Gatephysics - 2 things that bother me

[Control_Chair]

Your point being? I don't really expect writers to understand how quantum storage works. It does work on subatomic level, though, using either electron excitation states, or nuclear spins.

So I meant to say that the transcript supports the theory of storgage on the subatomic-quantum levels but forgot to post that bit

[Control_Chair]

Your point being? I don't really expect writers to understand how quantum storage works. It does work on subatomic level, though, using either electron excitation states, or nuclear spins.

So I meant to say that the transcript supports the theory of storage on the subatomic-quantum levels but forgot to post that bit

[K^2]

Hmm... Personally, I choose to set canon filter to cut off any "physics" explanations of what's going on. If I try to follow these, it tends to cause one of my eyebrows to go way above the other, and that makes my whole face ache.

[Control_Chair]

Hmm... Personally, I choose to set canon filter to cut off any "physics" explanations of what's going on. If I try to follow these, it tends to cause one of my eyebrows to go way above the other, and that makes my whole face ache.

Point taken

[Coremae]

as for the stargate event horizon bulging, ITS SCIFI and TPTB prob thought oh that'll look cool etc many thing are epicly stupid in SG thats just the way it is im afraid.

maybe i should read every post in case some one answered, but because i'm lazy, i'm just going to say gravitons, since, in the new theory of big booms in spacial whatsit, it's hypothesized, that gravitons would be the only particle capable of crossing all forms of spacial vortexes and existential dimensional branes. Thus, the graviton particles radiating from the forming black hole causes the whirlpool appearance.

[K^2]

Where do you get this nonsense from?

[Coremae]

Where do you get this nonsense from?

Gravitons? I'd explain but it'll take too much time and effort, and seeing as how I'm lazy, and researching all of this stuff originally took a very long time, I found this recently which I wish existed before I gave my self brain shock reading theoretical monkey crap, but here it is Graviton

[Quadhelix]

Graviton

K^2 knows what gravitons are: other than the exact spin (2), that video didn't tell me much that I didn't already know, and K^2 is far more knowledgeable than I.

However, your use of gravitons to explain the "whirlpool" effect of the Stargate in "A Matter of Time" does not address the issue at hand. Gravitons are just force-carriers for gravity, the way that photons carry the electric and magnetic forces; they don't address the issue of the fact that the "whirlpool" shape implies that the wormhole is behind the Stargate, which makes no sense.

[Coremae]

K^2 knows what gravitons are: other than the exact spin (2), that video didn't tell me much that I didn't already know, and K^2 is far more knowledgeable than I.

However, your use of gravitons to explain the "whirlpool" effect of the Stargate in "A Matter of Time" does not address the issue at hand. Gravitons are just force-carriers for gravity, the way that photons carry the electric and magnetic forces; they don't address the issue of the fact that the "whirlpool" shape implies that the wormhole is behind the Stargate, which makes no sense.

theoretical physics is a lot like the kid's game; "I wonder what would happen." And then throw a few make believe points in there and we have ourselves a shindig. Gravitons carries gravity, okay then, do they continually carry gravity or do some of them don't make it through the event horizon? Or maybe, only so many of them can make it through the event horizon and some of them unwittingly distorts the event horizon. Seeing as how the wormhole is essentially a path through subspace, maybe the gravitons effect the event horizon by expanding it beyond it's natural limits and the ripple from the expansion of this wormhole causes the event horizon to distort essentially in the wrong way.

[Quadhelix]

theoretical physics is a lot like the kid's game; "I wonder what would happen." And then throw a few make believe points in there and we have ourselves a shindig.

Yes, but all of these "what ifs" generally have some reason behind them.

Gravitons carries gravity, okay then, do they continually carry gravity or do some of them don't make it through the event horizon? Or maybe, only so many of them can make it through the event horizon and some of them unwittingly distorts the event horizon.

Except that the wormhole is at the center of the event horizon, so any gravitational distortion of the event horizon should have still kept it in a plane.

Seeing as how the wormhole is essentially a path through subspace, maybe the gravitons effect the event horizon by expanding it beyond it's natural limits and the ripple from the expansion of this wormhole causes the event horizon to distort essentially in the wrong way.

Gravitons are force-carriers of gravity, and therefore their behavior must be consistent with that of gravity. This, however, is not the behavior observed in "A Matter of Time"

[K^2]

theoretical physics is a lot like the kid's game; "I wonder what would happen." And then throw a few make believe points in there and we have ourselves a shindig. Gravitons carries gravity, okay then, do they continually carry gravity or do some of them don't make it through the event horizon? Or maybe, only so many of them can make it through the event horizon and some of them unwittingly distorts the event horizon. Seeing as how the wormhole is essentially a path through subspace, maybe the gravitons effect the event horizon by expanding it beyond it's natural limits and the ripple from the expansion of this wormhole causes the event horizon to distort essentially in the wrong way.

Let me start by saying that your idea of what theoretical physics is like is completely off.

Gravitons are gauge bosons. Gauge bosons are quasi-particles you get when you perform second quantization of a field. Quantization of electromagnetic field yields photons. Quantization of vibrations in a crystal lattice yields phonons. When you second-quantize gravity, you end up with a graviton.

Just like any gauge boson, a graviton that carries gravitational interaction is a virtual one. It cannot be absorbed or interacted with, as that would violate conservation laws. So asking what happens if the graviton doesn't make it across is silly. If there is a field, there is graviton exchange, and that graviton exchange cannot be interrupted. Only gauge bosons carrying an excitation in the field can be detected. Light is an excitation in electromagnetic wave, and so we can detect photons in it and interact with them. To interact with gravitons, there has to be an actual gravitational wave.

But in either case, idea that event horizon interacts with something is fairly absurd on its own. Event horizon is simply a location in space-time where the metric becomes singular. Schwarzschild metric, for example, becomes singular at R=2GM/c². That's where event horizon of a black hole is located. And while presence of a black hole near a wormhole might do some strange things to the metric, resulting in change of the event horizon geometry, this has nothing to do with gravitons.

[Mike.]

In that episode Carter specifically said that the laws of physics worked differently than what we were expecting. This means that we can't apply our real theories to the show. Something along the lines of "they have no idea what they're doing so they're just going to blow it up" which was why it was so important to find an alternative route - making the wormhole jump.

There can be two explanations:
1. The puddle was distorted on the other side so the effect was replicated here; so that anyone going through the wormhole would not get ripped apart by the different shape of the puddle on rematerialization i.e. another safety feature. Or maybe the shape just got duplicated regardless of that .
2. The effect was added for a more dramatic scene. It only needs to look pretty. If the show can do no wrong - explanation number 1 is true.

BTW we might be getting out facts distorted (no pun intended ), are we talking about the event horizon of the black hole? The singularity within it ? I think the question was about the stargate's puddle.

[Coremae]

Let me start by saying that your idea of what theoretical physics is like is completely off.

Gravitons are gauge bosons. Gauge bosons are quasi-particles you get when you perform second quantization of a field. Quantization of electromagnetic field yields photons. Quantization of vibrations in a crystal lattice yields phonons. When you second-quantize gravity, you end up with a graviton.

Just like any gauge boson, a graviton that carries gravitational interaction is a virtual one. It cannot be absorbed or interacted with, as that would violate conservation laws. So asking what happens if the graviton doesn't make it across is silly. If there is a field, there is graviton exchange, and that graviton exchange cannot be interrupted. Only gauge bosons carrying an excitation in the field can be detected. Light is an excitation in electromagnetic wave, and so we can detect photons in it and interact with them. To interact with gravitons, there has to be an actual gravitational wave.

But in either case, idea that event horizon interacts with something is fairly absurd on its own. Event horizon is simply a location in space-time where the metric becomes singular. Schwarzschild metric, for example, becomes singular at R=2GM/c². That's where event horizon of a black hole is located. And while presence of a black hole near a wormhole might do some strange things to the metric, resulting in change of the event horizon geometry, this has nothing to do with gravitons.

Gauge bosons? Not going to do it, I was tempted to read about the Gauge Bosons again, but no, I'll just follow your explanation and build from there. Good explanation by the way, I should have just asked what the hells up with particles here on the forum, instead of spending hours and hours reading Wikipedia(an no it didn't take hours to read, just hours to understand because ADHD makes everything a real task+ an uncanny ability to get bored fairly quickly, not to mention the ho-hum behavior induced by perpetual bouts of depression, not to mention I'm incredibly lazy)


So what you're saying is, Gravitons are 'globules of being' (a virtual globule the size of something but smaller than anything) which carries gravity any and every where it can, or are gravitons the result of the gravitational wave?

Globules of being is me being a smart @$$ because if a bunch of pencil pushing debutantes could pull terms out of their buttocks, then so can I So a globule of being is a particle that does something, so it's a 'globule of being', where as a 'globule of doing' is another type of globule that has no other purpose until I find one for them.

You're saying that gravitons can't change the shape of the event horizon because they're reactions not causes. Okay, I get that, so let's move onto theory 2. Why is the wormhole the size it is?
And why isn't it bigger, Or smaller? Could it be that the Wormhole can actually be a lot bigger than it is, but due to some funky bit of pseudo-science the ancients compressed it into the size it is, or maybe not---but let's just say that's the case, wouldn't the extreme stream of gravitational waves caused by a black hole no less, but whatever the case the wormhole is filled with what would be far more gravitational particles than can fit into an ittiy bitty tunnel. So let's say the gravitational wave is coming in too quickly, and like forcing too much water into a hose, or straw, the amount of stuff trying to re-materialize exceeds the gate's capabilities and the distorted event horizon tries to compensate by bulging.


edit:thanks again

[Quadhelix]

But in either case, idea that event horizon interacts with something is fairly absurd on its own. Event horizon is simply a location in space-time where the metric becomes singular. Schwarzschild metric, for example, becomes singular at R=2GM/c². That's where event horizon of a black hole is located. And while presence of a black hole near a wormhole might do some strange things to the metric, resulting in change of the event horizon geometry, this has nothing to do with gravitons.

K^2, you need to learn the habit of explaining what your terms mean. For example, the term "metric" probably won't mean much to anyone who hasn't taken a course on General Relativity or differential geometry: just about everything else assumes a metric of diag[1,1,1]. Yes, I know (now) that Special Relativity is an exception, using either diag[1,-1,-1,-1] or diag[-1,1,1,1], but that either wasn't really explained when I first learned it, or little enough emphasis was placed on it that I missed it.

So what you're saying is, Gravitons are 'globules of being' (a virtual globule the size of something but smaller than anything) which carries gravity any and every where it can, or are gravitons the result of the gravitational wave?

Incorrect: to the best of our ability to determine, gravitons have no size at all. The same is apparently true of all other elementary particles, such as electrons, photons, and quarks.

Globules of being is me being a smart @$$ because if a bunch of pencil pushing debutantes could pull terms out of their buttocks, then so can I

Well they can't, so neither can you: Bosons get their name from the fact that they obey the Bose-Einstein statistical model, just as Fermions obey the Fermi-Dirac model.

"Force-carrying" particles are called Gauge Bosons because they are bosons and are related to the "gauge" of the force that they carry. I'm pretty sure that K^2 could explain gauges better than I could, but from what I know, the gauge of a force is an alteration to the Potential of the force that is independent of the sources that produce that Potential and that does not affect the field of that force.

So a globule of being is a particle that does something, so it's a 'globule of being', where as a 'globule of doing' is another type of globule that has no other purpose until I find one for them.

Shouldn't the "globules of doing" be the ones that do something?

And why isn't it bigger, Or smaller? Could it be that the Wormhole can actually be a lot bigger than it is, but due to some funky bit of pseudo-science the ancients compressed it into the size it is, or maybe not---but let's just say that's the case,

The general consensus is that the actual wormhole is microscopic: the amount of energy required to make a wormhole even a millimeter across would be absolutely astronomical.

wouldn't the extreme stream of gravitational waves caused by a black hole no less

A static black hole would not cause gravitational waves, just as a boat sitting still on a pond would not produce a wake. Black holes do, of course, produce very strong gravitational fields, but not gravitational waves.

but whatever the case the wormhole is filled with what would be far more gravitational particles than can fit into an ittiy bitty tunnel.

Gravitons are a bosons, meaning that they obey the Bose-Einstein statistics, meaning that they can "stack" one on top of the other. Space would not be an issue.

[Dex Luther]

Ok, there are 2 things that i still cant wrap my head around.

First the more interesting one.
For example, when you go through the gate, or put your hand in to hold it open (SGU Air2 etc.), shouldnt you feel your hand being CUT OFF?

I understand that the process of dematerializing your body is probably very quick and painless, but if you hold your hand in, the hand goes to the buffer, its not longer attached to your arm.
So you should feel it being absent.
Actually it should feel incredibly painful if you hold a piece of your body into the Stargate, its the same as getting it sliced off, continuously. I don't see how this can be painless except if the Stargate is actually intelligent enough to feed your brain fake signals from your hand in the buffer.

Any official explanation for this?

I remember hearing somewhere (SG1 or SGA) that the gate doesn't actually start dematerializing an object until it has completely passed through the event horizon (which is why Kowalzki's head wasn't cut open in 'enemy within'). Non living objects might be an exception which is why a staff weapon can be seen having it's end cut off in 'Point of View'.

While on the subject of Gatephysics, can anyone explain to me how in SG1 they receive GDO codes BEFORE the gates connect?