusion and meditation. Merlin and I both chose the latter path.

100 years would be more than sufficient for the relevant Ancients to have died out or bred into the human population and Earth and effectively be gone.

FACEPALM Hmmm, they had to make their way to the other gate? Check the bolded sentence. So it would seem they arrived back on EARTH through the gate at GIZA. This means that Ra had already found Earth, deposited the Stargate but the rebellion and burial had not yet happened. Of course this creates a HUUUUGE plot hole because the TV show moved Abydos to the Milky Way. So why didn't Ra just fly back and try and retake it??? Other than some in-fighting there isn't really a good explanation.

Your comments make the assumption that they were all gone bye bye when Ra showed up. Obviously Ra wasn't there or they went largely unnoticed.

A few Goa'uld coming to Earth and taking human hosts, let's even assume there WERE ancients around and they were AWARE this had happened (both big assumptions, especially the first one) why should we necessarily believe the Ancients would have felt it was their personal obligation to prevent this?

1. Do not interfere.
2. They were initially unaware
3. They were too few in number at the time
4. They were not equipped to deal with the Goa'uld and didn't believe they could have rebuilt anyway (see Morgan Le Fays dialogue).

We don't even know if the Ancients were PRESENT when Ra reached Earth.

As I just showed you we can be pretty sure that he had already occupied the planet at least for a short time.

[Bareassedmunky]

because the TV show moved Abydos to the Milky Way. So why didn't Ra just fly back and try and retake it??? Other than some in-fighting there isn't really a good explanation.

Because the goa'uld only invented hyper drive towards the end of season 1...hence why Teal'c was surprised when Apohpis turned up, and when asked about it, he said he was unaware of their ability to travel so fast. That part of the story was specifically intorduced to explain why it took them so long to attack earth.


On a side issue, what morgan la fay says only implies that they came through the giza gate, it doesn't speciffically state so. They may have come through the antartic gate, tried to settle but found they couldn't - so made their way to the antartic gate, and left. Admittidly, the word 'back' would probably be used in that sentence if that is the case, and I actually agree that it makes most sense for them to have come through at giza, but there is still a reasonable doubt.



The simple fact of the matter is, that these two issues came from the minds of different people, over 10 years apart to explain two completly different storylines. They don't pay half as much attention to cannon as the fans, so it is entirely possible for evidence supporting two different mutually exclusive points of view to be equally as valid - in life, there is only one truth, in fiction the truth is whatever is most convienient at for any given episode...unfortunatly

[kymeric]

Vala gave the age of the guaould empire as 5,000 years in ep 1 of season 9. She was a former host and would be in the know. I think this is a case of another retcon from the movie such as Abydos being in another galaxy or Guaould being grey aliens like the asgard.

[Bareassedmunky]

Vala gave the age of the guaould empire as 5,000 years in ep 1 of season 9. She was a former host and would be in the know. I think this is a case of another retcon from the movie such as Abydos being in another galaxy or Guaould being grey aliens like the asgard.

That may have been the age of the empire, but at what point was their emipre established - they may have been exploring for 5,000 years (the galaxy really is rather big) or spent the time waring before Ra took supreme control and the term 'empire' starts being used. It has been stated that at one point, different goa'uld had control over different parts of earth.

[tinerin]

Because the goa'uld only invented hyper drive towards the end of season 1...hence why Teal'c was surprised when Apohpis turned up, and when asked about it, he said he was unaware of their ability to travel so fast. That part of the story was specifically intorduced to explain why it took them so long to attack earth.

This is incorrect...in 1x21, once Teal'c realizes that they are onboard a ship instead of on a base he recognizes that the jolt they previously felt was a hyperspace launch...All that the episode shows is that Apophis found a way to significantly improve the existing hyperdrive technology...

[Bareassedmunky]

This is incorrect...in 1x21, once Teal'c realizes that they are onboard a ship instead of on a base he recognizes that the jolt they previously felt was a hyperspace launch...All that the episode shows is that Apophis found a way to significantly improve the existing hyperdrive technology...

So? My point about why Ra didn't retake earth still stands

[tinerin]

So? My point about why Ra didn't retake earth still stands

So your facts were wrong...I just corrected it...

[Duskofdead]

Aaarrgghhhh! How many friggin' times!?!?!?! OK Duskofdead

dialogue Morgan Le Fay (from S10 ep Pegasus Project):
For a time in your history, yes, I was his rival. But we're talking about many thousands of years, Doctor Jackson, as you know. Things change. When we first abandoned Atlantis all those millennia ago, the Earth was so harsh, its people so primitive by comparison, there was no hope of living among them as Lantians or rebuilding our society. So, instead we spread out to many lands, some of us planting a few small seeds of civilization among the first tribes of man. Others making their way to the Stargate at your southern pole. Still others choosing to live the remainder of our lives in seclusion and meditation. Merlin and I both chose the latter path.

First off calm down. I know you think you have an undeniable argument here but you haven't been doing a very good job of clearly making it, so don't get mad that people aren't accepting your interpretation as the only correct one.

First off, this quote above emphasizes the point *I* made that the Atlanteans, when they reached Earth, had no designs on re-establishing a grand empire, or modernizing Earth, or making Earth humans their special pet protected planet against any threats, or getting involved in galactic politics again. As far as I'm concerned the Ancients who returned to Earth were merely finding a safe haven to die off/ascend. The ones who *did* stick around because of "greater concerns" did so because of the Ori, who stood to threaten things (like they said in "Threads", Season 8) on the "grand, cosmic level", not small local galactic concerns like the Goa'uld.

FACEPALM Hmmm, they had to make their way to the other gate? Check the bolded sentence. So it would seem they arrived back on EARTH through the gate at GIZA. This means that Ra had already found Earth, deposited the Stargate but the rebellion and burial had not yet happened. Of course this creates a HUUUUGE plot hole because the TV show moved Abydos to the Milky Way. So why didn't Ra just fly back and try and retake it??? Other than some in-fighting there isn't really a good explanation.

Your comments make the assumption that they were all gone bye bye when Ra showed up. Obviously Ra wasn't there or they went largely unnoticed.

Look it's been years since I saw the movie and probably a year or more since I've seen season 1, is there some bit of canon to support that Ra was the one that placed the Giza Stargate? I admit that I don't know any canon saying it was or it wasn't, just that Ra/the Goa'uld used it. But we do have statements in other episodes that Earth may have been an important Ancient outpost, perhaps even their original "base" in the MW, because of the number of Stargates found there being unusual.

1. Do not interfere.
2. They were initially unaware
3. They were too few in number at the time
4. They were not equipped to deal with the Goa'uld and didn't believe they could have rebuilt anyway (see Morgan Le Fays dialogue).

Err well you just laid out the reasons I could have given as to why the Ancients didn't "stop" the Goa'uld.. I'm not sure why you think you're disagreeing with me here?

As I just showed you we can be pretty sure that he had already occupied the planet at least for a short time.

I'm not sure that's the case, unless you know something I'm forgetting that says Ra was definitely the one who placed the Giza stargate and that as soon as he did his "empire" was to the point of completely occupying Earth.

Remember, Ra arrived alone and dying and "discovered" a much better type of host (presumably better than the Unas) which could be easily repaired & maintained by use of the sarcophagus, greatly extending Goa'uld lifespan. So even if we have proof positive that Ra moved a Stargate to Giza, that's a far cry from saying at that moment he "definitely had control of the planet." Since Jaffa were created as a variant of humans and since Earth at that point was the only planet (that we know of) with human life, it's not like he would have arrived there with hundreds of Goa'uld and huge armies and just occupied the planet overnight. My understanding was always more that he showed up, discovered a superior host body, and then started establishing himself as a god--- he probably took his time doing this, maybe even posing as royalty or pharaoh at first, and over the course of centuries created Jaffa and the Goa'uld empire began. This process along with seeding other planets with humans for Goa'uld service probably took centuries at minimum, millenia possibly.

That may have been the age of the empire, but at what point was their emipre established - they may have been exploring for 5,000 years (the galaxy really is rather big) or spent the time waring before Ra took supreme control and the term 'empire' starts being used. It has been stated that at one point, different goa'uld had control over different parts of earth.

This is almost precisely my point. It's not like you go from "Not knowing about humans yet" to "ruling the Milky Way and enslaving humanity" overnight. The Goa'uld CREATED their empire by spreading humans around to planets that had naquadah, creating Jaffa, building armies, etc. The length of time between Ra discovering humans on Earth and the whole Goa'uld race switching over to human hosts and beginning to create human populations on other worlds is completely unclear. Ra could very well have kept the discovery of human hosts secret until he himself had built up an unassailable position, and then "inviting" the other Goa'uld to come join his empire. It's clear that many Goa'uld resented Ra and chafed under his power.

I think the strongest bit of evidence, though, is the fact that not once in the several conversations we've seen with Ancients who either were about to return to Earth, or lived through some time on Earth after leaving Pegasus, not one of them mentions the Goa'uld. They talk about the primitiveness of human society, but not once do they mention human society being enslaved or under the thumb of the Goa'uld or their development being hampered by alien oppressors. It seems like a rather important detail to completely skirt when talking about their time living on Earth after leaving Pegasus. You'd think the Ancients would notice if they returned and some evil alien race had subverted the use of all their technology and stargates and was using it to create an empire based on human slavery.

And regarding why the Goa'uld never bothered to re-take Earth, couple suppositions: no naquadah on Earth (not worth the bother), wanting to isolate their human populations on other worlds and keep them illiterate and ignorant. Since we know that the Goa'uld empire was built heavily around planets that had Naquadah, it seems that it was hardly worth the effort to send ships and retake Earth seeing as how we have statements that naquadah is not native to Earth (or was mined out in ancient times before the rebellion) and the Goa'uld had a whole galaxy out there to occupy them. Additionally Ra's ... embarrassed position after losing a planet to rebellion might have weakened his hold over all the other Goa'uld and he might not have been able to spare the forces to go on some vengeful strike against an irrelevant planet that held no wealth.