Stargate Evolution: Nature vs. Nurture

[Seastallion]

(SPOILERS below up through SG-1 Season Nine's "Origin" ...)
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A rundown on stargate psuedo-history:

Several Million years ago, the Ancients dominated this galaxy and had considerable influnece in a few other galaxies as well. During that time they decided to go to Pegasus to increase their territory, making slightly less evolved humans in the process.

While the Atlanteans were gone, a plague began to spread among the Ancients still living in this galaxy. Finally, the only known Ancients left were the Atlanteans. The Ancients in this galaxy made a device on Dakara, to recreate human life after they had died out. Their plan worked, obviously.

In the Million or so years since the Atlanteans had left Earth, a new human species had evolved as a result of the Dakara device. In that time new human life took root in Pegasus as well. However, another threat became known to the Atlanteans; The Wraith.

While it is not completely certain...the Wraith may have been a direct result of the Atlanteans spreading their DNA across pegasus, and then somehow crossing with the 'insect' seen early on, in SgA. However, this leaves the problem that they seemed to advance rather quickly to become a threat to the Atlanteans. This may suggest that an unseen enemy was at work...perhaps even the same enemy that started the plague in the Milky Way? (Those Orii, perhaps?) This unseen enemy might have artificially advanced the Wraith, ahead of schedule.

Finally, when the Wraith became too much for the Atlanteans to deal with, they decided to return to Earth 10,000 years ago. Very likely, they returned only to find their old home over-run with Goa'uld. However, it is also likely that by inter-marrying with humans, they passed on their Ancient genes. That being the case, allowing a few humans who possessed those genes to access Ancients technology.

My point in all that was this... Evolution in the Stargate Universe, was not always random. Their seems to have been an unseen enemy of the Ancients always in the background, but rarely showing itself. It may be that this unseen enemy was responsible for the plague in this galaxy, and the Wraith in Pegasus.

Perhaps that unseen enemy is from another galaxy completely...Andromeda perhaps? An enemy capable of rivaling the Ancients, but preferring to operate by insidious means. A war of attrition? Think of it... What is left of the Ancient Alliance? The Ancients are all but completely gone, The furlings are still missing, The Nox are in hiding, and the Asgard, while still active in the happenings of the galaxy are dying as a race.

Ever wonder why the Ascended Ancients don't interfere with corporeal matters? Maybe it is more than hubris. What if it is because of a truce? We know that the Orii are evil ascended beings. Maybe the good ascended beings made a deal; No one acts directly on the physical plane, in exchange for the evil ones to do the same. Perhaps it was all to avoid some out right super-cosmic war.

Perhaps the reason the Orii have finally decided to act, is because their latest agent (Anubis) has failed, and they're tired of standing on the side lines. The classic War between good and evil, has just been taken up a notch. None of this is confirmed...but it makes for quite the speculation.

[Egeria]

Great ideas, makes alot of sense and does make for speculation. You've got me thinking now.....

[Taonas]

Now THAT is what I'd want things to turn out like.

Me and unseen enemies work so well

The Drahk in the 5th season of B5 for example, we had no clue who was pulling the strings... Ok, we had an idea.. But still!

[LordAnubis]

A rundown on stargate psuedo-history:

Several Million years ago, the Ancients dominated this galaxy and had considerable influnece in a few other galaxies as well. During that time they decided to go to Pegasus to increase their territory, making slightly less evolved humans in the process.

While the Atlanteans were gone, a plague began to spread among the Ancients still living in this galaxy. Finally, the only known Ancients left were the Atlanteans. The Ancients in this galaxy made a device on Dakara, to recreate human life after they had died out. Their plan worked, obviously.

In the Million or so years since the Atlanteans had left Earth, a new human species had evolved as a result of the Dakara device. In that time new human life took root in Pegasus as well. However, another threat became known to the Atlanteans; The Wraith.

While it is not completely certain...the Wraith may have been a direct result of the Atlanteans spreading their DNA across pegasus, and then somehow crossing with the 'insect' seen early on, in SgA. However, this leaves the problem that they seemed to advance rather quickly to become a threat to the Atlanteans. This may suggest that an unseen enemy was at work...perhaps even the same enemy that started the plague in the Milky Way? (Those Orii, perhaps?) This unseen enemy might have artificially advanced the Wraith, ahead of schedule.

Finally, when the Wraith became too much for the Atlanteans to deal with, they decided to return to Earth 10,000 years ago. Very likely, they returned only to find their old home over-run with Goa'uld. However, it is also likely that by inter-marrying with humans, they passed on their Ancient genes. That being the case, allowing a few humans who possessed those genes to access Ancients technology.

My point in all that was this... Evolution in the Stargate Universe, was not always random. Their seems to have been an unseen enemy of the Ancients always in the background, but rarely showing itself. It may be that this unseen enemy was responsible for the plague in this galaxy, and the Wraith in Pegasus.

Perhaps that unseen enemy is from another galaxy completely...Andromeda perhaps? An enemy capable of rivaling the Ancients, but preferring to operate by insidious means. A war of attrition? Think of it... What is left of the Ancient Alliance? The Ancients are all but completely gone, The furlings are still missing, The Nox are in hiding, and the Asgard, while still active in the happenings of the galaxy are dying as a race.

Ever wonder why the Ascended Ancients don't interfere with corporeal matters? Maybe it is more than hubris. What if it is because of a truce? We know that the Orii are evil ascended beings. Maybe the good ascended beings made a deal; No one acts directly on the physical plane, in exchange for the evil ones to do the same. Perhaps it was all to avoid some out right super-cosmic war.

Perhaps the reason the Orii have finally decided to act, is because their latest agent (Anubis) has failed, and they're tired of standing on the side lines. The classic War between good and evil, has just been taken up a notch. None of this is confirmed...but it makes for quite the speculation.

You need to check some of your facts. Some of what you said was not fact but pure speculation.

[hooger]

cool

[Metonic]

Well... really have no idea why its evolution nature or nurture? i mean your talkin completely about a background story of the Oree and Ancients, nothingof evolving would matter.

Interesting Theories. Most of the first half are in debate, like plague being spread before,after, or during pegasus. Ancients spreading to other Galaxy's, ECT.

but interesting.

I think it may be the same way the Oree working on the sidelines, but i believe it is MW Galaxy sideline only.

The Oree may have controled an entire Galaxy and scouts spotted Ancients moving closer to their Galaxy each year. In an Effort to keep ancients outof thier territory, they tried to reduce the numbers, perhaps sending captured ships containing the virus, back to MW. Seeing this epidemic the Ancients fled to Pegasus. IF OREE(ORII?) WERE NOT ONLY IN MW Then.. Then the Ancients accendently created the Wraith, the Oree became aware of this as the Pegasus wasnt very far from them aswell. They feared the Wraith would come after them, so they sent another plague that killed off humans rather than ancients(ancients may realize that two attacks of plagues to them would be on purpose) The Ancients found the virus and treated it before the humans were effected.

The Oree may have been able to put up a fight against the Ancients in MW but they may have feared the Nox, Furlings, and Asgards would interferre, thus ending their civilization. The Oree knew that in order to protect their territory theyd have to eliminate such a powerful alliance, so they took out the Ancients by plague, they knew the Asgards would die out in a few centuries, and the Furlings and Nox wouldnt come out unless Ancients and Asgardss both asked and they would agree it was needed. The Oree broke the Alliance and protected their territory.

The Oree may have feared the Gou'ald would invade their territory, but realisedthe Gou'ald were not as advanced or united. They knew it may take thousands of years before the Gou'ald would come. But now, The Gou'ald are gone. The Decendents of the Ancients went from primitive to Hightech in under a decade. they had set up outpost on other planets, signed treaties with many planets, and allaince with the Asgard, a good friendship with the Nox, and have the ability to use any left over ancient devices. The Oree feared that at the rate Humans come to power we may take their galaxy away from them, and now they decided to goto war with the MW. Many of the Oree may have ascended and are gaurding their territory and playing God.

[Im_just_guessing]

Andromeda perhaps?

Oh god...combining all the Sci-Fi shows into one...all we need is the Xindi...



(Yes I know, Andromeda is a galaxy...)

[Seastallion]

Metonic- Well... really have no idea why its evolution nature or nurture? i mean your talkin completely about a background story of the Oree and Ancients, nothingof evolving would matter.

Interesting Theories. Most of the first half are in debate, like plague being spread before,after, or during pegasus. Ancients spreading to other Galaxy's, ECT.

I wasn't specifically referring to the Orii, although they could be the 'unseen' culprit of my theory. As to Evolution, it plays a major role in the relationship between the Ancients, and modern humans. Possibly the Wraith as well. We now know that human 'evolution' was NOT an accident. I'm also suggesting that the evolution of the Wraith wasn't an accident either.

However, the fact that the Wraith were able to catch up to the Ancients so quickly in terms of technological progress seems unlikely without outside interference to help them along. Particularly if they DID evolve after the Atlantean arrived in Pegasus.

As to wether or not the Plague began before, or after the Atlanteans left for Pegasus is really beside the point. The Atlanteans themselves never suffered from it themselves, although they were certainly aware of it, and they knew of the plan to recreate life in the galaxy with the Dakara device.

(Remember Janus qoute, "After all, they are the second evolution of our kind". *from 'Before I sleep', on SgA* Indicating they knew what had happened back in the Milky Way.) We don't really know why they left Earth, for certain. It could have been because of the spreading Plague, or there may have been another reason.

We know the frozen Ancient lady was present when Atlantis left (from the pilot eps. of SgA) and she seemed healthy enough. Yet after she was found a million or so years later, she was ill with the plague. Either the Atlanteans knew about the spread of the disease and left before it reached them, or the Plague occured after they had left.

Either way, it resulted in the instigated re-evolution of the Human species. Thus, my title "Stargate Evolution: Nature vs. Nurture"

***a.k.a.- random events vs. preplanned interference***

[Questionable]

I have two things to say on this.

1. You've got me thinking, as was your point. I do hope that you are right, or at least partly right. It would be interesting to see how Earth deals with an enemy that is just as bad as bad can come, and part Ascended being. It would be hard to see where TPTB are going to take it, but if this turns out to be the case, it could be the best season ever. ( I'm not against change, you know )

2. I think you have way to much time on your hands. ( Don't we all? )

Kudos,
Questionable

[gate01]

A rundown on stargate psuedo-history:

Several Million years ago, the Ancients dominated this galaxy and had considerable influnece in a few other galaxies as well. During that time they decided to go to Pegasus to increase their territory, making slightly less evolved humans in the process.

While the Atlanteans were gone, a plague began to spread among the Ancients still living in this galaxy. Finally, the only known Ancients left were the Atlanteans. The Ancients in this galaxy made a device on Dakara, to recreate human life after they had died out. Their plan worked, obviously.

In the Million or so years since the Atlanteans had left Earth, a new human species had evolved as a result of the Dakara device. In that time new human life took root in Pegasus as well. However, another threat became known to the Atlanteans; The Wraith.

While it is not completely certain...the Wraith may have been a direct result of the Atlanteans spreading their DNA across pegasus, and then somehow crossing with the 'insect' seen early on, in SgA. However, this leaves the problem that they seemed to advance rather quickly to become a threat to the Atlanteans. This may suggest that an unseen enemy was at work...perhaps even the same enemy that started the plague in the Milky Way? (Those Orii, perhaps?) This unseen enemy might have artificially advanced the Wraith, ahead of schedule.

Finally, when the Wraith became too much for the Atlanteans to deal with, they decided to return to Earth 10,000 years ago. Very likely, they returned only to find their old home over-run with Goa'uld. However, it is also likely that by inter-marrying with humans, they passed on their Ancient genes. That being the case, allowing a few humans who possessed those genes to access Ancients technology.

My point in all that was this... Evolution in the Stargate Universe, was not always random. Their seems to have been an unseen enemy of the Ancients always in the background, but rarely showing itself. It may be that this unseen enemy was responsible for the plague in this galaxy, and the Wraith in Pegasus.

Perhaps that unseen enemy is from another galaxy completely...Andromeda perhaps? An enemy capable of rivaling the Ancients, but preferring to operate by insidious means. A war of attrition? Think of it... What is left of the Ancient Alliance? The Ancients are all but completely gone, The furlings are still missing, The Nox are in hiding, and the Asgard, while still active in the happenings of the galaxy are dying as a race.

Ever wonder why the Ascended Ancients don't interfere with corporeal matters? Maybe it is more than hubris. What if it is because of a truce? We know that the Orii are evil ascended beings. Maybe the good ascended beings made a deal; No one acts directly on the physical plane, in exchange for the evil ones to do the same. Perhaps it was all to avoid some out right super-cosmic war.

Perhaps the reason the Orii have finally decided to act, is because their latest agent (Anubis) has failed, and they're tired of standing on the side lines. The classic War between good and evil, has just been taken up a notch. None of this is confirmed...but it makes for quite the speculation.

i love the idea cool

Well... really have no idea why its evolution nature or nurture? i mean your talkin completely about a background story of the Oree and Ancients, nothingof evolving would matter.

Interesting Theories. Most of the first half are in debate, like plague being spread before,after, or during pegasus. Ancients spreading to other Galaxy's, ECT.

but interesting.

I think it may be the same way the Oree working on the sidelines, but i believe it is MW Galaxy sideline only.

The Oree may have controled an entire Galaxy and scouts spotted Ancients moving closer to their Galaxy each year. In an Effort to keep ancients outof thier territory, they tried to reduce the numbers, perhaps sending captured ships containing the virus, back to MW. Seeing this epidemic the Ancients fled to Pegasus. IF OREE(ORII?) WERE NOT ONLY IN MW Then.. Then the Ancients accendently created the Wraith, the Oree became aware of this as the Pegasus wasnt very far from them aswell. They feared the Wraith would come after them, so they sent another plague that killed off humans rather than ancients(ancients may realize that two attacks of plagues to them would be on purpose) The Ancients found the virus and treated it before the humans were effected.

The Oree may have been able to put up a fight against the Ancients in MW but they may have feared the Nox, Furlings, and Asgards would interferre, thus ending their civilization. The Oree knew that in order to protect their territory theyd have to eliminate such a powerful alliance, so they took out the Ancients by plague, they knew the Asgards would die out in a few centuries, and the Furlings and Nox wouldnt come out unless Ancients and Asgardss both asked and they would agree it was needed. The Oree broke the Alliance and protected their territory.

The Oree may have feared the Gou'ald would invade their territory, but realisedthe Gou'ald were not as advanced or united. They knew it may take thousands of years before the Gou'ald would come. But now, The Gou'ald are gone. The Decendents of the Ancients went from primitive to Hightech in under a decade. they had set up outpost on other planets, signed treaties with many planets, and allaince with the Asgard, a good friendship with the Nox, and have the ability to use any left over ancient devices. The Oree feared that at the rate Humans come to power we may take their galaxy away from them, and now they decided to goto war with the MW. Many of the Oree may have ascended and are gaurding their territory and playing God.

love this one too and if you combined these two then unless they can come up with a better idea then let the writers use it and add it on

[Wandering Tamer]

These are really good ideas. In fact, for me, they're some of the first idea's that actually make sense regarding all in the info we've gotten so far. good job. i'm thinking about it now.

[Seastallion]

Wandering Tamer- These are really good ideas. In fact, for me, they're some of the first idea's that actually make sense regarding all in the info we've gotten so far. good job. i'm thinking about it now.

Thank you..!

I DO try to think things through as much as possible before I post, which is usually why my post are as long as they usually are. Anywho, it is fun to try and make sense of it all, and then see how close you were when the show finally begins to answer the questions.

"All the World is a stage, and we the actors in it..." - Shakespeare

[airfro]

ok where do i begin
1) (always a good starting point) the ancients left the mw because of the plauge and it was there before they went to the peg galaxy
2) for the writers to make someone more powerfull or the same level as the ancients would just be wrong, we hwve had it shoved down us for 8 seasons that the ancients are all powerfull changing it would just be anoying
3)the ori arent as powerfull as the ancients or werent (dont ask me how i no they just cant be)
4)if the orii were as powerfull as the ancients the yuwould have no problem destroying the asgard nox and the furling
5)the nox arent in hiding there pasifists
6)asgard might not be dieing out as they found some of there people 10,000 yrs ago ad they now have some of the ancients knowlege to help them, and with the replicators gone they have more time to reseach
7)the wraith didnt get to hot to handle the ancients won almost every battle but there was to many of them so they went home to one day return but they accended instead
8)i think the ancients might have helped the orii accend
9) this is more of a question, when you accend do you get all of the acients knowledge like daniel and anubis or does it have to be earned of the ancients if your not an ancient/human

[Seastallion]

In reply to airfro:

Sorry dude, but you're making a lot of assumptions that aren't warranted. I shall, by the numbers, try to show you what I mean.

1.- We do NOT know why the Ancients left for Pegasus. We DO know that the Atlantis left earth several million years ago. This may indicate that the plague had NOT begun yet, but that isn't certain. On the other hand, the plague had begun, and the Ancients that had not contracted the plague decided to leave to escape the plague. We DO know that the Atlanteans were the only KNOWN Ancients to survive the plague occuring in the milky way galaxy, without Ascending. We DO know that the Atlanteans were aware of the plague and the plan to recreate life in our galaxy. We do NOT know that all the Atlanteans who returned to Earth 10,000 years ago ascended.

2.- That was just your opinion... but I disagree. We've been told that the Ancients were incredibly powerful, but not ALL powerful. It was NEVER stated that another race of beings couldn't have ascended and be just as powerful.

3.- Again, just your opinion. If you had read the second half, of my original post, you would see why it just might make perfect sense.

4.- That might be true, technically. However, they may not be willing to do it because of reasons we are not yet aware of. My truce idea, might be a good reason as to why they wouldn't.

5.- The Nox are in hiding because they ARE pacifist. They don't want to have to engage anyone in combat, so they simply keep to themselves as much as possible, and keep themselves out of sight.

6.- A.- We don't know how much that ONE body they found has or will help them. (the show hasn't touched on that subject very much recently, except to say that we were trying to help, which indicates that they hadn't solved the problem by season 8.) B.- You make it sound as though they've gotten some new ancients knowledge that they hadn't had before they met sg1... on what do you base that statement? (They didn't get any from O'Neill, other than the weapon.) C.- The replicators were wiped out in THIS galaxy, but there is no guarantee that some of them may have survived in another galaxy. i.e.- They may not be done yet...

7.- You missed my point... it is unreasonable that the Wraith could have gotten as advanced as they did without the Atlanteans having noticed first, without outside intervention. Yes, the Atlanteans could defeat them, but they should have been able to see that they were becoming a threat before they (the wraith) had gotten advanced enough for numbers to matter. If they (the wraith, again) had advanced naturally, the Atlanteans should've been able to wipe them out regardless of their numbers. (sort of like Nuking a pond over-filled with fish... bye-bye fishies...)

8.- Maybe, maybe not. We don't know yet.

9.- Until the writers make it clear, we can't be entirely certain, but from what we've seen that would seem to be the case. From what we know, the Ascended Ancients use their combined powers to enforce their will. This means if there were another group of ascended beings of equal or similiar number, than they would also be able to exert considerable power and the Ancients would probably find it difficult to keep them in line. We do know that the ancients can force individuals to retake their physical forms, and even wipe their memories. They didn't do it to Anubis, because they wanted to teach Oma a lesson. Anubis himself, stated that there were many levels of asenscion, so this may indicate that different ascended beings have different levels of power. Until the writers clear that up, we can only speculate.

Hope that clears some things up.

[Ganjaman]

Actually they did go to pegasus because of the plague, it was a fresh start, why else move entire cities there? The plague destroyed the MW huamsn and once no-one left to feed on, died out itself. Once that had happened the device at Dakara was used to recreate life generally in the galaxy, then over time humans gradually re-evolved again. Then the remaining ancients (ones who had not ascended or died) returned to earth 10,000 years ago to secretly live out their lives among the humans, i.e. they didn't make a mark.

Also somewhere it has been said the Ori are on a lower plane of existence/ascension than the Ancients indicating they are less powerful. It also said the Ori cannot directly act in our galaxy without incurring the wrath of the Ancients sugggesting the ANcients are more powerful and there isn't a balance.
Also we cannot comment on the wraith or Ori as not enough is known about either. But looking at the map shown to everett in Siege 2, they either came from outside pegasus or from a single planet and then spread. There is no indication that the Wraith just happened and grew to what they were very fast. It may have been an ancient experiment gone wrong or perhaps just that the Ancients awoke them and then they bred and spread extremely fast. Also the way it was said of the bug, the bug is a distant cousin of theirs, sharing a common ancestor rather than being the ancestor of the wraith so the wraith just did not evolve all of a sudden. I think it is simply that the Ancients in their arrogant foolishness came across them and accidentally started it all like Asgard beaming replicators aboard for study or Humans allowing RepliCarter access to disruptor tech or Apophis coming to Earth and starting the downfall of the Goa'uld or Oma accidentally allowing Anubis to ascend. Point is a lot of stargate gets by on mistakes and accidents.