The Ancients Discussion Thread (Spoiler for all seasons of both shows).

[ciannwn]

Who decided that plants were sentient or that those "other" animals were sentient? one group of humans.

In an earlier post I said "My mentioning the Jainists and animal rights people was just to illustrate how humans rarely agree about anything". I then went on to talk about how ascended Ancients in the Stargate universe don't agree with each other about everything as well. This indicates that for all their super powers and extra knowledge they're still trying to figure out things like what are good moral values. Oma, for example, believed that it was her duty to teach beings on the lower plain about the way to enlightenment and ascension but the Others didn't agree with her ideas of 'good moral values'.

I'm not a Jainist so can't discuss anything from the Jainists' point of view. If one did join in this topic, though, his/her reply to the following quote might well be somewhat unusual as far as many people here are concerned.

Not all forms of lifes are "sentient", meaning that they've reached a stage in their evolution in which we cannot treat them like lab experiments anymore, but respect their right to exist free and evolve free.

What if I asked you "Who decided what is moral?" What would your answer be?

Groups of humans decide what 'moral' is. Another thing I said in an earlier post is "Moral values' not only differ between cultures but can change over time within the same culture."

The same tech that the ancients left also saved us countless times.

Some of the technology which was left by the Ancients was useful. Other bits of technology weren't useful because they were failures. The Acturus Project was abandoned because there was no way it could work and Ancient scientists were killed trying to shut it down. Nobody can blame the Ancients for not finding the time to dismantle the project when they were losing the war against the Wraith. Some Ancients involved in the war ascended later on, though, so were in the position to do something about it but the rules obviously didn't allow it.

Nobody is saying you should worship asceded beings.

Some people, though, seem to have the opinion that we should never question the actions and attitudes of ascended Ancients/Others for the sole reason that they're ascended. They live on lofty heights incomprehensible to us on the lower plane so they obviously know what's best for us even though we couldn't possibly understand their reasons for knowing. As ascended Ancients/Others can't agree between themselves, have been known to change sides (Morgan Le Fay) and Daniel said they don't know everything, why should we just assume that they always know what's best?

We barely know anything on the story of how they wiped out the people of Velona. They could of only destroyed the evil veronans and Transport the good ones and children to different planets without memory. There isnt enough knowledge on what happend.

I have to admit that we've only got Orlin's own account of events to go on. Maybe the Ancients/Others did transport the innocent Velona people somewhere else and didn't let Orlin know. When we look at how the Ancients/Others let Anubis operate in his partly ascended form in order to punish Oma, though, their transporting some of the Velona population elsewhere is very unlikely.

If the Velona people had found that Ancient weapon lying around and planned to conquer planets with it would the Ancients/Others have exterminated them? Logic says probably not because the 'evil' Goa'uld weren't exterminated for using the sarcophagus derived from the Ancient Healing Device even though adapting this technology gave them a great advantage when it came to enslaving others. Why should the Velona people have been exterminated because Orlin gave them the device then? Misusing Ancient technology is misusing Ancient technology however it's aquired. If it's OK for other races to do it then it should have been OK for the Velona people to do it. If it was a capital offence for the Velona people then it should be the same for other races. The Ancients/Others' however, do want it both ways. They seem to think it's fine if corporeal beings misuse Ancient technology unless they want to punish one of their own for breaking the rules.

I am going to guess that there are some evil ascended Ancients but overall they are good.

The Ori came from the same race as the Ancients so, technically, there are evil ascended Ancients around. The Ancients/Others are, presumably, trying to be 'good' but they seem to be very confused about what 'good' actually is and how they should go about being 'good'. This makes them somewhat dangerous to have anything to do with. One day an ascended Ancient could give an SGC team helpful hints to find something and the 'Others' could decide to exterminate everyone on Earth to punish the Ancient who broke the rules by helping. If they could do it with one planet they could do it with another.

The Ori might be ruthless control freaks but at least you know where you stand with them.

On Childhoo'ds end, how do you get that it was cruel> If i only have X amt of energy to protect Y amt of space, would you consider it cruel to limit the growth of population so they all stay in the protected area? And if i remember the ep, THEY were the ones who came up with that rule, not the ancients.

I agree with you about there not being enough evidence to say this was yet another Ancient social experiment. We don't know how this world came to have an E.M. shield powered by a Z.P.M. It doesn't appear to have been general Ancient policy to build these on human inhabited worlds even though it would have been good for the war effort - protect humans from culling and you starve the Wraith out. Did the Ancients decide against this in case it resulted in Wraith genocide? We don't know but developing nanites to desroy Wraith from within could have resulted in genocide too unless they were programmed to self destruct as soon as they'd killed a Wraith so they didn't keep spreading.

For all we know, the children's ancestors could have been technologically advanced enough to build a shield using a Z.P.M. which they took from a device which the Ancients had put on another planet. The children's world mightn't have been their ancestors' home world either - as the shield had a limited range it's possible that the young people and children were moved to this planet and the older people stayed home. 10,000 years is long enough to forget things so instructions to limit population growth could have become garbled into a religion where ritual sacrifice at 25 was believed to keep the Wraith away.

[jds1982]

Who said the Ori sent the plague to wipe out the Ancients, it could very easily have been an Ancient experiment gone awry, or a naturally occuring disease.

[s09119]

Who said the Ori sent the plague to wipe out the Ancients, it could very easily have been an Ancient experiment gone awry, or a naturally occuring disease.

It's been pretty much verified by the fact that the "Fourth Horseman" plague was the same as the disease Aiyana had (the plague that wiped them out millenia ago).

[s09119]

The Lanteans. Based especially on SGA story, in which we learn more about them with each episode: from the type of species the created Wraith (by negligence) or Asurans (by purpose), the type of experiments they conducted like the one in "Hide and Seek", "Childhood's end" (come on is cruel), "Hot Zone", "The Game", "Sunday" even in "Trinity" (i think their weapon destroy the inhabitants of that planet).

In "Return", we see why they loose the war with the Wraith and how they don't put too much value on humans or less advanced civilasation no matter if they have a fairly good understanding of Ancient tech. They fail to understand that a war can be won not by technological superiority alone, but by making alliances with other races and using their strengths and tactical experience.

What i find annoying, is that what we manage to avoid all this time, 3 years, not giving aggresive species means to get to Earth and MW by loosing Atlantis, they manage to do it in few months to the first attack, which they threat it in their arrogant and sell-confident way, waiting them with the city shield down, not consulting us about our encounter, assuming that the Asurans have the same base code 10.000 years old. To make such mistakes when is your own life at risk is your problem, but to open the door to invasion of a planet and a galaxy, is not ok.

I continue to belive that the Ancients are dangerous to be around them. With great power came great responsability.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong:

1. The Wraith thing was NOT their fault. It would be like us creating some weird insect/human hybrid by sending explorers to an uncharted island. They would have NO IDEA as to what would happen, and you can't blame them for it. (I still say the info they had on the bug was entered AFTER the creation of the Wraith. After all, that would make them very interested indeed). As for the Asurans... I'll give you that, although the Asurans aren't really that much of a threat to anyone but us (And besides, WE'RE experimenting with complex AIs ourselves right now. The same could happen to us, but it's not as if we're TRYING to create monsters.)

2. As for your argument involving episodes:

"Hide and Seek" - What's wrong with it? They were studying ascension, and in their rush to evacuate, they forgot to release it. So what? It was in stasis anyway, and human scientists abandon lab stuff all the time if they're in a hurry. We do this as well.

"Childhood's End" - The suicide ritual was never put up by the Ancients. They established the shield, and it shrunk over time. The people on the planet established the ritual as a way to cope with the shrinking field... The Lanteans weren't involved.

"Hot Zone" - Again, we're experimenting with similar things. And before you say "BUT THEY KILLED HUMANS!", remember that the Lanteans were fighting the Wraith primary to defend all the human worlds out there. I doubt the nanites were created to wipe out the people they were trying to protect.

"The Game" - They could have been trying to see how to best govern the human civilizations they spred. And it's not as if the people suffered under the guidance of the Lanteans: they probably would have flourished if the Wraith had not forced them to flee.

"Sunday" - What's wrong with this one? It was a pretty good idea on paper: infect enemy troops with exploding tumors that would never be detected. When they rejoined their men, they would explode and kill them all. Just because WE screwed it up doesn't mean it's bad...

"Trinity" - The weapon was placed their to defend the Lantean scientists and the humans of that planet. A Wraith fleet attacked, they poured all the power they could into the weapon, but it ended up overloading. They TRIED to defend the humans, but it was an experimental device. Again, we do similar things all the time with experimental technologies: they can get away from even the smartest people.

3. The "Return" example is wrong. It's not that they thought very little of us, it was that ATLANTIS IS THEIR CITY. If there are Ancients out there, they deserve to live there, not us. And the Lanteans, remember, last knew us as hunter-gatherers, not a great spacefaring race that rivaled their own. Cut them some slack.

And they DID ally themselves with the humans against the Wraith, and they lost. I mean, remember what Sheppard said: If you came home to find strangers living in your home, wouldn't you want them out, too?

4. They probably DID debrief the team about their mission to Asuras, but figured that their safeguard would hold. I mean, if monkeys came up to us claiming they'd messed with our robotic soldiers, would we be all that concerned? THEY'RE MONKEYS, lower beings, so of course not.

[ciannwn]

1. The Wraith thing was NOT their fault. It would be like us creating some weird insect/human hybrid by sending explorers to an uncharted island. They would have NO IDEA as to what would happen, and you can't blame them for it.

As you said at the end of your post, we're just monkeys/lower beings to them. If they're so superior to us, why didn't they think to monitor what was happening on the worlds they seeded? They might have had higher I.Q.'s and the ability to build better gadgets but we can't say that they were superior to us in every way if they made the same kind of mistakes as we lesser beings do.

although the Asurans aren't really that much of a threat to anyone but us (And besides, WE'RE experimenting with complex AIs ourselves right now. The same could happen to us, but it's not as if we're TRYING to create monsters.)

If they're so superior to us, why did their nanite technology go so disastrously wrong? Again, it's the kind of thing that could happen to us monkeys/lower beings through our own experiments with AIs but you'd think a superior race would have known what they were doing.

"The Game" - They could have been trying to see how to best govern the human civilizations they spred. And it's not as if the people suffered under the guidance of the Lanteans: they probably would have flourished if the Wraith had not forced them to flee.

They apparently forgot to release these civilizations from the experiment before fleeing. This suggests that they had as much regard for the humans living in these civilizations as they did for the energy creature they abandoned in one of their laboratories.

4. They probably DID debrief the team about their mission to Asuras, but figured that their safeguard would hold. I mean, if monkeys came up to us claiming they'd messed with our robotic soldiers, would we be all that concerned? THEY'RE MONKEYS, lower beings, so of course not.

If the monkeys were intelligent enough to make claims and explain how they were able to mess with our robotic soldiers we'd be pretty stupid if we weren't concerned enough to be careful.

PS:As it turned out the superior Atlanteans were killed off by the Asurans. The city was then retaken and the Asurans defeated by monkeys/lower beings

[s09119]

As you said at the end of this post, we're just monkeys/lower beings to them. If they're so superior to us, why didn't they think to monitor what was happening on the worlds they seeded? They might have had higher I.Q.'s and the ability to build better gadgets but we can't say that they were superior to us in every way if they made the same kind of mistakes as we lesser beings do.



If they're so superior to us, why did their nanite technology go so disastrously wrong? Again, it's the kind of thing that could happen to us monkeys/lower beings through our own experiments with AIs but you'd think a superior race would have known what they were doing.



They apparently forgot to release these civilizations from the experiment before fleeing. This suggests that they had as much regard for the humans living in these civilizations as they did for the energy creature they abandoned in one of their laboratories.



If the monkeys were intelligent enough to make claims and explain how they were able to mess with our robotic soldiers we'd be pretty stupid if we weren't concerned enough to be careful.

PS:As it turned out the superior Atlanteans were killed off by the Asurans. The city was then retaken and the Asurans defeated by monkeys/lower beings

1. I never said they were superior to us in every way... And how do you know they WEREN'T monitoring the human planets? But there are HUNDREDS of planets that were seeded with human life. Have fun trying to keep track of all that, some things slip through.

2. Why? The Lanteans were brilliant and very smart, but the nanite experiments proved a bad idea, so they wiped them out*. This wasn't a case where they screwed up, just that they missed a few nanites on a massive planet.

* They thought they got them all, but a few TINY, MICROSCOPIC nanites survived. They did know what they were doing, the only reason they scrapped the idea was because the nanites weren't willing to fight for the Lanteans: they wanted to live alongisde them.

3. If your city is being attacked by a ruthless enemy, and you have to evacuate, how much time would you devote to warning the primatives three towns over to get out? You wouldn't. They, after all, were safe for the time being.

The Wraith were letting humans survive (mostly), and only occasionally came to feed. But they were hell-bent on annhiliating the Lanteans. They had no choice but to leave immediately.

And we don't know how many people were involved in that project. Stop thinking of the Ancients as a single entity. There were thousands, probably millions or billions, of them in the Pegasus galaxy, all doing their own thing. There could only have been TWO out of all of them, overseeing "The Game" project.

4. There were 100 Ancients in the city. There were HUNDREDS of Asurans. The Replicators simply overwhelmed them. The only reason we won is because we were sneaking around using disruptor weapons. The Lanteans (who had never fought Replicators before) were probably fighting for every square inch of the city with energy weapons.


And mocking my use of "monkeys" doesn't really prove anything. To them, we are pretty unadvanced. I mean, let's pit the entire fandom here at GateWorld against an Ancient force half our size. Who would win? THEM, obviously. They're smarter, have better weaponry, and are an all-around more-advanced civilization, in terms of both tech and society.

[ciannwn]

And mocking my use of "monkeys" doesn't really prove anything. To them, we are pretty unadvanced.

I wasn't mocking your use of the word 'monkeys'. You said that they regard us in the same way as humans regard monkeys. Are the Ancients really justified in thinking of themselves as so advanced, though, if they make the same kind of mistakes, have the same kind of disasters etc. as the 'lesser beings?

I mean, let's pit the entire fandom here at GateWorld against an Ancient force half our size. Who would win? THEM, obviously. They're smarter, have better weaponry, and are an all-around more-advanced civilization, in terms of both tech and society.

How many members of fandom at GateWorld have weapons of any kind? All I've got is an ornamental sword so I'd be defeated by a Neanderthal armed with a spear or just a lump of rock.

From 'The Tao Of Rodney' -

SHEPPARD: Look, we all agree the Ancients were pretty screwed up.

WEIR: We do?

SHEPPARD: All the ones I met were arrogant, condescending -- and not for good reason. They made giant mistakes and never fixed ‘em.

WEIR: They were still human.

Weir has got it right here. The Ancients were still human with the same faults and failings as the less technologically advanced humans of the 2nd generation. They were no more capable of seeing into the future than us ordinary humans. They were no more able to predict disastrous outcomes than we can. For all their brilliance they still missed a few nanites. If they really were monitoring the worlds they seeded and some of them slipped through it meant they made the mistake of taking on more than they could cope with. Alternatively, if they didn't think anything bad would happen because nothing bad had happened in the Milky Way galaxy it meant that they'd become careless because they were over confident that they knew they were doing.

Sheppard regards the ones he's met as arrogant and condescending. Maybe he got that impression because they behaved in a way which gave that impression.

Ancients were individuals like any other humans, though. I don't think Moros and Melia in 'Before I Sleep' could be accused of being cruel by not wanting Weir to return to the future with a Z.P.M. to save the expedition from being drowned. As they rightly pointed out, this would alter the timeline and even Weir's arriving back in the past might have had some effect on the future. Even so, they told her she was welcome to join them in their evacuation to Earth. Janis, however, who had built the time machine even though the Council had told him not to appears to be dazzled by the ideas that Atlantis is still around 10,000 years later and that a group of 2nd generation humans found it.

JANIS: Ten thousand years from now. (He smiles.) It should be noted that our actions have succeeded in protecting the city for so many years.

JANIS: We are about to evacuate this city in the hope that it will lie safe for many years and then, one day, our kind will return. (He looks at Elizabeth.) And they have. It is because of my experiments that we now have the opportunity ...

When Meilia offers to block the Stargate so the expedition can't use it Janis isn't happy with her suggestion.

JANIS: If they can't come, the city may never be found.

Then we get -

WEIR: Thank you for your generous offer, but we are explorers -- just like you.

JANIS (to Melia): Which should come as no surprise since they are the second evolution of our kind. Don't you understand? This city will survive ten thousand years.

Janis is obviously a brilliant scientist but he's so thrilled that the city survives 10,000 years and somebody's going to find it that he throws all caution to the wind and helps Weir behind the Council's back. This is the kind of thing we'd expect from Rodney not a member of a supposedly advanced society with aons of experience in using super technology. Janis behaves in a very human way and his actions did alter the timeline. The Atlantis expedition woke the Wraith up early, they're having trouble with the Asurans and both races are now a threat to Earth.

[s09119]

I wasn't mocking your use of the word 'monkeys'. You said that they regard us in the same way as humans regard monkeys. Are the Ancients really justified in thinking of themselves as so advanced, though, if they make the same kind of mistakes, have the same kind of disasters etc. as the 'lesser beings?



How many members of fandom at GateWorld have weapons of any kind? All I've got is an ornamental sword so I'd be defeated by a Neanderthal armed with a spear or just a lump of rock.

From 'The Tao Of Rodney' -

SHEPPARD: Look, we all agree the Ancients were pretty screwed up.

WEIR: We do?

SHEPPARD: All the ones I met were arrogant, condescending -- and not for good reason. They made giant mistakes and never fixed ‘em.

WEIR: They were still human.

Weir has got it right here. The Ancients were still human with the same faults and failings as the less technologically advanced humans of the 2nd generation. They were no more capable of seeing into the future than us ordinary humans. They were no more able to predict possible disastrous outcomes than us. For all their brilliance they still missed a few nanites. If they really were monitoring the worlds they seeded and some of them slipped through it meant they made the mistake of taking on more than they could cope with. Alternatively, if they didn't think anything bad would happen because nothing bad had happened in the Milky Way galaxy it meant that they'd become careless because they were over confident that they knew they were doing.

Sheppard regards the ones he's met as arrogant and condescending. Maybe he got that impression because they behaved in a way which gave that impression.

Ancients were individuals like any other humans, though. I don't think Moros and Melia in 'Before I Sleep' could be accused of being cruel by not wanting Weir to return to the future with a Z.P.M. to save the expedition from being drowned. As they rightly pointed out, this would alter the timeline and even Weir's arriving back in the past might have had some effect on the future. Even so, they told her she was welcome to join them in their evacuation to Earth. Janis, however, who had built the time machine even though the Council had told him not to appears to be dazzled by the ideas that Atlantis is still around 10,000 years later and that a group of 2nd generation humans found it.

JANIS: Ten thousand years from now. (He smiles.) It should be noted that our actions have succeeded in protecting the city for so many years.

JANIS: We are about to evacuate this city in the hope that it will lie safe for many years and then, one day, our kind will return. (He looks at Elizabeth.) And they have. It is because of my experiments that we now have the opportunity ...

When Meilia offers to block the Stargate so the expedition can't use it Janis isn't happy with her suggestion.

JANIS: If they can't come, the city may never be found.

Then we get -

WEIR: Thank you for your generous offer, but we are explorers -- just like you.

JANIS (to Melia): Which should come as no surprise since they are the second evolution of our kind. Don't you understand? This city will survive ten thousand years.

Janis is obviously a brilliant scientist but he's so thrilled that the city survives 10,000 years and somebody's going to find it that he throws all caution to the wind and helps Weir behind the Council's back. This is the kind of thing we'd expect from Rodney not a member of a supposedly advanced society with aons of experience in using super technology. Janis behaves in a very human way and his actions did alter the timeline. The Atlantis expedition woke the Wraith up early, they're having trouble with the Asurans and both races are now a threat to Earth.

Was there a point in there besides Ancients have human faults like us? I already knew that.

No offense intended, I just really can't see anything else. Just having our faults doesn't make them less or even equal to us. ALL species have their faults and weaknesses. It's how you work around them that matter, and the Lanteans proved they could overcome theirs, whether it be through the actions of individuals or the collective.

(BTW: I just remembered... Daniels said that the Others WERE the Ancients. And since we have seen zero cultures besides theirs that ascend in the MW, that probably means that a vast majority of the Others are Ancients, so I think we can safely debate them as such.)

[ciannwn]

Was there a point in there besides Ancients have human faults like us? I already knew that.

No offense intended, I just really can't see anything else. Just having our faults doesn't make them less or even equal to us. ALL species have their faults and weaknesses.

In evolutionary terms, are they more evolved than 2nd generation humans if they still have the same human faults and weaknesses as 2nd generation humans? Having our faults and weaknesses certainly wouldn't make them less than us but if they are the same as us where being human is concerned, exactly how are they more advanced than us?

Maybe I'm getting confused here. Could you please explain exactly what you meant by the following -

4. They probably DID debrief the team about their mission to Asuras, but figured that their safeguard would hold. I mean, if monkeys came up to us claiming they'd messed with our robotic soldiers, would we be all that concerned? THEY'RE MONKEYS, lower beings, so of course not.

To me this reads that the Ancients weren't all that concerned about what the expedition did with the Asurans because they regard 2nd generation humans in the same way that we regard monkeys.

It's how you work around them that matter, and the Lanteans proved they could overcome theirs, whether it be through the actions of individuals or the collective.

How did the Lanteans overcome their faults and weaknesses through the actions of individuals or the collective? Why were they more successful in this respect than the SG1 team or Teal'c and Bra'tac? Egeria, the Goa'uld Queen, realised that the Goa'uld's behaviour was wrong and became the mother of the Tok'ra. Isn't that overcoming faults and failings?

To go back to another quote from an earlier post of yours.

I mean, let's pit the entire fandom here at GateWorld against an Ancient force half our size. Who would win? THEM, obviously. They're smarter, have better weaponry, and are an all-around more-advanced civilization, in terms of both tech and society.

If the entire fandom here at GateWorld was pitted against a Goa'uld force half our size, who would win? If we were all pitted against one Ori Prior, who would win? I can't see us doing too well against a force of Wraith either. Are you saying that Goa'uld, Ori Priors and Wraith would be justified in regarding humans in the same way that we regard monkey because they have better technology and bigger guns?

PS: What do you think of Sheppard's views concerning the Ancients?

SHEPPARD: Look, we all agree the Ancients were pretty screwed up.

SHEPPARD: All the ones I met were arrogant, condescending -- and not for good reason. They made giant mistakes and never fixed ‘em.

[BerrySciFi]

I hope TPTB are checking out these awesome threads. I think they really need to answer some of these questions for us. I think Janis illustrates the point that the Ancients were very much individuals, like any other race. Some were more "good" than others. It seems likely that there were even rogue elements present- like Loki of the Asgard. I think there is a tendency of grouping all Ancients together. I think the Ancients as a whole were neither all good, nor all arrogant and self-serving- but something in-between. Just like any other fallible race.

[s09119]

In evolutionary terms, are they more evolved than 2nd generation humans if they still have the same human faults and weaknesses as 2nd generation humans? Having our faults and weaknesses certainly wouldn't make them less than us but if they are the same as us where being human is concerned, exactly how are they more advanced than us?

I'm PRETTY sure they're more evolved than us, only because we know the Lanteans were actively trying to ascend, and has millions of years more than us to evolve. So I'm assuming they had some Prior-like abilites (of course, that's just speculation. But I think it's supported by all the time they've had to evolve). They still have our faults: overconfidence, large egos, etc. And they also have our weaknesses: extreme curiosity and, at times, selfishness (Could be argued by the Ascended in the MW not using their powers to save us all, I guess.)

That said, they also have our strengths: Ingenuity, a love for exploration, and adaptability. It is my personal opinion that the Ancients are, in a way, meant to represent what humanity on Earth could become one day, seeing as they share our strengths and weaknesses.

However, they have overcome their weaknesses to some extent by: fighting to protect the Pegasus humans when they could have run, shielding us from the Ori when they did not have to, seeding life in Pegasus and the MW, and, in the case of some like Janus, Oma, and Orlin, aiding "lowers" because they see we are worthy and in need. Of course, they made their share of errors, but even the Asgard (certainly more advanced in most aspects to ourselves) made a lot of mistakes along the way.

Maybe I'm getting confused here. Could you please explain exactly what you meant by the following -



To me this reads that the Ancients weren't all that concerned about what the expedition did with the Asurans because they regard 2nd generation humans in the same way that we regard monkeys.

Lanteans are, perhaps, the more egocentric sect of Ancients we've encountered, and they did see humans as a primitive species. They fought to protect them because they saw them as young children, but on the whole, we ARE as primitives to them.

What I meant was, the crew of the Tria believed that nothing we did could have caused much damage, as we have such a low understanding of things like nanites, robotic AI base codes, etc. Of course, they didn't know that some of us have reached a Lantean-level of understanding (Carter and McKay scientifically (ok, close enough) or Daniel philosophically).

How did the Lanteans overcome their faults and weaknesses through the actions of individuals or the collective? Why were they more successful in this respect than the SG1 team or Teal'c and Bra'tac? Egeria, the Goa'uld Queen, realised that the Goa'uld's behaviour was wrong and became the mother of the Tok'ra. Isn't that overcoming faults and failings?

Individually, Janus, Oma, and Orlin overcame their failings by putting aside their core beliefs to aid those that were, literally, beneath them. It would be like the President of the US authorizing the full military backing of a small African tribe, in a way. They sacrificed their respect, and, in 2 cases, their lives, to do something that their people as a collective would not.

Speaking of the collective, the Ascended prevented the SGC's self-destruct from going off in "Threads", overcoming their ego and belief in non-interference (some would say selfishness). Likewise, the Lanteans waged a war they knew they could not win against the Wraith in order to protect the billions of humans in Pegasus.

To go back to another quote from an earlier post of yours.



If the entire fandom here at GateWorld was pitted against a Goa'uld force half our size, who would win? If we were all pitted against one Ori Prior, who would win? I can't see us doing too well against a force of Wraith either. Are you saying that Goa'uld, Ori Priors and Wraith would be justified in regarding humans in the same way that we regard monkey because they have better technology and bigger guns?

What I meant was, the Lanteans had such a better grasp of everything, they could win against our superior numbers. They have knowledge beyond ours, and an understanding of the universe we aren't close to achieving. I meant that they could probably beat us using our own weapons and tactics, modified to a level we cannot understand.

(That still sounds unclear lol, sorry)

PS: What do you think of Sheppard's views concerning the Ancients?

SHEPPARD: Look, we all agree the Ancients were pretty screwed up.

SHEPPARD: All the ones I met were arrogant, condescending -- and not for good reason. They made giant mistakes and never fixed ‘em.

He's wrong. He's only met a fraction of the Ancients out there. Let's look:

Others: Believe in non-interference to give "lower" beings free will. They refuse to stop an evil-doer because it would make them as gods, which they know they aren't. Likewise, they refuse to help the good guys for a similar reason.

However, they eventually warmed to the idea of helping humanity when Daniel Jackson showed them our values and beliefs: compassion, friendship, trust, honor, and above all, a sense of extreme right and wrong.

Lanteans: Fought a war they could not win to save the human life they had created. Embraced science and higher philosophy as a means of existence and, eventually, ascension. Eventually, they were forced to flee when they were overwhelmed by their foes.

These Ancients have made the most mistakes, but not without reason. They set up social experiments on humans to see how to best guide them in their development, but the cultures they guided were abandoned when they were defeated by the Wraith. They also set up sophosticated defense systems on some worlds, but they could backfire and lead to problems later on.

But still, they did TRY to help. And as Oma says, lives must be judged by your intent, not the outcome of your actions.



Okay... My hands hurt... lol

[Ltcolshepjumper]

To put it simply, the Ancients are more advanced than humans. IN EVERY WAY. It's pretty obvious. All of their good and bad qualities are magnified to a higher degree than us humans.If we did something good, they'd do it even better; if we did something wrong, they'd do it five times as bad. Why? Because they did things on a GRAND scale.

[ciannwn]

I have to divide this reply into two parts because of the dreaded character limit.

Part One.

I'm PRETTY sure they're more evolved than us, only because we know the Lanteans were actively trying to ascend, and has millions of years more than us to evolve. So I'm assuming they had some Prior-like abilites (of course, that's just speculation. But I think it's supported by all the time they've had to evolve).

Before I start, I'm not putting anything in spoilers because the topic title says 'Spoilers for all seasons'.

In 'The Tao Of Rodney' we learn that the Ancients in 'The Return' activated a number of things in the city during their stay, one of which was the ascension machine. This was designed to accelerate genetic mutations required for turning bodies into energy. Rodney acquires amazing powers when he was accidentally affected by it but the villagers in 'Epiphany' had some unusual powers too through taking the meditation route. There's nothing to say that these villagers were direct descendants of Ancients because Weir, Ronon and Teyla were able to get through the barrier into the sanctuary even though they don't have the Ancient gene and Teyla even has Wraith DNA in her makeup. The villagers, then, could have been Pegasus humans.

From 'The Tao Of Rodney' -

WEIR: Well, we know the Ancients evolved physiologically to a certain point where they could transform into a state of pure energy.

SHEPPARD: Ancient History 101.

WEIR: Yes. We also know that not all of them managed to get there.

SHEPPARD: You’re saying some of them needed a kick in the pants.

WEIR: So to speak. I think this machine was not meant to help them fight the war against the Wraith but rather to help them escape it.

SHEPPARD (frowning): An ascension machine?

WEIR: Like the one the Goa’uld tried to create in the Milky Way.

There's nothing to indicate that ordinary Ancients had any Prior-like abilities or had reached an evolutionary stage where they could ascend whenever they felt like it. The crew of the Aurora had to go into stasis pods when their ship was badly damaged while the ones in 'The Return' didn't have any amazing abilities which helped them against the Asurans. There's nothing to indicate that Moros and co. had super powers either. Moros did have them later when he was going by the name of Merlin but this was after he'd ascended via the meditation route and then descended again.

What we learn from 'Epiphany' is -

TEER: As Hedda has the power to heal, I am able to see images in my mind. It's not uncommon for those on the path to ascension to gain such abilities.

TEER: Before my mother ascended, she could move things with her mind.

Ascending via the meditation route takes a long time. As the Atlanteans were in the middle of a war they presumably built their ascension machine in the hope of speeding things up.

They still have our faults: overconfidence, large egos, etc. And they also have our weaknesses: extreme curiosity and, at times, selfishness (Could be argued by the Ascended in the MW not using their powers to save us all, I guess.)

I don't think the ascended Ancients/Others can be condemned for not using their super-powers to turn the physical universe into a paradise and keep it that way by acting as a police force. What they can be condemned for, though, is that they maintain they have a strict non-interference policy and then bend their own rules whenever it suits them. I made a mistake saying that Anubis was allowed to use his extra knowledge. His partly ascended body made him impossible to kill though, so he was allowed to have an unfair advantage when it came to operating on the lower plane.

It is my personal opinion that the Ancients are, in a way, meant to represent what humanity on Earth could become one day, seeing as they share our strengths and weaknesses.

They could also be meant as a kind of warning. If we acquire super technology/super powers before we've overcome our weaknesses and failings we're likely to create some spectacular disasters.

However, they have overcome their weaknesses to some extent by: fighting to protect the Pegasus humans when they could have run,

Has it ever been stated that they fought the Wraith specifically to protect the Pegasus humans? If so, could you please say which episode it was in. I'm not saying you're wrong here, just that I haven't been able to find the reference yet.

[ciannwn]

Part Two

shielding us from the Ori when they did not have to,

Maybe they didn't want the Ori gaining extra energy from being worshipped by humans in the Milky Way galaxy. 'The Pegasus Project' gives us some interesting insights into higher planes politics.

MORGAN LE FAY: It was only some thousands of years later, upon seeing the threat the Ori could one day become, that Merlin retook his human form in order to create the weapon that you seek. He did everything within his power to keep his work secret, but we feared his intentions. I was sent to observe, and if necessary, to stop him.

VALA: Wait, right there. Just a minute. If he was human again, then you were interfering. You broke your own law.

[Daniel nods that she is right, but doesn't interrupt.]

MORGAN LE FAY: Merlin retained all of the knowledge he had gained while he was ascended, as well as many powers. Knowledge and powers he used to create a weapon capable of wiping Ascended Beings from existence.

VALA: So you're saying he cheated.

MORGAN LE FAY: In a manner of speaking. For that brief time in your history, he was the most powerful being on your planet. He created a small enclave of noblemen with whom he entrusted his secret.

WEIR:Arthur and Camelot.

MORGAN LE FAY: Yes.

DANIEL: So you're telling us that, after doing everything in your power to oppose Merlin, all of the sudden you agree with him? Because if you don't, then you're deliberately misleading us.

In a later scene.

DANIEL: I believe you. I do. I mean, I understand the fine line you have to walk. I realize the risk you're taking just showing yourself. But I'm sorry, I want more. You can pass that on to your friends as well. (to room) Yeah, I know you're listening, (to Le Fay, becoming impassioned) because I am getting sick of hidden clues and cryptic messages. And Merlin was right that the Ori are a threat. But not only to us "lowers," not only to the billions of humans throughout this galaxy, but to your own existence. Because when this war is over, and every soul that's left alive is praying to the Ori, feeding their need to be worshipped, you know who they're gonna come for next. I won't pretend to know what that war will look like, or in what battlefield it will take place, but then, I won't be alive to see it.

MORGAN LE FAY: If we interfere, we are no better than the Ori.

DANIEL: (intensely) I understand that is at the very core of what you are, of what you believe, but I'm talking about survival here. If you really are trying to help, then help yourself.

Next scene.

DANIEL: (realizing her fear) That's what you're afraid of, isn't it? Doing the right thing and being punished for it.

MORGAN LE FAY: I've already gone too far.

DANIEL: But you can't be the only one to realize the Ori have changed things! There must be others that-that see that the time to join this fight is now!

The last scene with Morgan Le Fay.

DANIEL:I know what we're asking you to do. You're afraid the others will step in and stop you from helping us. But maybe, maybe they just need someone to cross that imaginary line instead of just walking it. There must be others among you just waiting to follow your example.

MORGAN LE FAY: (sad but certain) Not enough.

WEIR: But you have been allowed to go this far.

MORGAN LE FAY: (insistent)Trust that you have your answers.

Morgan finally gives in to Daniel's asking for further information. She gets as far as saying "Merlin's weapon is not—" and is then removed from the scene.

The Ancients/Others are now divided into a few who support Merlin and the majority who don't. The majority are still happy to let Morgan give a few hints and tips, though. This suggests that they're concerned about the Ori enough to allow a bit of rule bending. "We really want something done about the Ori because they're a danger to us as well. If we allow Morgan Le Fay to bend the rules we'll be getting what we want without breaking any rules ourselves because she's the one interfering, not us." If so, isn't this a kind of moral cowardice on their part? They're slipping and sliding around making any kind of real choice so they can pretend that their self-image as non-interferers is still intact.

seeding life in Pegasus and the MW,

What does that have to do with overcoming weaknesses? Maybe the Ancients recreated life in the MW because they thought "We humans are absolutely wonderful so lets arrange things so evolution produces some more life forms in our own image". Later on they put humans in the Pegasus galaxy without considering that the 'foreign' life forms could prevent the natural evolution of sentient life.

Of course, they made their share of errors, but even the Asgard (certainly more advanced in most aspects to ourselves) made a lot of mistakes along the way.

The Asgard come across as having realised they'd made a lot of mistakes.

Lanteans are, perhaps, the more egocentric sect of Ancients we've encountered, and they did see humans as a primitive species. They fought to protect them because they saw them as young children, but on the whole, we ARE as primitives to them.

If they were so concerned with protecting 'primitive humans', why did they make the Athosians leave? In 'Rising Part 1' -

SHEPPARD: ...Are the Ancients allowing the Athosians to stay on the mainland?

TEYLA (smiling ruefully): They have found a suitable planet for us to relocate to -- one with our own Stargate.

Did the Ancients think that having them on the mainland would attract Wraith? If so, they were more concerned about their own safety than that of a group of Pegasus humans. It's not like the Athosians could have been a direct threat to them without a Puddle Jumper and the ability to fly it.

What I meant was, the crew of the Tria believed that nothing we did could have caused much damage, as we have such a low understanding of things like nanites, robotic AI base codes, etc. Of course, they didn't know that some of us have reached a Lantean-level of understanding (Carter and McKay scientifically (ok, close enough) or Daniel philosophically).

The Daedalus was capable of inter galactic travel. McKay and Carter had designed the Gate Bridge and it had been constructed using a number of Stargates. The Tria had been discovered because of Sheppard's test run and the crew even asked the Daedalus for assistance and got it. All this should have suggested that these Earth humans weren't scientifically ignorant primitives. Maybe if the Lanteans had asked for full details of how the Asurans had been fiddled with and studied the information, they might have considered the possibility that their protection coding could have been compromised. Later on O'Neill goes back to Atlantis and is obviously there for a while before the Asurans turn up. He's had a lot of experience fighting Replicators and could have told them about Carter's Anti-Replicator weapons. If the Lanteans had exercised a bit of caution instead of being over confident they could have asked for some of the weapons just in case. This could be why Sheppard regards the Ancients he's met as arrogant and condescending.

As for Daniel's philosophical understanding, this was all to do with his personal experience of being ascended. Unless the Tria crew had once ascended and then come back, their philosophical understanding would have been less than Daniel's in this respect.

Individually, Janus, Oma, and Orlin overcame their failings by putting aside their core beliefs to aid those that were, literally, beneath them.

I still think that Janus was mostly concerned about Atlantis lasting 10,000 years and being found again. The Ancients in 'Before I Sleep' hadn't ascended so the differences of opinion were based on doing things which would interfere with the time line - as Janus kept defying the Council's wishes he couldn't have shared his fellow Lanteans' core beliefs about messing around with time lines. Oma's core beliefs were helping others to ascend so she mightn't have shared the Others' ideas about non-interference to begin with. Orlin mightn't have shared the Other's core beliefs to any great extent either because he first helps the Velona people (with disastrous results because of the Others) and then descends to help find a cure for the Ori plague.

Merlin, for all his super knowledge and powers was willing to work with humans - first Arthur and his knights and then Daniel. Maybe the weakness that the Others have to overcome is a belief in their own self importance and superiority which they took with them to the higher planes when they ascended.

There's an interesting line in 'Threads' -

OMA:I told you before. The galaxy you're from, the plane of existence, is so small and insignificant compared to the rest of the universe.

This is obviously what the Others believe but Oma can't believe it herself otherwise she wouldn't have saved the galaxy by starting an eternal battle with Anubis. Earlier on she says that the other customers in the diner are ascended beings who are watching her and Daniel so it's likely she's just having to be very careful about what she says to him.

If there were no lower plane and galaxies there could never have been life to evolve into Ancients and any other other races who were able to achieve ascension. Leaving the lower plane to start a journey towards enlightenment is one thing but coming to regard this lower plane as insignificant compared to the rest of the universe is a fallacy.

Speaking of the collective, the Ascended prevented the SGC's self-destruct from going off in "Threads",

I couldn't find anything in the 'Threads' transcript to say who had stopped the self-destruct from going off. Daniel says it wasn't him so maybe it was Oma a microsecond or so before she engaged Anubis in battle. Why would the Others suddenly decide to break their own rules to save the people at SCG when they were prepared to stand by and let Anubis destroy them along with everyone else in the galaxy?

They refuse to stop an evil-doer because it would make them as gods, which they know they aren't.

They do, however, wield their god-like powers to exterminate an entire civilisation which they decided had become evil.

However, they eventually warmed to the idea of helping humanity when Daniel Jackson showed them our values and beliefs: compassion, friendship, trust, honor, and above all, a sense of extreme right and wrong.

How did the Others help humanity by stopping Morgan Le Fay from giving Daniel further information about the location of the Sangreal? Merlin had left the Others in order to descend and develop the Sangreal long before Daniel was born and he was still in his corporeal form when he worked with Daniel.

And as Oma says, lives must be judged by your intent, not the outcome of your actions.

Even if the Ancients before ascension intended to do good they made the same mistakes as the ordinary 2nd generation humans. The Ancients/Others haven't grown in understanding if they are hippocrites for breaking their own rules whenever it suits them. The ones who stand out from the collective are (a) Oma who helped others to ascend and then sacrificed her own journey to take Anubis on in eternal battle (b) Merlin who descended to develop a defence against the Ori threat and then sacrificed his life to help Daniel (c) Orlin who sacrificed his own journey to descend and help SGC develop a cure for the Ori plague and (d) Morgan Le Fay who gave Daniel and co. vital information for finding Merlin.

[s09119]

This is pointless. Every point you or I bring up has a double meaning depending on your perspective... Each quote can be used for my argument OR yours...

That, and I'm too tired to respond to that... Can someone else please take over the Ancient defense for a bit lol.