Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Whether the weapons were given enhanced power by an alien device or modified, the termology doesn't matter. Without that device, the feat in Silent Enemy would not have been possible. Plus, that much power flowing through the power grid caused damage to the ship, not a good thing when you're in a firefight!

As Tetsujin has pointed out in one of his recent posts (#869) the device was destroyed by Archer when the second attempt at firing the phase cannons was made, I have checked for myself and that is what takes place in the episode, you can check it out for yourself in this link here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRqZbv4PNf0, T'Pol also mentions the energy output of the device and using an online megajoule to megaton converter it's no where near even a single Megaton, not even a kiloton's worth of power.
So we can say that under an overload situation the enterprise is capable of the level of firepower we see, which if McKinley is larger than Cheyenne would prove greater firepower than the alt reality Ha'Tak.

With the 200MT business, not only is it supported by dialogue, but also from the Beach Head calculations, which establish several hundred megatons per shot for Goa'uld vessels. Given the size of the shield at the time of detonation, it is not unreasonable to assume that the shield would have absorbed most, if not all, of the energy from the nuke, and the 812GT figure is a conservative estimate for the size of the explosion. Whilst I agree that the events of Memories of Jolinar and Summit are not backed up by visuals and should not be taken as hard data, when put in context with the high energy events we know of they make sense.

It's supported in a single diologue instance and never actually supported by anything from Beach Head since the accurate yield of the Mark 9 isn't ever stated and we do not have a reference for the size of the planet.
The shields used by the Ori may have absorbed the majority of the Mark 9's energy, but you do not know if anything else was present on the planet that may have affected the yield and since we have no clue of the exact size of the planet and the camera is an unknown distance from the planet it's impossible to state the exact yield of the weapon, so you cannot give anything but a wide range of what the blast yield could be.

I'll grant that the collision and detonation of power sources would make an impact on the size of the explosion- however, this is a good indication of the sort of power sources SG plays with, and this is before Anubis came along with his improved technology.

Like I said there was a base there, that could have had a lot of Naquadah present in the area, on top of what was on the ship.
If it was solely Ha'Tak's power source, then it shows the total detonation of all of the Naquadah and anything else explosive on the vessel, it doesn't prove power per shot over the total life of the ship's service or how much power a Ha'Tak can deliver in a battle situation.

See, with SG you can rationalise the low firepower we see- we know the Goa'uld like to be worshipped as gods (which you can't do if you kill all your prospective worshippers) and they like to scanvage for technology (which you can't do if you've vapourised said technology). With ST, we have no visual examples of high firepower (certainly not when compared to SG) and even dialogue to support low firepower. Only Relics offers any kind of proof of high shield strength for ST and this example is not concrete.

They've killed some, not all and they didn't need their worshippers, not all of them.
You cannot use this to rationalize every incidence.
Like Tetsujin pointed out what about the Tollan.
There are many times in stargate when villages were wiped out by the Goauld, they didn't care about their worshippers.
I cannot think of a single incidence of high firepower being shown for Goauld weaponry except for in Daniel dream in Absolute power and it's not clear if the Goauld could make such technology.
With Star Trek we have the NX-01's phase cannon overload, many diologue references to the power of Star Trek weapons, so I'm afraid that is not accurate.
No one ever states what the pulse cannons min/max yield is on a Ha'Tak, even the There But For The Grace of God's 200MT shots at cities isn't stated to be a quick fire weapon and it is not concretely supported by Beach Head as has been pointed out to you.
On a regular basis we see only visual examples of Goauld and other Alien ship's weapons and none of them look particularly impressive in the size of their explosions, save for Earth Nukes and their power is usually only impressive in atmosphere.

As far as planetary size is concerned, the most reasonable thing to assume is that the planet was earth-sized. This is best done for all the habitable planets we see on both SG and ST, as it levels the playing field. As I mentioned earlier, there's good reason to think that the shield absorbed most if not all of the energy from the explosion.

I don't agree, planet sizes would vary, you may get some here and there that are the same or close to earth, but as far as I'm aware densities of materials on the planets would affect gravity, so you cannot assume every world we see is exactly the same perfect earth copy.
The most fair thing is to assume nothing since you don't know anything regarding this point.
There may be good reason to assume the shield absored most of the blast's energy (not all since I think that would break the laws of physics), but since you don't know anything about what else could have been down there you don't know all the blasts energy came from the nuke.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...s/Shield1.html

What in that link proves the terawatt figure for A Matter Of Time?
I don't know where I'm meant to be looking.

I agree that consistency is important. That's why I argue for low firepower and shield strength for Star Trek. It's what we see in the visuals, and it's supported by dialogue.

We're regularly told firepower or effects of Star Trek weapons, we have visual evidence in some instances, that is backed up by diologue too, you cannot say the same for Stargate I'm afraid, this is why I support the Star Trek side of this argument.

Funnily enough, I was watching a documentary about the sun earlier, and charged particles are one of the factors behind electrical disturbances during periods of high solar activity. They do not however, cause phyiscal damage to the power grid.

Tetsujin made a good point about this in his reply to your post to me.

Nothing is absolutely perfect. However, judging from the look of the asteroids, they were not the iron-nickel type. They looked distinctly rocky. I am willing to stake my reputation on it.

No specifics are stated, they don't state it's all rock and like Tetsujin said protoplanetary asteroids have anything that could be present on a world, since that includes things like metals that asteroid could have had those in it too even though it looks rocky on the outside.

Then the logical conclusion, based on what we see of the firepower of torpedoes, is that they don't carry a lot of anti-matter to begin with.

My point was the antimatter reserves could have been drained from the ship

The most straight-forward way to stop first contact would be to destroy the warp ship. One direct hit from a modern-day bunker buster bomb would do it. Bombs from a WWII bomber could do it. Yet several shots from the sphere could not achieve this. They'd have to be scraping the barrel of their reserves to require several shots to do barely any damage. It doesn't make any logical sense for them to achieve so little.

We do not know what the Borg's intent was other than assimilation, so you shouldn't automatically assume weak weapons, especially given previous displays weapon power from weaker races than the Borg in ST (like the 200 year older NX-01).
If it was the Borg's intent to destroy the warp ship at that time and if they were in a rush to do so (which there was no indication of) then they could have simply beamed an explosive charge of some kind into an area with rocket fuel and detonated it or as Tetsujin pointed out crash something through the Earth's atmosphere and land it at high speed into the Phoenix.
I could even speculate and say the Borg were trying to cause people to be afraid to mess with our morale.

If it's the result of orbital bombardment then it's hardly impressive- we can do more damage with modern day nukes.

No one knows whether it was or not, but since the image is very similar to What You Leave Behind it's more likely the result of a ground assault.

And yet the visuals do not correspond, not once, to the stated speeds- and this goes for SG as well as ST.

Like Tetsujing said fast speeds with just thrusters are shown in Pegasus and The Motion Picture.

Even if we factor in the flares, we have to remember that an Hatak sat in a more energetic region of a more energetic star for longer. The end result is that Hatak shield strength is greater than a Federation starship's shield strength.

Don't think I can add anything that Tetsujin hasn't already stated.

They'd abandoned the sphere, as a result of the star's instability. If they had the means to protect themselves somehow from the dangers of the star, they would not have abandoned it.

Like Tetsujin said if you don't have to face a danger then you can just leave.
We're assuming, as did everyone on the Enterprise that the inhabitance of the sphere left because of the Star's instability, there could also have been some other unknown reason, I don't know what, but it could have been for any reason.
Maybe they wanted to build a bigger sphere else where and didn't like living there anymore.
Maybe they ascended Ancients style, it's been mentioned in Enterprise before.
Point is ultimately no one knows, since there was still vegetation and a few big flares would only effect a small portion of the sphere most of it would still be ok.
Effects of radiation on any part of the sphere's inner surface would have been evident if they were a problem, we saw none from what I remember.

What I'd like to propose is that we move beyond firepower for a moment, as we're likely to continue to disagree on those issues. What say we look at the tactical and stragetic side of things- fleet strength for example?

I don't think it's really necessary, I still think the only area ST is weaker in is speed, too me everything else is in ST's favour, planetary defenses combat Stargate's speed too IMO so I don't know what else can be added.

I'll continue to discuss everything above if you like.

[darth_timon]

I think we are fast approaching the point where the only thing we can hope to discuss is a war scenario- we are approaching the firepower arguments with very different means, and cannot agree on either the hiarachy of evidence or how best to analyse said evidence. If we cannot agree to even those points, then we're going to go round in circles.

A scenario which instead looks at the two forces locked in a stragetic and tactical fight will, in some respects, tell us a lot more. It requires us to look at logistics, which is easier, as the evidence is a little less open to interpretation by either party.

The best scenario I can think of would involve placing the Goa'uld in the same 'universe' as the Federation, perhaps with territory that even borders the Federation. The two sides are hostile to one another (for any number of reasons- the System Lords don't exactly make friends easily), and we should perhaps, to make things fair, assume they have the same sized territory (Picard said the Federation is spread across 8000LY, so lets use that figure). Both sides have planets to defend, and resources to look after.

In terms of fleet strength, the only hint at numbers for the Goa'uld is from Season 6's Disclosure, which suggests hundreds, or maybe thousands, of Hataks, for the combined forces of the System Lords. The number of Alkesh isn't mentioned, but Alkesh tend to be more for ground support than fleet engagements anyway.

For the Federation, we're talking anywhere from 3,000 to 10,000, based on fleet movements from the Dominion War. They were able to absorb loses of hundreds of ships without replacing them, so they must have several thousand ships, but again, precise numbers have never been pinned down. However, one thing I am willing to concede right away is that the Federation has a larger fleet, with a versatile range of vessels.

In any such scenario though, the stragetic advantages of hyperdrive could allow the Goa'uld to move with impunity through Federation space and strike anywhere without the risk of being intercepted- at least, certainly not being intercepted en masse. Whilst major planets like earth would probably be well defended, the Federation has many colonies, which are all over Federation space, and it would be impossible to defend all of them at once. Especially if they have to prioritise major targets over minor ones. The Goa'uld not be able to outright defend the Federation, but they could certainly wipe out smaller colonies, and make the rest feel vulnerable, creating a climate of fear across the Federation.

[Tetsujin]

I think we are fast approaching the point where the only thing we can hope to discuss is a war scenario- we are approaching the firepower arguments with very different means, and cannot agree on either the hiarachy of evidence or how best to analyse said evidence. If we cannot agree to even those points, then we're going to go round in circles.

A scenario which instead looks at the two forces locked in a stragetic and tactical fight will, in some respects, tell us a lot more. It requires us to look at logistics, which is easier, as the evidence is a little less open to interpretation by either party.

The best scenario I can think of would involve placing the Goa'uld in the same 'universe' as the Federation, perhaps with territory that even borders the Federation. The two sides are hostile to one another (for any number of reasons- the System Lords don't exactly make friends easily), and we should perhaps, to make things fair, assume they have the same sized territory (Picard said the Federation is spread across 8000LY, so lets use that figure). Both sides have planets to defend, and resources to look after.

In terms of fleet strength, the only hint at numbers for the Goa'uld is from Season 6's Disclosure, which suggests hundreds, or maybe thousands, of Hataks, for the combined forces of the System Lords. The number of Alkesh isn't mentioned, but Alkesh tend to be more for ground support than fleet engagements anyway.

For the Federation, we're talking anywhere from 3,000 to 10,000, based on fleet movements from the Dominion War. They were able to absorb loses of hundreds of ships without replacing them, so they must have several thousand ships, but again, precise numbers have never been pinned down. However, one thing I am willing to concede right away is that the Federation has a larger fleet, with a versatile range of vessels.

In any such scenario though, the stragetic advantages of hyperdrive could allow the Goa'uld to move with impunity through Federation space and strike anywhere without the risk of being intercepted- at least, certainly not being intercepted en masse. Whilst major planets like earth would probably be well defended, the Federation has many colonies, which are all over Federation space, and it would be impossible to defend all of them at once. Especially if they have to prioritise major targets over minor ones. The Goa'uld not be able to outright defend the Federation, but they could certainly wipe out smaller colonies, and make the rest feel vulnerable, creating a climate of fear across the Federation.

In reality, both me and Phoenix are approaching the firepower issue in different ways and both have proved superior firepower in ST. You have yet to even rebut instanced of phasers drilling kilometers into planets on low power which would require substantial power. As well as instances of Planet destroying capability, and mountain destroying ability respectively. While you have given example that may possibly show hjgher SG weapons power, you have not given a single instance that would prove superior SG weapons. The simple visual and mechanical similarities of phasers to the plasma beam weapon that has been demonstrated as extremely effective against SG shielding also does not bode well for SG ships in general. This you have also not really addressed. In essence there is more logical evidence stacked against you than you have for the contrary.

Even though try and further the scenario you still have not addressed the many issues that would come with that scenario that I have stated in my previous posts. Until that happens, an all out war scenario wouldnt be realistic. You didnt even bother to address a very prime concern of if we are in the ST universe there would be no naquadah which most known SG technology is heavily reliant on. Even if we ignore this there are still all the issues I have previously raised such as removed limitation on ST weapons, and technology that could logically be used as a weapon. For example, a weaponized version of the Soliton wave would be capable of destroying any Goa'uld occupied planet and most stationary bases at extreme range, and since the Goa'uld cant interact with real space while travelling in FTL the same solution to stop the wave would be much less likely compounded by the fact that a weaponized variation would be faster and stronger making it even harder to disperse.In reality we havent even seen the a fraction of the full extent of ST WMDs thanks to the writers and I can think of more than a few ways a single starship could take out a large chunk of a planet and most any other stationary target even with equipment used in the show at present.


Also in the ST universe the Goa'uld would not have a workforce to bulld their ships and weapons and gather materials and would have to rely entirely on the Jaffa. I can see military strategy being used to quickly turn the system lords against each other and incite rebellion in the jaffa which would cripple the Goa'uld war machine entirely.
So as it turns out 1 on 1 is not only less of a headache but is in SGs best interest.

[Tetsujin]

I would also like to further my case against suspension of disbelief by referencing the numerous instances of the inaccurate portrayal of Ltcmdr. Data. He is almost never portrayed correctly in comparison to his stated ability. The very fact that he can miss while shooting a phaser should be enough proof. In any hand to hand combat situation data should by all accounts outstrip all combatants that anyone on his teams should only need to watch as he pummels the opposition single-handedly due to is extreme strength, near-infinite endurace, near lightspeed reflexes, and metal body. Data should be comparable to Rommie from Andromeda but possibly better, and even she is rarely portrayed as she should be due to the limitations of the actors.

Care to explain all that through suspension of disbelief?

[darth_timon]

Your take on the war scenario is completely unreasonable. I am proposing a level playing field, where both sides have their respective resources and workforces. If I were to introduce the Federation as a political entity in the SGverse, I would not declare their resources gone. I am not even going to bother with things like the Soliton wave and other one-off events for either side, since they are not standard weapons and we never see them again, even in times of war.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I don't think what Tetsujin said was completely unreasonable, he said if this took place in the Star Trek universe, there would be no Naquadah, since it's never been shown on the show and that's canon.
Of course if you said something like the Goauld occupy a large portion of the Delta, Gamma or Beta quadrants which hasn't been discovered by any race connected with the federation then you could make a case for Naquadah only existing on those worlds owned by the Goauld.
Darth I think you missed the part where Tetsujin said if we ignore the whole lack of Naquadah thing, so he didn't outright state that Naquadah shouldn't exist, maybe that would be the case in the Star Trek universe if we have a scenario where the Goauld or whatever Stargate race develops some means to jump to the ST universe then Naquadah can't be stated to exist.
Basically it all depends on how you say the scenario comes to be, although I guess it's possible for Naquadah to exist in the proper Star Trek universe if you said it was called something else by the federation and other ST races or like I said it just exists somewhere that's not been explored by anyone but the Goauld yet.

When it comes to special weapons you could rationalise that the Soliton wave tech may not be used at full power by the Federation because it's a means of mass genocide, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be used.
If we're stating that the Goauld are present in the ST milky way then how would we deal with the lack of Stargates on every world like Earth and other perfectly fine, habitable worlds?
Since they don't exist in ST canon, would you just say the Ancients only placed them on the Goauld's worlds?
Or would you say the Goauld took them from all worlds around the Galaxy ten thousand years ago and placed them on only their own worlds and they took weapons like Dakara and all other pieces of the Ancients galaxy wide weapons?

Or do we completely omit everything created by the Ancients and just deal with the Goauld if this takes place in the ST universe?

We can't ignore things that are canon to ST if the war takes place in the ST universe's milky way, in the same way we wouldn't be expected to ignore anything from SG canon if the war took place in the SG universe.

We still need to gauge how strong one group's ship strength is compared to the next, since that's what this thread is about, we also need to factor in other races where we can.
Unless we have a scale for how strong each ship from SG is against it's ST counterpart we can't really even guess at how a war would unfold.

[darth_timon]

I did miss the part about ignoring the lack of naquadah, so apologies for jumping the gun a bit with that- and perhaps I should explain my concept in more detail.

I am not taking away the work force, resources or industrial base of either party, regardless of what universe we set our scenario in. I have in fact, suggested a scenario which reduces the size of Goa'uld territory, reducing it from a galaxy-spanning territory to one no bigger than Federation space.

All things therefore being equal (pretending that firepower and defences are equal), I am then considering stragetic details such the speed of ships, which can make all the difference. The System Lords have much faster ships, and can deploy forces anywhere in Federation space without the Federation being able to respond. They can try to defend all their colonies, or they can focus on key locations and leave their smaller worlds vulnerable.

I disagree with the likelihood of things like the Soliton wave being used as weapons, for the reasons I already mentioned- we don't see them deployed during the Dominion War, and indeed we don't tend to see any superweapons of any kind used during the War. The Federation would fight such a war in a conventional way, if we take what we see of the Dominion War as evidence.

I also refer back to my stance that, as we cannot agree on the best way to analyse the evidence, or what the hiarchy should be, it is going to be difficult, if not impossible, to reach agreement on firepower. You feel you have addressed my points, I feel I have addressed yours, and we are coming at the matter from totally different directions.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I did miss the part about ignoring the lack of naquadah, so apologies for jumping the gun a bit with that- and perhaps I should explain my concept in more detail.

No worries, just thought I'd point it out.

I am not taking away the work force, resources or industrial base of either party, regardless of what universe we set our scenario in. I have in fact, suggested a scenario which reduces the size of Goa'uld territory, reducing it from a galaxy-spanning territory to one no bigger than Federation space.

I think if there was a scenario where the Goauld had existed in the ST universe and just remained within their territory for thousands of years after exploring the galaxy, taking Humans from Earth back to their realm then that could work.
Although to be honest it's not really that realistic to assume the Goauld wouldn't have spread throughout the galaxy if they went unchallanged by a superior force, unless a race such as the Voth or some unknown power beat them back years ago, perhaps the Asgard came from Ida and did that?
Personally I have no problem keeping the Jaffa and Human slaves, if they are just present in the Goauld's territory and separate from regular Humans.
If the Goauld were present in the ST universe then if thousands of years ago they'd gathered slaves from the Milly Way they'd probably have different species of Jaffa and a variety of slaves that are different races.

All things therefore being equal (pretending that firepower and defences are equal), I am then considering stragetic details such the speed of ships, which can make all the difference. The System Lords have much faster ships, and can deploy forces anywhere in Federation space without the Federation being able to respond. They can try to defend all their colonies, or they can focus on key locations and leave their smaller worlds vulnerable.

See for me this is where I cannot agree.
I don't see how the Goauld can be equal to a group such as the federation or any main race on the show such as the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians etc, because we have canon examples of high firepower on ST, in many cases planet denting level, which isn't witnessed in SG, not for the Goauld.
While I agree the Goauld would be a considerable degree faster than their warp capable counterparts (if we assume the war happens at a time when the federation isn't using slipstream) you cannot rule out Goauld vessels being captured by the ST races and technologies being copied, same goes for the Goauld perhaps copying phasers and such if they get hold of weaker ST ships.
There's also the issue of planetary defences and densely packed races for ST.
What about the Goauld not being a unified group?

I disagree with the likelihood of things like the Soliton wave being used as weapons, for the reasons I already mentioned- we don't see them deployed during the Dominion War, and indeed we don't tend to see any superweapons of any kind used during the War. The Federation would fight such a war in a conventional way, if we take what we see of the Dominion War as evidence.

I do agree it's not SF's style to use such superweapons, guess we have to stick with using the honerable character of klingons and the Federation, don't know about the Dominion, Cardassians or Romulans though.
I definitely wouldn't put it past the Borg arriving in Goauld occupied and using such a weapon if they knew it existed.

I also refer back to my stance that, as we cannot agree on the best way to analyse the evidence, or what the hiarchy should be, it is going to be difficult, if not impossible, to reach agreement on firepower. You feel you have addressed my points, I feel I have addressed yours, and we are coming at the matter from totally different directions.

The problem is for me it's paramount to have a realistic gauge of who is stronger than who and to what degree.
We cannot just assume each ship is equal, you wouldn't for instance say a galaxy class ship was the same as an excelsior, sovereign or defiant, science ships or 80 year old classes that are still in service, same goes for older Romulan, Klingon and race's ships.
You wouldn't after seeing Nemesis put the sovereign class starships in the same league as a scimitar, to put all Star Trek ships on a similar level isn't in any way fair.
You aren't gonna say ST ships are instantly hyperdrive capable from the start of the battle, so why should we say ST ships are much weaker than the show points to them being, just to make things more convenient?
If we play numbers against Goauld speed, then even on a similar level Star Trek is gonna win, because you don't just have one ST group versus the Goauld, you have at least four, with what amounts to tens of thousands of ships for the Goauld to contend with using possibly a couple of thousand if we're generous.

[darth_timon]

Urgh, am full of curry and to a lesser extent, beer, so if my response is not so coherent as usual, don't be surprised! (Lamb Tikka Bhuna = YUM!)

I don't disagree that we need to consider more details for such a scenario, but what I am proposing is, for the time being, we ignore the firepower debate, which is going nowhere, and just focus on the logistics and stragetic elements. We can set up any sort of scenario that we feel is appropriate to bring Goa'uld territory up close to Federation space. We can even suggest the idea that the Federation has gone unnoticed as a power within the SGverse, and that quite by accident, they reveal themselves to the System Lords.

In any event, if we consider the wider picture (namely that we also factor in the likes of the Dominion, Klingons, Borg etc) then we should also consider the impact of forces like the Asgard, Replicators and the Ori. What I'd rather do, for the meantime, is consider the Goa'uld v Federation situation. Lets assume that the System Lords have banded together (as they did against Anubis) to fight the Federation.

In such a scenario, even assuming that Goa'uld territory was only a matter of hours or days away by warp, hyperdrive would allow the Goa'uld to strike anywhere in Federation space in a matter of minutes. To avoid massive civilian casualties, the Federation would have to try and defend key locations, or try to defend everything- but either way, they cannot adaquately defend everything at once.

[Tetsujin]

Urgh, am full of curry and to a lesser extent, beer, so if my response is not so coherent as usual, don't be surprised! (Lamb Tikka Bhuna = YUM!)

I don't disagree that we need to consider more details for such a scenario, but what I am proposing is, for the time being, we ignore the firepower debate, which is going nowhere, and just focus on the logistics and stragetic elements. We can set up any sort of scenario that we feel is appropriate to bring Goa'uld territory up close to Federation space. We can even suggest the idea that the Federation has gone unnoticed as a power within the SGverse, and that quite by accident, they reveal themselves to the System Lords.

Like I said before it would be a great loss if technologies were brought up to the best classes on each side. While the Soliton wave was not used as a weapon during the dominion war it is a viable weapon if we are going to get rid off all philosophical and political limitations of ST, and we would have to in all fairness since you propose eliminating and/or ignoring the political and philosophical limitations of the Goa'uld. That would mean the ST races could employ subspace weapons, federation ships could cloak, and the soliton wave or any other massively destructive ST weapon could be employed to destroy the Goa'uld worlds and bases.

In any event, if we consider the wider picture (namely that we also factor in the likes of the Dominion, Klingons, Borg etc) then we should also consider the impact of forces like the Asgard, Replicators and the Ori. What I'd rather do, for the meantime, is consider the Goa'uld v Federation situation. Lets assume that the System Lords have banded together (as they did against Anubis) to fight the Federation.

I assumed it was just going to be just SF versus the Goa'uld at this point since going any further would just compound the issues. Even if we did enter all races from both sides, there would be races that would obviously have to be excluded such as the Ori. Asgard and Lanteans would be more fair but definitely not the Ori since ascended knowledge and help would be like cheating.

In such a scenario, even assuming that Goa'uld territory was only a matter of hours or days away by warp, hyperdrive would allow the Goa'uld to strike anywhere in Federation space in a matter of minutes. To avoid massive civilian casualties, the Federation would have to try and defend key locations, or try to defend everything- but either way, they cannot adaquately defend everything at once.

Hyperdrive is limited to 32,000c for all Ha'tak class vessels and faster only for motherships since there has been no indication of a standard Ha'tak going any faster. While definately faster than a standard warp capable ship the most advanced federation ships are able to employ quantum slipstream drives which are much faster than most Goa'uld hyperdrives and have been shown to reach speeds of over 1 million c. Prometheus, Soverign, Intrepid(probably with tweaking to the SIF and hull), Vesta, and maybe others, are all able to employ slipstream drives which would turn the tables and put the Goa'uld on the defensive as far as fleet movements are concerned.

Even if we dont take into account technology stealing and the superweapons ST possesses. Logical military strategy would force the ST side into defending at best possible effectiveness which would probably leave a good portion of colonies and world almost completely undefended asside from planetary shield grids and orbital weapons platforms, but leave actually defended worlds near untouchable due to the sheer number of ships and then attacks to Goa'uld worlds would be staged from there.

[Tetsujin]

I still think one on one would be easier. Also my reference to data should pretty much solidify my viewpoint of not taking on screen events at face value at all times. If you are formulating a response to my post about data then I await it. Otherwise it kinda is just sitting there eating away at the foundation of suspending disbelief only.

[UniverseSizePlotHole]

Just quickly is Voy:Threshold canon in this discussion?

[Tetsujin]

Just quickly is Voy:Threshold canon in this discussion?

No its not. I believe even the writers ruled the episode was generally non canon not long after it was aired because is posed to many continuity issues. So warp 10 is a no go unfortunately.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Urgh, am full of curry and to a lesser extent, beer, so if my response is not so coherent as usual, don't be surprised! (Lamb Tikka Bhuna = YUM!)

Hope you've enjoyed it.

I don't disagree that we need to consider more details for such a scenario, but what I am proposing is, for the time being, we ignore the firepower debate, which is going nowhere, and just focus on the logistics and stragetic elements. We can set up any sort of scenario that we feel is appropriate to bring Goa'uld territory up close to Federation space. We can even suggest the idea that the Federation has gone unnoticed as a power within the SGverse, and that quite by accident, they reveal themselves to the System Lords.

I wouldn't mind agreeing with the whole level pegging fire power thing if we didn't have a clear example of a much older and much less advanced (than the more modern SF vessels) ST ship doing something that's not been witnessed in SG.
IMO such an ST ship would probably be level with a Ha'Tak, maybe behind because of the lack of shields, though the polarized hull does hold off (to a degree) weapons from the Klingons, Xindi, etc.
Too me it just seems ridiculous to assume the Star Trek side (if we're dealing with 24th century starfleet vessels) being that handicapped.
You say the discussion of firepower is going nowhere, in reality we've reached a pretty clear conclusion that Star Trek is far beyond Stargate, the only unknown is just how far ahead Star Trek is to Stargate?

BTW I'm all for discussing strategy, so long as we have a fair and realistic (to the canon of each show) base to work from.

In any event, if we consider the wider picture (namely that we also factor in the likes of the Dominion, Klingons, Borg etc) then we should also consider the impact of forces like the Asgard, Replicators and the Ori. What I'd rather do, for the meantime, is consider the Goa'uld v Federation situation. Lets assume that the System Lords have banded together (as they did against Anubis) to fight the Federation.

I wasn't necessarily saying we had to use the Borg or even the Dominion for that matter.
TBH I don't see the Dominion getting envolved unless the Goauld threatened their territory, unless the Goauld made themselves aware to the Borg I don't think the Borg would be doing much to the Goauld.
The Klingons are a major ally to the federation and the federation would call on them if they felt it necessary in the STverse.
I don't know how in a scenario where the federation (for some unknown reason) is living in the SG verse's Milky Way they would have gone unnoticed by the Goauld, unless we forget Earth as we know it (as the Tau'ri, since it's unlikely they'd battle a group such as the federation, because of a common enemy) existing in the SGverse and just had a future where Earth has developed unhindered in the usual ST manner, with the Vulcans and every regular Federation member, the other races like the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc don't exist.
Like I said before thousands of years ago the Goauld removed all Stargates.
The Ancients were already gone before the Goauld came about as a power in the galaxy.
I find it unlikely races such as the Asgard, Nox, Tollans would have fought the federation because they're peaceful groups, I would believe however that in this scenario (SF based in the SGverse) that the federation basically takes the place of Earth and does what Earth and the Jaffa does and tries to free the galaxy, only maybe territories aren't galaxy wide.

In such a scenario, even assuming that Goa'uld territory was only a matter of hours or days away by warp, hyperdrive would allow the Goa'uld to strike anywhere in Federation space in a matter of minutes. To avoid massive civilian casualties, the Federation would have to try and defend key locations, or try to defend everything- but either way, they cannot adaquately defend everything at once.

I think the federation has colonies that are only inhabited by a few hundred people, races that joined are probably comparable to Earth having billions of people on each of those worlds, probably with some having millions of people on them, I believe by the late 24th century there were over a hundred members in the federation (please correct me if I'm wrong here) so those worlds would probably be defended heavily, science outposts or research bases would be pretty open, any important strategic points would likely have shields and weapons, if not when the first attacks happen once a war breaks out.
The larger fleets of the federation would be covering the main member worlds and probably committing huge numbers to target Goauld ship production facilities.
With any shortcomings in terms of speed I think the first thing the federation is gonna do is steal something as low risk as possible like a cargo ship and reverse engineer it's hyperdrive, so the whole thing of speed isn't always gonna be an advantage for the Goauld, either that or transwarp will be researched further.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Just quickly is Voy:Threshold canon in this discussion?

It was never officially removed from canon as far as I'm aware, but it hasn't been discussed much.
I think one of the producers said he didn't consider it canon, TBH it doesn't bother me whether it is or isn't, ST does have advanced slip stream or transwarp, but the level of firepower on ST's side puts them far ahead of SG IMO.