General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[stargate barbie]

i think mostly she doesn't stand up to him or argue with him, because she usually tends to agree with his opinion. (eg, the other side, until the end that is)
when she doesn't agree with his opinion, she makes her own opinion known. (eg Unnatural Selection, Scorched Earth). she'll still follow his orders, but she'll make it known that she isn't happy about it, either with a vocal objection or with a look.

as for seeing ship between jack and sam, thats just how i see their relationship, i love how each of the characters relationships work. if they suddenly decided to make it out as though sam and teal'c weren't good friends, i'd be pretty bothered about that too, because over the years i've seen them develop a great friendship. the sam goes for her friendship with daniel. i love how each character interacts with every other character. i see jack and daniel as having a great friendship, but often an antagonistic one. if jack and daniel started to agree on everything, that would bother me too. of course i'd love to see the two of them have more interaction with each other, as i find their friendship as much fun to watch as jack and sams relationship. i'm very pleased that they are showing sam and teal'cs and daniel and teal'cs closeness more lately too.

i too was surprised,when i first joined the online fandom,that some people seemed not to notice the ship between sam and jack, to me it was as clear as jack and teal'cs respect for one another. but hey, i'm sure there has been ship on other shows that i didn't see until much later than a lot of other people. up until around season 5 of the x-files i thought mulder and scully were supposed to be just very good friends. chris carter had always said that they wouldn't be "sweating up the sheets". i wasn't too keen on them changing that (among other things in that show, but this is NOT the thread, so i'll shut up)

[JaffaCake]

A 63 year old man loving a 15 year old girl is also a "forbidden" relationship. A farmer making love to a pig is a "forbidden" relationship. A 24 year old nanny getting involved with her 14 year old charge is a "forbidden" relationship.

As said, not all "forbidden" relationships make for good storytelling. The two characters have to make sense as a couple, for one thing, and for me, Sam and Jack don't make sense.

You have deliberately mis-interpreted my point with a "clever" mis-use of my words, taking them out of context. You obviously aren't interested in discussing the point, only in rehearsing your argument and scoring points. I don't think I need to explain what I meant by "forbidden" relationships, and if you think it was a reference to deviant sexual practices then that says more about you than me.

Drama is full of stories of people who fall for the wrong person (from Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet to classic films like Brief Encounter and Casablanca) and acted on those feelings despite the social/legal/moral conventions arrayed against them.

If you prefer your storytelling to be sterile, then so be it. I recommend the Uniform Code of Military Justice as light bed-time reading. Not much plot, light on characters but definitely no ship!

[ShadowMaat]

You have deliberately mis-interpreted my point with a "clever" mis-use of my words, taking them out of context. You obviously aren't interested in discussing the point, only in rehearsing your argument and scoring points. I don't think I need to explain what I meant by "forbidden" relationships, and if you think it was a reference to deviant sexual practices then that says more about you than me.

And if that's all that you got out of my post(s) then you obviously have no intention of trying to understand my viewpoint so I'll stop trying to make myself understood to you and go back to enjoying this thread.

[stargate barbie]

Drama is full of stories of people who fall for the wrong person (from Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet to classic films like Brief Encounter and Casablanca) and acted on those feelings despite the social/legal/moral conventions arrayed against them.

personally i'd go with people who fall for the most inconvienient person rather than the "wrong" person. i wouldn't say sam and jack are "wrong" more inconvienient, but i know what you meant. in fact i personally wouldn't say that their relationship, given the context and circumstances , is even inappropriate, just unfortunate for them. if they had acted on their feelings i might call it inappropriate, but not in the circumstances in which it was handled.
in fact, i'm not 100% sure that inconvienient is even the best word to use. hhhmmm....

[Dani347]

If you prefer your storytelling to be sterile, then so be it.

So, unless a story has a forbidden love it's sterile? Color me shocked. I'm tempted to try to clarify Shadow's point, but I'll refrain.

[JaffaCake]

For all the flaws the characters have, the members of SG1 are supposed to be "the good guys" As the good guys, and for Jack and Sam, as good military personnel, they aren't going to go against the rules, even if others are doing it. I'm trying to hold on to thinking that these two characters are more than their hormones.... Of course, that still doesn't get into the fact that, for me, the show hasn't done a good job of the ship, and I wouldn't trust them to do a good job. Not with what I've seen.

I agree with the gist of what you are saying. My feeling is that the regs are there, but so are the feelings. They are a significant part of the landscape that these characters live in, but not enough is made of that conflict between feelings and regulations. It's as if there were an elephant in the room but everyone's pretending it's not there, talking about the weather instead. What I'd like to see is Sam and Jack fighting their feelings, conscious of the regs, and occasionally backsliding or falling off the wagon. That's only human. Having said that, I hasten to add that I wouldn't want it to dominate the show. The focus should be on the team, missions, humor, cultures....

[Webbgirl]

Drama is full of stories of people who fall for the wrong person (from Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet to classic films like Brief Encounter and Casablanca) and acted on those feelings despite the social/legal/moral conventions arrayed against them.

There are also some wonderful Drama's without any romance, sexual liasons or sexual tension. Frankly, if a writer has to fall back on one specific plot device, they're probably not very well rounded.

[Eken95]

[QUOTE=ShadowMaat]

I resent seeing a relationship forced into being just because someone feels there "has" to be a shippy element. I also resent seeing a developing relationship (platonic or otherwise) forced into being something more for the same reason.

QUOTE]

I however don't see anything being forced. Personally I saw chemistry and sparks from very early on. We are told that it developed because people saw it and because the actors played it that way. I didn't see it because I was told it was there, though I did get asked that question once. I saw the ship because for me it was there and later episodes with more overt ship just confirmed it.


erika

[stargate barbie]

There are also some wonderful Drama's without any romance, sexual liasons or sexual tension. Frankly, if a writer has to fall back on one specific plot device, they're probably not very well rounded.

i find that part of the brilliance of stargate is that they don't fall back on one specific plot device. personally speaking i find the writers to be pretty well rounded.

[JaffaCake]

There are also some wonderful Drama's without any romance, sexual liasons or sexual tension. Frankly, if a writer has to fall back on one specific plot device, they're probably not very well rounded.

But it's a TV show. There's scope for many storylines and it's not like the relationship isn't there. It's just not being developed properly. The struggle between feelings and honor - that's the on-going story. But they're both honorable military officers so they can never act on those feelings. How cool is that? Or it would have been if the writers had picked up the ball and truly run with it.

[Webbgirl]

i find that part of the brilliance of stargate is that they don't fall back on one specific plot device. personally speaking i find the writers to be pretty well rounded.

I'm happy for you then. What I've been seeing is every Sci-fi show and movie from here to Kingdom Come 'homaged' to death and the 'tension' between the lead male and lead female. Can't forget the 'obstacle' boyfriend either.

I just feel like I've seen all of this before in a dozen places.

[Webbgirl]

But it's a TV show. There's scope for many storylines and it's not like the relationship isn't there. It's just not being developed properly. The struggle between feelings and honor - that's the on-going story. But they're both honorable military officers so they can never act on those feelings. How cool is that? Or it would have been if the writers had picked up the ball and truly run with it.

That's what JAG is for. Same exact premise without the alien and archaeologist tagging along. Also, one of the primary reasons I stopped watching that show.

There are good dramas (TV Shows) out there without any blatant ship. Dick Wolf has kept Law and Order going for something like 13 years. In that entire time, there was one relationship between the characters and it was done very subtly.

If the struggle of Sam and Jack's feelings is the ongoing story...I'm VERY glad I'm filtering Season 8 for non-ship episodes only.

I kind of thought that the ongoing story was exploration, discovery and kicking a little alien butt once in awhile.

[stargate barbie]

<snip> My feeling is that the regs are there, but so are the feelings. They are a significant part of the landscape that these characters live in, but not enough is made of that conflict between feelings and regulations. It's as if there were an elephant in the room but everyone's pretending it's not there, talking about the weather instead. What I'd like to see is Sam and Jack fighting their feelings, conscious of the regs, and occasionally backsliding or falling off the wagon. That's only human. Having said that, I hasten to add that I wouldn't want it to dominate the show. The focus should be on the team, missions, humor, cultures....

i think we do see enough most of the time (possible exception season 5) of them fighting their feelings and so on. i agree that they are a significant part of the landscape, but i think one or two shows a season that actually deal with the situation is enough, as character development episodes, which are obviously required to keep a show going strong. i agree that it shouldn't dominate the show, the focus should be on the team. but sam and jack are part of that team, so their relationship is an important part of the show, as much as any other characters relationships (on the team!) are. so i think they subtle shippy parts between them are as important as the friendshippy parts between everyone on the team. i like the occational mention of it, just to acknowledge that its still there. i'd like there to be more consistancy of it, instead of just having it pop up every once in a while. i think that irkes and confuses both sides of the fence. please correct me if i'm wrong.

[stargate barbie]

I'm happy for you then. What I've been seeing is every Sci-fi show and movie from here to Kingdom Come 'homaged' to death and the 'tension' between the lead male and lead female. Can't forget the 'obstacle' boyfriend either.

I just feel like I've seen all of this before in a dozen places.

hey, don't even get me started on the 'obstacle' boyfriend, cos i got plenty more to ***** about on that front!

i like the homages. every show pays "homage" to other shows and movies. i just think that stargate does i better than most, and at least isn't insulting its fans by trying to disguise it. what i see is a bunch of guys who make a quality show, and seem to have a great time doing it.
the 'tension' between the lead male and lead female could just as easily been tension between the lead female and one of the other lead males on the show if both hadn't been married for the first few years of the show. i did see some mild potential between sam and daniel in one or two episodes. kinda freaked me out in a luke and leia kind of way though.

having a potential romance on a long running tv show is just another way to keep it interesting. its rare when something like that doesn't develop on a show, and the show stays popular. i can't think of any show that's pulled it off. if it does happen on a show, and i either don't see the ship, or don't follow it, then that doesn't bother me in the slightest. this is one of the VERY FEW shows that i do follow ship on.

[Dani347]

it's not like the relationship isn't there.

Well, I guess now that they've decided to make the show As the Guiding Stargate Turns in the Days of Our Lives, I suppose it is.

having a potential romance on a long running tv show is just another way to keep it interesting. its rare when something like that doesn't develop on a show, and the show stays popular. i can't think of any show that's pulled it off.

A challenge! Okay, tell me what perimeters (sp) I should be going by (how long is long running? 7 years?) and I'll try to come up with some that managed to stay popular without tossing in a romance somewhere near the middle/end.

I kind of thought that the ongoing story was exploration, discovery and kicking a little alien butt once in awhile.

Me too!

eta: If single episodes don't count (meaning if the main character has some 'love affair' that lasts one episode, but it isn't counted as a real romance) what about Macgyver? He had his share of women, iirc, but no romance was thrown in as one of the ungoing stories, just to keep it interesting.