Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I think it´s even, because all kind of ships have a flaw.
Stargate has better shields but Star-Trek better weapons, isn´t.

How do you figure that SG has the better shields?

Star Trek has races that can litterally level massive parts of a planet within a very short space of time.
Some torpedoes or energy weapons from the more powerful races destroy worlds farely easily.
Even races like the Goauld have only just been able to cave in buildings and not a lot more, maybe a city block at most judging by Continuum.

Goauld ships are a threat to 304s in large enough numbers so I don't see how it can be argued that Stargate would have the better shields.
If we wanted to go to extremes the Borg can litterally sit a massive structure close enough to a blue giant that it'd be struck by CMEs regularly.

ST also has far larger fleets.
The only real area ST lacks in, on a strategic level is speed of FTL (though it's clear if Earth can produce their own Hyperdrive engines then it's not gonna take long before a group with even late 21st level tech or knowledge can make their own, let alone a 24th century federation with in depth knowledge of the fabric of space), it wins on sub light propulsion, which given it's superior weaponry and ranges would mean in a ship vs ship conflict SG wouldn't stand a chance, unless some big naquadria enhanced nuke makes it to the target SG's not really gonna have much of a chance.
ST could quite easily shoot down such missiles before they get anywhere near ST shields.

SG energy weapons seem quite weak, barely doing anything to targets that ST makes short work of like planetary surfaces.

People like to argue that Ha Tak shields easily shrug off gigaton nukes, but this is flat out wrong because there's no evidence the nukes actually detonated.
It's also been argued that EMPs are present, so the nuke had to detonate, but again this is wrong because given that there's no atmosphere in space at the altitude the Ha'Taks were at there could be no emp (it requires oxygen to actually form an EMP, because an EMP is literraly a pressure wave that shifts the local magnetic field where the nuke goes off).

I can go on about different things, but these have been discussed at length on earlier pages of this thread.
If somebody has anything new to add I'm open to discussing things further.

[Override94]

How do you figure that SG has the better shields?

Star Trek has races that can litterally level massive parts of a planet within a very short space of time.
Some torpedoes or energy weapons from the more powerful races destroy worlds farely easily.
Even races like the Goauld have only just been able to cave in buildings and not a lot more, maybe a city block at most judging by Continuum.

Goauld ships are a threat to 304s in large enough numbers so I don't see how it can be argued that Stargate would have the better shields.
If we wanted to go to extremes the Borg can litterally sit a massive structure close enough to a blue giant that it'd be struck by CMEs regularly.

ST also has far larger fleets.
The only real area ST lacks in, on a strategic level is speed of FTL (though it's clear if Earth can produce their own Hyperdrive engines then it's not gonna take long before a group with even late 21st level tech or knowledge can make their own, let alone a 24th century federation with in depth knowledge of the fabric of space), it wins on sub light propulsion, which given it's superior weaponry and ranges would mean in a ship vs ship conflict SG wouldn't stand a chance, unless some big naquadria enhanced nuke makes it to the target SG's not really gonna have much of a chance.
ST could quite easily shoot down such missiles before they get anywhere near ST shields.

SG energy weapons seem quite weak, barely doing anything to targets that ST makes short work of like planetary surfaces.

People like to argue that Ha Tak shields easily shrug off gigaton nukes, but this is flat out wrong because there's no evidence the nukes actually detonated.
It's also been argued that EMPs are present, so the nuke had to detonate, but again this is wrong because given that there's no atmosphere in space at the altitude the Ha'Taks were at there could be no emp (it requires oxygen to actually form an EMP, because an EMP is literraly a pressure wave that shifts the local magnetic field where the nuke goes off).

I can go on about different things, but these have been discussed at length on earlier pages of this thread.
If somebody has anything new to add I'm open to discussing things further.

This is I see a fair comparison. We will use the stargate universe as a 4 different galaxies near the milky way galaxy. There needs to be three to cover the Ido(Asguard), Milkyway, Pegasus, Ori Galaxy(never nammed in show).

As far as technology in both series, we will use the latest cannon for comparison.

As well, this will be Federation and it's allies vs SG-Earth, SG-Earth does not have any current allies except for the Jafa nation, which is so vastly outgunned that it isn't worth comparison. This is essential because there is infighting between the two shows. The races of the two shows would not band together.

To start the Federation has superior shields, when SG ships are not using ZPMs. But when the SG ships are using ZPMs, the SG shields are far superior. Keeping in mind that the Asguard shields, when powered by a ZPM, were able to withstand a Coronal Mass Ejection.

Now let's talk about weapons. Star Trek photon torpedoes are very powerful but are not very effective against heavily shielded ships. In the Trek universe, photon torpedoes were used when shields of other ships were weak or down, which suggests that they are not effective if a ship has strong shields, because their kinetic energy is absorbed by shields. Star Trek phasers are generally used to weaken other ships shields. I would say that phasers are comparable to Asguard beam weapons, but are much less powerful. Asguard beam weapons are capable of destabilizing enemy ships shields with a few shots. I am not refering to weak shields either. In Stargate Atlantis, the beam weapons were used to take out replicator ships in a few hits, which were Alteran design.

Now lets look at ship size and maneuverability. Most Star Trek ships are far bigger than SG human ships, this is an upside and a downside for Star Trek at the same time, in one instance, There large size means that they can withstand more weapons fire, once shields have collapsed. The downside to this is that the SG earth ships can outmaneuver the large Star Trek vessels. However, when we look at defiant class Star Trek ships, the edge in maneuverability is given to Star Trek, hands down.

Now, we must look at FTL technology. For Star Trek, the fastest warp drive, which resides on Voyager, is capable of maintaining a speed of about 0.11 light years per hour. I reached this conclusion by using Warp 9 as the fastest sustainable speed by a ship in Star Trek. They can go faster than this, but only for short periods of time. This is calculated by the Michael Okuda's warp scale chart. In comparison, SG ships can go about 132.28 Light years per hour without a ZPM and 19444.44 light years per hour with one. This is calculated by the journey between Pegasus and Earth, it takes three weeks without a ZPM and 3 days with. Pegasus is 3.5 million light years away, so using math we get the stated numbers.

The conclusion:
a X-304 SG ship could take a large Star Trek ship, but a Diffident class vessel could take an X-304 SG ship. But Star Trek has a vast superiority, when it comes to fleet size. However, SG ships are much faster than Star Trek ships, so they could outrun them easily.

But here is why I would give the edge to Stargate: The SG humans could simply wait in there galaxy and build massive amounts of ships. We have seen that they are able to put out about a ship per year in complete secrecy. Imagine how many ships they could build with the full industrial capacity of Earth. Star Trek has no way of reaching them. When they have a sufficient fleet, they simply do a hit and run war. They jump in to a system, destroy a few ships and then jump into hyperspace. Now, The Federation could put their fleets in large enought groups to prevent this, but they would stretch themselves too thin and the SG ships could pick off world after world. They could do this by transporting nuclear weapons to the surface of the target planet.

This is just my opinion and I love both shows, but that is how I see it going down.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

This is I see a fair comparison. We will use the stargate universe as a 4 different galaxies near the milky way galaxy. There needs to be three to cover the Ido(Asguard), Milkyway, Pegasus, Ori Galaxy(never nammed in show).

As far as technology in both series, we will use the latest cannon for comparison.

As well, this will be Federation and it's allies vs SG-Earth, SG-Earth does not have any current allies except for the Jafa nation, which is so vastly outgunned that it isn't worth comparison. This is essential because there is infighting between the two shows. The races of the two shows would not band together.

To start the Federation has superior shields, when SG ships are not using ZPMs. But when the SG ships are using ZPMs, the SG shields are far superior. Keeping in mind that the Asguard shields, when powered by a ZPM, were able to withstand a Coronal Mass Ejection.

ST has far superior shields on all fronts, even a vessel such as the NX-01 could destroy a mountain larger than cheyenne with two streams of overload fire from a vessel from the 22nd century, this ship stands zero chance against even the next generation of Constitution class ships let alone vessels released a century or two later.
As far as the CME goes it cannot be technically classed as a CME, in both diologue and visuals we have a 304 able to deflect the ejection with it's shields, these are not thousands of kilometers accross, CMEs at their smallest are about 10,000 kilometers wide.
Enterprise D has sat smack bang on top of a star, within the corona, not raising it's shields until the threat of flares which engulf the ship's entire area (from the underside of the ship) to the point of not being able to fan out the material being shot out by the star.
The fact that the Enterprise D can sit there taking that shows it's shields are superior to even a ZPM powered 304.

If we want to take this example to a greater level, the Borg built at least one transwarp hub on top of a blue giant and sat it there well within reach of not only multiple solar flares, but full blown massive CMEs, which would be emitted repeatedly over the length of time the Hub was there.
The Borg supposedly have 6 of these Hubs, potentially they could all be placed on top of similar Stars.

Now let's talk about weapons. Star Trek photon torpedoes are very powerful but are not very effective against heavily shielded ships. In the Trek universe, photon torpedoes were used when shields of other ships were weak or down, which suggests that they are not effective if a ship has strong shields, because their kinetic energy is absorbed by shields. Star Trek phasers are generally used to weaken other ships shields. I would say that phasers are comparable to Asguard beam weapons, but are much less powerful. Asguard beam weapons are capable of destabilizing enemy ships shields with a few shots. I am not refering to weak shields either. In Stargate Atlantis, the beam weapons were used to take out replicator ships in a few hits, which were Alteran design.

Photons can wipe away entire cities and in some cases they have been stated to be capable of taking out planets.
Atlantis's shields are defeated within a little over a day by a weapon that has trouble cutting through an asteroid in under a minute, by comparison even older phase cannons on the NX-01 as I mentioned before can level a mountain almost on cotact.

Even the Enterprise D's phasers can drill over a kilometer deep into ground within a short few seconds of fire, this was from making the beam a tight, focused drill that was weakened to reduce collateral damage to the surrounding area.
If a warbird, bird of prey or whatever can handle multiple shots of that kind of fire then Stargate's not really comparable on the weapon front.

Hell even an Ori mothership can't destroy a mound of dirt and rocks far smaller than Cheyenne Mountain in less than three shots and before anyone says the mountain was shielded, if that shielding was deflecting fire then the energy would have to go somewhere, it would go into the surrounding area and this should glass everything, except maybe the stargate.
Ori ships can down a 304 with a ZPM powering the shields within 12 shots of their main cannon.
These examples show Star Trek has to be superior in the shields area, simply because their weapons are more capable in similar tasks such as destroying ground matter.

Now lets look at ship size and maneuverability. Most Star Trek ships are far bigger than SG human ships, this is an upside and a downside for Star Trek at the same time, in one instance, There large size means that they can withstand more weapons fire, once shields have collapsed. The downside to this is that the SG earth ships can outmaneuver the large Star Trek vessels. However, when we look at defiant class Star Trek ships, the edge in maneuverability is given to Star Trek, hands down.

ST ships are far more capable in accelerating away, they have far greater ranged fire power, their weapons can basically be shot from outside of SG weapons range, with little change the Stargate vessels can actually hit the ST ships.

Now, we must look at FTL technology. For Star Trek, the fastest warp drive, which resides on Voyager, is capable of maintaining a speed of about 0.11 light years per hour. I reached this conclusion by using Warp 9 as the fastest sustainable speed by a ship in Star Trek. They can go faster than this, but only for short periods of time. This is calculated by the Michael Okuda's warp scale chart. In comparison, SG ships can go about 132.28 Light years per hour without a ZPM and 19444.44 light years per hour with one. This is calculated by the journey between Pegasus and Earth, it takes three weeks without a ZPM and 3 days with. Pegasus is 3.5 million light years away, so using math we get the stated numbers.

As a straight speed vs speed thing you're right, except for say experimental slipstream drive from Hope and Fear and Timeless and Borg transwarp hubs.
The main thing here is that 21st century humans, with no help reverse engineered working hyperdrive tech and only lacked the ability to power it, which wouldn't be an issue with Star Trek races, especially the Federation, Borg, Voth, 8472, pretty much anyone that can build on the level of early ST history and up.
Even in Zefram Cochrane's time that version of Earth would be starting from a more advanced level of science than 1994 level Earth.
All ST races have to do is capture a shieldless Goauld cargo ship, scan hyperspace windows generated by fleeing ships and mimic the energy signatures generated by the technology and this SG advantage than gets lost.

The conclusion:
a X-304 SG ship could take a large Star Trek ship, but a Diffident class vessel could take an X-304 SG ship. But Star Trek has a vast superiority, when it comes to fleet size. However, SG ships are much faster than Star Trek ships, so they could outrun them easily.

ST ships would be on top of the sublight vessels faster than the SG ones would be capable of harming the ST ships, the minute any SG threat showed it's hand Star Trek races could hit them not long after they appear and SG ships would essentially be blind until they drop out of hyperspace.

But here is why I would give the edge to Stargate: The SG humans could simply wait in there galaxy and build massive amounts of ships.

This assumes ST races won't know a threat can come from outside of the galaxy, which is a cheap move in a debate.
It's a red herring and simply isn't going to happen in a realistic situation.
SG won't have sensors capable of scanning outside of their own galaxy, the best they have is Atlantis's sensors that can detect a Hive ship from within the galaxy it's currently in, this isn't gonna give SG an advantage.
Whatever races will have to venture into the ST galaxy first or vice versa and contact will have been made.

We have seen that they are able to put out about a ship per year in complete secrecy. Imagine how many ships they could build with the full industrial capacity of Earth.

Right now Earth in SG is only making a ship per year, ST has countless races that by the 24 century already have planetary scale production.
TBH it's unlikely the Tauri and Federation would fight anyway, because they fight for similar causes, they don't start blind, baseless conflicts because they like to.
SG Earth still has the capacity we've seen them to have, you can't invent something to try and prove your point, that would be fanon and can be done equally for both sides.
I could say the Federation has put Voyager level ablative armor, transphasic torpedoes and has fully working slipstream drive on the same level as the Timeless one on every ship in the fleet, but it would be an invention.
Saying the Federation understands more of the fabric of the universe than 1994 SG Earth is a fact.

Star Trek has no way of reaching them.

When SG or whoever has made contact the federation will know about hyperspace, they'll study it and if 21st century Earth can make working devices with limited ability, using 21st century science and engineering knowledge then a 22nd, 23rd or 24th century federation or similar level ST races can easily make working hyperdrives within a very short space of time.

When they have a sufficient fleet, they simply do a hit and run war. They jump in to a system, destroy a few ships and then jump into hyperspace. Now, The Federation could put their fleets in large enought groups to prevent this, but they would stretch themselves too thin and the SG ships could pick off world after world. They could do this by transporting nuclear weapons to the surface of the target planet.

This is just my opinion and I love both shows, but that is how I see it going down.

It's simply not going to work for the reasons I stated above.
The races in ST do have planetary shields they can use, they could prevent beaming.
ST has energy dampening devices, they could beam out nukes and if nukes were launched using missiles to a planet's surface shuttles could easily shoot them down, because they have faster sublight drives which can accelerate the shuttles to reach them fine.

[darth_timon]

There's a lot I can dispute here, but my daughter is asleep on me, it's 12:42 am and I feel exhausted!

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

There's a lot I can dispute here, but my daughter is asleep on me, it's 12:42 am and I feel exhausted!

You've tried before, your answers stretch to Ha'Taks which can supposedly withstand 1000 megaton nukes to their shields, even though there's no proof they detonated with such yields.
Your claim of 200 megaton energy pulses from Ha'Taks is entirely unsupported by any shread of evidence from the whole of Stargate, EMP's don't just happen in space and they are not a part of a nuke's energy, they are the result of an effect nukes have on the Earth's atmosphere.

So far throughout this entire discussion you've brought nothing forward to actually support Stargate having stronger ships than Star Trek.
If you fancy going back through this whole thing again I'll be posting in here, if not fair enough, same goes if Amann comes along for the ride.

[darth_timon]

Actually, I've shown a lot of evidence to support my claims, and Amann did as well, but I am too tired to go round and round again.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Actually, I've shown a lot of evidence to support my claims, and Amann did as well, but I am too tired to go round and round again.

Actually you haven't, both Amann and you have shown nothing, he in particular likes to make claims I'm trolling to distract from the fact that he's proven nothing and assumes that inventing lines of diologue and events out of thin air is perfectly fine within a debate, it's not.
His posts were actually deleted as a result of this by the Mods.

I've dealt with every point raised by you and Amann.

Your claim of Goauld Ha'Taks firing 200 megaton energy blasts is not supported by the evidence from There But For The Grace of God, blasts is an ambiguous term, the blast was not stated to come from an energy pulse.
Fact is in a ship battle if Apophis had possessed such fire power he'd have defeated even Anubis in straight up ship to ship fighting.
There's no supporting evidence that the energy pulses from Ha'Taks are dealing out 200 megaton level effects, unless you've got something new to add from canon these are the facts.
In fact every piece of visual evidence supports nothing more than maybe city block levels of destruction at most (which is being generous).
Diologue shows no mention of the energy weapons being outright stated to deliver such destruction.

You like to cling to two Ha'Taks each supposedly taking a 1000 megaton nuke to their shields, but there's no evidence that these nukes did anything beside impact them.
EMPs wouldn't actually be created in the vacume of space because they require atmosphere and the shifting of the magnetic field within the atmosphere when a nuke goes off, so something else is going on and given that nobody actually says the nukes detonated and the visuals merely support small, regular missile sized explosions and zero flash happened on screen and zero genuine nuclear like effects are mentioned within that situation you have no proof that what you've claimed in the passed is true, facts are the nukes did not detonate, end of story.


You've previously made claims about Survivors, but the fact is the weapon fired on the Enterprise's shields is composed of Antimatter particles in motion, which would do nothing to the energy shields of a ship, the only energy particles would have is kineticn energy or release of energy once matter comes into contact with the antimatter particles.

I could go on and on, but unless you can disprove what I'm saying here or bring up some farely long list which is greater than what's already be brought up about Star Trek ST has to be the stronger side in military might.

You can't dispute that SG Earth started out using 1994 level scientific knowledge and within about 6 years of study from that knowledge and engineering base they made their own working hyperdrives, only lacking reliable FTL flight because of a lack of the necessary power generation, which eventually got solved and now they can build hyperdrive capable ships all be slowly, but at their leisure.
Facts are the Federation or any already warp capable race from Star Trek already has a working knowledge of the fabric of space time.
Whilst an Intrepid class starship may have trouble pearcing into subspace for travel it has been shown to do so and within a few hours of modifying existing systems.

ST's Federation coming from a more advanced tech base should have zero problem accomplishing what teh Tauri did within a shorter time frame.
Given that even ships back in Archer's era had pretty sophisticated sensor tech and they'd have them on during a battle, once a Ha'Tak goes to flee they'll probably have a great deal of the data they need to begin working on a Drive or modding their systems to use hyperspace.

I know there's tonnes of things I could rehash here, but all of this is how things are relative to each show's universe.

[darth_timon]

I believe I have dealt with all your points before, and you believe you have dealt with mine, so continuing will lead us in circles.

So, new topic- who is more evil, Replicator Carter or the Borg Queen?

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I believe I have dealt with all your points before, and you believe you have dealt with mine, so continuing will lead us in circles.

Every point you've raised is unsupported by the evidence.
New points have been raised since the last time we had a lengthy chat on here which superseed the points you've raised.
Unless you are willing to concede those points you can't claim Stargate has stronger ships, you're just stating an opinion, not truly analyzing the evidence at hand.

So, new topic- who is more evil, Replicator Carter or the Borg Queen?

This would actually be off topic, it's got nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which is about Stargate ships vs Star Trek ships.

[darth_timon]

I've provided a lot of evidence, and dealt with the details on a number of occasions, and I'm tired of it. Insist all you want that I haven't done this, and declare yourself the winner of this debate if you must.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I've provided a lot of evidence, and dealt with the details on a number of occasions, and I'm tired of it. Insist all you want that I haven't done this, and declare yourself the winner of this debate if you must.

You've misrepresened, cherry picked and twisted evidence to suite your beliefs.
I don't care about winning, I care about what the evidence shows, this has always been the case.

[darth_timon]

I haven't cherrypicked, or misrepresented, or twisted anything, and I don't appreciate the accusation.

I have always looked at what the evidence shows, and drawn my conclusions accordingly.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Examples:

Survivors has the Alien ship that delivers jacketed streams of Antimatter particles, you choose to focus on the 200 gigawatts of particle energy figure, even though what form of energy that is isn't stated, the only direct form of energy which is apparent is that the particles are in motion, so kinetic energy.
The Antimatter particles are actually jacketed inside of something.
Purely smashing into the shields of the ship would do nothing, unless the shields are made of matter particles, but then there would have to be an energy release made by the annihiliation of the AM/M reaction when the AM particles hit the matter.

You've previously drawn a conclusion based on nothing but the 200 gigawatt figure, even though the diologue includes many other factors which would effect the power of the weapon.
These factors have been brought up numerous times, but you've not commented on them at all, instead you've chosen to focus on nothing but the 200 gigawatt figure.


You've made out like the NX-01 Enterprise has a hard time overloading it's weapons to level the mountain in Silent Enemy, you've previously stated that the ship's own power source wasn't responsible for powering the weapons to the overload level.

You've twisted the facts surrounding The Die Is Cast, ignoring that what we see is on the dark side of the planet.
You've misrepresented the visible effects of ST weapons when it comes to this episode on numerous occasions.

You've drawn the conclusion that the Enterprise D's torpedoes must be weak, even though we know nothing of the composition of the asteroid in The Pegasus.

These are the initial examples that come to my mind.

[darth_timon]

Counter-examples-

You completely assume that, despite clear dialogue, the firepower in 'Survivors' should be assumed to be considerably enhanced. The shields recorded the energy in a manner that was clear, as 200GW, and as particle energy. Previous, lower yield shots didn't do any damage- when the power of the weapon was increased, there was damage. Changing the yield of the particle weapon had a direct impact on the effect upon the Enterprise

I was wrong about the NX-01, but you assume this is deliberate. Nevertheless, if you think sustained overloads are healthy, you need to think again.

I have not misrepresented 'The Die is Cast'. You insist, despite visual evidence to the contrary, that the episode is indicative of high energy events. Regardless of whether the shots are raining down upon the dark side of the planet, such huge releases of energy will produce easily visible effects- huge flashes of light, massive, uprising mushroom clouds, and since they were in the process of destroying the crust, and vaporising millions of tons of matter, the surface should also have glowed red hot, and again, been easily visible from space.

I have explained this on many occasions.

Regarding 'Pegasus', the asteroid more easily fits the description of a rocky asteroid that is poorly consolidated, as evidenced by the fact that it has hollow caverns large enough for a 400m ship to fly into and maneuver in. If you wish to prove the idea that the asteroid has a high iron content, or that it was denser than it appeared, then by all means, prove it. So far, you haven't.

That's not all. You insist Ha'taks must have used weapons other than staff cannons to achieve the results of Netu. The onus is therefore on you to explain why, if they possess such powerful weapons, do they not use them in other circumstances where they would prove useful (such as when the Goa'uld are fighting Replicator controlled ships in 'Reckoning', for example)? Plus, why are these weapons not mentioned, or described, in any way shape or form? It makes far more sense for them to be able to vary the yield of their staff weapons, rather than needing a completely different set of weapons.

You can also provide a satisfactory explanation for why the Borg were shooting at Cochrane's warp ship if they didn't plan to destroy it. To scare the populace? They would have chosen a more populated target if that was their plan. They went back in time to a specific date and attacked a specific location, the destruction of which would have drastically altered Federation history, leaving them far more vulnerable.

You can also provide a satisfactory explanation for what happened in 'Changing Face of Evil'. If there was a shield, it was clearly knocked down in order for the Breen weapons to inflict the damage we saw. Why would they choose to not use full power weapons when they have the chance to take out the HQ of their enemy?

Those are just some of the examples that come to my mind.

[darth_timon]

How about we also consider how your own calculations from Beach Head grant Ha'taks considerably more firepower than you often insist they have from 'Homecoming'? And how about you explain how, according to your own admission, they have to be capable of absorbing a lot more energy (as per 'Enemies') than you were once previously willing to admit?