Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[boxdudea]

? Huh ?

I am saying that Stargate cant win agianst Star Trek.

[RJLCyberPunk]

I am saying that Stargate cant win agianst Star Trek.

If we go by visuals Stargate cannot win a fight against cheesecake in space and Trek cannot win a land battle with cheesecake either, that's how the franchises roll...

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I'd rather say Stargate can't win a fight against a mountain, whilst primative Trek obliterates them.
Later Trek kills chunks of a planet with ease and that's how the franchises roll.

BTW this is what the most common and regular produced evidence shows.

[RJLCyberPunk]

I'd rather say Stargate can't win a fight against a mountain, whilst primative Trek obliterates them.
Later Trek kills chunks of a planet with ease and that's how the franchises roll.

BTW this is what the most common and regular produced evidence shows.

That is again going by visuals alone and trumping out dialogue something made popular by a certain infamous vs debate website specially among recalcitrant Star Wars fans who think their pet universe trumps just about all there is.

The funny thing is hand held weapons and explosives in SG are far more powerful than anything ST can dish out in land warfare. In continuum Tealc detonates an apple sized Goa'uld explosive that destroys the whole time traveling facility that Baal had built to prevent Ketesh from using it. So it was basically the equivalent of a thermal detonator in Star Wars. Then there is the super gunpowder with which the ZPM was tampered with that again you keep ignoring as I said watch the episode it was never the ZPM that had the explosive power but the dust it had been covered with.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

That is again going by visuals alone and trumping out dialogue something made popular by a certain infamous vs debate website specially among recalcitrant Star Wars fans who think their pet universe trumps just about all there is.

With those examples I have given to you we get both visual and diologue examples both corroborating each other.
It's said that 30% of the planet's crust in The Die Is Cast and we see massive shockwaves spreading accross the Founder's planet.
With the Enterprise we're told the mountain on the moon, which the NX-01 destroys is the size of mount mckinley.

With SG the more common evidence is visual and the diologue is very vague without giving much if anything in the way of size comparisons.

The funny thing is hand held weapons and explosives in SG are far more powerful than anything ST can dish out in land warfare. In continuum Tealc detonates an apple sized Goa'uld explosive that destroys the whole time traveling facility that Baal had built to prevent Ketesh from using it. So it was basically the equivalent of a thermal detonator in Star Wars. Then there is the super gunpowder with which the ZPM was tampered with that again you keep ignoring as I said watch the episode it was never the ZPM that had the explosive power but the dust it had been covered with.

I think not, hand held phasers and explosives in ST have been used to actually vaporise fairly large targets.
In DS9 during the Dominion war Lakarian city (that's on Cardassia if I'm not mistaken) is decimated in moments by the Dominion forces and I believe 2 million people are killed in a very short space of time, which would show very serious hand/people weaponry, far more powerful than that of the Jaffa.
Small explosives have been shown in Voyager to destroy parts or all of a borg ship.
According to wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_weapon

One gram of Antimatter and one gram of Matter annihilating each other would apparently produce a 42.96 kiloton yield explosion, which is apparently 3 times the size the hiroshima nuke detonation.
Ounces would still produce massive explosions and easily fit into the explosives used in ST.

BTW I've ignored nothing and that dust was a part of the ZPM casing, it's what Carter used to guess how powerful the explosion from a ZPM would be.
She even uses it to show what it would do to a metal tray.

Don't tell me to go back and watch the episode, I've seen it many times, have the DVDs from all of season 8.
If you're suggesting that dust would be more powerful than the ZPM then that is very ridiculous, ZPMs are only beaten in power by things like Arcturus, they are clearly not beaten by anything Goauld made.

[RJLCyberPunk]

Actually all we see is concentric circles forming in the clouds not actual explosions as we do when they attack the replicator planet in Atlantis with MK9s now those were explosions and were clearly huge!

The MK9 is easy a low digit Theraton weapon. And no that dust was not part of the casing, the casing had been sprinkled with that dust. And the Goa'uld did develop Naquadriah which is what the Gatbuster MK9 bombs are made off.


The Show Enterprise shows far better weaponry and explosions than any of the other shows that preceeded it, in fact the weapons in Enterprise seem far more powerful than at any other time period in ST which is why some suggest that the Romulans won the war and the treaty stipulated a strict weapons powerdown and banned Earth and latter the federation from pursuing cloaking tech which it was abide by until the dominion war centuries latter. I will agree that they could outnumber SG ships though and numbers anihilate even if power figures do not... But the power figures in SG are too chaotic to make sense of anything, even the ship scales vary. As someone else said you might as well try to find if Santa had real flying reindeer.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Actually all we see is concentric circles forming in the clouds not actual explosions as we do when they attack the replicator planet in Atlantis with MK9s now those were explosions and were clearly huge!

No we see massive dust clouds spreading accross far larger areas than those mark 9 nukes and we have diologue stating that 30% of the planet's crust is destroyed.

The MK9 is easy a low digit Theraton weapon. And no that dust was not part of the casing, the casing had been sprinkled with that dust. And the Goa'uld did develop Naquadriah which is what the Gatbuster MK9 bombs are made off.

The Mark 9 is stated to be multi-gigaton not a teraton weapon so that's a lie.
Professor Lee used the dust as an example of the kind of power the ZPM would deliver if it was plugged into the outpost in Antarctica.
I had forgotten that Carter read Lee's report and made an "educated" guess as to the power of the explosion the ZPM would deliver.
There is no way that dust is more powerful than the ZPM, they only said they managed to scrape microscopic fragments off the casing of the ZPM and that the ZPM had been tampered, it is a massive leap to think that some magic dust that was more powerful than the energy contained within a ZPM.
A ZPM has never actually been shown to be even powerful enough to destroy an Asuran city ship by itself, in fact 3 of them are needed to do so, so the assessment made by Carter at the time was incorrect at the time since the power of such devices in an explosive sense was wrong in season 8 of SG1.

The Show Enterprise shows far better weaponry and explosions than any of the other shows that preceeded it, in fact the weapons in Enterprise seem far more powerful than at any other time period in ST which is why some suggest that the Romulans won the war and the treaty stipulated a strict weapons powerdown and banned Earth and latter the federation from pursuing cloaking tech which it was abide by until the dominion war centuries latter. I will agree that they could outnumber SG ships though and numbers anihilate even if power figures do not... But the power figures in SG are too chaotic to make sense of anything, even the ship scales vary. As someone else said you might as well try to find if Santa had real flying reindeer.

As I've stated both diologue and visuals in DS9 have shown that technology has progressed since enterprise, also the fact that later vessels such as constitution class vessels have no problem in dealing with such firepower from an NX class vessel, which is far greater in strength than even the Ori's main weapon shows that Stargate vessels would be annihilated easily by Federation weapons, which are no where near as strong as those of the Borg, or any other main race (Romulans, Klingons, Dominion, Cardassian).
Even taking SG at it's strongest point it still wouldn't be a match for even the earlier ships of ST.

At least you finally agree that the numbers in ST are far superior to SG.
BTW no one said starfleet had to limit tech development, later weapons still kick the backside of those older starfleet ships, the only weapons or tech starfleet doesn't use is stuff that is underhand or uncontrollable, like cloaking tech or subspace weapons, but their technology is easily modified to make new things possible in a short space of time.
Janeway's shuttle in Endgame had stealth tech that was similar to cloaking tech so it's obviously not such a big thing in the future.
Things that are unethical are also not really considered tolerable to use by the federation, so a situation where a life form or life forms who weren't being hostile and threatening federation citizens or a world that is unable to defend itself then a weapon that could cause them harm in the process of using it wouldn't be used, but it would probably be a situation type thing, if a big a***ed powerful anti-matter weapon was needed then it would probably be used if necessary.
Also before Endgame it would seem like no amount of Federation, Klingon or any number of ships could destroy a Borg ship, without knowing a weak point on a Borg Cube or coming from an entirely different region of space, but a few years after the main ST timeline a Transphasic torpedo or two can wipe one out in an instant, which kinda makes your statement of weaker future tech moot.

[boxdudea]

I would think that the Gouauld are very primitive in there weponry they use the pulse cannons used on early Romulan 22nd technology and that they have extremely weak shielding and can easily be destroyed with 3 photon torpedos and 1 quantom torpedo. The only thing that the Goauld have that is superior to the other is the fact that the have faster FTL than star trek does.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

If an NX class starship has phase cannons which are far superior to the weapons of the Ori then one shot kills with that level of tech on Ha'Taks is basically a certainty, later 22nd century tech with their level of weapons tech of that time could be used on drastically lower settings than maximum to achieve the same results.
Ships like 304s are significantly stronger than Ha'Taks, but I still don't see how one could take more than a couple of Phase Cannon shots from an NX class starship or any amont of firepower on high settings from later ships, ZPM powered 304s while stronger still aren't gonna be taking more than a few shots than ships from Kirks time and vessels from the 24th century would just crush them like tiny bugs if they felt the need.
The only area that ST lacks in is FTL propulsion and even then it's not that far behind at the end of Voyager, with slipstream technology only really just over the horizon, an improvement in computer and sensor technology will probably allow for it's use and put Starfleet on intergalactic Asgard propulsion level, basically closing the gap in that area.
At this point what I'm starting to think is even the entire SG universe united couldn't stand a chance against even a small fleet from Starfleet, not that I think Earth from SG, the Ancients or Asgard would fight them, since they all fight the baddies of their own universe and both good sides from the universe would likely join each other in ridding their respective universes of evil.

[RJLCyberPunk]

I would think that the Gouauld are very primitive in there weponry they use the pulse cannons used on early Romulan 22nd technology and that they have extremely weak shielding and can easily be destroyed with 3 photon torpedos and 1 quantom torpedo. The only thing that the Goauld have that is superior to the other is the fact that the have faster FTL than star trek does.

The weapons are completely different but most SG weapons seem to be plasma based whether in bolts or a continous stream like the Ori and Asgard beam weapons. Still the fact that some plasma beings in SG have properties no such beam should have defy explanation as again does the dialogue vs the visuals. If we were to go by visuals alone I don't think SG could go even against thwe universe of Base moon Alpha a show from the 70s with rocket fuel ships, Even their weaponry was far more powerful visually speaking...

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Just thought I should draw some attention to your new thread:
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...0#post12355770

Special mention of boxdudea, myself and tetsujin is made in that thread.

[RJLCyberPunk]

Just thought I should draw some attention to your new thread:
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...0#post12355770

Special mention of boxdudea, myself and tetsujin is made in that thread.

I never mentioned Tetsujin though. But what is clear is that this thread shows without a doubt that the Stargate franchise is the weakest one ever created in all of human history, case closed, why do you have a problem with that? By the way I did link your thread to mine long before you linked yours to mine...

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I never mentioned Tetsujin though. But what is clear is that this thread shows without a doubt that the Stargate franchise is the weakest one ever created in all of human history, case closed, why do you have a problem with that? By the way I did link your thread to mine long before you linked yours to mine...

No I mentioned tetsujin, because he's been a part of the discussion here for some time, boxdudea hasn't been here as long to my knowledge.
If you want to say Stargate is weaker than any other show, then that's up to you.
When you misrepresent a thread then I have a problem yes, this thread has dicussed Star Trek Vs Stargate and that's all as far as i know.
Talking about other sci-fi shows would be off topic here.

I only just found out about your thread, so I thought I'd just make sure people here knew about it, I also PM'ed Tetsujin in case he missed it and wanted to comment for himself.

[thekillman]

i don't get how people say SG is the weakest franchise. i count one device to end our universe, one to end other universes, and one to annihilate the multiverse. i count several planet-shattering weapons, and i'm not even talking about the plethora of time travel devices and AU devices.


in the end, the only True replicators will kick everyone's asses.

also naquahdah> antimatter and naquahdriah > naquahdah therefore Naquahdriah>Naquahdah>antimatter.

therefore SG tech > ST tech.

not to mention what happens when intelligent people start using SG tech. ask Crazy tom. bring aspirine though. planet shattering will never be cheaper than that.


oh and i forgot to mention that in ST, the limiting factor is technology. in SG, it's the people that USE technology. in a realistic setting, the Ori would've kicked so much ass, season 9 would've lasted about 5 minutes.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

i don't get how people say SG is the weakest franchise.

RJLCyberPunk is the only one saying SG is the weakest, just because in this thread a few people reached the conclusion that in a ship based war the ST races would defeat the SG races in combat that doesn't mean SG is the weakest of all of the franchises.

i count one device to end our universe, one to end other universes, and one to annihilate the multiverse. i count several planet-shattering weapons, and i'm not even talking about the plethora of time travel devices and AU devices.

Well we did say ship vs ship, ST has the soloton wave weapon though which would kill other planets when fired from another one and depending on the size of the weapon then it may even be possible to fit it on a ship, plenty of time travel technology, the franchise didn't have universal weapons of mass destruction though (unless I've forgotten something), but since these aren't ship based or ship combat weapons they're kinda off topic anyway.
I'm not saying they wouldn't end the ST universe, but they don't really fit into the discussion.
In reality like I said before the Ancients (who seem to be responsible for those galaxy/universal WMDs), Asgard, Humans (from Earth), Starfleet and their allies are very unlikely to fight each other, but battling the baddies of their own or each other's universes that I can see happening.

in the end, the only True replicators will kick everyone's asses.

From what we've seen of the more commonly displayed evidence in SG and ST, whether it's diologue or visual, that ships use, we have to gauge the starting point of each side, ST has planet denting weapons (in the 24th century of the show), used on a regular basis, descriptions of weapons that can do such things, SG doesn't, it has mountains taking some time to destroy with one of the most powerful races on the show, that and if we look at the evidence SG has to offer would put the Replicators as a weaker race in terms of firepower, this to me shows the Replicators would be much less powerful than the likes of The Borg, Starfleet, klingons etc.
Previous pages can be used for reference here, I'm not gonna dig up all the evidence that's already there to view.

also naquahdah> antimatter and naquahdriah > naquahdah therefore Naquahdriah>Naquahdah>antimatter.

How powerful is say a gram of Naquadah, next to a gram of M/AM?

therefore SG tech > ST tech.

Look at the evidence given on the previous pages, this has been rebutted before.

not to mention what happens when intelligent people start using SG tech. ask Crazy tom. bring aspirine though. planet shattering will never be cheaper than that.

With this debate we were looking at how each show uses it's own technology, at least that's what I was doing, but still you could say the same for Star Trek, if I used the tech of the show I'd just spam every enemy world with a fleet of Dreadnaughts built with a larger enough hold of AM/M to kill a super giant, armed with Transphasic torpedos, protected by endgame level Ablative hull armor and propelled by the most advanced slip stream drives.
That's not all take the year of hell and use a fleet of Anorax's ships or form an alliance with the Q and you're probably done.

oh and i forgot to mention that in ST, the limiting factor is technology. in SG, it's the people that USE technology. in a realistic setting, the Ori would've kicked so much ass, season 9 would've lasted about 5 minutes.

I'm sure fans can still come up with their share of ways to use ST tech better than the characters on the show, the Dominion war would've gone pretty differently if the Dominion had just hit every federation world with dreadnaughtsm even on a similar level to the one shown in Voyager.
I agree to a point though, characters can always be made to be more intelligent and things can definitely be cheapened, but I guess it wouldn't be so fun and entertaining.