Satellite defence system for Earth

[comperius]

So could APBW installed next to SGC, Area 51 and buildings like that hit a ship in space? Or do we need some other technology for that? because I think that we need fast solutions, and that 6 huge satelites can be installed in space for planetary defence.

[Crazy Tom]

that's effective range.

well it depends. the oddy had shoot-hit beams, but the Deadalus and Apollo have shoot-fly-hit beams (in BAMSR) yet in EATG the beam nigh-instantly hits

Let's just call it range to reduce confusion.

The range is very short, those beams move so slow a few hundred meters at most.

[thekillman]

as i said, the Unending and EATG beams were insta-hit

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

im not talking about doing all of this overnight, obviously it would take maybe 5 to 10 years to build roughly 40 ships or perhaps more or maybe a little less since 304s are really powerful.

I knew you weren't, neither would a home based defense network be completed over night, but it could likely be completed within a few years.
I believe it currently takes 2 years to put out 2 304s, so unless Earth builds another 4 ship yards they're not gonna have the 40 ships in 10 years.

What does a 304's power have to do with Earth's building capacities?
Or do you mean those 304s are likely to still be around in 10 years times coz they're a powerful vessel?
A couple could be lost over the years if we have to try and stop a Wraith fleet at some point or a future enemy gets bad ideas.

however, thus far we have yet to actually use asgard technology in the construction of 304s and i think that once we do, it would dramatically increase our ship output and cost to make a ship. i mean think of it this way, if the asgard could build a fleet of oniells in a matter of years and a single oniell is at least 10, if not more, times the size of a 304 then id say it would be very easy to make 40 ships in 5 to 10 years and at proboly a quarter of the cost that it would at our current rate.

We don't know exactly what technologies go into the construction of Earth based Human vessels, coz that's never been dealt with on the show, not even when we saw Prometheus in the hanger, although back then it's IMO pretty much a certainty that no Asgard methods were employed, we don't have a clue what goes into making a 304.
We also have no clue about how long it took the Asgard to make O'Neills, we were never told just how many ships they had produced between Unnatural Selection and New Order, since they only had 6 to spare to intercept the Replicator Cruiser it's possible they only had a few out in the field or that was all they had after 2 and a bit years of relative safety from the Replicators as they'd want to save their home world at all costs.
As far as the O'Neill's size compared to a 304 goes I personally don't think they're 10 times the size of a 304, maybe a little larger than a 304, but not by that much considering the size of Prometheus compared to an O'Neill, maybe that was a 10th of an O'Neill and 304s could be two or even 3 times the size of a 303, which would put the O'Neills at maybe 1.5 times the size of a 304 possibly twice that at a stretch.

and when you take into consideration roughly a year of R&D in order to build a prototype asgard construction yard, then maybe 6 months of construction and at a cost of maybe 2 to 3 billion, proboly no mare than it cost to build a 304, then 3 years from now we could have 15 304s ready for deployment at the most and thinking conservatively maybe 12. and from then on be pumping out roughly 8 to 10 a year.

This is all assuming you know the production rates of Asgard ship yards, which we've never been told.

why waste time building a satalite network when 304s would basically be satalites except 10 times better. and then have the infrastructure in place to begin construction of a big fleet of ships.

Coz you'd have a permanent home based defense, which as thekillman said wouldn't leave an expensive crew, who you have to find, recruit, then train and leave bored twiddling their thumbs until the next threat comes along.

Who says a ship like a 304 would definitely be better than a satellite network or a cannon system at defending the planet for that matter?
Something that's smaller than a 304 is gonna require less power to shield, probably be more maneuverable (if it's a satellite) than a 304 but just as powerful and equally or better suited for removing a threat from the Earth's orbit.

When you've got a good foundation at home (your planetary defense), then you're safe to put all your efforts into making more ships, which you can then use to go out and annoy threats like the Wraith with, but be safe in the knowledge that you can always defend yourself at home if they come and attack .

and in terms of cost, i would say that after the initial investment in building asgard infrasturcture on both earth to build the ships and on our offworld mining planets to increase the supply of raw materials to match production needs, i would say that the whole venture would cost a total of no more than 130 billion over the course of the next decade and that really a gross over estimation since thats making each 304 cost 3 billion when in fact once you have the asgard facility in place, a 304 will only cost as much as the labor to basically push the buttons because asgard equipment cant be very physically oriented given their limited physical capabilities.

Enough sats or cannons to cover Earth from most threats would probably cost a fraction of that 130 billion and we'd have a defense faster than it takes to make those ships.
The ships you could still make alongside the defense network.

Your timings are all dependent on us using Asgard technologies, which while effective could be intensely power hungry if you bare in mind that Odyssey had both a ZPM and an Asgard power source to use the Matter Converters and they depleted those with 50 years maintaining a TDF, ship's systems and making run of the mill things for 5 people, that's not using the Asgard tech to produce large ship components from raw materials.

and as for the crews, it will be up to the country that the ships go to to train their crews and cover the opperating costs but as ive said before, the cost to opperate the 304s isint very much since all your buying is food, medical supplies, and weapons.

We've never been told the costs of operating the 304's crews so we can't possibly know how much they'd cost to keep in service, food and supplies is one thing, but their salaries could each be huge considering they'd have to be very skilled individuals.

basically i think our time would be better spent building the afore mentioned infrastructure and ships and that building satalites would be a waste of time because both of the ideas are really one or the other kind of things and that having both is really overkill and a waste of time and resources and that we either build a large fleet of ships to protect earth and oversee our intrests in the reast of this galaxy, or we build the satalite network and build maybe 10 ships to oversee our intrests and doing both is just a waste.

The two things namely a home defense net and extra ships are most certainly not mutually exclusive, you build your defense tech, maybe up the number of ship yards you have by a couple and you'd be sorted.
I've heard it said that in war there's no such thing as overkill, so assuming we've got the resources to do both, then we do both.
Doing both of these things simultaneously and that being a waste of time is just your opinion, if doing either the defense net or ships leaves you lacking in an area then you don't do just the one thing.
Having a defense network and the current crop of ships expanded by 2 every two years should be plenty, until Earth decides to put more money into making more ships, which considering they don't appear to be aiming to wipe out the Wraith anytime soon well it's highly unlikely they'll build 40 ships in 5 or 10 years.
Considering after seeing EATG it's highly unlikely our military will even bother doing more than trying to recall ships at a time of need and they'll rely on Atlantis (if it's not returned to Pegasus) to hold off any attack until the ships get home.

and building the 284 satalites needed to create a full defence grid would have cost 80 billion over the course of 2 years and 160 billion over the course of 1 year.(just thought id correct you as asked)

Cheers.
I doubt we'd need that many Asgard beam sats or ground cannons to cover the planet, maybe a couple on either side of the globe would sort things and then perhaps expand at whatever rate we can churn them out until Earth can be covered against a Wraith siege sized fleet or a few of them, which I think is still gonna be pretty cheap.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

What about acuuracy over distance? Target lock range?

Just have a look at my avatar pic, that's what I'm talking about from The Last Man.
The distance seems pretty huge to me and it didn't take long for the shot to hit the Hive.
Asgard pulse weapons would probably be an even faster firing solution, but they aren't as effective against shields as the beam weapons, perhaps there's some middle ground weapon that could be used.


Would a shot fired from the ground into orbit be the same distance as in The Last Man or more than that?
How fast is the Phoenix traveling in that episode?
I think if we look at these things it would give us an idea whether the APBWs would be a viable ground based weapon system.

[Buba uognarf]

Just have a look at my avatar pic, that's what I'm talking about from The Last Man.
The distance seems pretty huge to me and it didn't take long for the shot to hit the Hive.
Asgard pulse weapons would probably be an even faster firing solution, but they aren't as effective against shields as the beam weapons, perhaps there's some middle ground weapon that could be used.


Would a shot fired from the ground into orbit be the same distance as in The Last Man or more than that?
How fast is the Phoenix traveling in that episode?
I think if we look at these things it would give us an idea whether the APBWs would be a viable ground based weapon system.

The distance in your Avatar is actually rather small, its 10's of kilometers which is absolutely nothing in space. A low Earth orbit is 160 - 2,000 km so much greater ranges than what is usually seen in SG and much greater than the observed distance in the Last Man.

Regardless there's no reason why the APBW can't be fired into orbit unless the plasma rapidly disperses at ranges of a few dozen kilometers or more (which would make them poor weapons). TBH no offense but its actually a rather stupid question, if ships like Ha'taks and Hives regularly fire from orbit to the ground then surely the Asgard beams should be able to fire from the ground up. The Tollan Ion canons managed this and the APBW are vastly superior not only that if the APBW didn't have the energy to even overcome the gravity of an Earth like planet they'd be extremely poor weapons.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

The distance in your Avatar is actually rather small, its 10's of kilometers which is absolutely nothing in space. A low Earth orbit is 160 - 2,000 km so much greater ranges than what is usually seen in SG and much greater than the observed distance in the Last Man.

Regardless there's no reason why the APBW can't be fired into orbit unless the plasma rapidly disperses at ranges of a few dozen kilometers or more (which would make them poor weapons).

Cheers for clearing that up Buba.
I didn't think Asgard plasma beam fire was much different to the Tollan's ion cannons in speed, well it doesn't look to dissipate to me over the distances shown.
Asgard pulse fire from the O'Neills seems to be shot out faster than ion cannons in New Order.

If used in a satellite weapon do you think the APBW shots would dissipate if they were fired through the Earth's atmosphere?
I think I'd be OK with using them in a satellite form if their shots couldn't actually hit the ground or pummel any inhabited areas on the planet.

[Buba uognarf]

Cheers for clearing that up Buba.
I didn't think Asgard plasma beam fire was much different to the Tollan's ion cannons in speed, well it doesn't look to dissipate to me over the distances shown.
Asgard pulse fire from the O'Neills seems to be shot out faster than ion cannons in New Order.

If used in a satellite weapon do you think the APBW shots would dissipate if they were fired through the Earth's atmosphere?
I think I'd be OK with using them in a satellite form if their shots couldn't actually hit the ground or pummel any inhabited areas on the planet.

If they dissipated going through the atmosphere they'd be the crappiest weapons of all time, even the thought of water dissipating Wraith weapons seems extremely far fetched to me.

A beam is more concentrated than a pulse therefore its range should be greater unless the large amount of energy it contains causes it to rapidly pull itself apart and spread out...

Basically if air molecules can reduce the Asgard plasma weapons to harmless pretty blue torches then the Ori shields must be made of paper.

[thekillman]

even the thought of water dissipating Wraith weapons seems extremely far fetched to me.

it is. a single wraith bolt should insta-vapourise all water over atlantis. the bombardment from The Siege would lay a few dozen square kilometers of ocean dry.

[Buba uognarf]

it is. a single wraith bolt should insta-vapourise all water over atlantis. the bombardment from The Siege would lay a few dozen square kilometers of ocean dry.

Well it really depends on whether the Wraith are shooting amram level DET weapons which have funky shield piercing properties or weapons able to level cities. Basically what it proves is that TPTB are clueless and haven't got a clue about writing consistant sci fi...

[thekillman]

they are clueless regarding shields and nukes. i mean, a teraton nuke? WTF! the thing would have to be so massive that it's not even funny. it wouldve required the size of the Horizon module just to reach that energy level with naquahdriah.

[stargater1990]

a 304 has a 200+ expensive crew that bores itself out of it's skull from patrolling earth against....nothing. the sattelite system is linked to atlantis so it can detect ships from far away. the target is hailed and if confirmed to be hostile, all sats prepare for battle. all 304's nearby receive a databurst concerning the data on the craft, it's ETA, etc. so all captains are always informed. it should take a few hours to cross the MW with asgard hyperdrives. so, unless the mission is ubervital, the 304 can be recalled at a time in which it arrives a few minutes before the enemy craft and still can pwn it if needed.

but the crews wouldnt be patroling earth, a sensor grid would be so the ships would be landed in their hangars and only launched when nessisary.

and the crew isint expensive. they get paid whether their working on the 304 or not.

and i have some doubts as to how long it actually takes for a 304 to get across the milkyway so it would be better to keep a fleet on earth at all times ready to be deployed.

and atlantis wont be here forever. they are most likely going to send it back to the PG so that they can make new movies and continue exploring the PG.

[thekillman]

and the crew isint expensive. they get paid whether their working on the 304 or not.

an sg team costs several million to train. what do you expect a crew costs that operates an intergalactic battlecruiser?

[Buba uognarf]

they are clueless regarding shields and nukes. i mean, a teraton nuke? WTF! the thing would have to be so massive that it's not even funny. it wouldve required the size of the Horizon module just to reach that energy level with naquahdriah.

There's the fact that a weapon able to drain a ZPM should make country sized crators when hitting the ground and reduce 500m ships to ashes.

an sg team costs several million to train. what do you expect a crew costs that operates an intergalactic battlecruiser?

Didn't you know its actually very easy to operate and even repair alien technology millions of years a head of our own

[stargater1990]

I knew you weren't, neither would a home based defense network be completed over night, but it could likely be completed within a few years.
I believe it currently takes 2 years to put out 2 304s, so unless Earth builds another 4 ship yards they're not gonna have the 40 ships in 10 years.

What does a 304's power have to do with Earth's building capacities?
Or do you mean those 304s are likely to still be around in 10 years times coz they're a powerful vessel?
A couple could be lost over the years if we have to try and stop a Wraith fleet at some point or a future enemy gets bad ideas.

We don't know exactly what technologies go into the construction of Earth based Human vessels, coz that's never been dealt with on the show, not even when we saw Prometheus in the hanger, although back then it's IMO pretty much a certainty that no Asgard methods were employed, we don't have a clue what goes into making a 304.
We also have no clue about how long it took the Asgard to make O'Neills, we were never told just how many ships they had produced between Unnatural Selection and New Order, since they only had 6 to spare to intercept the Replicator Cruiser it's possible they only had a few out in the field or that was all they had after 2 and a bit years of relative safety from the Replicators as they'd want to save their home world at all costs.
As far as the O'Neill's size compared to a 304 goes I personally don't think they're 10 times the size of a 304, maybe a little larger than a 304, but not by that much considering the size of Prometheus compared to an O'Neill, maybe that was a 10th of an O'Neill and 304s could be two or even 3 times the size of a 303, which would put the O'Neills at maybe 1.5 times the size of a 304 possibly twice that at a stretch.

This is all assuming you know the production rates of Asgard ship yards, which we've never been told.

Coz you'd have a permanent home based defense, which as thekillman said wouldn't leave an expensive crew, who you have to find, recruit, then train and leave bored twiddling their thumbs until the next threat comes along.

Who says a ship like a 304 would definitely be better than a satellite network or a cannon system at defending the planet for that matter?
Something that's smaller than a 304 is gonna require less power to shield, probably be more maneuverable (if it's a satellite) than a 304 but just as powerful and equally or better suited for removing a threat from the Earth's orbit.

When you've got a good foundation at home (your planetary defense), then you're safe to put all your efforts into making more ships, which you can then use to go out and annoy threats like the Wraith with, but be safe in the knowledge that you can always defend yourself at home if they come and attack .

Enough sats or cannons to cover Earth from most threats would probably cost a fraction of that 130 billion and we'd have a defense faster than it takes to make those ships.
The ships you could still make alongside the defense network.

Your timings are all dependent on us using Asgard technologies, which while effective could be intensely power hungry if you bare in mind that Odyssey had both a ZPM and an Asgard power source to use the Matter Converters and they depleted those with 50 years maintaining a TDF, ship's systems and making run of the mill things for 5 people, that's not using the Asgard tech to produce large ship components from raw materials.

We've never been told the costs of operating the 304's crews so we can't possibly know how much they'd cost to keep in service, food and supplies is one thing, but their salaries could each be huge considering they'd have to be very skilled individuals.

The two things namely a home defense net and extra ships are most certainly not mutually exclusive, you build your defense tech, maybe up the number of ship yards you have by a couple and you'd be sorted.
I've heard it said that in war there's no such thing as overkill, so assuming we've got the resources to do both, then we do both.
Doing both of these things simultaneously and that being a waste of time is just your opinion, if doing either the defense net or ships leaves you lacking in an area then you don't do just the one thing.
Having a defense network and the current crop of ships expanded by 2 every two years should be plenty, until Earth decides to put more money into making more ships, which considering they don't appear to be aiming to wipe out the Wraith anytime soon well it's highly unlikely they'll build 40 ships in 5 or 10 years.
Considering after seeing EATG it's highly unlikely our military will even bother doing more than trying to recall ships at a time of need and they'll rely on Atlantis (if it's not returned to Pegasus) to hold off any attack until the ships get home.

Cheers.
I doubt we'd need that many Asgard beam sats or ground cannons to cover the planet, maybe a couple on either side of the globe would sort things and then perhaps expand at whatever rate we can churn them out until Earth can be covered against a Wraith siege sized fleet or a few of them, which I think is still gonna be pretty cheap.

i still dont see the point in basically creating a satalite defense grid that would basically make a fleet of 304s unnessisary. i mean your saying that we should build a grid of satalite and ground cannons to protect the planet, and i agree that thats one way that we can go i mean i have no doubt that it would be more than effective in protecting the planet but i perfer to have a fleet of 304s that can be deployed if needed. i mean the 304s would be the permanent earth defense system.

and i totally disagree with your opinion concerning the asgard construction yard because i think that it would be more than possible to build 40 ships over the next decade provided we make at least 4 ships a year and increase our raw materials output and incorporate asgard technology which i think would be as simple as using asgard matter conversion technology and raw materials to basically build a ship in like a couple of months but thats just my opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree on tha one.


and as for the whole cost thing with opperating a 304. i dont see all of these expenses that the two of you seem to. i mean whether their on the ship or not the crew is working for the airforce so they proboly make a certin salary and if there not working on the ship then there proboly doing some other job but either way their pay is proboly equal to that it costs to opperate any other ship and as for the other costs lets think about it.you have a ship that dosent require fuel for a year at least and will basically work as long as you have a crew. and then you need missils for the ship, if they are even still putting them on the ships, and railgun ammo, and then you need food for the crew , and finally medical supplies. can you think of anything else that the ships could possibly need? because i cant and i cant see how food and medical suplies and weapons can cost that much and even then, you could proboly just matter convert those things on the ship and not even have to worry about them.