Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[darth_timon]

Ok, I haven't posted in a while (mainly due to feeling exhausted- my little girl is amazing but exhausting!), but I have been slowly working on some material for a website, and one of the things I did was to compile a list of all the evidence that supports weak firepower and defences for the Federation:

ENT Silent Enemy: An overloaded phaser cannon destroys a mountain, and one of the characters states this was a 200 megaton feat.

TOS Doomsday Machine: A Constitution class ship (then being the top of the range for the Federation) sets her engines to overload to destroy a machine that is consuming entire worlds. The explosion is the equivalent of 100MT.

Straight away, we have an inconsistency. ENT is set well before the events of TOS, yet the NX-01 class has weapons more powerful than the overloaded engines of a more modern ship? How can this be?

One possible answer is that the 200MT figure does not represent the typical firepower of the NX-01– the crew had deliberately pushed phasers outside their usual operating parameters, and not without risk of damaging the ship’s systems. They were fortunate not to do any serious damage on this occasion, but repeatedly over-clocking something can easily cause degradation in the long-term, and we don’t know how much power they had to pull from propulsion, or sensors, or other systems, in order to boost phaser power.

Another possibility is that the Federation traded powerful weapons in favour of a ‘cheaper’ chain reaction system, that allowed extra power to be funnelled to warp drive, or other systems. Based on subsequent visual evidence, this is a possibility, but I will come to that later.

TOS Tomorrow is Yesterday: The Enterprise is potentially at risk from the nuclear warheads of 1960s era earth. It’s worth noting that in the 60s the most powerful nuclear weapons we had were in the megaton range at the highest.

Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country: A torpedo from a Klingon Bird of Prey punches right into the Enterprise’s hull but despite claims of multi-megaton firepower the Enterprise survives, and not only survives, but is still combat-capable.

The popular objection to this is that internal bulkheads would negate the destructive power of a torpedo– but in the TNG episode Genesis a devolved Worf is able to break down doors with his body. We also have doors being blown apart by phasers in Nemesis, and hand-phasers have never demonstrated anything like megaton-level firepower, so the internal resistance to explosions from a ship’s structure is not great.

TNG Survivors: The Enterprise comes under attack from a Husnock ship (later revealed to be a creation by a powerful alien being). The ship hit the Enterprise with a 600 gigawatt burst that brought down her shields. Some of the Star Trek side’s supporters argue that as the ship was a fake, the effects cannot be quantified, but the sensors and equipment of the Enterprise reported real information, and none of the bridge crew seemed surprised that such firepower could take out their shields, only that the Husnock ship could produce it.

TNG Pegasus: The Enterprise would have required most of her photo torpedoes to destroy a poorly-consolidated asteroid which had a hollow cavern large enough for the ship to manoeuvre in. A common objection is that the asteroid had a magnetic field powerful enough to interfere with a shuttle’s navigational systems, but a shuttle is hardly going to have powerful systems, and if the asteroid’s metallic content were significant enough to have a strong magnetic field the asteroid would have been pulled into a spherical shape.

DS9 The Die is Cast: This is the most controversial of examples. A combined fleet of Cardassian and Romulan ships attack the Founder’s home world with the intention of wiping them out. They open fire on the surface and after the first volley report that ‘30%’ of the planet’s surface has been destroyed. However, in the shots of the planet we see, we do not see any of the associated effects from such huge releases of energy. The only reason we would not see any such effects (such as material being ejected into the atmosphere, fireballs and a visibly glowing surface) would be if some kind of chain reaction was taking place instead.

Star Trek First Contact: There is a scene in this film where a Borg vessel is firing upon earth’s surface, at a missile complex where earth’s first warp-capable ship is being built. The successful warp flight of this vessel leads to first contact between humans and Vulcans, and is the first building block of the Federation. There can only be one reason why the Borg would attack this complex and this would be to change history by stopping first contact. Despite several shots from the Borg vessel the damage to the warp ship is repairable. It is worth noting that the Borg are considered a formidable foe by the Federation.

DS9 Tears of the Prophets: There are instances here where Klingon ships are destroyed or crippled by collisions with Jem’Hadar ships. In all cases, there is no visible interaction between the shields of the colliding vessels and the collisions are not slowed down at all. A common Trek fan objection to this is that the ships are meant to be travelling at relativistic speeds and this is not shown on screen for dramatic reasons, but if we apply suspension of disbelief, we must go with what we see, and the speed of the ships relative to one another is not significant.

DS9 Changing Face of Evil: At the start of this episode we see a scene from San Francisco, specifically Starfleet Headquarters. Headquarters and the surrounding structures are damaged, and the damage is comparable to what we would see from a World War II era bombardment. It is stated that the Breen have attacked earth.

There are different possibilities here, but the most likely situation is that the Breen ships that attacked were responsible for the damage seen in the episode, and these ships were able to either A: penetrate the defences of the city and weapons fire impacted the surface or B: they never met with any kind of shielding to begin with. The displayed firepower of the Breen (whose ships are similar in performance to the Federation’s) is notably poor.

One objection is the possibility that the damage was actually caused by Breen troops who landed on the surface, but why (when given the opportunity) would the Breen pass up a golden chance to destroy Starfleet HQ and cripple the Federation military’s command structure? Also, landing troops allows for the possibility of capture, and finally, it was not mentioned in the episode, so it is pure speculation.

Objectors might note that I have not addressed episodes such as Relics, in which the Enterprise, with weakened shields, is in close proximity to a star for quite a while. However, the star in the episode in question is not as large or luminous as our own sun, and whilst it is mentioned that the star is undergoing an increase in activity, there is no visual evidence of flares directly impacting the ship. In fact, given the presence of liquid water on the inside surface of the Dyson sphere, the star could not have been that active.

Conclusions: Federation firepower is not significant– we have nuclear weapons today that could pose a threat to Federation vessels.

[qingbest]

OK, thanks.



If you're in China and they're blocking you from coming on this Forum then you're breaking the laws of the country actually doing that, I know their censorship is quite tight.
It's not my fault you can't use a link that everyone else can use, I'm not gonna alter things just because you're doing something you're not supposed to be doing in your current home country.

The visual in this episode, where Destiny clearly travels on the outer edge of the Star proves this example's false, it's above the photosphere and doesn't travel into it.
To be inside the star it would need to delve into this part and penetrate this part, going deeper inside, it travels above and at it's closest skims the top of the Photosphere.

Here Rush says Destiny passed very near a Solar Flare, it's in your quote and flares are expulsions of loads of material from the star, outward, they don't happen under the photosphere.
The visuals don't agree with you and diologue doesn't contradict what the visuals show to be true here.


You accuse me of not watching something, when you're clearly missinterpretting the evidence, people can easily see for themselves what Destiny is and isn't doing when they see these episodes.
To be inside the Star or travel through it in the way I think you're trying to say you think it does it would need to go past the Photosphere, straight through the core of the star, in one side and out the other, it never does this.

Yes I am breaking the law and I don't care about it. Now IF I am reading the ancient correctly then yes they did just fly through the corona from the episode Light. Excuse me if I am wrong but we see the Destiny fly into the star and in the corona we see that happening and in Twin Destinies the solar flare happened when they were exiting the star in question.
Now here is a theory on the Stargate by Dr Micio Maku :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWHC081B_Do BTW I have cut you post short for the amount of writing
Now we see the same scientist mention hyperspace in an interview with Fox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-vG7...eature=related
Even Dr Michio Maku thinks Data is a retarded cockroach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW8rg...eature=related
if you don't believe me than watch the three vids

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Ok, I haven't posted in a while (mainly due to feeling exhausted- my little girl is amazing but exhausting!), but I have been slowly working on some material for a website, and one of the things I did was to compile a list of all the evidence that supports weak firepower and defences for the Federation:

ENT Silent Enemy: An overloaded phaser cannon destroys a mountain, and one of the characters states this was a 200 megaton feat.

You've already made a false claim here Darth, no character in this episode claims the Phase Cannon shots the NX-01 fires are 200 Megaton, they state that they destroy a mountain the size of mount mckinley.
I think you've assumed that Stargate is right when they say Goauld weapons were on the 200 megaton level, in the alternate reality episode of season 1 SG1, that isn't proven to be an accurate source of info, so clinging to it as a correct figure is wrong.

TOS Doomsday Machine: A Constitution class ship (then being the top of the range for the Federation) sets her engines to overload to destroy a machine that is consuming entire worlds. The explosion is the equivalent of 100MT.

Straight away, we have an inconsistency. ENT is set well before the events of TOS, yet the NX-01 class has weapons more powerful than the overloaded engines of a more modern ship? How can this be?

We have no inconsistency because no one says the NX-01 is firing 200 megaton shots, they're firing shots powerful enough to destroy a mountain the size of mount mckinley, the SG1 episode isn't proven to be accurate in 200 megatons being necessary to destroy such a mountain.

One possible answer is that the 200MT figure does not represent the typical firepower of the NX-01– the crew had deliberately pushed phasers outside their usual operating parameters, and not without risk of damaging the ship’s systems. They were fortunate not to do any serious damage on this occasion, but repeatedly over-clocking something can easily cause degradation in the long-term, and we don’t know how much power they had to pull from propulsion, or sensors, or other systems, in order to boost phaser power.

The phase cannons weren't destroyed, in fact the actual weapon was never stated to be harmed by the ordeal, it was only a few systems that caused problems, these could be upgraded to remove the fault, with future advancements or a few simple modified systems.
There's no indication that the systems couldn't be opperated at a slightly lower level and still produce impressive firepower, there's also no indication that the operational maximum, without overload would be so far below the overload level that it would have no effect against things like Ha'Taks which are easily harmed by mere building destruct level firepower, or completely wiped out by firepower weaker than the NX-01's level.

Another possibility is that the Federation traded powerful weapons in favour of a ‘cheaper’ chain reaction system, that allowed extra power to be funnelled to warp drive, or other systems. Based on subsequent visual evidence, this is a possibility, but I will come to that later.

You keep using this chain reaction thing, but you never state what you mean by it.
No one in star trek ever states that phasers operate using some kind of chain reaction, so you're inventing fanon, you have no canon proof of this so please drop this term because it means nothing without evidence of it's existence.
The fact is phase cannons did destroy that mountain and they didn't blow in the process of doing so, later phasers destroyed 1600 meters deep worth of ground material with ease, this is canon to TNG, it's both visual and diologue evidence, so suits both kinds of evidence.

TOS Tomorrow is Yesterday: The Enterprise is potentially at risk from the nuclear warheads of 1960s era earth. It’s worth noting that in the 60s the most powerful nuclear weapons we had were in the megaton range at the highest.

The Enterprise's deflectors weren't operational until after the pilot was beamed aboard the ship, so any nuke fired would have hit the hull and not the shields.

Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country: A torpedo from a Klingon Bird of Prey punches right into the Enterprise’s hull but despite claims of multi-megaton firepower the Enterprise survives, and not only survives, but is still combat-capable.

The popular objection to this is that internal bulkheads would negate the destructive power of a torpedo– but in the TNG episode Genesis a devolved Worf is able to break down doors with his body. We also have doors being blown apart by phasers in Nemesis, and hand-phasers have never demonstrated anything like megaton-level firepower, so the internal resistance to explosions from a ship’s structure is not great.

What about the actual walls of the internal corridors of the ship?
Doors may not be that strong, but when do you see phaser fire or characters breaking through the walls of the ship's halls?

TNG Survivors: The Enterprise comes under attack from a Husnock ship (later revealed to be a creation by a powerful alien being). The ship hit the Enterprise with a 600 gigawatt burst that brought down her shields. Some of the Star Trek side’s supporters argue that as the ship was a fake, the effects cannot be quantified, but the sensors and equipment of the Enterprise reported real information, and none of the bridge crew seemed surprised that such firepower could take out their shields, only that the Husnock ship could produce it.

This episode has been dealt with many times.
600 gigawatts would result in a very low yield figure of energy, yet ST ships deliver many times this in firepower throughout the entirety of ST history.
It makes no sense that such low firepower would defeat the Enterprise's shields, so the only answer to this weapon being able to penetrate or disable the ship's shields is that it wasn't a conventional weapon, it used something besides direct power to do what it did and since it didn't do any damage to the actual hull of the ship it's not powerful enough to destroy the ship.

TNG Pegasus: The Enterprise would have required most of her photo torpedoes to destroy a poorly-consolidated asteroid which had a hollow cavern large enough for the ship to manoeuvre in. A common objection is that the asteroid had a magnetic field powerful enough to interfere with a shuttle’s navigational systems, but a shuttle is hardly going to have powerful systems, and if the asteroid’s metallic content were significant enough to have a strong magnetic field the asteroid would have been pulled into a spherical shape.

Torpedoes are not low yield weapons, they have been proven to be more powerful than Phasers, which can drill 1600 meter holes in the ground within a few seconds and the precursor to those phasers can take out a mountain larger than Cheyenne, so the only possibility is that the Asteroid's composed of something strong enough to resist anything but a full complement of torpedoes from the Enterprise D.
BTW did it not occur to you that this Asteroid could have been recently combined from a series of other, smaller metallic asteroids, which will later crunch down into a spherical shape?

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

DS9 The Die is Cast: This is the most controversial of examples. A combined fleet of Cardassian and Romulan ships attack the Founder’s home world with the intention of wiping them out. They open fire on the surface and after the first volley report that ‘30%’ of the planet’s surface has been destroyed. However, in the shots of the planet we see, we do not see any of the associated effects from such huge releases of energy. The only reason we would not see any such effects (such as material being ejected into the atmosphere, fireballs and a visibly glowing surface) would be if some kind of chain reaction was taking place instead.

We're not talking about Asteroids impacting the surface of a planet, we're talking about weapons that have never been shown to produce the kinds of effects you claim necessary here.
We never see a clear, close up shot of the surface, we only see distance shots of the planet, from the dark side of the Founder's planet.
Your claims that the crew members of all ships must be wrong is obsurd, we're talking about many crew members onboard all of the Cardassian/Romulan fleet, they couldn't all be wrong, they reported 30% of the planet's crust being destroyed on opening volley, this would only be possible with higher than gigaton level firepower, which would be consistent with what we've seen from the show, Federation starships and other race's vessels take this kind of firepower on a daily basis, but you obviously don't like this fact so you poke holes in this evidence because it isn't represented in a way you would expect it to be.
The Founder's homeworld is not like Earth, it is a rouge planet and thus would be effected very differently to how anything terrestrial would.
We see fast moving shockwaves accross large portions of the planet's surface, this could only be possible with high powered weapons.

Star Trek First Contact: There is a scene in this film where a Borg vessel is firing upon earth’s surface, at a missile complex where earth’s first warp-capable ship is being built. The successful warp flight of this vessel leads to first contact between humans and Vulcans, and is the first building block of the Federation. There can only be one reason why the Borg would attack this complex and this would be to change history by stopping first contact. Despite several shots from the Borg vessel the damage to the warp ship is repairable. It is worth noting that the Borg are considered a formidable foe by the Federation.

Here your reasoning is very flawed.
Just by dropping resonably sized chunks of matter through the surface and allowing it to smash into the surface of the planet the Borg could do more damage than those shots did, obviously their initial intention wasn't to instantly destroy everything in sight, they'd want all the drones they could get.
You have no evidence that the Borg's intention was to destroy the missile silo, only other character's assumptions.
If the Borg wanted to assimilate the Alpha quadrant then there'd be no better way to do it (without the entire Borg fleet going back in time) than by using the test flight to draw the attention of the Vulcans, then assimilate them when they got there, they then send Drones on the Vulcan shuttle to other nearby worlds and spread themselves throughout the galaxy much faster and remove their enemy's when they are less advanced.
Without the sphere they'd have to build a fleet of ships on Earth and wouldn't have any defenses against alien races until they'd built them up, this would be a much better strategy than just sending the phoenix to the first warp capable world and risk retalliation before they've gained any advantage.

DS9 Tears of the Prophets: There are instances here where Klingon ships are destroyed or crippled by collisions with Jem’Hadar ships. In all cases, there is no visible interaction between the shields of the colliding vessels and the collisions are not slowed down at all. A common Trek fan objection to this is that the ships are meant to be travelling at relativistic speeds and this is not shown on screen for dramatic reasons, but if we apply suspension of disbelief, we must go with what we see, and the speed of the ships relative to one another is not significant.

These ships were battling the Klingons, we often hear it said that ships are traveling at full impulse, this can only be relativistic speed.
Enterprise D has been shown to travel at many kilometers per hour, when even full maneuvering thrusters are used, the Enterprise in the motion picture was stated to traverse a large portion of our solar system within minutes using full impulse, which would be relativistic speed and these two incedents were long before this episode of DS9.
If these ships are fighting klingon ships and aim to inflict damage or evade it why would they travel at a low speed?
If we suspend disbelief (which means to ignore what is illogical and has nothing to do with your method of evidence finding), then it would seem wrong for these ships to be less advanced than their 22nd or whatever century Federation counterpart, well it is just plain wrong to believe these ships were not traveling at high near c velocities.

DS9 Changing Face of Evil: At the start of this episode we see a scene from San Francisco, specifically Starfleet Headquarters. Headquarters and the surrounding structures are damaged, and the damage is comparable to what we would see from a World War II era bombardment. It is stated that the Breen have attacked earth.

There are different possibilities here, but the most likely situation is that the Breen ships that attacked were responsible for the damage seen in the episode, and these ships were able to either A: penetrate the defences of the city and weapons fire impacted the surface or B: they never met with any kind of shielding to begin with. The displayed firepower of the Breen (whose ships are similar in performance to the Federation’s) is notably poor.

One objection is the possibility that the damage was actually caused by Breen troops who landed on the surface, but why (when given the opportunity) would the Breen pass up a golden chance to destroy Starfleet HQ and cripple the Federation military’s command structure? Also, landing troops allows for the possibility of capture, and finally, it was not mentioned in the episode, so it is pure speculation.

There's no evidence the Breen fleet actually made it to Earth, there's no evidence to actually reference from this evidence besides parts of buildings being damaged, this can be done with phaser fire and small explosives, ship weapons would do far more damage as is proven by the Enterprise D being able to drill holes 1600 meters deep in the ground and an NX-01's phase cannons being able to level a mountain.
The HQ's damage level is similar to that of the Cardassian city in What You Leave Behind so the only conlusion we can draw is that some Breen troops made it to Federation HQ and managed to inflict some damage after abandoning their destroyed ships, which didn't manage to get a shot off at Earth.

Objectors might note that I have not addressed episodes such as Relics, in which the Enterprise, with weakened shields, is in close proximity to a star for quite a while. However, the star in the episode in question is not as large or luminous as our own sun, and whilst it is mentioned that the star is undergoing an increase in activity, there is no visual evidence of flares directly impacting the ship. In fact, given the presence of liquid water on the inside surface of the Dyson sphere, the star could not have been that active.

The inside of the sphere must have had a shied or artificial atmosphere protecting the surface, otherwise the people who originally lived there would be unable to survive, even you must have to admit the possibility of someone living without an atmosphere of any kind, when there appears to be greenary on the surface of the sphere is pretty ludicrous.

Conclusions: Federation firepower is not significant– we have nuclear weapons today that could pose a threat to Federation vessels.

I notice how you didn't actually bring up any proof that SG has anything better than ST in terms of firepower.
What about the fact that visually the supposed thousand megaton nukes fired at Apophis's ships explode like small chemical level explosives?
The fact that the Goauld never actually fire anything but building destruct level shots at a target that definitely needs to be taken out like Anubis's mothership in Homeworld?
Ships in SG get taken down with that level of firepower, their shields get penetrated within minutes of this kind of firepower, which wouldn't even be kiloton if we go by the important (in your opinion) visual information.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Yes I am breaking the law and I don't care about it.

Well I'm not gonna change parts of my posts to suit you, just because you feel the need to post on a forum that's being blocked by your home country.

Now IF I am reading the ancient correctly then yes they did just fly through the corona from the episode Light. Excuse me if I am wrong but we see the Destiny fly into the star and in the corona we see that happening and in Twin Destinies the solar flare happened when they were exiting the star in question.

SGSargon should note that in Light Rush says we've just passed the Corona, right after we see the visuals of Destiny flying into a cloud of plasma and this is right after Eli says we're in the star, this can only mean they were in the Photosphere as it's the part directly after that part of the star.

Now here is a theory on the Stargate by Dr Micio Maku :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWHC081B_Do BTW I have cut you post short for the amount of writing

BTW the Physicist's name is Michio Kaku and this stargate is completely different to any stargate shown on the show.
Here he talks about making a copy of a person on the other side, so it's not actually you traveling through a wormhole.
Stargate the show hasn't talked about anything like this, so the show itself hasn't actually educated people about something new, Star Trek mentioned wormholes long before SG did, with the first motion picture movie.

Now we see the same scientist mention hyperspace in an interview with Fox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-vG7...eature=related

The actual term hyperspace means other dimensions, it's never referred to as a method of travel like another plane of the universe where the maximum speed possible is much greater, or an area of space where you travel above real space and thus traverse greater distances for every unit of space.

Even Dr Michio Maku thinks Data is a retarded cockroach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW8rg...eature=related
if you don't believe me than watch the three vids

No Michio actually says that our most advanced computers and robots have the intelligence of a retarded cockroach and not the level of the Terminator, we then see pictures of other advanced film forms of AI, which includes Data, Johnny 5 (from the excellent Short Circuit 1 & 2) and other forms of AI from various movies and sci-fi shows.

I'm astonished how you've misrepresented this particular example you've tried to give.
This was just plain wrong!

[thekillman]

, it's never referred to as a method of travel like another plane of the universe where the maximum speed possible is much greater

according to Jackson in his instruction movies, it IS in stargate.


i can't believe this debate is still running when it's pointless, as SG uses far more roboteching in their energy weapons than ST. there's a very real chance that the Daedalus and the Enterprise can shoot eachother with their most powerful plasma weapons and never do a bit of damage. well aside from a few scorch marks.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

according to Jackson in his instruction movies, it IS in stargate.


i can't believe this debate is still running when it's pointless, as SG uses far more roboteching in their energy weapons than ST. there's a very real chance that the Daedalus and the Enterprise can shoot eachother with their most powerful plasma weapons and never do a bit of damage. well aside from a few scorch marks.

Please look at the context of what I wrote, I was talking about qingbest's youtube link, Michio Kaku never talks about hyperspace like that.

The debate's pointless in your opinion, others here still feel like discussing it, so it has a point to them.

[qingbest]

We're not talking about Asteroids impacting the surface of a planet, we're talking about weapons that have never been shown to produce the kinds of effects you claim necessary here.
We never see a clear, close up shot of the surface, we only see distance shots of the planet, from the dark side of the Founder's planet.
Your claims that the crew members of all ships must be wrong is obsurd, we're talking about many crew members onboard all of the Cardassian/Romulan fleet, they couldn't all be wrong, they reported 30% of the planet's crust being destroyed on opening volley, this would only be possible with higher than gigaton level firepower, which would be consistent with what we've seen from the show, Federation starships and other race's vessels take this kind of firepower on a daily basis, but you obviously don't like this fact so you poke holes in this evidence because it isn't represented in a way you would expect it to be.
The Founder's homeworld is not like Earth, it is a rouge planet and thus would be effected very differently to how anything terrestrial would.
We see fast moving shockwaves accross large portions of the planet's surface, this could only be possible with high powered weapons.

I have to agree with darth as I have to be self educated we should see magma bubbling up in the planet atmosphere even if its dark and we only see dust or whatever you want to call in the atmosphere, the core going critical from the blasts, etc unless you haven't seen the movie The Core. However the damage is only proportional to where it was directed land mass crust is not that thick and we don't know what is the magma pressure is there are too many unknown specifications of the planet in question. BTW I have seen this episode so I can comment on the first paragraphs.

[qingbest]

SGSargon should note that in Light Rush says we've just passed the Corona, right after we see the visuals of Destiny flying into a cloud of plasma and this is right after Eli says we're in the star, this can only mean they were in the Photosphere as it's the part directly after that part of the star.

We Can't be sure on that. Now on to reasoning If we are talking about a Class O star there is very little elements that the destiny can use as fuel and therefore have to go lower where the density and other elements are more of an abundance. Now instead on typing this all out I am going to place a quote from another forum that someone agrees with me.

A couple of seconds later Eli says: "OK within the star", before that Eli was struggling to keep the ship intact. Rush says that shields are holding. "Activating collectors".
But we see no image of outside, we do not see the collectors being deployed. That's because they already entered the start and were going deeper.
"We're going in too steep" Eli says. They were going in! This means they were plummeting! Why would he say that if they were just skimming? They needed to go in, but not too steep, otherwise they would of gotten too close to the very core of the star, increasing the time it would take the ship to get out of the star, putting the ship to an unnecessary risk.
Also blue stars, especially supergiants (although this star was class 0 which would make it hypergiant) consume their hydrogen very vast, they only live a few million years, so the star would consume it's hidrogen and light elements very very fast. Given that the photosphere has a very small density, 2×10?4 kg/m3, and since there is very little hydrogen left, it would make sense to go deeper where the density is higher and therefor more hydrogen.

I'll add a quote of wikipedia soon enough

Class O stars are very hot and extremely luminous, being bluish in color; in fact, most of their output is in the ultraviolet range. These are the rarest of all main-sequence stars. About 1 in 3,000,000 of the main-sequence stars in the solar neighborhood are Class O stars.[nb 1][12] Some of the most massive stars lie within this spectral class. Type-O stars are so hot as to have complicated surroundings which make measurement of their spectra difficult.


Spectrum of an O5 V star
O-stars shine with a power over a million times our Sun's output. These stars have dominant lines of absorption and sometimes emission for He II lines, prominent ionized (Si IV, O III, N III, and C III) and neutral helium lines, strengthening from O5 to O9, and prominent hydrogen Balmer lines, although not as strong as in later types. Because they are so massive, class O stars have very hot cores, thus burn through their hydrogen fuel very quickly, and so are the first stars to leave the main sequence. Recent observations by the Spitzer Space Telescope indicate that planetary formation does not occur around other stars in the vicinity of an O class star due to the photoevaporation effect.[29]
When the MKK classification scheme was first described in 1943, the only subtypes of class O used were O5 to O9.5.[30] The MKK scheme was extended to O4 in 1978,[31] and new classification schemes have subsequently been introduced which add types O2, O3 and O3.5. O3 stars are the hottest currently known stars of conventional structure.

[Gormagon]

has anyone forgotten about the Q, I think they would win the battle easily but if its just ships, I think everywhere it would be evenly matched. The question to be asked how powerful the weapons of stargate are to the weapons of star trek are.

As far as the weaponry, here are some examples...
Standard photon torpedo- 67.5 megatons. Goa'uld naquadah bomb-Multi-gigaton capable, meaning 1000+ megatons. Goa'uld blast cannon-200 megatons. Galaxy class phaser bank-4166 terawatts, roughly 1 megaton. I can get more if required.

An Intrepid class (Voyager) ships shields are roughly capable of absorbing 688,500 terajoules, or, about 168 megatons. Galaxy class,(Enterprise D, T.N.G) 2,700,000 terajoules, 659 megatons. Sovereign class,(Enterprise E, T.N.G movies) 4,563,000 terajoules, 1113 megatons. That is never minding modulation advantages, but still. The Goa'uld, who have some of the weakest shields in Stargate, have multi-gigaton force shields, and that is just on standard Ha'tak class vessels.

Then you got the Asgard, Alterans, Ori, Hebridan, e.c.t.

Warp 9.9, I think it is 3053x C.(C = speed of light in vacuum) Goa'uld Hyper drive, 32,000x C. Asgard hyper drive, 26 million-28million x C.

I love Star Trek, but Stargate ships own Star Trek ships.

[darth_timon]

You've already made a false claim here Darth, no character in this episode claims the Phase Cannon shots the NX-01 fires are 200 Megaton, they state that they destroy a mountain the size of mount mckinley.
I think you've assumed that Stargate is right when they say Goauld weapons were on the 200 megaton level, in the alternate reality episode of season 1 SG1, that isn't proven to be an accurate source of info, so clinging to it as a correct figure is wrong.

I think you're being a tad obtuse now. Fact is, you've been claiming high megaton firepower for that scene for ages, but a ship a generation later wasn't capable of producing as much power with it's engines on overload, let alone with weapons. We have clear dialogue from 'The Doomsday Machine' that places a Constitution-class's engine overload at 100MT. It therefore doesn't matter if the NX-01 produced 50MT, 200MT or 500MT with her phasers- something obviously changed between the NX-01-era and the Constitution-class era that downgraded their power significantly.

The phase cannons weren't destroyed, in fact the actual weapon was never stated to be harmed by the ordeal, it was only a few systems that caused problems, these could be upgraded to remove the fault, with future advancements or a few simple modified systems.
There's no indication that the systems couldn't be opperated at a slightly lower level and still produce impressive firepower

There's no indication that they could either. We never see firepower like that on display again, in any era of Star Trek. It's clear overloading has limitations.

You keep using this chain reaction thing, but you never state what you mean by it.
No one in star trek ever states that phasers operate using some kind of chain reaction, so you're inventing fanon, you have no canon proof of this so please drop this term because it means nothing without evidence of it's existence.
The fact is phase cannons did destroy that mountain and they didn't blow in the process of doing so, later phasers destroyed 1600 meters deep worth of ground material with ease, this is canon to TNG, it's both visual and diologue evidence, so suits both kinds of evidence.

They don't have to state chain reaction in order for it to be one- look at the effects of phasers vaporising people- the actual act of vaporising something produces a lot of heat; in fact, to vaporise a human being would produce heat in the form of superheated steam that would actually be dangerous to the person firing the weapon! Yet, no one ever suffered as a result. Since hand phasers and ship-borne phasers have the same visual effects, it's logical to assume they are very similar- and with no obvious release of heat in the examples you refer to, it's not logical to assume energy transfer in is in play. Your explanation of a mystery reaction to minimise heat and other destructive effects cannot be defined, whereas chain reactions are known to exist in real life and can be defined.

The Enterprise's deflectors weren't operational until after the pilot was beamed aboard the ship, so any nuke fired would have hit the hull and not the shields.

I've tried to find the script of the episode to verify this, but so far no joy. However, http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tomo..._%28episode%29 would suggest that apart from secondary systems, and warp drive, the Enterprise was fully functional. No indication they couldn't raise shields.

What about the actual walls of the internal corridors of the ship?
Doors may not be that strong, but when do you see phaser fire or characters breaking through the walls of the ship's halls?

Not the point- the torpedo detonated inside the ship- if only a tenth of the energy of a 64MT torpedo were to blast through the internal structure of the vessel everyone on board would have been killed. It should have at the very least blasted through the doors and sent waves of radiation, heat and energy through the ship. It obviously didn't.

This episode has been dealt with many times.
600 gigawatts would result in a very low yield figure of energy, yet ST ships deliver many times this in firepower throughout the entirety of ST history.
It makes no sense that such low firepower would defeat the Enterprise's shields, so the only answer to this weapon being able to penetrate or disable the ship's shields is that it wasn't a conventional weapon, it used something besides direct power to do what it did and since it didn't do any damage to the actual hull of the ship it's not powerful enough to destroy the ship.

Excuses. The only surprise registered by the Enterprise crew was not that it was an unusually low amount of energy to disable the shields, but only that the Husnock vessel could generate such power. Prior to that, two less-powerful shots did not disable the shields, so power is obviously key here.

Torpedoes are not low yield weapons, they have been proven to be more powerful than Phasers, which can drill 1600 meter holes in the ground within a few seconds and the precursor to those phasers can take out a mountain larger than Cheyenne, so the only possibility is that the Asteroid's composed of something strong enough to resist anything but a full complement of torpedoes from the Enterprise D.
BTW did it not occur to you that this Asteroid could have been recently combined from a series of other, smaller metallic asteroids, which will later crunch down into a spherical shape?

Did the asteroid look recently combined to you? It had the appearance of an ill-consolidated silcate asteroid, with what were probably only trace elements of metals. The fact it had a weak magnetic field strong enough to cause interference with a shuttle's much weaker systems is not proof of significant metal content.

[Gatefan1976]

You folks need a break:

We now return you to your regular debate.

[Aesop]

You folks need a break:

We now return you to your regular debate.

+1.

I love those videos.

[Gormagon]

That was pretty good I must say. Yeah...the new ST movie, awesome, but a little off on some tech points lol. Ok, alot off.

[Tetsujin]

I'm back from outer space!!!!...........(for those of you who have noticed my random appearances and disappearances )


I am very much surprised the same arguments are still being put forth on the Pro-SG side after this long after being rebutted. For example I read again on this page that it is logical to believe that since their is liquid water on the inside of that dyson sphere in relic that the star must be lower energy than Sol even though it was stated as being unstable and energetic. This does not compute logically because if you create a dyson sphere you must also create an artificial ecosystem, which includes a layer of protection to block harmful solar radiation which. By that logic it is pretty easy to logically assume you would increase the power of said protection to save yourself the time/resources of having to increase the circumference of said sphere by hundreds of thousands of kilometers to match the natural effectiveness a planets atmosphere would have on radiation. Also I like how no one on the SG side has even thought to wonder that if the dyson sphere was still running on automatic maybe the greenery and the water was just replaced from the last instance of the star going berserk. I mean we are talking about a controlled biosphere and it has been abandoned at least since the days of ST:TOS. Its very much a possibility that whatever shielded them from radiation was just not able to block enough of it to make residing in the sphere livable. Although you would think they would have done studies of their own star in enough detail before undertaking such an ordeal but thats on the writers and their limitations on what makes sense. Or just Build a Halo (yes like the game only bigger.)

I think you're being a tad obtuse now. Fact is, you've been claiming high megaton firepower for that scene for ages, but a ship a generation later wasn't capable of producing as much power with it's engines on overload, let alone with weapons. We have clear dialogue from 'The Doomsday Machine' that places a Constitution-class's engine overload at 100MT. It therefore doesn't matter if the NX-01 produced 50MT, 200MT or 500MT with her phasers- something obviously changed between the NX-01-era and the Constitution-class era that downgraded their power significantly.

The ships fusion reactiors for the impulse engines not its not the warp core. You use this as an arguement for some reason yet, it would be equivilent to a car not making a huge explosion. The warp travel and defensive systsems take the majority of the power of a starship and since we see how a starships power system is negatively affected once they eject the warp core we can tell that the impulse reactors are just used for impulse power and backup energy. Again since I have stated over and over the constant use of the term "phaser reserves" it must mean that the phasers do not tie directly into the main power systems like that, possibly to avoid the overloads of old yet still maintain the high instantateous output.

There's no indication that they could either. We never see firepower like that on display again, in any era of Star Trek. It's clear overloading has limitations.

Well the phase cannons suffering no damage after outputting that much firepower it is pretty clear that they are capable of outputing that much energy again. Also given the events of the episode "In a Mirror, Darkly" where ships from the alternate universe combat a primary universe Constitution class and get owned pretty easily even which the alternate universe being far more militaristic and absorbing vulcan technology which means that the NX class of that universe was more advanced than that of the mainstream continuity. So I would say firepower showed an increase, you saying that it didnt because they didnt make a habit of blowing up terestrial objects is interesting.

They don't have to state chain reaction in order for it to be one- look at the effects of phasers vaporising people- the actual act of vaporising something produces a lot of heat; in fact, to vaporise a human being would produce heat in the form of superheated steam that would actually be dangerous to the person firing the weapon! Yet, no one ever suffered as a result. Since hand phasers and ship-borne phasers have the same visual effects, it's logical to assume they are very similar- and with no obvious release of heat in the examples you refer to, it's not logical to assume energy transfer in is in play. Your explanation of a mystery reaction to minimise heat and other destructive effects cannot be defined, whereas chain reactions are known to exist in real life and can be defined.

The thermal reactions happen they are just downplayed as far as the thermal effects in regards to people. I mean they do still show many events of people and objects scorched pretty badly after particle weapon hits. The term "phaser burns" should be enough. Also the phaser having to be modified and powered down to drill in that manner is pretty much proof they are powerful.

I've tried to find the script of the episode to verify this, but so far no joy. However, http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tomo..._%28episode%29 would suggest that apart from secondary systems, and warp drive, the Enterprise was fully functional. No indication they couldn't raise shields.

Well it just plain doesnt make sense. The NX use fusion weapons and their use was abandoned for bigger and better things. So I dont think that its logial to take the context of that single episode and make it sound like it is the rule and not the exeption when there is much evidence to the contrary. So apart from secondary system and their main source of power generation(which powers the shields and such) everything was fine....-_-. I mean just in general its kind of hard to use ST:TOS in a battle of consistancy because it is the most inconsistant ST series period. .....Warp 14 -_-......

Not the point- the torpedo detonated inside the ship- if only a tenth of the energy of a 64MT torpedo were to blast through the internal structure of the vessel everyone on board would have been killed. It should have at the very least blasted through the doors and sent waves of radiation, heat and energy through the ship. It obviously didn't.

I agree that was very odd even with the usage of containment fields, yet there were instances of "we are all going to die if this torpedo explodes inside the ship" in "ST DS9 Starship Down" (Dominion Torpedo) and the instance where the crew of Voyager beams a single torpedo inside a Borg vessel and blows it up. So I would say you just brought up an exception and not a rule.

Excuses. The only surprise registered by the Enterprise crew was not that it was an unusually low amount of energy to disable the shields, but only that the Husnock vessel could generate such power. Prior to that, two less-powerful shots did not disable the shields, so power is obviously key here.

I think again you are not seeing the dillema. If a weapon has enough power to completely overwhelm the shields in a single volley then it is going to do damage to the ship if not destroy it. The fact of the matter is that it didnt, and nothing that odd is ever seen again. Usually particle weapons do more damage to the hull than the shields not less and the Enterprise D had no ablative hull armor so the weapon must have been geared to just disable the shields especially since the super being admitted to trying to make them leave and not to destroy them. We also have the fact of Worf acting as though it was strange the shields were down and immediately trying to reassemble them even though if the ships shields were drained through normal means it would take quite some time for them to recharge to combat ready levels again(at least on vessels Galaxy class and older.)

Did the asteroid look recently combined to you? It had the appearance of an ill-consolidated silcate asteroid, with what were probably only trace elements of metals. The fact it had a weak magnetic field strong enough to cause interference with a shuttle's much weaker systems is not proof of significant metal content.

Weak magnetic fields and gravametric distortions. The force of these things shook a galaxy class vessel. How can you say something is weak when it has the force to shake something that large and that is with maneuvering thrusters and inertial dampeners counteracting the forces effect on the vessel.