Megathread - Versus battles

[Ouroboros]

Just out of curiousity, how long does it take the bolts to reach the ground in Misbegotten?

Well going by the onscreen velocity and assuming the hiveship was only around 800km up in orbit probably a few hours actually. It's hard to guage exactly because we don't have a specific height for the hiveship.

I still trust her word on the matter over yours.

There's no contradiction between what she said and what I'm saying. She said it was possible the hiveship might try to kill them if they messed with the duel.

You also have continuously attempted to duck and weave around the whole issue that even fi we grant these bolts were from the hiveship, how have you proven that they represent the maximum threshhold of it's firepower.

Given the various conflicting evidence about the power of some hiveship blasts in one episode vs another why are you so resistant to the idea that a massive 11km ship that is thousands of years old might have more than one size or type of weapon. You seem to want to persist in this idea even though several people have already posted multiple pictures showing you both different sizes of bolt and different sizes of explosion made by bolts.

Is there's any reason why it shouldn't be?

Because it's dirt not something that reflects like water. It's going to impede the passage of light in significant quantities. It's precisely due to this fact that dust loading an atmosphere causes a nuclear winter.

Realistically, air is almost never "perfectly clear." For instance, just look at those commercials they do for air filters, where they show the amount of dust that people inhale every day.

Call it reletively clear then. The point remains. As does the point about the not so impressive flashes displayed when the shot didn't hit right next to the camera.

So a thousand tons of TNT = a few hand grenades?

No the energy you're describing as being sufficient to damage hiveships is what amounts to a few hand grenades. I was pointing out the vast gaping discrepancy between that energy and the energy actually used against, and survived by, hiveships in the show.

Circular reasoning. The idea that the Mark III are gigaton levels is supposed to be your conclusion. The above phrase assumes it as your premise to lead to your conclusion.

The idea that MKIII anti-ship warheads would be in roughly the low gigaton range when all other previously seen anti-ship warheads have also been in the low gigaton range follows logically.

Done so numerous times. Wasted ordinance (Stated in Siege), combined with international oversight (Shown in Scourge, Disclosure, Misbogetton, etc.) and the fact that other countries that currently help fund SGC and SGA (Origin) are weary about giving a US too much military power (Scourge, Disclosure), particularily on a ship where the captain doesn't have to answer to them (Misbegotten.). Why woud they help fund a program that gave a US owned ship the power to essentially devestate entire planets from space?

You've attempted to do so numerous times, you have not yet succeeded. In this case you claims about how international oversight would preclude the use of high megaton/low gigaton weapons in space conflict are blatently contradicted by the fact that such weapons HAVE been used already in space conflict as recently as "the siege". They've also been manufactured in sizes that are man portable.

Also Dr. Weir's treaty negotiation about non proliferation of nuclear arms dealt with the possible future pressence of such weapons in Africa. I don't know how you've gone on to assume that it would have anything what so ever to do with what the US airforce decided to do with their top secret project in the Pegasus galaxy. We're a few million lightyears out of jurisdiction here.

37 years ago, we had people walking on the moon. I guess it's outlandish to think that with all the progress we made, we wouldn't already have moon colonies up there by now, if not colonies on Mars.

I was talking about the Wraith. We already know Earth in the stargate universe has made significnat advances in the last ten years.

There's a difference between having the technology to do something, and the will, drive, necessity. Especially with the international community scrutinizes your every move.

I was talking about the Wraith. I don't think they have an international oversight commitee and they'd probably eat ours before they'd listen to them.

See above about will, desire, and necessity.

Ahh so they didn't need to have the ability to build gigaton level weapons/powersources because they wouldn't actually need them to beat THE ANCIENTS in a war. Or to be described as rivaling them.

[Ludofjn]

Ori>Wraith in 1v1
Ori<Wraith in real battle
Wraith= NEW RULERS OF MILKY WAY

[Schrodinger82]

Well going by the onscreen velocity and assuming the hiveship was only around 800km up in orbit probably a few hours actually.

So let's say the Wraith fired an averge of 5 bolts per second. You're saying that they fired over 20,000 bolts hight-GT per hour, for several hours, on a highly focused area of land, and still weren't sure sure if they managed to kill everyone.

Yeah, why do I not believe that?

She said it was possible the hiveship might try to kill them if they messed with the duel.

TEYLA: The hive has got to be watching. We shoot that Wraith, they blast us all from space.

Note how the dart theory doesn't work, because not only do we not see the dart ships, but we also don't hear the tell tale dart sounds either. Meaning that if it was a dart ship, then it would have been incredibly far away, which means that it wouldn't make anymore sense.

Because it's dirt not something that reflects like water.

I'm talking about the dust, pollen, and water that's already in the air under normal circumstance.

Call it reletively clear then.

Doubtful, unless the Wraith were firing their bolts in the middle of a chip fabrication room. Here, let me put it this way:

The sky lighting as a reuslt of the nuke (singular) from "The Siege":
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...gate11850.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...gate11851.html

The sky lighting as a reuslt of the Wraith bolts (plural) in "Misbegotten":
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...otten0580.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...otten0581.html

In both cases, we are the same distance from the explosion (ground level to orbit). But in the first scene, we're on the ground, and in the second scene, we're in orbit. In the first scene, the clouds being lit up are far from the explosion, where as the second scene, they're relatively close.

Now, look at those two pictures. You want me to believe that the explosion from Misbegotten are millions of times more powerful, based on the visual evidence. Yeah, I'm not buying that.

The idea that MKIII anti-ship warheads would be in roughly the low gigaton range when all other previously seen anti-ship warheads have also been in the low gigaton range follows logically.

"All"? We've seen two cases, one of which wasn't a missile, the other one of which with no international oversight, both which were considered one-shot deals, neither of which were deemed as standard ordinance.

In this case you claims about how international oversight would preclude the use of high megaton/low gigaton weapons in space conflict are blatently contradicted by the fact that such weapons HAVE been used already in space conflict as recently as "the siege".

Not on a US owned ship, they weren't.

They've also been manufactured in sizes that are man portable.

Which means that they weren't missiles, and thus treated different according to the missile treaties.

I don't know how you've gone on to assume that it would have anything what so ever to do with what the US airforce decided to do with their top secret project in the Pegasus galaxy. We're a few million lightyears out of jurisdiction here.

First, the Daedalus makes regular trips to Earth. Second:

DANIEL: The Antarctic Treaty was established to promote scientic research in the area.
WEIR: With the interests of progress for *all* mankind, not just that of the United States. So argue the other eleven states, all claiming shared jurisdiction. I mean, Article 1 states quite clearly there can be no establishment of any military base, and no testing of any weapons. You saw first-hand how powerful the Ancient outpost is.
DANIEL: And so meanwhile Jack just stays frozen in a stasis pod down there? He sacrificed himself to save us – *all* of us, not just this country.
WEIR: I know, but the scale of Anubis’ attack makes covering it up tenuous at best. If we’re gonna keep the entire world from finding out everything to do with the Stargate, we’re gonna need the full co-operation of every government now aware of what’s been going on. It’s just gonna take more time.

[Buba uognarf]

So why didn't the replicators just blow it up from orbit?

the replicators goal is to aquire advanced technology it's possible they wanted to capture it, that and the jaffa and goa'uld fleets were blocking them...

Never said it would cripple, only said it would likely cause a breech. Ships are designed to have redundancy, and since the hive ships are massive, there's a lot of room for that. Ever watch a pirate movie, where you'll have two ships blowing large chunks out of each other without sinking? I expect that space ships would be at least as advanced.

Yeah but pirate ships don't generally have massive internal weaknesses like you keep suggesting the hive ships have, like i keep saying you can't have both easy to pierce armor and big internal weaknesses which explode taking out 500m square blocks which is what happened in the hive when the hives blasted each other, massive explosions 500m accross and you think those were caused by amrams???

so not only can amrams pierce wraith armor dozens of metres thick in a single hit thye also make huge explosions by hitting a weak spot every time???

when i said cripple i was refereing to the fact that a couple of hive blasts at minimal power crippled the deadalus...(No Mans Land)

Doesn't matter, what we know is that they don't even have enough energy to prevent a Daedalus at 20% from having enough shield integrity to enter a black hole.

we know that after about 7-10 direct hits the Deadalus's shields were failing and they still had enough juice to enter the black hole, that means that even on low strength the shields are still immense which means that wraith weapons are all the more powerful for bringing them down...

No matter how look at it your estimates for wraith firepower have to be wrong they just don't fit in with all the other examples of wraith firepower...

Doesn't change that fact that motion in space is relative.

You obviously have more knowledge than me on this subject how would this affect targets moving towards each other? (not being sarcastic it's a serious question)...i'll look it up later btw so don't lie to me, lol

Well, obviously it wasn't, since the one nuke manage to punch all the way from the top of the ship down to the bottom of the ship, where as the same weakened hive ship could withstand hundreds of hive blasts to its side and still survive for long enough to give John and Co a chance to board his PJ and escape.

A nuke of unknown yield, as for the nuke punching through the hive there was no structural damage on the hive a few days later to account for this, the explosion could have been caused by secondary explosions either that or hive ships regenerate freakishly fast...

and it wasn't hundreds it was closer to 70-80, wow hives are tough aren't they! This again speaks for variable yields seeing as the hives in the hive brought each other down in about 20 so there's deffinately a difference in firepower...

It managed to set off an explosion at the bottom. And again, these massive explosions only seem to happen when Hive ships get hit on the side, or when John plants C4 on the side. If the front has extra armor and/or fewer weak points, then the back might as well.

C4 doesn't count seeing as it was inside the ship, and hits to the front still cause larger explosions than an amram could produces, the fact remains i've shown clear examples of different sized wraith blasts doing different amounts of damage which you have failed to debunk...

I don't think McKay would be freaking out about how the ship is so bad damaged that he can't even find a system to overload if it had only been hit by one Wraith blast.

No but it was hit by Several in the same place he might...

Ouroboros points out that the warheads are relatively small. Now, if that's the case, then what propulsion system could they possibly use? Answer: None. That means that the only way they could be flying over Atlantis would be if they were in geosynchronous orbit.

who says they were flying over atlantis atall???

We know that Atlantica is Earth sized (stated in Storm) with an Earth like gravity. Geosynchronous orbit on Earth is 35,786 km from the Earth's surface. In Siege, based on an initial velocity of zero, an end velocity of 10,000 kph, and the time necessary for impact, we can conclude that the Wraith ships were roughly 100 km above the surface. Atlantis expected that six GT level nukes to be effective at protecting them at 35,786 km. This tells me that they assumed that the nukes would be effective at a considerable range.

where are you getting 35,786km from? as i understood the mines were meant to hard to detect and placed with a proximity scanner so that they could detonate when the ships got close...

Then there's the fact that even if the Wraith didn't know how poweful these nukes were, they obviously able to detect them, and could have avoided them or shot them down. But they didn't. Instead, they decided to go out of their way, fly to the nearest asteroid belt, start pulling them in their tractor beams one by one, and attempt a game of cosmic bowling. The fact that they were able to hit all the nukes with only 100 asteroids, again, tells me that this was considerable range.

Your point? They saw space mines in orbit and instead of risking their own ships they detonated them at a safe distance - they were smart. Only 100 asteroids? i don't get where you got considerable range from please tell me.

No Man's Land.

In the dart bays and it caused secondary explosions. Doesn't count. Show me an example of rail guns damaging the superstructure of a wraith hive ship. Otherwise it's pointless debating this because everything you say will be on blind speculation.

Because they have a matter component.

We don't know that. Provide a reference to Wraith weaponary stating they have a matter component. And how would that create smoke anyway?

[The Great Lord Baal]

what the heck sort of a question is that the ori of course the deadulud could destroy wraith ships yet the odessy couldnt damage an ori ship and they only sent 4 to take over a galaxy

[Schrodinger82]

the replicators goal is to aquire advanced technology it's possible they wanted to capture it

1) The replicator's goal is to replicate at all costs. A machine that destroys all matter in the galaxy does not add to that goal.

2) Replicarter is very clear that she's out to destroy the device, and the characters make frequent references on how the replicaters view it as their only threat. "Within it is the one weapon in this galaxy capable of destroying me. (She gestures, and the sand blows away. She turns back to face Daniel.) Thanks to you, it will soon be no more."

Yeah but pirate ships don't generally have massive internal weaknesses like you keep suggesting the hive ships have like i keep saying you can't have both easy to pierce armor and big internal weaknesses which explode taking out 500m square blocks which is what happened in the hive when the hives blasted each other, massive explosions 500m accross and you think those were caused by amrams???

Again, watch Allies with the 302s.

when i said cripple i was refereing to the fact that a couple of hive blasts at minimal power crippled the deadalus...(No Mans Land)

The Daedalus was crippled coming into that episode.

we know that after about 7-10 direct hits the Deadalus's shields were failing and they still had enough juice to enter the black hole, that means that even on low strength the shields are still immense

Or it just means that flying through an acretion disc isn't that impressive in the SG-verse, which makes sense, given the fact that the entire premise of the show is that you can walk though the event horizon of a wormhole and be perfectly fine.

Or the fact that the "time dialation effects" could apparently translate through a wormhole and into the gate room, even though the only reason why a black hole distorts time is because the gravity is supposed to be intense enough to accelerate you to near light speeds and rip you apart in the process. Now, there are two ways to interpret that. 1) Black holes work differently in the SG-verse. 2) Black holes function normally, and SG-10 just have extreme structually intergrity to survive the massive gravity of a black hole.

You obviously have more knowledge than me on this subject how would this affect targets moving towards each other? (not being sarcastic it's a serious question)...i'll look it up later btw so don't lie to me, lol

SHEPPARD: What about hitting a stationary target?
McKAY: All motion in space is relative.

You know how it's harder to hit a moving target than a moving target? Okay, suppose that both you and the target are moving. Chances are, you're going to have a hard time being exactly precise.

and it wasn't hundreds it was closer to 70-80, wow hives are tough aren't they!

Circular reasoning. Hive ships are super tough, because they can withstand things that damage hive ships.

This again speaks for variable yields seeing as the hives in the hive brought each other down in about 20 so there's deffinately a difference in firepower...

They were also much closer. Maybe it just meant that they had an easier time zeroing in on specific systems.

C4 doesn't count seeing as it was inside the ship

Which means that it still had to penetrate through however much armor the hive ship had.

If I punch my fist through a wall all the way the outside and conclude that the wall must not be very strong if I can punch through it, are you going to insist, "But that doesn't count, because you were inside the house are the time!"?

Even if you blame it on "secondary explosions," you have to ask why these same "secondary explosions" didn't manage to kill everyone inside.

No but it was hit by Several in the same place he might...

You: "Judging by what i've seen from the nuke impact the nuke doesn't do that much more damage than a wraith blast does."

who says they were flying over atlantis atall???

So how were they going to protect the city again?

where are you getting 35,786km from?

The planet has Earth like gravity, and is of Earth like size (specifically stated in Storm.). The mines would have to be placed into a stable orbit to keep it from falling to the ground, and it would have to be geosynchronous, tothat the mines don't drift to the other side of the planet and leave Atlantis completely unprotected. On our Earth, geosynchronoous orbit is 35,786km from surface. Of course, this number will vary by just how close Atlantis is to being "earth sized."

On the Alpha Site, geosynchronous orbit is 33,785 km, suggesting that the planet is 6% smaller. When Thor gives them the Anti-Replicator satellite to protect the base, guess what he recomends?

THOR: The most effective deployment would be geosynchronous orbit above your base at an altitude of 33785 kilometres with a zero inclination.

as i understood the mines were meant to hard to detect and placed with a proximity scanner so that they could detonate when the ships got close...

How close is "close", when you're trying to protect Atlantis from 35,786km away? 1 km? 2 km? 100 km? 1,000 km? What?

Your point? They saw space mines in orbit and instead of risking their own ships they detonated them at a safe distance - they were smart.

Yes, they were smart enough to recognize that a nuke might hurt them, even from a considerable distance away, even though the same weapons obviously wouldn't be designed to hurt atlantis. You should probably follow their lead.

In the dart bays and it caused secondary explosions. Doesn't count.

And how did the railguns hurt the dart bays?

[Schrodinger82]

what the heck sort of a question is that the ori of course the deadulud could destroy wraith ships yet the odessy couldnt damage an ori ship and they only sent 4 to take over a galaxy

Pretty much.

GAJDECKI: They needed to come up with an adversary – the Wraith – who were sufficiently powerful that they could have defeated the Ancients ... but who were sufficiently stoopid that we can outwit them on a weekly basis! And that’s pretty tricky! It comes out in the first episode that the Wraiths can project illusions, where you think you see them but they’re not really there.

The Ancients had the technology, but they were also pretty stupid about how they used it. e.g., attempting to drive a transport ship through a blockade on the most heavily guarded planet in the galaxy, rather than simply going to a less guarded planet and going to the stargate, or maybe using their transport rings that we already know that they had at this point (Lost City.). They also weren't very aggressive, and unwilling to go on the attack. Then there's the numbers thing, which is the main reason why they eventually lost.

The Wraith, meanwhile, are likewise stupid, in order for SGA to beat them week after week. e.g., there's the fact that John was able to trick them in "The Hive" by convincing the other darts to fire on the other ship, without getting the other darts to bother asking where the order came from or what the point given their power levels, and then getting both ships to fire on each other.

OTOH, the Ori are not only as advanced as the Ancients were, but they're also willing to carry out a total warfare on all levels, and have been cunning and aggressive as well. I mean, they don't just try to outpower SG1. They'll also try to play psychological tactics to win followers overs. Do you think that the Wraith would ever visit a planet and engage in a public debate with SGA over their respective philosophies?

I mean, compare how the Ori tricked SG1 in "Beachhead," to how the Wraith tricked SGA in "Allies." Actually, come to think of it, the characters in SG1 tend to be a lot more tactically superior in general, which might have to do with the fact that SG1 is a military mission, where as SGA is a science mission. On SG1, you'll see Ba'al doing things like tricking SG1 to hunt his clones down, making them think that he's there helpless prisoner, only for it to turn out to be a giant ruse so that he can get in their base to hack their computers while gathering enough transmitters together to punch through their jamming tech. On SGA, you'll see Ronan yelling at the hive leader to come down and fight him man to man, and then the Hive leader comes down and does exactly that. Like I said, stupid.

The Ori could send priors to hundreds of different worlds throughout Pegasus, and start winning over converts. Seeing as how a lot of people from Pegasus worship the ancestors and are incredibly demoralized by the cullings, it won't be very hard to win them over. This is an entire galaxy ripe for the picking.

The Ori not only have advanced tech, but they also have basic MacGyver skills to developed advanced weapons and shields from more primitive civilization. The Genii, for instance, can already develop nukes capable of blowing up hive ships. What happens if the Ori give them some assistance, in exchange for the promise of power? Heck, the planet that Vala visited is in the dark ages in terms of their level of technology. The Sodan were able to create personal cloaks from ancient blueprints despite the fact that there were living in huts. Obviously, they don't need much.

Worse comes to worse, the Ori could find a planet that's on the way to being culled, infect the people with a few of those bugs, and wait for the darts to return the ship. Then just sit back, and wait for the fireworks to happen. The Wraith can't even prevent John and the prisoners from escaping their hive ship, three times now. They have absolutely no defense against the type of attack we witnessed in "Scourge," and given that their ships are organic in nature, there's a good chance that they would be particularily susceptible.

[Ouroboros]

So let's say the Wraith fired an averge of 5 bolts per second. You're saying that they fired over 20,000 bolts hight-GT per hour, for several hours, on a highly focused area of land, and still weren't sure sure if they managed to kill everyone.

Yeah, why do I not believe that?

Because you've jumped to looking at a completely different episode now for some god unknown reason.

It's interesting that the apparrent discrepancy in speed between the bolts in misbegotten and Sateda you seem to have discovered further discredits the idea that it was fire from the hive in Sateda though. Good work.

TEYLA: The hive has got to be watching. We shoot that Wraith, they blast us all from space.

So speculation. Or do you intend to prove Teyla can see the future as well?

Maybe she gets it from her Wraith DNA.

Note how the dart theory doesn't work, because not only do we not see the dart ships, but we also don't hear the tell tale dart sounds either. Meaning that if it was a dart ship, then it would have been incredibly far away, which means that it wouldn't make anymore sense.

So you've got a problem with it being a dart because you don't think there was enough noise to account for one, but you'll happily theorise that it was actually an 11km long hiveship chillin' out in the atmosphere instead.

Just... wow.

I'm talking about the dust, pollen, and water that's already in the air under normal circumstance.

And these minute amounts don't exactly cause inordinate reflections of light do they. They're the benchmark of what happens in a normal situation.

In both cases, we are the same distance from the explosion (ground level to orbit). But in the first scene, we're on the ground, and in the second scene, we're in orbit. In the first scene, the clouds being lit up are far from the explosion, where as the second scene, they're relatively close.

Now, look at those two pictures. You want me to believe that the explosion from Misbegotten are millions of times more powerful, based on the visual evidence. Yeah, I'm not buying that.

I don't even get what you're trying to prove here. For one thing that explosion from Siege is the result fo an entire hiveship going up, powersources/ammo/etc not just the nuke by itself so it very well could be in the gigaton range or even higher.

"All"? We've seen two cases, one of which wasn't a missile, the other one of which with no international oversight, both which were considered one-shot deals, neither of which were deemed as standard ordinance.

They made 6 mines. Not really a 1 shot deal, and the first 2 missiles are ten years old.

Not on a US owned ship, they weren't.

You've got to be kidding me. They were deployed, transported commanded and probably constructed by the United States Airforce. Oh but so long as they don't put them on a ship than that's ok right. Where are you getting this stuff because it's certainly not from the show.

Which means that they weren't missiles, and thus treated different according to the missile treaties.

What missile treaties and the Goa'uld busters most certainly were missiles. They were even missiles that could have conceivably been launched at another Earthbound target as ICBMs.

DANIEL: The Antarctic Treaty was established to promote scientic research in the area.
WEIR: With the interests of progress for *all* mankind, not just that of the United States. So argue the other eleven states, all claiming shared jurisdiction. I mean, Article 1 states quite clearly there can be no establishment of any military base, and no testing of any weapons. You saw first-hand how powerful the Ancient outpost is.
DANIEL: And so meanwhile Jack just stays frozen in a stasis pod down there? He sacrificed himself to save us – *all* of us, not just this country.
WEIR: I know, but the scale of Anubis’ attack makes covering it up tenuous at best. If we’re gonna keep the entire world from finding out everything to do with the Stargate, we’re gonna need the full co-operation of every government now aware of what’s been going on. It’s just gonna take more time.

They're talking about setting up US military bases in Antarctica or tinkering with the ancient tech/weapons there and how this treaty forbids that. The treaty is even called "the Antarctic Treaty".

I want you to prove to me that

-The Antarctic treaty carries any sort of jurisdiction over events that take place in the Pegasus galaxy

-The Antarctic treaty forbids nukes of a given yield but still allows weaker nukes

-The antarctic treaty forbids missiles of a given yeild but allows mines of such a yeild

-The Antarctic treaty says anything about nukes, missiles or mines at all

[Madeleine]

Two reminders:

DO NOT use the Quote feature to 'quote' something that the 'quoted' person NEVER ACTUALLY POSTED.

DO NOT tell people to go away, leave, etc. That's rude.

Thanks.

[Schrodinger82]

(Note: Since M.O's post got deleted, I removed my response as well).

Because you've jumped to looking at a completely different episode now for some god unknown reason.

Nope. The ROF can be seen in Misbegotten. The time and yeild came from you, in reference to the same episode. You can see bolts hitting the ground as the ship is still firing, which means that's it would have been firing the entire time that it takes bolts to reach the ground (several hours, according to you).

BTW, it's amazing how you constantly refer to fight scenes as though they take place in real time ("They were able to drop the shields down X percent in less than a minute!"), while also insisting that firing pattern in Misbegotten takes several hours.

So speculation.

As opposed to you, since you already purchased the DVD and saw the alternate angle shot, no speculation required.

And these minute amounts don't exactly cause inordinate reflections of light do they.

The do when when the light is powerful enough, yes. For instance, a handheld green laser powered by AA battteries can shine a clear line miles long, thanks to dust and particulate found in the air normally.

I don't even get what you're trying to prove here. For one thing that explosion from Siege is the result fo an entire hiveship going up,

When the entire hive ship exploded in part one, the explosion we saw was barely powerful enough to light up the satellite itself, much less lighting up clouds from orbit.

They made 6 mines. Not really a 1 shot deal,

SHEPPARD: Yes, but I recommend keeping a couple in reserve.

EVERETT: Negative. We're only going to get one shot at this.

and the first 2 missiles are ten years old.

The moon landing was nearly 40 years old, and we haven't invested much to duplicate the feat since. What's your point?

Oh but so long as they don't put them on a ship than that's ok right. Where are you getting this stuff because it's certainly not from the show.

I'm getting it from the fact that the other countries want the US to share their military advancements, which has been from the show on numerous occasions. SGA answers to the world. The Daedalus answers only to the US.

What missile treaties and the Goa'uld busters most certainly were missiles.

Which is only an issue after they find out about it, which didn't occur until much later.

http://sandia.gov/asc/russia/arms_control.html

They're talking about setting up US military bases in Antarctica

And SGA is an extension of that, which is why the entire world has been involved.

-The Antarctic treaty carries any sort of jurisdiction over events that take place in the Pegasus galaxy

Does the Daedalus make frequent trips back to Earth, where it restocks supplies? Yes? Then any Earth bound treaties still apply.

-The Antarctic treaty forbids nukes of a given yield but still allows weaker nukes

http://www.thebulletin.org/article.p...fn=ja99collins

Yet any nation seeking to develop a high-yield nuclear warhead small enough to put on top of a long-range ballistic missile would have to conduct nuclear tests to ensure that the design actually worked. Thus the CTBT would reduce the very threat the GOP says it is so concerned about.

http://sandia.gov/asc/russia/arms_control.html

CTBT (Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty)
This treaty seeks to end all nulcear weapons tests. Related to the CTBT and in effect in 1986:

Limited Test Ban Treaty, 1963: Banned nuclear weapons tests in the atmosphere, outer space, and under water
Threshold Test Ban Treaty, 1974: Limited the yield of underground Russian and US nuclear weapons tests to 150 kilotons
Peaceful Nuclear Explosions Treaty, 1976: Complements the 1974 treaty and limits group explosions to a total yield of 1,500 kilotons.

-The antarctic treaty forbids missiles of a given yeild but allows mines of such a yeild

-The Antarctic treaty says anything about nukes, missiles or mines at all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_delivery

Cruise missiles may also be launched from [i]mobile launchers on the ground, and from naval ships.

There is no letter change in the US arsenal to distinguish the warheads of cruise missiles from those for ballistic missiles.

Nuclear-armed cruise missiles are amongst the least deployed of all nuclear weapons, as their deployment is restricted by treaties such as SALT II.

But here's the main deal:

JACKSON: well can you blame them? I mean…3 years ago we promised to share all off-world technology.

MITCHELL: of a non military nature.

JACKSON: That wasn't in the original wording of the agreement.

Naquadah enhanced nukes certainly qualify as "off world technology," since the minral isn't native to Earth. Ergo, if we start using these nukes, for personal purposes, without checking with the IOA, then China will want those as well. The best solution, then, is to not use them for personal purposes, e.g., on ships that are outside their field of oversight. In the real world, the US already has a massive trade deficit with china just from consumer goods, so it probably wouldn't be smart to bite the hand that feeds you and dangle such high yield technologies in front of them.

[Mister Oragahn]

Jumping immeadiately to exotic principles is not keeping things simple.

The description is simple. The explanation is simple. All meant to easily show that a simple DET weapon is not the solution.

And they've also used device machines that don't require large amounts of power. For instance, the stargate itself is capable of producing a stable wormhole for several minutes using the power of a single lightning bolt.

The stargate is not a weapon.
If you want to convince me that Lantean weapons do not require important levels of energy, you better try explain me why the Orion had to trade shields for drones, why drones in the Antartica outpost could not be fired without a ZPM, why the dozen of drones left in Atlantis still needed a naqahdah generator mkII, why the super cannon of Arctarus was tied to a star system busting machine, etc.

Once again, the physics of this feat are beyond us to gauge, and it's doubtful that the writer put a lot of thought in the exact stats to begin with (per MW's comment.).

Once again, they're NOT impossible to gauge, just very hard to. Again, with all elements listed, with all the energies the 304 would be facing (remember, just one among many, how hot and dense the accretion disc is, and yet, how fast ships were flying), it's just a pure no sense to claim that the levels of energy would be ridiculously low instead of high.

As for the writers' intent, it's irrelevant here.

McKay seems to think otherwise. I trust hsi logic over yours.

McKay does not think differently than I do. He's just reading the database. We see that if we had to accept the idea that the lantean satellite deals damage by pure DET, then a very minuscule and largely wasted fraction of Hiroshima's yield would be enough to entirely destroy a hiveship while a multi megaton or gigaton nuke exploding extremely close to the hiveships didn't even externally cripple it.
Obviously, since the nuke deals its damage through known mechanism, the exotic thing here is the satellite beam.

Wrong. You told me the above, but you didn't show me anything. Showing and telling are two completely different things.

They're not when I actually provided a demonstration multiple times, when you have provided nothing safe attacking each point separatedly without even an ounce of will to provide a coherent and organized view, since your tactic largely relies on red herrings and cutting people's posts into intelligible smaller pieces which then loose all coherency.

Not to mention the fact that you still haven't explained why Baal would take up a deal to turn down his weapons to less than 10%, for the sake of taking advantage of a 40% limitation.

I don't have to, it's part of the deal. He did, that's all we need.
If you want the details, I already posted them earlier on.

Right, just like there's "evidence" that the personal shield generator was acting on it's own.

The personal shield is not a drone. You're basing your argument on the idea that both systems act EXACTLY the same way. You could never prove it. Plus they're different devices, and it's useless to start arguing on the personal shield when you don't even bother replying to a simple direct question regarding the drone.

Because the guy on the radio who's watching this as it's going on with only seconds to think about what's going on is going to understand it better than Beckett himself would.

What, Beckett just gives his feelings, his impression, as a guy lost with controls he was afraid of. Look, he only had less than a minute before being ordered to stop the drone, and I'm tired of your bickering.
You're constantly saying that you're not arguing that Beckett was tracking the helicopter.
Then it's the drone. You say it's not. So what? It's an act of the super invisible pink elephant?
Sorry, but that does not work.

Why don't you explain to us why a drone launched in the first place per your theory? Is this just the standard procedure for the chair system? Guy sits down, drone gets released automatically, whether he wants it to be released or not? At what point does the chair platform think to itself, "Gee, now would be a good time to fire a drone"? How does it come to that thought entirely on it's own?

Please stop twisting my words.
I never claimed that the drone departed on its own.
I claimed that the drone tracked the helicopter on its own.

Moreover, explain to us why a drone acting entirely on its own would stumble around the room clumsily upon starting, bouncing off valuable equipment in the process? Did the Ancients program the drones to seek out targets within the outpost itself? You should also explain to us makes two passes passing accross the windshield of the helicopter, and two passes circling around the helicopter, before diving into the snow. Man, Ancient technology must really suck, if it can't even take down a simple terrain helicopter despite repeated attemps.

Please answer these basic questions, in accordance to your theory.

Beckett messed up and badly influenced the drone. In fact, I've argued for years that the drone missed the helicopter so often because of the disturbance caused by Beckett.
But he never made any choice to have the drone head for a target.

"The second I shut my eyes, I could see you see, I felt power I've never had before, I had it dancing across the sky... it was magical it really was."

Yep, sure sounds an aggressive incident to me to me.

Beckett is just giving his impressions. They're entirely vague imagery, subject to interpretation. We know the guy, and we know he would not want to destroy the helicopter. Yet that's exactly what the drone was trying to do.
So again, either you admit you're arguing that Beckett was trying to shoot down the helicopter and had a large influence on the drone, or he didn't and only had a remote influence on it.
So please adress this corectly.

Two fallacies. Appeal to authority, appeal to ignorance. Do better.

Talking about appeals to authority, you're doing a fine job here.
As for the ignorance, here's the data you want:
Clicky 1; divide by four since he made the calcs at the photosphere altitude, not at the Ha'tak's altitude. Plus those are high end calcs. Let's look at the other ones:
Clicky 2; look at the energy/area figure per second, this is the one that matters. You'll see that even the low end figure is about several hundreds of megatons per second.
However, his calcs are based on a 2 km wide Ha'tak.
With a 700 m wide Ha'tak, and a shield's maximum diameter being about 800m, we're going to use a radius of 2/3 the equatorial diameter, because of the flattened nature of the shield.

And that's an area of 3,574,434.31 m².
Half this area is 1,787,217.154 m²
Semi area because I only took half of the shield, the side facing the star. In reality, the sun's core is so big that more than 70% of the shield will be hit by direct radiations. Which again proves the absolutely low end nature of the figure.

So, multiplied by the low end luminosity figure of the blue giant;

2.614 x 10^10 x 1.787217154 x 10^6
3,867.537921256 10^12 W

3,867.537921256 terawatts. That's roughly 924.36 KT/s.

That's the absolute anal retentive low end figure of the abysmal darkest depths of the blackest hole, and it's for a Ha'tak's shields, not even Anubis' supership's shields.

Even 10% of the raw power necessary to knock off such a shield per second is still 6 times more powerful than Hiroshima. Coupled with the former analysis of the bombardment sequence, it finely proves that the shield had holes and let bolts pass through totally unhampered (zero reaction with the shield for the bolts passing through the visible skin of the shield), not that it was overwhelmed by brute force like you keep claiming despite overwhelming evidence.

SGC and China

They did build those weapons anyway, and are still building more gatebusters and more anticapship tactical warheads. Right now, you're trying to rewrite the show and denying their past and ongoing production. Please stick with facts.

[Mister Oragahn]

Two reminders:

DO NOT use the Quote feature to 'quote' something that the 'quoted' person NEVER ACTUALLY POSTED.

DO NOT tell people to go away, leave, etc. That's rude.

Thanks.

1. It's a quote, thus we ALL use and have used quote tags for years everywhere. No one here has complained about being confused about reading a piece of transcript and thinking it's a piece of someone's post.
I actually never seen anyone complain about such a problem on any of the tens of bulletin boards I have been a member of since the 90s.

2. Please, MW, stop erasing my posts. I think I've made them carebear friendly enough now.

[Madeleine]

1. It's a quote, thus we ALL use and have used quote tags for years everywhere. No one here has complained about being confused about reading a piece of transcript and thinking it's a piece of someone's post.

I'm not talking about where people are posting transcripts or have themselves quoted other words. That goes on all the time, we all do that. I'm talking about stuff like

I have three eyebrows

see? that's horrid of me cos you never said that, but i'm making it look like you did. That's not an issue of transcripts or anything, it's me putting words in your mouth and that's unfair.

I actually never seen anyone complain about such a problem on any of the tens of bulletin boards I have been a member of since the 90s.

I have. But either way, it's immaterial. I'm sure you'd agree that stuff like

I'm typing this as I sleep

is out of order. I know that what you typed in a quote box wasn't quite that extreme, but seriously, don't do it.

Please, MW, stop erasing my posts. I think I've made them carebear friendly enough now.

Saying please isn't the issue. If I find insults and behaviours that are against forum rules I'll delete. If not I won't.

[Buba uognarf]

1) The replicator's goal is to replicate at all costs. A machine that destroys all matter in the galaxy does not add to that goal.

2) Replicarter is very clear that she's out to destroy the device, and the characters make frequent references on how the replicaters view it as their only threat. "Within it is the one weapon in this galaxy capable of destroying me. (She gestures, and the sand blows away. She turns back to face Daniel.) Thanks to you, it will soon be no more."

The replicators would rather assimilate technology than destroy it, thats the only explanation, unless you think a few replicator controlled ha'taks can't equal the firepower of an Ori ship?

Again, watch Allies with the 302s.

Irrelevent seeing as the only direct hit from an arman was a weak spot which was explosed and unarmored. The hit caused a small explosion which then set off the hyperdrive reactor so your point is moot seeing as it was not the amram causing the explosion. The explosions still wasn't as large as the ones in the hive anyway...

like a said show me a direct amaram hit to the hull of a hive ship...

The Daedalus was crippled coming into that episode.

No it wasn't, it was crippled leaving it....it still had full shields and hyperdrive ability the hive was worse off it had less than 50% power...

Or it just means that flying through an acretion disc isn't that impressive in the SG-verse, which makes sense, given the fact that the entire premise of the show is that you can walk though the event horizon of a wormhole and be perfectly fine.

Or the fact that the "time dialation effects" could apparently translate through a wormhole and into the gate room, even though the only reason why a black hole distorts time is because the gravity is supposed to be intense enough to accelerate you to near light speeds and rip you apart in the process. Now, there are two ways to interpret that. 1) Black holes work differently in the SG-verse. 2) Black holes function normally, and SG-10 just have extreme structually intergrity to survive the massive gravity of a black hole.

So your arguement has now turned to, black holes are nothing special in stargate and the ability to survive flying into the acceleration disk of one when shields are failing is nothing...

basically you can't accept the fact that wraith weapons are obviously more powerful than amrams...

the fact is for one reason or another the gravity didn't translate into the gateroom but the time dilation was there, now i think it's time to facedfacts seeing as you seem to be running out of ways to debunk our evidence, we have shown you 2 things...

1) different sized wraith bolts
2) different sized wraith bolts doing different amounts of damage

your whole arguement has been trying to prove that the bolts are either the same size or the that the explosions are actually caused by something else, none of which work.

SHEPPARD: What about hitting a stationary target?
McKAY: All motion in space is relative.

You know how it's harder to hit a moving target than a moving target? Okay, suppose that both you and the target are moving. Chances are, you're going to have a hard time being exactly precise.

ok, i see...So how would that affect to targets moving towards each other?

the fact is over a period of several minutes the deadalus was firing in the same general vancinity, how do you explain the lack of 500m squared explosions?

Circular reasoning. Hive ships are super tough, because they can withstand things that damage hive ships.

My statement wasn't meant to be a serious point...

They were also much closer. Maybe it just meant that they had an easier time zeroing in on specific systems.

Moot point seeing as both hives hit the same area, one was only a few larger direct hits the other sprayed the entire area so any weaknesses hit by the smaller more powerful volly would have been hit by the larger volly seeing as the entire side of the hive ship was consumed by fire from the ship. Sorry but you've failed to debunk it again. I've shown different sized wraith blasts doing different amounts of damage which still allows for your Sateda blasts.

Which means that it still had to penetrate through however much armor the hive ship had.

there are unarmored sections of hive ships, the explosions seem to be in these area's so they didn't blast through the armor...

If I punch my fist through a wall all the way the outside and conclude that the wall must not be very strong if I can punch through it, are you going to insist, "But that doesn't count, because you were inside the house are the time!"?

answered above...

Even if you blame it on "secondary explosions," you have to ask why these same "secondary explosions" didn't manage to kill everyone inside.

Because hive ships are huge and the secondary explosions were powerful enough to damage the entire ship.

You: "Judging by what i've seen from the nuke impact the nuke doesn't do that much more damage than a wraith blast does."

Yeah and it doesn't do that much more half a dozen of the wraith blasts from the hive is that much when compared to 1000 amrams...

So how were they going to protect the city again?

sorry just watched the episode ignore my earlier point,

The planet has Earth like gravity, and is of Earth like size (specifically stated in Storm.). The mines would have to be placed into a stable orbit to keep it from falling to the ground, and it would have to be geosynchronous, tothat the mines don't drift to the other side of the planet and leave Atlantis completely unprotected. On our Earth, geosynchronoous orbit is 35,786km from surface. Of course, this number will vary by just how close Atlantis is to being "earth sized."

On the Alpha Site, geosynchronous orbit is 33,785 km, suggesting that the planet is 6% smaller. When Thor gives them the Anti-Replicator satellite to protect the base, guess what he recomends?

THOR: The most effective deployment would be geosynchronous orbit above your base at an altitude of 33785 kilometres with a zero inclination.

ok...

How close is "close", when you're trying to protect Atlantis from 35,786km away? 1 km? 2 km? 100 km? 1,000 km? What?

well pretty close as i'd imagine that they'd want to maximise damage and it would have to be close seeing as the in space the blast radius isn't going to be as much and the nukes effectiveness is going to severely drop the further out it is.

Yes, they were smart enough to recognize that a nuke might hurt them, even from a considerable distance away, even though the same weapons obviously wouldn't be designed to hurt atlantis. You should probably follow their lead.

What makes you think they knew it was a nuke? For all they knew it was another piece of ancient technology...

And how did the railguns hurt the dart bays?

By firing into them when they were opened??? Notice caldwell waited until the bays were opened before firing and took multiple hits before they were, so that seems to suggest that the rail guns can't penetrate the hull of a hive ship even an area that is unarmored like the dart bays.

what was your point?

[Schrodinger82]

The description is simple. The explanation is simple. All meant to easily show that a simple DET weapon is not the solution.

Saying that the world was created in 6 days and that there was no big bang is pretty simple too, but not very convincing.

If you want to convince me that Lantean weapons do not require important levels of energy, you better try explain me why the Orion had to trade shields for drones,

Not all systems are equally efficient on how they process energy.

Once again, they're NOT impossible to gauge, just very hard to. Again, with all elements listed, with all the energies the 304 would be facing (remember, just one among many, how hot and dense the accretion disc is, and yet, how fast ships were flying), it's just a pure no sense to claim that the levels of energy would be ridiculously low instead of high.

In one episode, SG-10 is pulled into the gravity of a black hole and accelerated to the point where time stops to a near halt. Just out of curiousity, how much physical strain do you think that would be, for them to accelerate at that speed without being ripped apart by gravitational forces? Is it because SG-10 is incredibly tough, or is it because, as MW, put it, "The Writers themselves don't think about these things as hard as you're thinking about them" when it comes to astronomical plot devices, like the physical stress of black holes?

We see that if we had to accept the idea that the lantean satellite deals damage by pure DET, then a very minuscule and largely wasted fraction of Hiroshima's yield

Why not, if a few blocks of C4 can make kilometer wide holes? Did Hiroshima focus all it's energy in a narrow beam?

while a multi megaton or gigaton nuke exploding extremely close to the hiveships didn't even externally cripple it.

Circular reason. We know that it must be exotic because MT and GT weaponry wouldn't be enough, and we know that MT and GT weaponry must not be enough because the weapon must be exotic.

I don't have to, it's part of the deal.

Circular reasoning. "We know that Baal must have agreed to it because it was part of the deal, and we know that it must have been part of the deal because Baal agreed to it."

The personal shield is not a drone.

No, but it has a mental interface like a drone.

You're basing your argument on the idea that both systems act EXACTLY the same way.

Beckett himself makes the comparison. I trust him over you.

I claimed that the drone tracked the helicopter on its own.

Obviously not, or it would have headed straight towards the helicopter and chased after it, rather than taking four passes around the helicopter before diving into the snow.

Beckett messed up and badly influenced the drone.

Okay, so you state that Beckett could direct the drone. Thus showing that O Neil and Sheppard could have direct the drone as well. Which also means that the would then be able to seek out weak points and major systems, somehting that Zelenka could not have done.

Concession accepted.

Talking about appeals to authority, you're doing a fine job here.
As for the ignorance, here's the data you want:
Clicky 1; divide by four since he made the calcs at the photosphere altitude, not at the Ha'tak's altitude. Plus those are high end calcs. Let's look at the other ones:
Clicky 2; look at the energy/area figure per second, this is the one that matters. You'll see that even the low end figure is about several hundreds of megatons per second.
However, his calcs are based on a 2 km wide Ha'tak.
With a 700 m wide Ha'tak, and a shield's maximum diameter being about 800m, we're going to use a radius of 2/3 the equatorial diameter, because of the flattened nature of the shield.

From the episode:

JACOB: This system is centered around a blue giant star. If we can move close enough to the choronisphere, the radiation should keep us well hidden.
JACK: Excuse me? Radiation?
JACOB: Well, the ship's hull will protect us ... for a while. (Danny looks worried and Jack fakes a smile) We're entering the choronisphere. The good news is that we won't show up in anyone else's sensors. The bad news is that our sensors will be blocked as well.
SAM: So when we're ready to go, we won't know if anyone's out there waiting for us. (Jacob grins and nods)
DANNY: How long do we have?
JACOB: About an hour without full shields. Ten hours with em. Sam ... wanna give me a hand? (She nods)

1) There are also comments like, "Since they weren’t on the surface, but also were less than one stellar radius away, the answer lies somewhere in between, probably about 2/5ths what it would be at the surface.". Where do they come up with these numbers? Jake says that they're entering the choronisphere, present tense, which means that they were still close to the edge. Do any of them have exact numbers for how far the edge of a corona extends from a blue star?

2) According to the episode, the hull alone would help the ship withstand an hour without shields. The same hull that the Ori (remember them?) were able to easily rip through fairly easily.

3) The entire purpose of this situation was to become invisible to the sensors. Which means that there would be no need for them to go any deeper than that. So how much radiation would you need to be blind to sensors? Well, on Atlantis, for instance, 6 GT levels nukes were able to overload the sensors from geosynchronous orbit for several hours. Daedalus sensors can be overwhelmed by a non-lethal strong ionosphere. So it's mainly a matter of how good you think the Goa'uld sensors are by comparison.

4) Again, note MW's comments. The writers don't bother checking the exact numbers for such for coronas, any more than they bothered checking for the exact yields necessary to move a 137 km asteroid in "Fail Safe." Plot wise, the characters were only trying to surround themselves by enough radiation to drown out the sensors. It's doubtful that they would have any incentive to go much further than that.

That's the absolute anal retentive low end figure of the abysmal darkest depths of the blackest hole, and it's for a Ha'tak's shields, not even Anubis' supership's shields.

Just out of curiousity, what are the anal retentive low end figures for the fact that SG-10 was close enough to a black hole for time to slow to a near halt, without being ripped apart by gravitational forces?

I suppose that from that episode, I can conclude that all terrain humans must be as durable as superman, which you can then use to calculate the strength of their infantry weaponry.

Even 10% of the raw power necessary to knock off such a shield per second is still 6 times more powerful than Hiroshima.

Obviously not, or Baal would have absolutely no reason to take up that deal.

They did build those weapons anyway, and are still building more gatebusters

Yes, non-missiles warheads that they can consult with the IOA before actually using.

and more anticapship tactical warheads

Yes, the yields of which would have been determined by the same people who figured that 6 GT level nukes placed in orbit for a "one shot deal" would be sufficient for a main defense. You'd think that if GT level nukes were so easy to produce, they would either a) make a lot more or them, or b) make the ones they brought along much higher in yeild.

In "Pegasus Project," for instance, the nukes they use are only in the 26 MT range, because that's how much they though they would need to overload the stargate. But the funny thing, they only brought six of them. Now, if high end nukes were really that easy and cheap to make with the new cuts in funding and the new IOA oversight, you would expect them to be able to bring along a lot more than that.

Right now, you're trying to rewrite the show

Nope. I'm only citing what's already been established. Not only in the show, but behind the scenes.

BEAU BRIDGES: Stargate is a science fiction show, but, uh, [i]it has a real feel.[//i] That’s one of the things I’ve always liked about it. For instance, the Air Force, the real Air Force, is very involved. They give their blessing to all the stories, and so there’s a certain responsibility to, uh, reality. Then, when all the crazy stuff happens, it just makes it that much more believable. Stepping into the shoes of General Hank Landry – that’s my character’s name – was, uh, rather daunting. I didn’t know too much about generals, so I researched everyone from George Washington to General John Jumper, who is our current Chief Of Staff of the Air Force. He’s a fan of the show himself. He comes around the set.

Although the show obviously has far fetched scifi elements, they still try to make the actual military aspects fairly realistic in the context of the real world. That's the very thing that makes it work.

Having the other countries give the US vast amounts of funding so that we can equip out ship with nukes we don't need on a ship that doesn't answer to them is not realistic. Particularily when we've had numerous episodes where foreign nations have actually expressed this exact concern, which you still haven't address beyond circular reasoning of, "Well, we know they must use such high yield weapons because they need them to combat the wraith, and we know that they need them to combat the wraith because that's what they've used."