Satellite defence system for Earth

[comperius]

No no, that Asgard know how to handle black holes and stars I concluded from S8 New order part I think. But if you have basics in how to make sun explode, you must know how to prevent it. At last in theory

[thekillman]

we have atlantis. atlantis can track ships from far away. the asgard can calculate the point of exit. there is no range in space.

combine this.


a ship approaches, we calculate it's exit point, the sattelites align and fire ahead, at the exiting spot. now, because of the perfect timing, the ship drops out of hyperspace only to be hit by multiple APBW strikes. and it's destroyed

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

No no, that Asgard know how to handle black holes and stars I concluded from S8 New order part I think. But if you have basics in how to make sun explode, you must know how to prevent it. At last in theory

Where exactly in New Order or any Stargate episode for that matter has it been stated that the Asgard can deal with black holes or reverse a Super Nova?
Perhaps the Asgard could temporarily contain a Star that's just gone Super Nova inside of a Time Dilation Field, but that wouldn't be dealing with the problem, with that you'd just be postponing the Star's material from destroying the solar system.

Do we know what kind of effect using a TDF to encase just a Star would have on the rest of the Solar System?

Besides somehow replacing the matter and not adding to much I don't see how you could reverse something like what happened in Exodus.

we have atlantis. atlantis can track ships from far away. the asgard can calculate the point of exit. there is no range in space.

combine this.


a ship approaches, we calculate it's exit point, the sattelites align and fire ahead, at the exiting spot. now, because of the perfect timing, the ship drops out of hyperspace only to be hit by multiple APBW strikes. and it's destroyed

With the APBWs you'd need line of sight with the enemy ship(s), if they drop out of hyperspace on the opposite side of the sun and you have no weapons there then you couldn't possibly hit those vessels.
I'm not talking about the side of the sun that is facing Earth, but the other side which we don't see.

Anyway surely over the millions of miles it is to our Star the Asgard's beam weapon fire could decay, after all doesn't a Coronal Mass Ejection get weaker the further it gets from the sun?
If the APB shots have to be shot over millions of miles then by the time they reach our sun they'd be pretty weak, if not completely non-existent.
If that's the case then the simple solutions are you make a few satellites and position them nearer the sun or if Atlantis can still control it's Drones from millions of miles away then you fire the Drones long before the ship(s) exists hyperspace.

[thekillman]

a coronal mass ejection gets weaker due to blooming. essentially the plasma pushes itself apart. seeing as SG energy weapons dont disintegrate seconds after firing, this effect is clearly not as present. so it could be done.

but as i said, your tactic requires a smart enemy, and well that's the last thing we'll see in stargate

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

a coronal mass ejection gets weaker due to blooming. essentially the plasma pushes itself apart. seeing as SG energy weapons dont disintegrate seconds after firing, this effect is clearly not as present. so it could be done.

A CME is a lot larger than an APBW shot, it would take a long time for the shot to reach it's target if it's fired from Earth and has to reach an enemy ship near to the star.
If SG weapons can be fired over millions of miles from their target then we would have seen that happen on the show, but we haven't so we can't assume they could.

but as i said, your tactic requires a smart enemy, and well that's the last thing we'll see in stargate

It doesn't require much intelligence, the Wraith have thrown asteroids towards Lantia to take out the Naqueda Nuclear mines in the Siege part 2 so it's not that far fetched that we could see some enemy bypass any defenses we decide to put in place and use a stargate in that way.

[Buba uognarf]

a coronal mass ejection gets weaker due to blooming. essentially the plasma pushes itself apart. seeing as SG energy weapons dont disintegrate seconds after firing, this effect is clearly not as present. so it could be done.

but as i said, your tactic requires a smart enemy, and well that's the last thing we'll see in stargate

Just because an APBW doesn't push itself apart at the ranges observed so far doesn't mean it wouldn't at AU like ranges. Also detecting when a ship is coming and when its going to decide to drop out of hyperspace are two different things.

[thekillman]

the ancients could do the first, the asgard could do the second. we have atlantis and the Core. IE, it can be done. besides, a ship can not just "decide" when it drops out. if the deadalus remains at full speed when dropping out, just one second is the difference between sol and proxima centauri. milliseconds would still be massive amounts of space, you'd need atomic clocks and even then you'd need superprecise timing. its not that easy.

[Buba uognarf]

the ancients could do the first, the asgard could do the second. we have atlantis and the Core. IE, it can be done. besides, a ship can not just "decide" when it drops out. if the deadalus remains at full speed when dropping out, just one second is the difference between sol and proxima centauri. milliseconds would still be massive amounts of space, you'd need atomic clocks and even then you'd need superprecise timing. its not that easy.

How can the Asgard detect where a ship is going to decide to drop out of hyperspace? Its up to the crew to decide when they want to drop out of hyperspace the Asgard have no way of knowing what is only in the minds of the crew. As you said a split second early or late and the ship is on the other side of the planet away from the satellites.

[thekillman]

they can. "New Order".

with time the precision increases.

as i said, you're talking such insane speeds, you have to slow down or dropping out is just too dangerous

[Buba uognarf]

they can. "New Order".

with time the precision increases.

as i said, you're talking such insane speeds, you have to slow down or dropping out is just too dangerous

A likely drop out point can be predicted but there's no way to know for sure.

The speed in hyperspace is irrelevent once you enter normal space, sure we've seen on occasion a ship come of hyperspace at very high speeds before slowing down but there's never been any dialogue (that I remember) to suggest you have down before exit.

[stargater1990]

The point is a defense grid of some kind doesn't make 304 or hyperdrive capable fleet unnecessary.
The defense grid just gives you a cheaper and faster to implement option for defending your home than building a fleet dedicated to planetary defense.

Actually here in this thread I never said to build both a sat and cannon system, I've been saying either sats or cannons, I don't think you'd need both.

I think the current rate at which we can make ships would work fine with any home based defense system we can make within a few years.

Those were observations on my part.
My point is where's the proof the Asgard can even match that kind of production rate?
What evidence do we have that they could produce say dozens of O'Neills in the peace time during Unnatural Selection and New Order?

The very fact that extra skilled people will be needed over whoever is already in the military well that in itself would be quite a few million at least per ship, say $60,000 per year, per person, times by 200=$12.000,000 per ship, per year, times that by 40 in the final year once all ships are made, crewed and it's gonna cost $480,000,000 per each year all of the ship's are in service, next to probably a few thousand dollars for each satellite or cannon's maintenance per year, maybe a few million the costs of a fleet are astronomical when compared to just the under estimated salaries of all those men and women in service at once.

first of all, building this fleet isint for the sole purpose of defending earth. its partly to have the ability to attack outside of our solar system in a large overpowering force but not having to wait 30 years to be able to do that.

now the asgard made roughly 6 oniell sized ships in about 4 years. and when you look at this picture http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...bum=131&pos=97 from the episode unnatural selection it clearly shows that an oniell is at least 8 times the size of the promethius. now if that is true, then an oniel is about 4 times the size of a 304 since a 304 is proboly twice as big as the promethius. now this means that since they can make 6 oniells in 4 years at war time lets say that they can only make half that at peace time meaning they can make 0.75 ships per year during peacetime which means they could make 3 304s per year. and at a production rate of 3 per year, in 10 years we would have 30 304s on top of the 5 we already have. this production rate sounds reasonable and is backed by facts from the show.

and the cost of opperating 40 304s would be split up between the 5 nations represented in the episode "disclosure" so really, each nation only has to worry about supporting 8 304s and their crew of 1600 people. and when you add that up it come out to 96 million to support 8 304 crew given each of them earns a salary of 60,000 a year. i dont think 96 million per year per country for what this fleet will be able to do is all that much considering the 304 program in the us has a budget of atleast 4.9 billion since the senate app. commitee reduced the SGC budget to 30% of 7 billion.

and if each nation opperated only 4 of its 8 304s and kept the remaining 304s in their underground hangars it would leave a fleet of 20 ships on earth at all times to defend the planet and 20 ships free to roam the galaxy carrying out various missions. furthermore, as long as each of the 8 crews served on their ship at least 6 months a year they would stay trained and efficient at what they do and once they are really good at what they do they could take longer times of like say a year but the inportant thing is to keep them all ready for immediate deployment within a few hours notice.

and really when you think about it, it dosent really have to be a fleet of 40 ships, 20 would work just as good but i like the idea of having 40 ships better and its still possible.

[thekillman]

put it that way and yes, it's possible. but is it probable?


when you have 40 ships, it's a waste of the investment to keep them at earth. however, as each WILL require maintenance, refuel and re-crew every now and then, i would add two things:


-give each 304 a stargate (MW ships a MW gate, PG ships a PG gate. use the leftovers from the gate bridge)

-at all times, at least 2 304's are at earth for maintenance, refuel, repair, etc. because it's a waste of power to constantly let 304's move between MW and Pg, the stargates are used for that.


also, build a permanent base in PG for 304 refuel (possibly by gate).

this would make quite a watertight defence. assuming 4-6 304's are used in Pg and the rest is in the MW supporting SG teams and helping civelisations.

because of this, a 304 can be recalled faster and with greater ease, thus removing the need for "my" system.




however, i doubt your plan of asgard construction measures can be implemented in just one year. most components are to be made by the Core which is also buisy supplying the APBW's and such.


my plan is for an early earth, yours for a later earth

[Saquist]

Wouldn't a fleet be better served obtaining resources for Earth's defense?
The Taur'i are new to the Galaxy, with no Naquada on Earth it makes it imparitive to find a secondary Planet to establish extensive facilities for such a fleet.

By the Way, the Stargate program really does need to come out to the public.

[thekillman]

we already have several naquahdah mines.

also living on a planet that essentially is a bomb.... nah thanks

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

first of all, building this fleet isint for the sole purpose of defending earth. its partly to have the ability to attack outside of our solar system in a large overpowering force but not having to wait 30 years to be able to do that.

Fair enough, planetary defense could however include pre-emptive strikes, or taking out a threat long before it's anywhere near Earth coz you're stopping a threat from harming our homeworld.
I'm in no way apposed to us increasing our production capacities, but I think the best and most likely way that's gonna happen is to simply make a few more regular shipyards like the one(s) Earth already has, which I'd imagine will eventually happen over time anyway and also increase resource production in line with this (as I think you mentioned before), probably just by creating more mining sites or using the beaming tech to refine materials as you extract them.

now the asgard made roughly 6 oniell sized ships in about 4 years. and when you look at this picture http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...bum=131&pos=97 from the episode unnatural selection it clearly shows that an oniell is at least 8 times the size of the promethius.

I already said that a 303 is likely about a tenth the size of an O'Neill from viewing that pic, you were saying a 304 is a tenth of an O'Neill, so you realised the sizing was wrong OK.

now if that is true, then an oniel is about 4 times the size of a 304 since a 304 is proboly twice as big as the promethius.

Using what measurements or comparisons?

now this means that since they can make 6 oniells in 4 years at war time lets say that they can only make half that at peace time meaning they can make 0.75 ships per year during peacetime which means they could make 3 304s per year. and at a production rate of 3 per year, in 10 years we would have 30 304s on top of the 5 we already have. this production rate sounds reasonable and is backed by facts from the show.

How did you reach that conclusion, that they could make that many ships, in that amount of time? I don't necessarily think it's wrong, but you've not compared any sources so I don't see how you can come up with an end answer.
My issue with all this is that I believe you think this can all be made from one shipyard.
I think the better option would be to simply make more shipyards like the ones we already have, design a smaller class of ship that can be made much quicker, get more resources and used for defense/attack purposes alongside the larger 304s.
Smaller ships could have less crew and thus costs of opperating them would be cheaper.

and the cost of opperating 40 304s would be split up between the 5 nations represented in the episode "disclosure" so really, each nation only has to worry about supporting 8 304s and their crew of 1600 people. and when you add that up it come out to 96 million to support 8 304 crew given each of them earns a salary of 60,000 a year. i dont think 96 million per year per country for what this fleet will be able to do is all that much considering the 304 program in the us has a budget of atleast 4.9 billion since the senate app. commitee reduced the SGC budget to 30% of 7 billion.

Good points, but that still doesn't trump cheap sats or cannons, alongside perhaps some smaller attack/defense ships for cost.
The IOA is always gonna go for the cheaper option especially if it doesn't risk the skilled people in deep space combat and really all that's needed for taking out threats before they get to Earth is a means to deliver the APBWs in some quick strike fashion ASAP, small ships could do that and be made in larger numbers too, although they may not be as strong as a 304 (they could be since they'd have to use the same Asgard shield tech and would likely require less energy output to provide power to shield a smaller area than a 304 has to) they'd have numbers on their side too.

and if each nation opperated only 4 of its 8 304s and kept the remaining 304s in their underground hangars it would leave a fleet of 20 ships on earth at all times to defend the planet and 20 ships free to roam the galaxy carrying out various missions. furthermore, as long as each of the 8 crews served on their ship at least 6 months a year they would stay trained and efficient at what they do and once they are really good at what they do they could take longer times of like say a year but the inportant thing is to keep them all ready for immediate deployment within a few hours notice.

and really when you think about it, it dosent really have to be a fleet of 40 ships, 20 would work just as good but i like the idea of having 40 ships better and its still possible.

I'm not really now disputing Earth being able to make that many ships, I just don't think they can come out of one facility at that rate, a few more shipyards, greater resource production and yeah of course it's possible, perhaps could build more than the 40 in 10 years if we make more than 4 new shipyards and set things in motion.
Cost is still an issue though, ships with smaller crews like I've mentioned above would be better than 304s IMO for a quick to implement fleet and you may be able to make a much larger fleet than even the 40 you want if jyou added a whole bunch of new, regular shipyards.
Of course Asgard tech could potentially make things go much quicker if it's not already being used in the stages of ship building.

Now that's all been dealt with, since the topic is satellites for defense perhaps we should get back to how sats can be implemented for Earth's defense needs.