Choosy viewers unite! Pro character and logical story development thread

[NG.1]

Oddly, the idea of 'logical' development amuses me.

It's logical that something that has been present since day one, and thus one of the conventions of the Stargate Universe continues on as such.

It's logical that people percieve characters in very different ways.

It's logical that not everything is going to make complete scientific sense. It's pointless to look at it as such.

It is also logical that we see many human alien races - since it has been explained that the Goa'uld took humans from earth and populated the universe with them.

It's logical that if we are going to have a alien culture for one episode it isn't going to be the most developed culture. It's there is serve a purpose, not be a public service announcment, or an historical link or anything else.

You see, I don't think everything is perfect. But that being said that idea that something has to follow some sort of logical progression confuses me. What logic do we use to determine how it is meant to progress? That of the Stargate universe, the one that has been set forth? Or that of the real world - which in the grand scheme of things has nothing to do with the Stargate universe?

Agree with all your above-mentioned points. But the problem is that certain "things" should surely stay "logical" in the grand sceme of things e.g.
In SG-1 it was established what kind of technology Earth has. But in Atlantis Earth suddenly has this WOW technology. They can de-evolve an alien race, they can plant DNA in other humans in order to use ancient devices etc. etc.

Now if say in Star Trek Next Generation they managed to de-evolve an alien species I could accept that because it is the future and Star Trek, hence everything goes. Same for the DNA story.

But in Stargate it was established that Earth is basically like we know it to be in real life etc. etc. and not once was it described how we suddenly made such a "huge" step in order to be able to use these wonderous technology.

Also the same with the military stuff...so how come McKay (a civilian) is suddenly allowed to stay behind and protect civilians?

The mentioned points above is just a few of the scientific things that has bothered me for a while - hence the purpose of the previous thread.

The fact is I love the idea behind Atlantis and I absolutely adore SG-1, but surely the TPTB can't consider us to be naive and stupid to accept everything they throw our way at face value.

[Deevil]

But Atlantis is a different animal all together... To compare it to SG-1 is unfair and uncalled for.

They have different levels of technology they are working with everyday, as well as different ways in which they are working towards it.

Sure, leaving McKay to care for civilians is kind of silly (what episode did that happen in again?), but since I can't remember the episode I can't comment on it.

You see, Atlantis has never proclaimed to be a real life kind of show, it has always been more 'sci-fi' like then SG-1, and for that reason you have to find your 'logic' within the framework of Atlantis. And, there is nothing about Atlantis that says that couldn't have created a retro-virus, because hell they created the ancient gene injection.

My problem with Atlantis is not the science behind it, because they have follow their own formula with that - but just the lack of fall-out from some of the decisions made.

[NG.1]

But Atlantis is a different animal all together... To compare it to SG-1 is unfair and uncalled for.

The problem is Atlantis is still in the universe of SG-1. Not an alternative universe, not an alternative unique show. Therefore certain things should stay the same or "stupid" people like myself become confuse.

They have different levels of technology they are working with everyday, as well as different ways in which they are working towards it.

Uh...yeah I can live with that.

Sure, leaving McKay to care for civilians is kind of silly (what episode did that happen in again?), but since I can't remember the episode I can't comment on it.

Can't remember the name. Is that one with the Wrath child in it.

You see, Atlantis has never proclaimed to be a real life kind of show, it has always been more 'sci-fi' like then SG-1, and for that reason you have to find your 'logic' within the framework of Atlantis. And, there is nothing about Atlantis that says that couldn't have created a retro-virus, because hell they created the ancient gene injection.

As I said before Atlantis is happening within the framework of SG-1, therefore certain things should remain, "logical". As for the ancient gene injection - that is the DNA thing I was talking about.

My problem with Atlantis is not the science behind it, because they have follow their own formula with that - but just the lack of fall-out from some of the decisions made.

You know in a weird sense of the way I think you and I agree. My problem is Atlantis has an easy answer for everything at the end of the day. Need normal humans to be able to use ancient devices, viola create an ancient gene injection. Need to be able to defeat the Wrath, viola create a retro-virus. Where's the difficulty, the guine pigs that might have turned into some sort of mutants (remember you are messing with genes here). Everything just happens way too easy in the story. Therefore no suspense, no getting emotionally involved in the story, no nothing.

P.S. If they developed the ancient gene injection what prevents earth from injecting humans with Goa'uld genes in order for them to be able to use some of the technology e.g. handheld devices etc.?

Just a thought.

[NG.1]

Just want to add something about the ancient gene injection thing:

First of all it bothers me because they were messing around with genes, DNA etc. that can have serious consequences.

What I would have done instead is as follows:

The technology to create weapons that will only work on a specific person's DNA already exist in the real world.

Now what if McKay created a device that incorporated the DNA from Sheppard and some of the others with the ancient gene. This device will then be connected to ancient technology in order to fool it into thinking someone with the ancient gene wishes to operate it.

Much more plausable in the line of what we know about Earth's technological ability in the Stargate universe.

[Syera]

To those of you complaining about our complaints: there is a difference between science-fiction and science-nonsense. When an episode delivers something that's completely unplausible, it's like being slapped in the face.

10. Why was the rest of the city in Atlantis never explored? Surely that should have been a sort off a priority to make sure no nasties were waiting for them in the dark?

Not to mention they should be exploring if only to take full use of the city's resources! It's only presumable that they had some kind of resources in-city to ensure a food supply, whether it was something complicated like replicators (I hope not... please, no more blatant Trekisms!) to something more simple like fisheries and plants to extract seaweed and whatnot from the ocean. (That would be awesome.)

One of the biggest things I'd wish they'd cut it out with is the Transform-O-like morphings.

I'd like to point out this list of cliches. Read it and take notes, people. (And by 'people,' I especially mean TPTB.) Note the icons - Bull, Snoozer, Sexist...

[Wraith Scientist]

I'd like to point out this list of cliches. Read it and take notes, people. (And by 'people,' I especially mean TPTB.) Note the icons - Bull, Snoozer, Sexist...

Oh, that made me laugh I would give you green, but I gave some to you too recently for your earlier post in this thread

Here's a site about scientifically implausable things in science-fiction, specifically in space
There's also a rant about Star Trek that seems relevant

[Tankaras]

I'm tired of the fact that TPTB keep using ancient technology as their trump card for the last seasons. We defeated Anubis b/c of the ancient outpost, we destroyed the replicators w/ ancient tech and now SPOILER SPOILER we are tracking down Merlin's magic ancient device that kills the big bad enemy( ORI ). This recurring plot of using alien technology to defeat their enemies is getting old. Perhaps if the ancients broke thier laws of non-interference and battled our new foe, it would be cool, but using ancient tech as the one in all problem solver isn't working for me.

[Commander Ivanova]

This recurring plot of using alien technology to defeat their enemies is getting old.

With you on that one, bud

[Syera]

Sadly, I'm afraid it's going to be a case of finding a deus ex machina or having Carter build one. In this case, ya gotta choose between the lesser of two weevils.

...Actually, it'd be interesting if we had an arc where Carter was working on one, and it took her some time to get it done. Every now and then, we'd see her working on it, testing it out, etc. Maybe have it go completely kaput a few times, or just discombobulate an Ori for a few minutes. After this, THEN we'd get to see her hard work pay off.

[Osiris-RA]

SG1 Storyline Development: The First Distaster

Jack/RDA left. *sob*

SG1 Storyline Development: The Second Distaster

The Orii. What can be said of the Ori? Too many things, which is why I'll leave it at that.

SG1 Storyline Development: The Third Disaster

Cameron (Cam Shaft) Mitchell. Team SG1: Lt. Col, Lt. Col, Civilian, Alien. See anything a wee bit off there?

SGA Faux Pas 1

Ancient Gene juice vs. Wraith Gene Juice. Frankly, I don't see the problem with either one. They have scientists aboard! Synthesis the Wraith Juice!! THEY'RE BOTH COOL!

SGA Faux Pas 2
Ford's disappearance. Me no likey. Now it's just Shep, Teyla, Dex, and the annoying squirt. I say, a great way to show SGA's independance from SG1 is to make it a 5 member team, but oh wait - SGA's independance from SG1 is pretty much null and void thanks to:

SGA Faux Pas 3:

SGA/SG1 crossovers. Frankly, I'm pissed to see my people over there with their people. As of the moment, The SGA people aren't quite my people yet. My people are the people who sent their people off to some other people's planet, capisce? Crossovers are too...fanficcy. You write about it. You day dream about it, but it never really happens. Mckay's little schoolboy obsession with Sam...that's an ok crossover, she's not really there. Heck, even some clone aliens that share SG1's resemblance would be fine, but I don't think I'd take too kindly to seeing SG1 in Atlantis in the flesh.

SG Universe comments:

Why does everyone speak English? No matter how many heads, eyes or boobs the aliens have, they aaaaaalways manage to be speakin' de English. I heard this problem explained in some movie I saw recently. Due to Aliens superior understanding and intellect, what we hear as English is in actuality, the Aliens Language. They simply make it sound like English to our ears so that we can understand them, but they never stopped speaking their language, and we in turn are actually speaking their language but hearing it as English...you get it?

Space Battles. I've had enough. They're pretty. Lots of things going ba-boom. But...frankly....it's getting annoying. Now, maybe if they filmed the space battles like the BSG ones, I'd like 'em more, 'cause the BSG space scenes are A-MA-ZING.

And so ends my complaint. It shall probably continue in my LJ, along with a sizable rant about Lost...

[NG.1]

SG1 Storyline Development: The First Distaster

Jack/RDA left. *sob*

SG1 Storyline Development: The Second Distaster

The Orii. What can be said of the Ori? Too many things, which is why I'll leave it at that.

SG1 Storyline Development: The Third Disaster

Cameron (Cam Shaft) Mitchell. Team SG1: Lt. Col, Lt. Col, Civilian, Alien. See anything a wee bit off there?

SGA Faux Pas 1

Ancient Gene juice vs. Wraith Gene Juice. Frankly, I don't see the problem with either one. They have scientists aboard! Synthesis the Wraith Juice!! THEY'RE BOTH COOL!

SGA Faux Pas 2
Ford's disappearance. Me no likey. Now it's just Shep, Teyla, Dex, and the annoying squirt. I say, a great way to show SGA's independance from SG1 is to make it a 5 member team, but oh wait - SGA's independance from SG1 is pretty much null and void thanks to:

SGA Faux Pas 3:

SGA/SG1 crossovers. Frankly, I'm pissed to see my people over there with their people. As of the moment, The SGA people aren't quite my people yet. My people are the people who sent their people off to some other people's planet, capisce? Crossovers are too...fanficcy. You write about it. You day dream about it, but it never really happens. Mckay's little schoolboy obsession with Sam...that's an ok crossover, she's not really there. Heck, even some clone aliens that share SG1's resemblance would be fine, but I don't think I'd take too kindly to seeing SG1 in Atlantis in the flesh.

SG Universe comments:

Why does everyone speak English? No matter how many heads, eyes or boobs the aliens have, they aaaaaalways manage to be speakin' de English. I heard this problem explained in some movie I saw recently. Due to Aliens superior understanding and intellect, what we hear as English is in actuality, the Aliens Language. They simply make it sound like English to our ears so that we can understand them, but they never stopped speaking their language, and we in turn are actually speaking their language but hearing it as English...you get it?

Space Battles. I've had enough. They're pretty. Lots of things going ba-boom. But...frankly....it's getting annoying. Now, maybe if they filmed the space battles like the BSG ones, I'd like 'em more, 'cause the BSG space scenes are A-MA-ZING.

And so ends my complaint. It shall probably continue in my LJ, along with a sizable rant about Lost...

Just want to comment on the English part. In the one Stargate book it was sort of addressed. Apparently the Stargate has a translation thing built into it which allow the different races to understand each other,

Anybody else read that?

Something I just thought off...why is it that the books sometimes makes more sense than the TV Series?

[Konman72]

Just want to comment on the English part. In the one Stargate book it was sort of addressed. Apparently the Stargate has a translation thing built into it which allow the different races to understand each other,

Anybody else read that?

Something I just thought off...why is it that the books sometimes makes more sense than the TV Series?

Because they can sit there for page after page explaining why a certain thing acts the way it does, whereas if that happens in a TV show people call it technobabble and complain.

Also, I just accept the whole, alien's speaking english thing since the show wouldn't work at all otherwise. 30 minutes of Daniel learning and translating does not sound like a good show to me.

[Ouroboros]

A quick point on the space battles.

Why Sg universe did you have to buy into the lame-o "shoot glowy crap at people from a few ship lengths away" method of sci-fi space battle?

Not only is it played out to the point of being a ridiculous cliche in the genre it's also so completely unrealistic that there remains little if any good reason to still do it this way.

Ok sgverse, look, I know the guys that created you grew up with StarTrek and Starwars but back then there was a reason spacebattles consisted of two ships mostly stationary shooting glowing crap at each other. The special effects of the day didn't really allow for much else to be done with the models in question.

With today's fancypants computer technology though it seems kind of stupid to try and emulate a style of space battle that was originally invented as a work around for technological limitations that don't exist anymore.

Let enemies use long range missiles and lasers to fight with each other. Not only will it be more realistic but it will also be something even better, original.

If you want to keep using glowy crap then by all means please tell me what's in the glowey crap, and I don't want to hear the word "plasma" because that's impossible and yet another played out cliche.

[NG.1]

A quick point on the space battles.

Why Sg universe did you have to buy into the lame-o "shoot glowy crap at people from a few ship lengths away" method of sci-fi space battle?

Not only is it played out to the point of being a ridiculous cliche in the genre it's also so completely unrealistic that there remains little if any good reason to still do it this way.

Ok sgverse, look, I know the guys that created you grew up with StarTrek and Starwars but back then there was a reason spacebattles consisted of two ships mostly stationary shooting glowing crap at each other. The special effects of the day didn't really allow for much else to be done with the models in question.

With today's fancypants computer technology though it seems kind of stupid to try and emulate a style of space battle that was originally invented as a work around for technological limitations that don't exist anymore.

Let enemies use long range missiles and lasers to fight with each other. Not only will it be more realistic but it will also be something even better, original.

If you want to keep using glowy crap then by all means please tell me what's in the glowey crap, and I don't want to hear the word "plasma" because that's impossible and yet another played out cliche.

Yeah, it kinda irritates the hell out of me too.

Another thing that one must always consider is the fact that Space doesn't have oxycen therefore fires don't work.

Now let's look at sci-fi:

1. How many times don't you see a ship breaking up with a fires buring all around, Come on! Did the laws of science all of a sudden changed?

2. If fires don't work - surely then stuff like "plasma" and all the other fire-y things won't work in space either?

3. I kinda always thought that a space ship's weaponry would either be missiles or a fancy type of weapon that can distorts space around an enemy ship and cause major damage depending on the strenght of the ship.

Another thing that bothers me - why is space ships always shown having a "top" side and a "bottom" side and the top side of the one space ship is always in the same direction as the "top" side of the other one?

Huh?

And here I always thought that things like left, right, top and bottom doesn't exist in space - science facts 101.

[Deevil]

Well, just to explain why they do the big noises, the excessive fire (incidently, there would be a brief flash of fire as the oxygen is used up) and all the in space. It's because it looks good.

Creating a show, any show, isn't solely about realism. It's about keeping people entertained, and I guarentee a good chunk of people wouldn't care for the space battles that the laws of physics would allow .

And here I always thought that things like left, right, top and bottom doesn't exist in space - science facts 101

It's not about this existing in space, it's about these laws existing on the planet - and however the gravity systems work on the ship. Things are created based on what we already know, so of course there is a top on a bottom. The bottom is where your feet are - the top is above your head. Inside you have the direction of left and right, this correlates with the outside.

it happens in shuttles aswell. When you have a design that has seats... you have an up and down and left and right.