The Jaffa versus the Wraith

[Vala_M]

Shielded Ha'Taks can fair better against the Wraith ships. Both have fast firing pulse weapons, and the Ha'Taks themselves pack quite a punch.

Remember in The Reckoning, there were about 120 Ha'Taks ships under Baal's control and then about 200 or so Replicator-controlled Ha'Taks showed up. The Jaffa have PLENTY of ships.

How many Hives have we lowly Tauri blown the crap out of? About 10 or 12 now? lol

We've seen 304s seriously damage as well as destroy Hives and Cruisers, but so far the 304s haven't gone 1-vs-1 against a Ha'Tak and completely winning agaisnt it.

Thats why I think Ha'Taks can give Hives a problem.

No, the Ha'taks fire 1 by 1 burts as in 1 .. 1 .. whereas the hives fire a continuous stream of pulses as in 1111111 plus their weapon strength is more powerful. Plus, haven't about 20+ have been destroyed by the Ori, that we know about that is. In the battle at P3Y-229 and several that were destroyed when the Ori attacked Chulak and such. Plus a small Ha'tak firing at a 3+ Mile long hive would take a long time to destroy it. Anyway, Jaffa don't have Asgard beams or nukes so they are at a disadvantage. Look how little the Daedalus can take using Asgard shields against the hives so Ha'taks would succumb much quicker. Plus, I doubt only one hive would go to the Milky way.

AGT58

[Ouroboros]

Shields aren't automatically better than the Wraith armour just because they're shields. The only thing that determines what's better is which of the two can actually take more damage.

A hiveship is about 11km long according to an interview with the FX guys, a Ha'tak is about 1km. The hive also has weapons that are massively more powerful, able to threaten ancient shields, the atlantis shield and wear down the Daedalus shield very quickly. It's armour is also up to taking quite a pounding from these weapons. Return part I even says that a group of Wraith cruisers are more than a match for an Aurora class battleship now.

Goa'uld weapons will seem like squirt guns in comparison while the hive's weapon betteries will splatter Ha'taks the same way those lesser guns on the toilets did.

The only chance the Jaffa would have would be suicide ramming attacks like Bra'tac tried with the Ori ship.

[Exiled Master]

no contest. It would take more than 10 Hatak with their fighter complements to bring down a hive. But I think 's flagship could bring down a hive with its fighters and a few alkesh escorts pretty easily.

[FerCryinOutLoud!]

I don't think that the Jaffa being on the brink of civil war would mean much if the Wraith came to town. This is of course forgetting the Ori are in the galaxy. It's pretty rediculous picturing anyone putting up much of a fight against the Ori. But the Wraith are a little more doable. They aren't near invincible. I think of the Jaffa as soldiers without a war to fight. The goa'uld are defeated. The jaffa are twittling their thumbs and start in-fighting with each other because they don't have anyone else to devote their time to fighting. They throw temper tantrems when they can't defeat some force with an overwhelmingly crushing blow (cough* Ori *cough). But fighting the Wraith i think they'd have a better chance and therefore would be able to fight the wraith instead of each other. So i think they have a good chance because i think they're on a closer technology level with the wraith. The jaffa under the reign of the goa'uld were so used to being so powerful...THE most powerful force in the galaxy at the time. But when someone comes around closer to their level of power and technology or high than that and they begin to lose they blame everyone but themselves. Arrogance, complacency, and pride are the jaffa's greatest weaknesses. That's why i think it's a toss up on whether they could beat the wraith. The wraith have their own set of problems that i won't go into. But if the jaffa could band together i believe that they would be able to overcome and prevail against the wraith.

[Sasusc]

We don't know how effective the Jaffa Weapons would be against the Wraith. If 2-3 shots with a Zat can take down a Wraith it would be alot easier than half a clip from a P-90. Which makes me wonder: Why the Atlantis Expiedition Team didn't take Zats or Staffs?

Also we don't know what effect a Jaffa Symbiote or Tratonin would have against the Wraith feeding ability.

Good point a about the Zats. **wonders why Atlantis doesn't have any**

Anyway, I would say the Wraith would win. But I wouldn't want the Jaffa to be near the Wraith. The Jaffa has a way longer life span then humans. If the Wraith gets a hold of a Jaffa and feeds off of him, that's a lot of years to get off of one person.

[FreeStyLA]

Hmmm... a few people seem to dislike the Jaffa in this thread

I wonder if those same people would be willing to get rid of Teal'c; he is after all from the Jaffa race too. Same goes for Bra'tac... as well as any other good Jaffa on the show (Aron, Ishta, Tolok, etc), and if they are willing to get rid of those two characters then oh well

Anyway back on topic:

In all the seasons of Stargate (and if you want to include the movie in this) it seems that the staff weapon has been powered down by a lot.If any of you have seen the movie the staff weapon seemed to be almost like a grenade launcher... it was so powerful.

Even if you were to discount the movie and everything in it and just count the episodes in the series, if you check out the season 1 episodes (specifically Children of the Gods) you can see O'Neill blasting holes into the prison walls in Chulak. Throughout the first season Tealc's staff weapon was pretty much used as a makeshift "battering ram/explosive" weapon whenever they didn't have sufficient explosives with them (The fifth commandment, The torment of tantulus) and this continued on until Zats came into play. (Even O'Neill would get rid of his submachine guns just so that he could use the staff weapons in the earlier seasons... check out 1st season Cor'ai).

Ever since then staff weapons have pretty much lost their power from the glory days... cause whenever someone is shot with that now it just leaves a black mark or whatever on their body... pretty pathetic.

What does this have to do with the topic?

Well if the staff weapons could be brought back to that original power then they would certainly own the wraith in terms of firepower... but even now they do still pack a punch... albeit a drastically smaller one. But since the show is pretty inconsistent with so many things over the seasons (Even the Tok'ra armed themselves with Staff Weapons... ALL OF THEM... see Tok'ra Parts I and II... but then they mysteriously reverted to Zats.... ALL OF THEM) then it seems the underpowered staff weapon is what's going to be used nowadays. (Unfortunate... I loved the overpowered staff weapon that could blast massive craters)

Now for the Zats. They are perhaps one of the most efficient weapons in the history of the show... a 2 shot death... 1 shot temporary paralysis... or great pain. Even if this was the main weapon of the Jaffa forces it would seriously make an impact on any invading army by the Wraith.

As for battlefield tactics... well I don't know what battlefield tactics are employed by the Wraith. I still have not seen the second season of Atlantis apart from The Siege III (it'll premiere on our TVs the next week), but from Season 1... it didn't seem to be any more intelligent than any tactics that Jaffa probably used in Season 1 of SG-1. (No wait... if you count Teal'c... and Bra'tac in Bloodlines then those two Jaffa represent greater intelligence in combat than any Wraith seen in Season 1). Anyway it all comes down to whether the main characters are in the episode.

If SG-1 is in the episode they can't die. They can get captured... but if they die then there's no SG-1. Guess what? That means their enemy has to die by the thousands because of that issue. And so a new episode premieres the next week.

Same as Atlantis. Shepard and his team can't die. They can get stuck, captured etc. But they can't die. Guess what? If there's 100 wraith versing the 4 or 5 of them... who's going to win by the end of the episode? No monetary prize if you get this answer correct.

So the way they portray the Jaffa and the Wraith in terms of unintelligent fodder left to die at the hands of our P90s/ MP5s/ M4 or M16s, etc is all pretty much the same.

If we're going to talk about hand held weapons alone... the Jaffa have the advantage... greater variety... more potent.

Now ships.

Hives don't have shields. But they are massive ships... with plenty of darts... a lot more darts in a Hive ship than Gliders in a Ha'tak vessel. (Refer to all 3 Siege episodes)

Dart Vs Glider? Well both are unshielded... the weapons on a Glider are probably the more potent... twin Staff cannons... a shot of that is pretty much a straight firing rocket. But the dart seems to be the more agile and seems to have better acceleration. If it were a battle between the two I'd have to give it to the dart.

Ha'tak Vs Hive ship? The Ha'tak's shields aren't as strong as the Daedalus class ships which have Asgard designed shield technology (obvious and you all know that). Hmmmm... I have a gut feeling that the Hive ship weapons would be able to own the Ha'tak shielding one on one but I can't say for sure.

As for the Ha'tak's cannons vs the Hive weapons... seems that again there's a lot of inconsistencies with the power of Ha'tak weaponry. The only definitive numerical statement with regards to their power comes from "There but for the grace of god" in season 1. In the alternate reality Carter says that the blasts from the Ha'tak ships were the equivalent of 200 megaton nuclear warheads. In the same reality all of Earth's combined military forces were unable to stand up to the attacks from Apophis's vessels. However because it is an alternate reality... the power of those Ha'taks might not be canon considering the fact that in the episodes where Ha'taks have actually fired their weapons... it looks nowhere near the power of a nuclear warhead. The only explanation for the lack of power might be because the weapon has to be charged via a capacitor of some wort before reaching those tremendoes levels and would therefore present a slow firing rate. (In "The Warrior" Yu's Ha'tak fires on the rebel Jaffa... but the potency was pathetic... in "The Sentinel" a Ha'tak is firing on the city pathetically... but it might be to intimidate the leader into surrendering rather than charging the weapon to full capacity and destroying the entire city in one shot). In every episode since, the Ha'tak's weapon potency isn't really great. For this I think the Hive ships have the superior firepower.

The BIG thing that Ha'taks have going for them? Their speed in hyperspace. Hive ships aren't fast. They also need to take pit stops with their ships because their hyperdrives simply aren't efficient. In a real battle... speed can easily determine who wins and who loses a fight. If a ship is left stranded in space because they have to let their hyperdrives recharge or cool down or whatever... while their opponents are able to drop out of hyperspace and take potshots at them... and then flee back into hyperspace quickly... then they would lose the battle... or receive a certain amount of damage before they can go into hyperspace again. What Ha'taks lack in one area they easily make up for in another area. In The Siege Part III, this is what the Daedalus does... drops out of hyperspace to take out 2 of the hive ships via nukes... then goes back in before they can be seriously damaged... and get back to Atlantis before they Wraith do. Ha'taks obviously aren't as fast as the Daedalus... but at least they don't have to take breaks when travelling in hyperspace... and they would still be faster than Hive ships.

Now in terms of ship numbers... I think the Jaffa should have a fleet much bigger than what they're portraying right now (unless of course the Lucian Alliance somehow miraculously managed to steal a whole load of them from Jaffa who are stronger than the lowly humans... or the Jaffa decided to scrap the extra Ha'taks) because like Peoples_General said, if any of you have noticed the Reckoning episodes of Season 8, you can see how many Ha'taks were in the combined System Lords' possession. As the system lords were finished by the season's end, and the Ha'taks that were taken over by the replicators should have been retaken by the Free Jaffa Nation... it means that the fleet should be well in excess of 100 Ha'taks... and that's considering the number of Ha'taks already lost to the Lucian Alliance and in battle against the Ori ships. Peoples_General pointed out the number of ships in Reckoning. I'd like to point out this isn't the only episode which gives an estimate for number of Ha'taks in the galaxy. Anubis brought around 30 Ha'taks with him to Earth in The Lost City. In New Order (season 8 episodes) they mention that Anubis's fleet was a small one compared to the other System Lords. It has been pointed out in other episodes prior to this that Anubis commanded a relatively small fleet out of the system lords... he was able to overwhelm the other System Lords through the use of his Ancient Knowledge and superior weaponry such as that used on his flagship. If 30 was a small fleet then it's easy to see how Ba'al was able to get the fleet he got in Reckoning. The Jaffa SHOULD have more Ha'taks than Wraith having Hive ships based on that reasoning. In a 1 Vs 1 ship battle the Wraith would win. If the Jaffa have their entire armada with them then it may turn the tide in their favour.

I am not counting the flagships of some of the former Goa'ulds such as Apophis and Anubis. Apophis' giant flagship can take out Ha'taks easily... but since we only saw it firing in one episode... it's hard to say whether it could take on a Hive ship. Anubis's flagship with the eyes would most likely destroy the Hive ships easily. I went into some detail into the capabilities of Anubis's flagship with the eyes in a post in this thread (the ship itself is a planet destroyer):

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=37160

Since those flagships don't exist anymore and they were one off ships... they aren't going to be counted.

Now to add up:

Land based weaponry: Jaffa = 1, Wraith = 0
Battlefield tactics: Jaffa = 0, Wraith = 0 (They both have none unless you want to consider main characters like Teal'c and Bra'tac)
Strength and Endurance: Jaffa = 0, Wraith = 1 (After a feed Wraith heal far more quickly than any Jaffa with a symbiote)
Darts and Gliders: Jaffa = 0, Wraith = 1
1 Vs 1 Capital ships: Jaffa = 0, Wraith = 1
Ship skirmishes (ie. Guerilla warfare in space): Jaffa = 1, Wraith = 0
Armada Vs Armada: Jaffa = 1, Wraith = 0

Total:
Jaffa = 3
Wraith = 3

Now this isn't really a fair comparison... cause there are areas which should be given more weighting (such as ship strengths) and less weighting (land based weaponry) but I really wanted to get across my point that the Jaffa versing the Wraith wouldn't end with a skewed victory for either of them. It would be a long, drawn out war if both sides fought at the best of their abilities.

[wise one]

the wriath are far more superior to the jaffa whov are just slaves who so happens to have ships.

air fights would be the wraith cos they are pretty fast, but then again the death gliders are more flexible.

hataks vs wraith ships i would go for the hives cos even though hataks have shields they dont last that long if wraith energy weapons with their rapid shooting tech or whatever it is called, hataks have energy weapons i could do alot of damage to a hive if hit at right places.

ground attacks, the wraith could scoop in and out and do they're illusion thing and theyre ability to heal would come in handy. the jafa are ok but in some episodes they really dont know how to shoot a target, usually 5-10 blasts till they eventaully hit their target. for me wriath


HELL, the wraith would win in anything, they beat the ancients with their advanced weapons and that for the jaffa it would be like practice cos if they still battling the wraith they would run out of ships.

[DarkBlade]

On the ground, one on one combat, I think a Jaffa footsoldier would own a Wraith, as one or two blasts from a staff weapon would kill a Wraith. One shot from a Zat gun knocks a human/Jaffa unconscious, two shots kill and three dissolves. In a battle, if it was a few hundred Wraith and Jaffa I think they would be an even match. In a battle of thousands and it took weeks, Jaffa would wipe the floor with Wraith as Wraith weapons don't kill, they stun, and that wears off in a few hours. fighters I think a Dart would win, Alkesh versus a Wraith Cruiser. Honestly, in 02x05 Condemned we saw TWO DRONES cripple a Cruiser, Alkesh have taken a bigger beating and lived, and the fact in 10x03 Teal'c cloaked his Alkesh and even the high and mighty Ori couldn't detect him. Definite advantages, and Hatak vs. Hiveship I can't say, as they both have energy based weapons, they both have had many ships destroyed at the hands of Stargate Command, they both act as carriers, but then again 2 drones in 08x13 of SG1 "It's Good To Be King" did blow up Ares's Hatak, so I'd say one on one, Wraith, however if the 50 or so Wraith Hiveships were to face off against the hundreds of Jaffa Hataks, with or without ramming tactics, the Jaffa would win, hands down

[wise one]

due to numbers from the wraith, the jaffa would soon lose ships were they could not even build any and by then the wraith would of aleast taken a hatak for analysis and figured out the hyperdrive on it and then they would be a bit faster.

and plus wraith know what they are doing with technology such as fixing or modifiying tech and making them. e.g. the difiant one, with the puddle jumper


wraith would win

[J_schinderlin56]

During a battle between the wraith and Jaffa one of the Jaffa Symbotes escapes and implants itself in a wraith, Goa'uld Wraith, The healing and strenghting powers of the Goa'uld Symbote combined with the regeneritive powers and strength of the Wraith. Decked out in it's Kull Warior Armor after feeding on a large Group of Unas, ready to take on the armies of the Ori.

[Stargatenutcase]

In response to what someone said about people disliking the Jaffa and whether or not they would get rid of Teal'c because he is a Jaffa, I have this to say.

There are 5 Jaffa in the Galaxy I would not kill.

-Teal'c
-Ishta
-Bra'tac
-Rya'c
-Rak'nor

These Jaffa have proven they are willing to put aside whatever is happening with them and help the Taur'i, the true power of the Milky Way.

And to keep with the topic I started off, the Wraith would defeat the Jaffa with relative ease. The Ha'taks are small and faster, but they can also only fire around 1 shot every 2 seconds. The Hive Ships are around 3miles long and can fire about 50 shots every 2 seconds. There are Crusiers which could simply blow an Al'Keash up with relative ease. And finally, the Darts versus the Death Gliders. Death Gliders probably have a bit more firepower then their Wraith counterparts but the Darts are faster and can escape through the Stargate whereas the Death Gliders have to try and return to the Ha'tak is was launched from.

[The Mysterious DB]

You're forgetting one thing about the Jaffa, proud though they are, if the wraith attacked them they would call for aid from SGC et all... so although the wraith would wipe out the Jaffa if it were only the two, however the Jaffa have powerful allies.

[Ouroboros]

You're forgetting one thing about the Jaffa, proud though they are, if the wraith attacked them they would call for aid from SGC et all... so although the wraith would wipe out the Jaffa if it were only the two, however the Jaffa have powerful allies.

If the Wraith attacked the Jaffa in force what could Earth do. Earth's best course of action would be to start looking for LOTS of drones for the antarctic weapon and generally fortifying Earth as much as possible. Hopefully then the Wraith decide it's not worth it to attack since there's a whole galaxy of humans/Jaffa out there for them to eat more easily instead.

I'm not even sure the antarctic weapon to put them off though. Atlantis' drones didn't put them off during the original ancient war, only the shield stopped them. Earth doesn't have a shield so we'd probably just kill a few hives before they blew the outpost up with orbital strikes and then culled the effectively helpless planet.

[Peoples_General]

Look, Hives can get seriously damaged by DSC-304s. We have yet to see the 304s make more than "lowering the Ha'Tak shields by a mere 11%". (For those that do not understand english as well as math and manages to misread that... lowering by 11% means that the Ha'Taks have 89% shield strength).

We've seen the Daedalous charge head on against Hiveships. Yet whenever we have 304s -vs- Ha'Taks, the 304s tend to avoid combat with them. I doubt that Caldwell is the only reason why a 304 engages Hiveships...

Afterall you have Emmerson and Chekov charging against Ori ships...

[Ouroboros]

Look, Hives can get seriously damaged by DSC-304s. We have yet to see the 304s make more than "lowering the Ha'Tak shields by a mere 11%". (For those that do not understand english as well as math and manages to misread that... lowering by 11% means that the Ha'Taks have 89% shield strength).

We've seen the Daedalous charge head on against Hiveships. Yet whenever we have 304s -vs- Ha'Taks, the 304s tend to avoid combat with them. I doubt that Caldwell is the only reason why a 304 engages Hiveships...

Afterall you have Emmerson and Chekov charging against Ori ships...

You also have the technologically infearior Prometheus surviving an extended pounding from 'nubie's super ship and being thought of as a match for, IIRC a Ha'tak and 2 alkesh at the same time in one episode.

Then there's the obvious difference between how well 304 shields and Ha'tak shields hold up to Ori shots. 304s can take 1-2 where as ha'taks lose shields from one and it keeps going right out the other side.

What episode has the 11% drop in Ha'taks shields from fighting a 304 though?