Why ancients create the wraith

[Coremae]

Huh??? Our Galaxy's been known as the Milky Way. or something similar to it, for hundreds, if not thousands, of years... I don't think it's ever been referred to as the "Earth Galaxy", which wouldn't make sense anyway, considering Earth takes up such a miniscule portion of the Milky Way.

We're here, its our home. Its our nest, and earth is the egg. So Earth Galaxy. Who cares about that milky way nonsense. Celestis, is the important world from that galaxy so its Celestis Galaxy.

[PG15]

How very homocentric of you.

[2ndgenerationalteran]

Earth is far from the most important world, we are a major player now but when the tollan were around they had potential to be the most important world. Dakara when it had its device was probably the most important world in all of stargate, but we werent called the "Dakara galaxy", just as Pegasus isn't called "Atlantis Galaxy" or "Asuras Galaxy".

[SilverRider]

We're here, its our home. Its our nest, and earth is the egg. So Earth Galaxy. Who cares about that milky way nonsense. Celestis, is the important world from that galaxy so its Celestis Galaxy.

*just raises eyebrow and shakes head* OI!

[Sicktem]

Is it so strange that a people's ideology is passed on that long and Merlin still harbored feelings about them even after he ascended. 50 millions seems irrelevant to these people since in all that time they remembered who they were, where they came from, what they wanted to accomplish and from whom were they walking away from. Its obvious enough. Even if the original Ancients died out, their feelings on the matter was carried on. So an Ori follower maintaining a secret society of a few people Who over time may have become thousands or even millions doesn't seem that far fetched. Why is it they had to destroy the alterans, maybe they were waiting for the right moment which never came. Its happened in our society many times. Or maybe they were constantly trying and the wraith was the final solution after the plague failed.

Merlin didn't seem to harbor any feelings towards them on his own. They made it seem that as an ascended being he became aware of the Ori threat, like all ascended beings in this galaxy were, and unlike them he decided that he needed to do more than just hide the Milky Way and hope Humans never screwed up and revealed it's existence to them. So, to protect Humans, himself, and his fellow ascended beings he came up with a plan to defeat the Ori.

They have said nothing to make us believe that they are all that aware of the Ori before ascension. No living Ancient we met who was not previously ascended has ever made any reference to them and there has been no reference to them in Atlantis' database. Also, no ascended being has directly said anything to lead us to that conclusion. For all we know, very little data survived from that time so their history from that time could be limited to one liners that don't go into great detail about who the Ori were and what really happened.

Even if they did know a lot it would make sense since they'd have computer records which they would teach in history lessons. None of the emotion would be there though. It would just be something that happened to their long ago ancestors that is over and done with and has no influence in their lives. Sleeper agents would not have those same records. They would have to pass things down orally for fear that recording anything would lead to them being discovered.

Obviously that's not a good method of passing a way of thought down through the generations and even if you want to make a claim that the advanced minds of the Ancients wouldn't completely warp the story, you have the issue of them living in a larger population. Those children would be going to school and learning conflicting ideas and becoming friends with those people who their parents want them to hate. As adults they would make many more friends among the "enemy" and so this type of environment naturally weeds out those with such hateful ideas. One of these children grows up to disagree with their parents, then one more, and eventually you don't have enough people remaining to continue the brainwashing. They'd have to all fall in love within their own little group, marrying an Asuran would result in them not being able to get away with brainwashing their child. And again, all you need is one person to reveal what their parents were teaching them or get caught and it's over. The child makes friends with his enemy or marries one and suddenly he has to come clean. The next thing you know you have a witch hunt to get rid of these people. Something that becomes easier when, again, you have people who can read minds later in their history (it would never last to that point thought). At best you can say the Ori came to the Milky Way just before the plaque and unleashed it on the Ancient population (not that they had been there all along) and then hid among the survivors who went to the Pegasus galaxy where they quickly created the Wraith. However, again, you have mind readers and...

Also, the plaque didn't fail. They never found a cure, some just managed to isolate themselves and left for another galaxy to assure they would never run into something or someone that would infect them. If these sleepers made the plaque and were among those who left for Pegasus then they should've just replicated the plaque on Atlantis and it would've been over. By the time they caught it, it would've already spread to whatever other ships came with them as they wouldn't have had very much at that time and would've been interacting quite a lot in their effort to rebuild. Creating a new species after the Ancients established themselves would've been pointless (the sleepers who specifically created the plaque [according to this theory] would've wanted to live so they would've isolated themselves and thus been among those to leave for the Pegasus) and much more risky. Plus if their goal was to use them to destroy the Ancients why not give them better technology? There's just too many things wrong with this idea. At least the idea that an Ancient accidently created the Wraith when he/she randomly experimented with an Iratus bug and Human DNA made sense even though the show clearly was not going with that as what happened. But, this sleeper agent thing is just way out there in the realm of poorly written and poorly researched fan fiction.

[Coremae]

Merlin didn't seem to harbor any feelings towards them on his own. They made it seem that as an ascended being he became aware of the Ori threat, like all ascended beings in this galaxy were, and unlike them he decided that he needed to do more than just hide the Milky Way and hope Humans never screwed up and revealed it's existence to them. So, to protect Humans, himself, and his fellow ascended beings he came up with a plan to defeat the Ori.

They have said nothing to make us believe that they are all that aware of the Ori before ascension. No living Ancient we met who was not previously ascended has ever made any reference to them and there has been no reference to them in Atlantis' database. Also, no ascended being has directly said anything to lead us to that conclusion. For all we know, very little data survived from that time so their history from that time could be limited to one liners that don't go into great detail about who the Ori were and what really happened.

Even if they did know a lot it would make sense since they'd have computer records which they would teach in history lessons. None of the emotion would be there though. It would just be something that happened to their long ago ancestors that is over and done with and has no influence in their lives. Sleeper agents would not have those same records. They would have to pass things down orally for fear that recording anything would lead to them being discovered.

Obviously that's not a good method of passing a way of thought down through the generations and even if you want to make a claim that the advanced minds of the Ancients wouldn't completely warp the story, you have the issue of them living in a larger population. Those children would be going to school and learning conflicting ideas and becoming friends with those people who their parents want them to hate. As adults they would make many more friends among the "enemy" and so this type of environment naturally weeds out those with such hateful ideas. One of these children grows up to disagree with their parents, then one more, and eventually you don't have enough people remaining to continue the brainwashing. They'd have to all fall in love within their own little group, marrying an Asuran would result in them not being able to get away with brainwashing their child. And again, all you need is one person to reveal what their parents were teaching them or get caught and it's over. The child makes friends with his enemy or marries one and suddenly he has to come clean. The next thing you know you have a witch hunt to get rid of these people. Something that becomes easier when, again, you have people who can read minds later in their history (it would never last to that point thought). At best you can say the Ori came to the Milky Way just before the plaque and unleashed it on the Ancient population (not that they had been there all along) and then hid among the survivors who went to the Pegasus galaxy where they quickly created the Wraith. However, again, you have mind readers and...

Also, the plaque didn't fail. They never found a cure, some just managed to isolate themselves and left for another galaxy to assure they would never run into something or someone that would infect them. If these sleepers made the plaque and were among those who left for Pegasus then they should've just replicated the plaque on Atlantis and it would've been over. By the time they caught it, it would've already spread to whatever other ships came with them as they wouldn't have had very much at that time and would've been interacting quite a lot in their effort to rebuild. Creating a new species after the Ancients established themselves would've been pointless (the sleepers who specifically created the plaque [according to this theory] would've wanted to live so they would've isolated themselves and thus been among those to leave for the Pegasus) and much more risky. Plus if their goal was to use them to destroy the Ancients why not give them better technology? There's just too many things wrong with this idea. At least the idea that an Ancient accidently created the Wraith when he/she randomly experimented with an Iratus bug and Human DNA made sense even though the show clearly was not going with that as what happened. But, this sleeper agent thing is just way out there in the realm of poorly written and poorly researched fan fiction.

That's assuming of course Merlin learned of the Ori threat after he ascended. I'm thinking he knew of it before hand. There is no evidence to suggest he didn't. Also, the entire idea about the continuation of ideology and the passage of time cannot be supported nor denied I'm afraid. Who would believe after millions of years the alterans would be still using the very same city by which they left their home. But they used it until ten thousand years previous. If its possible for individuals to do something as bizarre as that, then perhaps they would be as familiar with other things as well. Such as a few among them may have been followers of the Ori way of life but due to circumstances lost their teeth for battle, but some among them decided after many years that they wanted to belong to something other than logic and cold hearted science and decided to continue along the lines of a concept almost dead and forgotten. These ones created the virus and once discovered and expunged, another breed of followers cropped up once more after being exposed to the ancient knowledge of their ancestors trek along the path of origin. Its not ignis fatuus to think all that is possible.

[Sicktem]

That's assuming of course Merlin learned of the Ori threat after he ascended. I'm thinking he knew of it before hand. There is no evidence to suggest he didn't.

Yes, of course. As I said we don't know one way or another as they never came out and gave us such specific information, but that is what I got out of it with what little we observed. Originally you made it sound like we knew the Ancients (as living beings) harbored feelings against the Ori because of Merlin even though that proved nothing since we only knew him as someone who had ascended knowledge.

Also, the entire idea about the continuation of ideology and the passage of time cannot be supported nor denied I'm afraid. Who would believe after millions of years the alterans would be still using the very same city by which they left their home. But they used it until ten thousand years previous. If its possible for individuals to do something as bizarre as that, then perhaps they would be as familiar with other things as well. Such as a few among them may have been followers of the Ori way of life but due to circumstances lost their teeth for battle, but some among them decided after many years that they wanted to belong to something other than logic and cold hearted science and decided to continue along the lines of a concept almost dead and forgotten. These ones created the virus and once discovered and expunged, another breed of followers cropped up once more after being exposed to the ancient knowledge of their ancestors trek along the path of origin. Its not ignis fatuus to think all that is possible.

Passing technology down through the ages and brainwashing children in secret are two very different things. The Ancients made technology that could last for a very long time, how is that bizarre and what does that have to do with anything else? Use modern day Humanity as an example. We have cities like London and Paris which people have lived in for hundreds of years and could potentially live in to the end of our days. The difference is we are constantly rebuilding, tearing things down, replacing them, etc, and so although the cities have the same names they end up becoming different. The Ancients have reached a technological state where none of that is necessary anymore so they only have to perform some minor repairs here and there and when they do large building projects it's for completely separate outposts/possibly city ships.

I just don't see the connection, but back to the sleeper agent thing. You mentioned the plaque again, so again I will ask why bother with the Wraith when you can just release the plaque again? It's like having the perfect doomsday weapon that worked on all, but those who crawled into a bunker and instead of using it on them again once they came back to the surface you create a cruder weapon which takes ages to work and you fail to give that weapon the proper tools it needs. All the while all the people had to do was fly away again instead of fighting and they would be completely safe. Which ended up happening when the Ancients fled to Earth. The only reason they decided to try and ascend was because they were so distraught by the lack of technology they found there that they didn't want to start rebuilding their civilization almost completely from scratch. It could've went in a completely different direction.

Oh and the Ori don't seem like the type who would live as mortals just to try and destroy the Altarans. They seem like the type who would rather ascend as fast as possible in an effort to get ultimate power. Plus it's rather spiteful to want these people who disagreed with you dead when they were nice enough to leave you in peace. Why would you want you and your children to continue to live with them when you could be on your own? Their ascended conflict is completely different and shouldn't be used as a reason to justify a larger conflict than there while both were mortals. Now the Ori want all the power they can get their hands on and the Altarans are standing in their way. Before they simply disagreed and decided it would be better if they didn't live together.

[Coremae]

Yes, of course. As I said we don't know one way or another as they never came out and gave us such specific information, but that is what I got out of it with what little we observed. Originally you made it sound like we knew the Ancients (as living beings) harbored feelings against the Ori because of Merlin even though that proved nothing since we only knew him as someone who had ascended knowledge.



Passing technology down through the ages and brainwashing children in secret are two very different things. The Ancients made technology that could last for a very long time, how is that bizarre and what does that have to do with anything else? Use modern day Humanity as an example. We have cities like London and Paris which people have lived in for hundreds of years and could potentially live in to the end of our days. The difference is we are constantly rebuilding, tearing things down, replacing them, etc, and so although the cities have the same names they end up becoming different. The Ancients have reached a technological state where none of that is necessary anymore so they only have to perform some minor repairs here and there and when they do large building projects it's for completely separate outposts/possibly city ships.

I just don't see the connection, but back to the sleeper agent thing. You mentioned the plaque again, so again I will ask why bother with the Wraith when you can just release the plaque again? It's like having the perfect doomsday weapon that worked on all, but those who crawled into a bunker and instead of using it on them again once they came back to the surface you create a cruder weapon which takes ages to work and you fail to give that weapon the proper tools it needs. All the while all the people had to do was fly away again instead of fighting and they would be completely safe. Which ended up happening when the Ancients fled to Earth. The only reason they decided to try and ascend was because they were so distraught by the lack of technology they found there that they didn't want to start rebuilding their civilization almost completely from scratch. It could've went in a completely different direction.

Oh and the Ori don't seem like the type who would live as mortals just to try and destroy the Altarans. They seem like the type who would rather ascend as fast as possible in an effort to get ultimate power. Plus it's rather spiteful to want these people who disagreed with you dead when they were nice enough to leave you in peace. Why would you want you and your children to continue to live with them when you could be on your own? Their ascended conflict is completely different and shouldn't be used as a reason to justify a larger conflict than there while both were mortals. Now the Ori want all the power they can get their hands on and the Altarans are standing in their way. Before they simply disagreed and decided it would be better if they didn't live together.

Belief in something isn't necessarily brainwashing. In their case and in ours. How many times in human history has long dead belief and ideals been resurrected by plebians at the time who sought to be apart of something greater than the sum parts of their modern or present society? Should we believe it is any different with them. Why must all those people given the opportunity to ascend do so when many probably deduced that becoming more than flesh may not only surpass death and mortal pains but also mortal pleasure and sense of accomplishment. Who is to say that in each society, the Ori and Alterans, all felt the same and agreed. Or would flaws and simple personal flavors make for more of a kaleidoscopic society than the ones you described. In all honesty I must play the advocate of Chaos, since only by examining the potentially chaotic affair of people in transcendence, can we truly appreciate their present situations.

[mckappa]

The Wraith evolved from Iratus bugs which fed off humans who the Ancents placed on their planets and in doing so absorbed their DNA.

Iratus bugs can also feed off other animals but it is probably only human DNA which they incorporate into their own.

Over millions of years and in combination with natural selection, the Iratus bugs evolved into creatures similar to the one's Michael made in 'Vengance' and eventually into the Wraith.

As the bugs fed off more and more humans, they became more and more like them and as they became more humanoid they eventually lost the ability to feed off animals other than humans.

It is unknown whether the Wraith continue to evolve and become more human, in which case they will probably end up like Michael's hybrids from 'The Kindred' in a couple million years, or if they have lost the ability to absorb their prey's DNA, in whcih case what they evolve into is less predictable. This distinction is very trivial however as it has to do with the Wraiths' fate millions of years from now, if they still exist and if their genetic structure has not been altered by a treatment similar to the one developed by Dr. Keller.

Either way, the Wraith definetly evolved accidentally from the Iratus bugs and were neither created by the Ancients nor the Ori.

[Aewon]

Remember they were all in the same galaxy for some time. Why is it impossible for members loyal to the cult of Ori not to have went with the other Alterans as spies or at best saboteurs, when they left their galaxy millions of years before?

Maybe because the Ori were a primitive people at the time fighting with swords and axes? They didn't even know that the Alterans were technologically advanced.

[TrueLordOfNetu]

The main theory here seems to be that the Iratis Bugs feed on the humans and evolved into the Wraith using their DNA. I think that it seems more plausible that it was the humans who became infected with Iratis DNA during partial/interupted feeding and over a number of generations mutated into the Wraith. This would explain why there are still Iratis Bugs around now and why the Wraith have a humanoid form.

There's bound to be someone out there with a quote stating that was definately Iratis > Wraith but can anyone prove that my Human > Wraith theory doesn't make more sense?

[kymeric]

The wraith seem to have been an accident. Humans are cuz the ancients were lonely, and asurans were because they needed a weapon.

I am still open to the Wraith having been deliberatly made by one single really pissed off Ancient.

[thekillman]

iratus only creates hybrids shortly after feeding, if there's sufficient time inbetween then it wont work. hybrids are evolutionary advantageous, as it allows you to adapt. besides, they are good at protecting the iratus hive

[whitepinkbun]

Well i think of it this way, enzyme injected into person makes em semi wraith? well a vampire can choose who it turns in many myths, who knows maybe the wraith can turn humans into wraith if they wanted to but why would they when they can eat em instead? xD

[QUOTE=Coremae;6933761]I've always said that followers of the Ori created the wraith. How or why this happened isn't known but:

Another thing besides the whole not knowing of the many humans out there in the galaxies... why would they create a race that wants to and has to suck the life from there followers??... That'd just weaken em.

Hows this the iratus bug seamed to more be drinking the blood or at least had contact with the blood from Shepard in "Thirty-Eight Minutes" if that's so then there would actually be DNA absorbed that way and when a wraith feeds all though there victims are bleeding by the end of it (more likely to inject them with that thing they inject there victims with...) its more like they suck a type of energy from there victims then actually taking something er organic from them... no DNA gain? Another thing besides the fact they've mentioned that wraith are more iratus bug then human leading to believe its not the humans that evolved but the iratus bug theres the fact the humans being fed off.... well die...

We're here, its our home. Its our nest, and earth is the egg. So Earth Galaxy. Who cares about that milky way nonsense. Celestis, is the important world from that galaxy so its Celestis Galaxy.

You make me LOL inside. Reference one time someone in SG said earth galaxy please.

[whitepinkbun]

Belief in something isn't necessarily brainwashing. In their case and in ours. How many times in human history has long dead belief and ideals been resurrected by plebians at the time who sought to be apart of something greater than the sum parts of their modern or present society? Should we believe it is any different with them. Why must all those people given the opportunity to ascend do so when many probably deduced that becoming more than flesh may not only surpass death and mortal pains but also mortal pleasure and sense of accomplishment. Who is to say that in each society, the Ori and Alterans, all felt the same and agreed. Or would flaws and simple personal flavors make for more of a kaleidoscopic society than the ones you described. In all honesty I must play the advocate of Chaos, since only by examining the potentially chaotic affair of people in transcendence, can we truly appreciate their present situations.

Coremae here is one for you if they worship Ori why the hell create a wraith anyway it sucks the life from possible worshipers and with how they spread they'd take over everything less powerful then the Ori or not and if they defeated the ancients as these sleepers wanted them to whats stopping them finding earths coordinates and dialing and waa laaa smorgasbord the biggest dam candidates for worshiping the Ori ever all gobbled up think theyd want all that power wasted???