Thought On Destiny's Reactors.

[ColdZero]

Also a lot of people underestimate the power of AM annihilation compared to Fusion reactors or Fission.

Fusion generates 1000x more energy than Fission per particle. AM generators convert all the energy from matter to energy providing 1000x energy than FUSION/particle, they are the most efficient generator you can have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_...ergy_densities

Yes but you have to collect that antimatter or somehow create it. Then once you have it you have to store it. Since antimatter will annihilate as soon as it comes in contact with normal matter you have to contain it in a magnetic field. The only way to do that would be to contain antimatter that has a charge. Say we're dealing with hydrogen, you'd only be able to collect and contain hydrogen ions.

Somebody posted a link about solar flares and antimatter previously, even if we assumed Destiny was doing something even remotely like that, its sucking in a lot of gas through those intakes. Thats a lot of antimatter that's just sitting around not reacting with anything else around it, which doesn't really happen.

If they were generating the antimatter, there's no real reason to go to a star to collect anything, you're passing plenty of interstellar hydrogen as you're flying around at >c.

The best we can assume is that Destiny uses the hydrogen in the stars somehow, probably through fusion to power its systems.

[thekillman]

naquahdah is better than AMAT.

also, my dual-function explanation shows how the Destiny can do what it does:

-it collects power directly from the star, probably via the shield itself. the shield does not collapse as it's designed much like Atlantis' shield (as long as there is sufficient power, the shield is impenetrable) and drains power from the star. thus, the closer it gets, the more power it generates, and the stronger the shield becomes. meanwhile, to make any significant refuel, the Destiny scoops up plasma to generate more energy, and that way refuels. it's also why the Destiny outside a star is much weaker. also, it's shield isn't impenetrable for weaponsfire, as we're dealing with uniform pressure and heat, not localised high-energy. besides, the shield power cycle won't apply, as the plasma bolt hits, the shield then becomes stronger, but there's no second plasma bolt. then, the effect wears off, the next bolt hits, etc etc etc. a star applies constant pressure and heat and thus constantly keeps the shield strong.

[Quadhelix]

as i said, to explain it all, the best would simply be a combo: when near the sun, it uses the energy directly (perhaps because the shield generates the energy?) while also draining plasma for superhigh density fusion. so dense, the fusion reactor would happen VERY fast, generating immense energy. in the Gas Giant, it might've sucked up hydrogen and stored it as big spheres or blocks of metallic hydrogen.

Question: what are the fusion reactors doing while the Destiny isn't in a star?

do capacitors have the capacity to store so much energy?

Griffiths, David. Introduction to Electrodynamics. 3rd edition.
"In the second edition I claimed you would need a forklift to carry a 1 F capacitor. This is no longer the case--you can now buy a 1 F capacitor that fits comfortably in a soup spoon" (Pg 104).

The third edition came out in 1999; the second edition came out in 1989.

[Mister Oragahn]

After pouring more thoughts into this, I really don't think Destiny absorbs any energy. It *just* sucks in large amounts of fuel to consume later on. If she was looking for AM she'd stay around flares, not dip into the photosphere, and there are other places to get AM. Plus AM is a risky "fuel", and unless you have found a way to really exploit all possible particles that are generated by matter annihilation, there's an enormous amount of waste with AM.
Fusion, no matter what, can completely shut down since it requires immense energies to be allowed first, and thus there can't be any real risk with fusion fuel (very light gases) and there's certainly no overload to fear (yeah, that point about the terraforming colony's overloading fusion reactor tied to the atmospheric processor in in ALIENS didn't make much sense).
What the ship has to do is pile up lots of energy.

But it doesn't need to be limited to fusion. There is always room for the possibility that the fusion fuel is used itself for an even greater form of power reactor, one that could only work, and provide a net gain, from the moment the ship could at least provide a certain amount of power first.
See this post.

The biggest issue is why go into a star when there are better ways to gather fuel from gas giants. It's not even a question of having proper star charts or not because Destiny has literally chosen to dive into a star instead of sucking up gases from a gas giant, which it skimmed.

The only thing a star has that a gas giant doesn't is that it's producing power, although not that much per square meter if you really think about it.

So while I don't think that the Destiny has a system to absorb radiations as she nears a star, she probably has a soft spot for plasma, but then again I don't see what's so efficient about grabbing some very hot plasma.
So we can safely return to the point of gathering hydrogen, especially since there's never been any better fuel for fusion.
Even Deuterium-Tritium fusion is not as good - check the energy density tables for example (1), assuming 100% efficiencies, D-T fusion is twice less powerful.
The other problem with using gas giants' gases is that if we go by the limits we are experiencing today, the reactor might need to be bigger to start consuming the fuel in question (2). If Destiny picked Helium-3 (3) from a gas giant, at best by mixing it with heavy hydrogen it could obtain 591,600,000 MJ/kilogram. Sounds high, close enough to top H fusion, but notice that you do need heavy hydrogen. You'd either have to find a planet with large quantities of water and logically heavy water (4). Although much less dangerous than tapping stars, it's also terribly time consuming and oxygen would have to be filtered or consumed first.
If it's filtered and stored, this would however be a plus for life support, but Destiny apparently wasn't really meant to work with a permanent crew. The ship could also replenish her water storage doing so.
With roughly 35 mg (3.5 e-5 kg) of deuterium per liter of water (which itself is roughly 1 kg/L), or 0.003,5%/L. Inversely, to obtain 1 kg of deuterium that way, you'd need at least to collect 28,571.43 liters of water. More than 28 tonnes. And then there's the question of the efficiency of power generation.
Harvesting deuterium from rare dusty cloud formations surrounding some stars would also prove not reliable enough (5), in comparison to the abundance of stars.
Quite clearly, if your ship is powerful and tough enough to take a dip into a star, there's no question as to which option is the quickest.

Now, using Helium-3 is much more interesting. Fusing Helium-3 would provide, at a 100% efficiency, 206 e6 MJ/kg. It's not so far from perfect hydrogen fusion. Density of helium may be low, but time is not a constraint much in such conditions, for the gain at hand, and there's no question about flying right into a giant fusion oven.
I find it odd to consider that the Destiny's reactor, if it were fusion based, couldn't handle some variety in its mileage, really.
Heck, a planet like Uranus has an atmosphere which "is composed of about 83 percent hydrogen, 15 percent helium, 2 percent methane, and tiny amounts of ethane and other gases. The atmospheric pressure beneath the methane cloud layer is about 19 pounds per square inch (130 kilopascals), or about 1.3 times the atmospheric pressure at the surface of Earth. Atmospheric pressure is the pressure exerted by the gases of a planet's atmosphere due to their weight," (6).

So we fall back to the point that there could be an advantage in tapping a star because of its ongoing fusion reactions. It's very puzzling and I don't think it makes much sense.

On an interesting note, the escape velocity from the surface of a star like ours is 617.7 km/s.
If Destiny massed 1 million tonnes, she'd have -at the very least- to generate 1.908 e20 J.
That only being for the pure kinetic energy; it doesn't take into consideration the question of Newtonian thrusters.
Destiny has a wide arc-thruster, and thus momentum and fuel mass would obviously require an even greater total energy production.
Without anti-gravity that would cheat physics or some mass lightening tech, the fuel requirements would simply be silly.

EDIT: typos.

[mirdin1992]

Mr.O Aren't stars a lot more numerous than gas giants(may or may not be true) but they are certainly more visible. When you look in the night sky you see them and can assume they exist. Planets not so much.

Me? I'll go with the 'diving into the sun is cool' thinking that was probably the main reason the writers did it.

[colbmista]

i dont get why the military people who went to the destiny didnt grab one or 2 naq generaters when they went runnin through the gate... they grabbed other tech liek the comm stones....

[AdamTM]

After pouring more thoughts into this, I really don't think Destiny absorbs any energy. It *just* sucks in large amounts of fuel to consume later on. If she was looking for AM she'd stay around flares, not dip into the photosphere, and there are other places to get AM. Plus AM is a risky "fuel", and unless you have found a way to really exploit all possible particles that are generated by matter annihilation, there's an enormous amount of waste with AM.
Fusion, no matter what, can completely shut down since it requires immense energies to be allowed first, and thus there can't be any real risk with fusion fuel (very light gases) and there's certainly no overload to fear (yeah, that point about the terraforming colony's overloading fusion reactor tied to the atmospheric processor in in ALIENS didn't make much sense).
What the ship has to do is pile up lots of energy.

But it doesn't need to be limited to fusion. There is always room for the possibility that the fusion fuel is used itself for an even greater form of power reactor, one that could only work, and provide a net gain, from the moment the ship could at least provide a certain amount of power first.
See this post.

The biggest issue is why go into a star when there are better ways to gather fuel from gas giants. It's not even a question of having proper star charts or not because Destiny has literally chosen to dive into a star instead of sucking up gases from a gas giant, which it skimmed.

The only thing a star has that a gas giant doesn't is that it's producing power, although not that much per square meter if you really think about it.

So while I don't think that the Destiny has a system to absorb radiations as she nears a star, she probably has a soft spot for plasma, but then again I don't see what's so efficient about grabbing some very hot plasma.
So we can safely return to the point of gathering hydrogen, especially since there's never been any better fuel for fusion.
Even Deuterium-Tritium fusion is not as good - check the energy density tables for example (1), assuming 100% efficiencies, D-T fusion is twice less powerful.
The other problem with using gas giants' gases is that if we go by the limits we are experiencing today, the reactor might need to be bigger to start consuming the fuel in question (2). If Destiny picked Helium-3 (3 from a gas giant, at best by mixing it with heavy hydrogen it could obtain 591,600,000 MJ/kilogram. Sounds high, close enough to top H fusion, but notice that you do need heavy hydrogen. You'd either have to find a planet with large quantities of water and logically heavy water (4). Although much less dangerous than tapping stars, it's also terribly time consuming and oxygen would have to be filtered or consumed first.
If it's filted and stored, this would however be a plus for life support, but Destiny apparently wasn't really meant to work with a permanent crew. The ship could also resplenish her water storage doing so.
With roughly 35 mg (3.5 e-5 kg) of deuterium per litre of water (which itself is roughly 1 kg/L), or 0.003,5%/L. Inversely, to obtain 1 kg of deuterium that way, you'd need at least to collect 28,571.43 liters of water. More than 28 tonnes. And then there's the question of the efficiency of power generation.
Harvesting deuterium from rare dusty cloud formations surrounding some stars would also prove not reliable enough (5), in comparison to the abundance of stars.
Quite clearly, if your ship is powerful and tough enough to take a dip into a star, there's no question as to which option is the quickest.

Now, using Helium-3 is much more interesting. Fusing Helium-3 would provide, at a 100% efficiency, 206 e6 MJ/kg. It's not so far from perfect hydrogen fusion. Density of helium may be low, but time is not a constraint much in such conditions, for the gain at hand, and there's no question about flying right into a giant fusion oven.
I find it odd to consider that the Destiny's reactor, if it were fusion based, couldn't handle some variety in its mileage, really.
Heck, a planet like Uranus has an atmosphere which "is composed of about 83 percent hydrogen, 15 percent helium, 2 percent methane, and tiny amounts of ethane and other gases. The atmospheric pressure beneath the methane cloud layer is about 19 pounds per square inch (130 kilopascals), or about 1.3 times the atmospheric pressure at the surface of Earth. Atmospheric pressure is the pressure exerted by the gases of a planet's atmosphere due to their weight," (6).

So we fall back to the point that there could be an advantage in tapping a star because of its ongoing fusion reactions. It's very puzzling and I don't think it makes much sense.

On an interesting note, the escape velocity from the surface of a star like ours is 617.7 km/s.
If Destiny massed 1 million tonnes, she'd have -at the very least- to generate 1.908 e20 J.
That only being for the pure kinetic energy; it doesn't take into consideration the question of Newtonian thrusters.
Destiny has a wide arc-thruster, and thus momentum and fuel mass would obviously require an even greater total energy production.
Without anti-gravity that would cheat physics or some mass lightening tech, the fuel requirements would simply be silly.

I couldn't agree more. Fusion is not a viable way to power this kind of technology.
Its energy inefficient to refuel like this, also incredibly silly.

Its like driving a car through a burning petrol-station trying to scoop up the not-yet burned fuel while trying to not burn to a crisp.

The proposal that the shields somehow absorb energy and then use this energy to power themselves would border on a perpetuum mobile. That shield would be inpenetrable by default, you would just need to get it going once and then derive power from weapon-fire/atmospheric pressure/lava/etc to keep it up. One would wonder why Atlantis's siege-shield isnt like this.

Imo, either the writers just didnt do the research and picked a generation-method from a SF-energy-generator-list without thinking, or the explenation will come later on as to how the ship generates enough power.

[Quadhelix]

Fusion generates 1000x more energy than Fission per particle.

This contradicts the source that you gave: fusion provides only about eight times as much energy per kilogram than fission (at least in bombs or fast breeder reactors). However, it is worth noting that the particles used in fission (U-238 atoms) are about 100 times as massive as the particles used in fusion. Therefore, you actually get far less energy per particle from fusion.

AM generators convert all the energy from matter to energy providing 1000x energy than FUSION/particle, they are the most efficient generator you can have.

Note: matter-antimatter reactors do not convert anything into energy. The energy is already there, stored in the mass of the material - this is call "rest energy." All that matter-antimatter reactors do is convert rest energy into kinetic energy and light.

I couldn't agree more. Fusion is not a viable way to power this kind of technology.
Its energy inefficient to refuel like this, also incredibly silly.

Its like driving a car through a burning petrol-station trying to scoop up the not-yet burned fuel while trying to not burn to a crisp.

Point of fact: the "burning" hydrogen is in the core of the star. The Destiny never approaches that.

It, instead, travels through the untouched hydrogen in the upper levels of the star.


Therefore, it is more like going to a petrol station during a very hot summer day, rather than through a burning station.

The proposal that the shields somehow absorb energy and then use this energy to power themselves would border on a perpetuum mobile. That shield would be inpenetrable by default, you would just need to get it going once and then derive power from weapon-fire/atmospheric pressure/lava/etc to keep it up. One would wonder why Atlantis's siege-shield isnt like this.

We have already seen such a shield in "Beachhead."

Moreover, such a shield would not, in fact, be immune to weaponry. Why? Because the shield would not be able to reinforce itself quickly enough to prevent damage: if it is being hit by a weapon blast right now, it is of no use if the shield is stronger ten seconds from now. Remember, in order for this shield to be effective in combat, it has to absorb the weapon blast and then use that energy to reinforce itself before the weapon blast finishes hitting it - this is likely beyond the shield's capability.

[AdamTM]

This contradicts the source that you gave: fusion provides only about eight times as much energy per kilogram than fission (at least in bombs or fast breeder reactors). However, it is worth noting that the particles used in fission (U-238 atoms) are about 100 times as massive as the particles used in fusion. Therefore, you actually get far less energy per particle from fusion.


Note: matter-antimatter reactors do not convert anything into energy. The energy is already there, stored in the mass of the material - this is call "rest energy." All that matter-antimatter reactors do is convert rest energy into kinetic energy and light.



Point of fact: the "burning" hydrogen is in the core of the star. The Destiny never approaches that.

It, instead, travels through the untouched hydrogen in the upper levels of the star.


Therefore, it is more like going to a petrol station during a very hot summer day, rather than through a burning station.



We have already seen such a shield in "Beachhead."

Moreover, such a shield would not, in fact, be immune to weaponry. Why? Because the shield would not be able to reinforce itself quickly enough to prevent damage: if it is being hit by a weapon blast right now, it is of no use if the shield is stronger ten seconds from now. Remember, in order for this shield to be effective in combat, it has to absorb the weapon blast and then use that energy to reinforce itself before the weapon blast finishes hitting it - this is likely beyond the shield's capability.

a. yes the source says the energy-density is 8 times higher, my bad

b. i know AM generators dont "convert" i used the term loosely to describe it makes energy from mass.

c. ok, burning not right as an analogy then, but your hot sunny day doesnt cut it either. Except if the hot sunny day is made out of fuel that you need to dip into. How about boiling fuel then, just under its ignition-temp being sucked into the fire right next to it? Its still silly.

d. it would sustain itself nicely, as someone in this thread already said: CAPACITORS
If you are right, your point proves mine in return: if the destiny would have such a shield, the generators would still need to reinforce the shield before it goes skinny-dipping into the star, making the whole refueling-procedure very energy-inefficient.

[thekillman]

it would sustain itself nicely, as someone in this thread already said: CAPACITORS
If you are right, your point proves mine in return: if the destiny would have such a shield, the generators would still need to reinforce the shield before it goes skinny-dipping into the star, making the whole refueling-procedure very energy-inefficient.

the sun itself reinforces the shield. a weapon would reinforce the shield after the hit, thus making the re-inforcement useless.

[AdamTM]

the sun itself reinforces the shield. a weapon would reinforce the shield after the hit, thus making the re-inforcement useless.

This doesnt make any sense.
The sun needs to reinforce the shield before it would come in contact with the shield.

[Quadhelix]

c. ok, burning not right as an analogy then, but your hot sunny day doesnt cut it either. Except if the hot sunny day is made out of fuel that you need to dip into. How about boiling fuel then, just under its ignition-temp being sucked into the fire right next to it? Its still silly.

"Silly" doesn't mean that there are any alternatives. If the Destiny were not to refuel in stars, how else could it refuel?

First, you have to consider the fact that it probably cannot refuel in FTL. This is because doing so would require projecting a magnetic field ahead of the ship. Magnetic fields are "carried" by photons, which travel at the speed of light. However, the ship is traveling faster than light.

It could, of course, gather fusion fuel from gas giants, but this shares a number of problems with "star diving."

d. it would sustain itself nicely, as someone in this thread already said: CAPACITORS

That would be great for subsequent shots, but not the first shot. Also, that assumes that energy can flow from the shield to the ship - which might not be a valid assumption.

If you are right, your point proves mine in return: if the destiny would have such a shield, the generators would still need to reinforce the shield before it goes skinny-dipping into the star, making the whole refueling-procedure very energy-inefficient.

Again, how else is it going to refuel?

[mirdin1992]

On the shield thing I would imagine its a action/reaction kind of thing the lag between the shield draining the power and it using it is probably nonexistent or so small no one cares.

P.S. Who said that it could drain it I don't know but, I don't think it can maintain itself only from the power hitting it and protect the ship itself, there must be energy loss or it would be impenetrable. Also I would guess it can drain certain types of energy better than others.

[thekillman]

This doesnt make any sense.
The sun needs to reinforce the shield before it would come in contact with the shield.

that's why the ship FLIES towards the sun, and doesn't drop out in the photosphere.

it starts at an AU distance. the solar wind is weak, the shield is sustained by the destiny's reactors. we get closer. the shield gets a weak boost from the sun. the closer we get, the stronger the boost becomes. the power cycle (sun hits shield -> shield gets power-> shield is sustained->sun hits shield->shield gets power)
ensures that the shield stays on at all times. we know [electricity->shield generator->shield->force]. therefore, the alternative is possible. [force (hits)-> shield->shieldgenerator (generates)-> electricity].

see it as a probe. the probe has solar panels. the solar panels power the shield. the shield blocks the radiation and pressure. the solar panels, for the sake of clarity, do not break down from material problems. there's a battery for the shield too.

the probe is far from the sun. the battery maintains the shield. we get closer. more power from the solar panels. the panels power the shield. we get closer and closer. more power from the panels, a stronger shield, more pressure on the shield.

the net gain for destiny comes from the actual refueling by scooping up plasma.



also, when in the sun, the energy generated by the shield can be put into the gate. however, we got confirmation from Earth that when you drain too much, the shield gets weaker and can even collapse.


analogous is.... i don't know. the fuel station is a bad one. at best, i can say, analogous is needing fuel that has to be at several thousand degrees before you can burn it. instead of having to manually heat it, the sun already has it hot. thrown it in fusion reactors with the very same shield as the one covering Destiny, and well, you have easy fuel. when in the sun, the Destiny refills it's generators. i think that some of us are right: supercapacitors are powered by the fusion reactors. as the Destiny leaves the star, the fusion reactors keep burning, and when they're depleted, the remaining stuff is cooled down, the heat used for power, and finally the waste is pumped to the engines as propellant.

also, why refuel in stars? no idea. but stars are easy to find. planets with the right composition are not. one wrong pick and the ship is dead in the water. also, the feedback system makes solar refuel as easy as dipping into a gas giant.


as to why the destiny isn't invincible: a bolt (a beam WOULD be largely ineffective) hits. as the bolt has hit the shield, (some) of the energy is returned. then, the shield is stonger. then, it weakens, and then, the next bolt hits.

also, the feedback is DIRECT, and other types of weapons would have full effect, since it's designed for plasma, not, say, particle beams.

[Mike.]

We don't know if Destiny uses fusion reactors. It was never specifically said on the show. Just "solar powered". If this is the case it seems very rudimentary, old, not worthy of the Ancients; the gas giant it passed through should have been enough to refuel. For a classic fusion reaction the fuel does not really need to be obtained already heated, we can achieve the required temperatures in our lame "real" experiments. Surely Destiny can do that by itself if it can support such powerful shields.

It has to use some sort of direct energy drain technology (that takes energy out of any medium and stores it for later use (like how naquadah generators don't need steam and huge spinning turbines to run - no, fission does not release neatly ordered electrons, but large amounts of heat and all kinds of radiation - also how stargates can be powered by pretty much anything, many times without clear contact or large specialized mechanisms). Those "scoops" expose some sort of superconductors (not as we know them) that tap the raw energy of a complete sun. There's obviously a range limit so that's why it needs to get so close.

This fits with the other power generation technologies we've seen on the show and what the Ancients tend to build. They've always done this - obtain power from another energetic medium.
Going chronologically:
phase 1: directly draining power from a highly energetic medium: a sun
phase 2: getting zero point energy from an artificially created pocket of space (enclosed in a ZPM) until entropy reaches maximum
phase 3: getting zero point energy from our own universe (project Arcturus) - at this point the energy density is the lowest.