The Ancients Discussion Thread (Spoiler for all seasons of both shows).

[s09119]

Very wrong. Anything that Anubis could have done like an "old goa'uld" ends with "The Lost City", when "his will" would have bring him DEATH. The fact that he survives and is able to be in the situation of "ready to press the button that end the life in the enire galaxy", is because of his energy form for which the ascended are responsable. Not to mention that he has some knowledge from when he was ascended, unerased.

He kept some knowledge, they couldn't fully get rid of it: not their fault.

He was able to press a button that ANYONE could: not their fault.

He survived Lost City because they COULDN'T unascend him all the way (Oma said so in "Threads"): they tried, so I suppose you could partially blame them for that.

[Heaven]

the only one you can blame here is Oma for helping Anubis ascend
but then what right do we have to tell her who to ascend and who not?

[elbo]

Oma said this BS when she was helping humans to ascend. Adria ascended on her own. She knew what to do and she was highly evolved. That´s the point.

I think is exactly the opposite.

When someone is help to ascend or ascend using the technology, he can cheat some of the rules, but when someone ascend on his own, he must denounce the violence, to leave behind his burden or to be pure in spirit. This is clear suggested in SGA "Ephiphany" and other episodes not related with Oma.

[Heaven]

I think is exactly the opposite.

When someone is help to ascend or ascend using the technology, he can cheat some of the rules, but when someone ascend on his own, he must denounce the violence, to leave behind his burden or to be pure in spirit. This is clear suggested in SGA "Ephiphany" and other episodes not related with Oma.

true, but Adria had ascended knowledge from the Ori, she didn't ascend entirely on her own

[ciannwn]

to do what? save you from blowing yourself up?

If they saved SGC to reward Daniel when they were perfectly happy to see the entire MW galaxy (including the SGA personnel) destroyed to punish Oma, it means they have no genuine regard for corporeal life. I'm not saying they were wrong to save SGC. I'm just questioning their motives and considering whether or not they could have been regarded as pure in this case. We can't say with 100% certainty that the Ancients/Others collective saved SGC because it's not made clear in the story.

As for the Ancients saving the SGC, I've said time and again: they realized, after seeing Oma sacrifice herself, that sometimes, rules ARE meant to be broken on occasion, and stopped the self-destruct. Not as a reward, but because they saw that Daniel was right, and that sometimes you CAN interfere (of course, they refuse to most other times still... THAT is weird, I'll agree there.)

If they saved SGC for that reason it means they made the effort to look at a situation, weigh it up and evaluate it instead of hiding behind 'We can't do this because it's against the rules'. In my opinion there's nothing wrong with adopting a general policy of non-interference as a guideline and then weighing each individual situation up and making a decision on it. A really wise person knows when it's a time to intervene or not to intervene or just offer suggestions and possibilities which other people are free to adopt or reject as they see fit.

that's a seriously flawed interpretation.

I didn't make up the bit about the Ancients/Others collective being accused of punishing Oma through Anubis. Daniel says it in 'Threads'. I've quoted what he said in this topic so I'm not going to do it again. The scriptwriter put that in for a reason and TPTB passed it for a reason. Maybe it was there because viewers are supposed to question the motives of the Ancients/Others collective rather than assume that they must be 'good' and 'pure' because they're living on the higher planes.

the ancient don't owe us anything, it's not their fault we are pathetic corporeal beings who can't defend themselves.

One Ancient descended in order to develop a weapon which could get rid of the Ori. He was perfectly happy to help Daniel create it and deliver it to the Ori galaxy. This was Merlin. Morgan Le Fay now supports Merlin and confirmed that there are others who don't entirely agree with the Collective. I've already quoted the relevant bits of Morgan's speeches from the 'The Pegasus Project' so I'm not going to do it again.

Why do the scriptwriters clearly show that not all ascended Ancients agree with the Ancients/Others collective? Why did they have Orlin descend to help develop a cure for the Ori Plague (apart from it being a plot device)? What are we supposed to make of the fact that ascended Ancients are divided in their views, outlook, opinions and regard for corporeal life forms?

Luckily for the human/alien characters in SG1, some of the Ancients who ascended have a little more concern for corporeal beings than others. If it wasn't for Orlin, Stargate SG1 would have ended a bit sooner than it did because our heroes would have died from the plague.

if Anubis was going to destroy all life, it would have been his fault and by his will, not the ancients'.

Allowing him to operate in a non corporeal form was the will of the Ancients/Others.

it's not like he was doing it on their behest.

If what the scriptwriter made Daniel say is correct, Anubis's actions were giving the Collective something they wanted - punishment for Oma.

and they couldn't possibly use us as pawns unless they actually tell us what to do

Maybe pawns isn't the best word. I'll say 'expendable commodities' instead.

the Ori use people as pawns, the ancients just treat people as insignificant

And treating people as so insignificant that their lives don't matter is somehow better?

the truth is we can't tell, the Goauld we can comprehend, the Ascended not.

Are you saying that the scriptwriters and TPTB can't comprehend the Ascended when they created them and the Ascended do and say whatever is in the script?

that's why whenever Daniel is asked to present proof against the Ori, he fully admits he can't.

Can you please supply some details about Daniel being asked to present proof against the Ori and admitting he can't? Which stories, who asked it and what did they say? Daniel seems convinced that there's something wrong where the Ori are concerned because he went on a quest to find Merlin and worked with him to develop and deliver the weapon which might have destroyed them.

When someone is help to ascend or ascend using the technology, he can cheat some of the rules, but when someone ascend on his own, he must denounce the violence, to leave behind his burden or to be pure in spirit. This is clear suggested in SGA "Ephiphany" and other episodes not related with Oma.

In 'The Tao Of Rodney' we learn that the mental component is designed to get the brain into a certain state -

all I need to do is maintain an E.E.G. frequency of zero point one to zero point nine Hertz and presto. (He clicks his fingers, then gestures skywards.) I arise to a higher plane of existence.

This seems to require a lot of practice.

BECKETT: ...Rodney, the Ancients that eventually learned to ascend dedicated their entire lives preparing for this moment.

Sheppard tries teaching Rodney what he learned from his stay in the sanctuary while he was practising meditation. At the first attempt we learn that meditation does have an effect.

(The monitor shows Rodney’s E.E.G. level at 24 Hz. It beeps as the level drops to 23. Rodney opens his eyes and looks at John.)

Later on -

SHEPPARD (quietly, after exchanging an alarmed look with Elizabeth): Alright -- just back to the blue skies. Let your thoughts go. Concentrate on your breathing.

(Rodney lies with his eyes closed, concentrating. After a few seconds the monitor beeps and his E.E.G. reading shows 03 Hz. It goes down to 02, then 01. Carson, wracked with grief that his friend is about to die, turns his head away.)

BECKETT (quietly): Oh, my God.

(Suddenly Rodney surges up in the bed and grabs Carson by the lapels of his medical coat. He stares frantically into Carson’s eyes. As Carson gazes back in shock, the E.E.G. reading races up to 62, then plummets back downwards again. Rodney’s eyes roll up into his head and he drops back down onto the bed. Behind Carson, the E.E.G. reading shows zero and the message “No reading” flashes.)

Beckett immediately starts organising everyone into helping him save Rodney.

BECKETT (to his assistant): He’s not breathing. Quick, bag him. We need to get him on a ventilator.

WEIR: Carson, he gave us strict orders ...

BECKETT: You don’t understand. He just told me how to save him.

What's actually happened here is very interesting.

WEIR: Well, I just dropped by to show you this. (She hands him a computer tablet.) Your E.E.G. readings from your last meditation.

(Rodney takes the tablet with a look of distaste on his face. He looks at the screen disinterestedly, then does a double-take.)

McKAY: Oh, my God! It’s point zero three Hertz. I did it! I mean, I was in the zone! I could have actually ascended!

(Elizabeth smiles at him.)

WEIR: You said you were floating in a big empty space when the idea of how to save yourself came to you.

McKAY: I may have momentarily thought about how hard it is to rid oneself of ego ... and that existence without the individuality of consciousness would be pointless but ... Ooh! Now I say that, that’s probably what gave me the idea to reprogramme the device with my old D.N.A.

Fear creates agitation so it was only when the villagers in 'Epiphany' faced their fears and eliminated them that their brains were able to operate at the right frequency. Ridding oneself of the ego in this context could be detaching oneself from all the concerns of ordinary life so the mind doesn't keep going over them. I'm guessing we all know how hard it is just to get to sleep if our minds keep going round and round in circles because we can't stop thinking of something.

Adria was created by the Ori so it seems that her brain was able to operate at the right frequency for ascension because she had the ability to change its frequency at will.

As for the frequencies themselves -

BECKETT: OK, let’s assume for one completely insane moment that you are right. (Rodney smiles confidently.) Those frequencies are associated with near-comatose patients. No-one who’s actually awake can just will themselves anywhere close to that, no matter how bloody relaxed they are.

As I said earlier in this topic, it could be interesting seeing how Wraith got on with their own version of the Ascension Machine. They are a species adapted to hibernating so it could be a lot easier for them to get their brains operating at their equivalent of the right frequency.

[garhkal]

All ascended beings have the same enhanced perceptions but they don't all agree with each other when it comes to things like 'good' and how to behave.

Just as we humans all have the same perceptions but don't agree...

[ciannwn]

As i have said before, while some of what they have done may not be pure (what ever) or good to us, who is to say it is not to their enhanced perception of things good?

All ascended beings have the same enhanced perceptions but they don't all agree with each other when it comes to things like 'good' and how to behave.

Just as we humans all have the same perceptions but don't agree...

Ascended beings, then, are still very human in that respect. (Well, the ones that started out as Ancients or 2nd generation humans, anyway. We don't know if members of other races managed to ascend.) This indicates that ascension doesn't give absolute knowledge of what 'good' is otherwise everyone in the Ancients/Others collective would know what it is and never have a disagreement.

For all their enhanced perceptions, 'good' appears to mean different things to different individuals and they can even change their minds.

Maybe it's time to come 'out of story' in order to present a different perspective. Here are some suggestions as to why the ascended Ancients/Others are the way they are. (I'm not a Stargate scriptwriter so mightn't have got things 100% correct.)

1: All Ascended Beings in the Stargate Universe are fictional characters created by human scriptwriters. The Ascended Beings do and say whatever a scriptwriter tells them to in order to further the plot.

2: Having a fictional race of super beings with godlike powers is all very well but it wouldn't make interesting stories if they solved every problem - it would leave the SG1 team with nothing to do. The non-interference rule explains why the ascended Ancients/Others don't solve all the problems. The real reason why they don't interfere all the time has nothing to do with 'lofty principles' - it's because the scriptwriters don't want them to.

3: The amount of rule bending an ascended Ancient/Other is allowed to do before the others stop him/her depends on what is required for a particular plot. The rule breaking/rule bending allows the SG1 team to obtain information which would be otherwise impossible for them to get hold of. (How to cure an Ori plague, find Merlin, go to Abydos, know what the talisman on Abydos looked like etc.)

4: Some things are left open so we aren't exactly sure what happened or why ascended Ancients/Others behave the way they do. The scriptwriters are being deliberately vague here for some specific purpose or another. Various possibilities (which won't all apply at the same time) are (a) It gives viewers something to think about and even discuss in forums like these. (b) The true explanation is something which could be interesting for a future plot (c) It allows flexibility where writing stories is concerned. If, for example, it had been established that all Ancients/Others were totally good, had pure motives and shared Oma's beliefs about helping others to ascend, there couldn't have been the Anubis plot or suggestions that they weren't always good and pure from characters such as O'Neill and Daniel.

5: All their talk about higher knowledge and such is just a way of making them seem a bit mysterious. Ascended Ancients/Others in the Stargate universe aren't incomprehensible to 'lowly, inferior mortals' such as ourselves because human scriptwriters created them and understand them. How they're presented in a particular story might come across as a bit incomprehensible but only because the scriptwriter wanted it to be that way.

6: The Ancients/Lanteans who aren't ascended are presented as being flawed, thoughtless, careless and making big mistakes in order to create stories. For all their advanced technology and experience they were incapable of keeping track of everything going on in the Pegasus galaxy because it explains how they overlooked the Wraith evolving. The 'Tria' crew didn't think to take extra precautions where the Asurans were concerned because the plot required them to be caught out and killed off as a result.