Megathread - Versus battles

[Schrodinger82]

The replicators would rather assimilate technology than destroy it

That's not what Replicarter said.

thats the only explanation, unless you think a few replicator controlled ha'taks can't equal the firepower of an Ori ship?

Maybe they can't.

Irrelevent seeing as the only direct hit from an arman was a weak spot which was explosed and unarmored.

You're thinking NML. I said Allies.

No it wasn't, it was crippled leaving it....

CALDWELL: Look, Doctor Weir, I wanna go after these *******s as much as you do, but the Daedalus is in no position to fight right now. Our shields are severely depleted and several decks are inaccessible. Even if we could catch up with them, I don’t know how long we’d last.

So your arguement has now turned to, black holes are nothing special in stargate and the ability to survive flying into the acceleration disk of one when shields are failing is nothing...

Would you like to explain why SG-10 wasn't ripped apart, or not? In order for the iris code to have been slowed down by a factor of 6, for instance, they would have to be moving at .986 the speed of light.

1) different sized wraith bolts
2) different sized wraith bolts doing different amounts of damage

Sure, when hitting completely different parts of the ship. The titanic, for instance, would have been fine if it had hit the iceberg head on.

ok, i see...So how would that affect to targets moving towards each other?

It would make it hard to move slowly enough to hit any one spot for a long enough period of time.

the fact is over a period of several minutes the deadalus was firing in the same general vancinity

How big is the "same general vancinity"?

My statement wasn't meant to be a serious point...

Okay. Other people have argued that in the past, so...

Moot point seeing as both hives hit the same area

By "same area," you're referring to a many 11 km across.

there are unarmored sections of hive ships, the explosions seem to be in these area's so they didn't blast through the armor...

There are unarmored sections of the hive ship several hundred meters across? What happens if the Ori hit one of those?

Because hive ships are huge and the secondary explosions were powerful enough to damage the entire ship.

And these same explosions didn't stop John from escaping from inside of the hive ship because?

well pretty close as i'd imagine that they'd want to maximise damage and it would have to be close seeing as the in space the blast radius isn't going to be as much and the nukes effectiveness is going to severely drop the further out it is.

It's pretty hard to maximize damage if the wraith can easily move around them, or simply shoot them down.

What makes you think they knew it was a nuke? For all they knew it was another piece of ancient technology...

Obviously they recognized that these were mines of some sort, or they wouldn't have hurled asteroids at them.

By firing into them when they were opened???

And the Wraith didn't bother to protect these exposed areas because?

[Mister Oragahn]

Saying that the world was created in 6 days and that there was no big bang is pretty simple too, but not very convincing.

Trying to ridiculize an analysis because you have no real point is doing no good.

Not all systems are equally efficient on how they process energy.

Ok, and? Those power sources were still necessary.

In one episode, SG-10 is pulled into the gravity of a black hole and accelerated to the point where time stops to a near halt. Just out of curiousity, how much physical strain do you think that would be, for them to accelerate at that speed without being ripped apart by gravitational forces? Is it because SG-10 is incredibly tough, or is it because, as MW, put it, "The Writers themselves don't think about these things as hard as you're thinking about them" when it comes to astronomical plot devices, like the physical stress of black holes?

Then the writers didn't think a lot about having the hiveship fire a few pounds of TNT at the planet in Sateda when they wanted the Wraith to kill the heroes at all costs. See, this awkward logic works both ways.
More, one of the standards you keep toggling on asks you to rationalize, in universe, the black hole event. The other standard tells you that arguing like we all do is pointless (kinda MW's comments, but more polite). So either you stick with one standard, and then try to come with a coherent theory that actually makes sense, or you think about it, and realize that your comments are out of place in a forum that is meant to provide in universe explanations.

Why not, if a few blocks of C4 can make kilometer wide holes? Did Hiroshima focus all it's energy in a narrow beam?

Since when the C4 blew such holes?
I only saw internal fires reaching to certain open zones.

Circular reason. We know that it must be exotic because MT and GT weaponry wouldn't be enough, and we know that MT and GT weaponry must not be enough because the weapon must be exotic.

First, it's spelt circular reasoning.
Secondly, stop ignoring what people say. I've been repeating myself like ten times, pointing to you that there's no circular reasoning here.
The nuke yields are not derived nor tied to the analysis of the lantean weapon, contrary to what you keep arguing, but to the simple conclusion resulting from the observation that the lowest warhead used by a 304 was already in the megaton range, and all the rest in the gigaton range.
These observations are completely independant of the lantean satellite defense system.
Therefore, there cannot be any circular reasoning.

YOU prove that the 304 come with nukes in the very low kiloton range, or you concede the point once and for all.

{snip}

Circular reasoning. "We know that Baal must have agreed to it because it was part of the deal, and we know that it must have been part of the deal because Baal agreed to it."

Go revise your definition of circular reasoning, because you have just no idea what it means. Putting the term in front of any of your replies does not magically turn them into viable arguments.
Baal had a deal that had him not threaten the people of Langara.
I guess carpetting the whole city with missing shots worth of several hundreds of megatons would have really fitted the deal. Not.

No, but it has a mental interface like a drone.

It has a mental interface. You have no proof that it's exactly the same. And again, it's not the same device.

Beckett himself makes the comparison. I trust him over you.

I do not deny his comparison, so you have no point.
Again, the transcript:

WEIR: Well I have another theory; we know that there is a mental component to using ancient technology.

BECKETT: You don't have to remind me; I experienced it first hand with that drone weapon back on Earth.

In no way he confirms it's exactly the same. He just agrees that there's *a* mental component to both systems. The comment is way too vague and open to interpretation. You're reading what you want to read.

Obviously not, or it would have headed straight towards the helicopter and chased after it, rather than taking four passes around the helicopter before diving into the snow.

1. You're denying the fact that John tried to dodge the projectile several times.
2. You ignore my comment about how Beckett would actually be disturbing the weapon.
3. You ignore the fact that, globally, the weapon was trying to hit the helicopter.
4. You ignore the fact that the drone barely missed its target.

In the end, you're exactly claiming that Beckett was trying to shoot the helicopter down, since it was not an act of the drone.
Exactly what I thought, and of course, clearly unlikely. {snip}.
There's just far more evidence that Beckett would not try to destroy the helicopter than there is to support the idea that he would.
{snip}

Okay, so you state that Beckett could direct the drone. Thus showing that O Neil and Sheppard could have direct the drone as well. Which also means that the would then be able to seek out weak points and major systems, somehting that Zelenka could not have done.

Concession accepted.

{snip}. I didn't not say control. I used the word influence, and mental order interference earlier on. {snip}

This, of course, means that there's absolutely no concession to find here.
{snip}

From the episode:

JACOB: This system is centered around a blue giant star. If we can move close enough to the choronisphere, the radiation should keep us well hidden.
JACK: Excuse me? Radiation?
JACOB: Well, the ship's hull will protect us ... for a while. (Danny looks worried and Jack fakes a smile) We're entering the choronisphere. The good news is that we won't show up in anyone else's sensors. The bad news is that our sensors will be blocked as well.
SAM: So when we're ready to go, we won't know if anyone's out there waiting for us. (Jacob grins and nods)
DANNY: How long do we have?
JACOB: About an hour without full shields. Ten hours with em. Sam ... wanna give me a hand? (She nods)

This is all lovely but what's your point? It does not deny the calculations.
Plus you should check the first parter transcript, as you'll see that the shields were already back on line, though not working at maximum capacity.

1) There are also comments like, "Since they weren’t on the surface, but also were less than one stellar radius away, the answer lies somewhere in between, probably about 2/5ths what it would be at the surface.". Where do they come up with these numbers? Jake says that they're entering the choronisphere, present tense, which means that they were still close to the edge. Do any of them have exact numbers for how far the edge of a corona extends from a blue star?

You know what a coronasphere is?

Well, it's a sphere, obviously, but technically, this term does NOT exist. It was possible to know how far the ship was from looking at the curvature of the sun, the minimal size of such a sun and the size of the Ha'tak. That way, you could know how far it was from the sun's surface, and one star radius from the photosphere was a good estimation.

2) According to the episode, the hull alone would help the ship withstand an hour without shields. The same hull that the Ori (remember them?) were able to easily rip through fairly easily.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but I've analyzed this source for such a long time and in such details that I'm well aware of most arguments people could come with. For example, you're wrong on the character's own comments. And it's even more amusing since you've just quoted him above.
He did not said "without shields". He said "without full shields".

3) The entire purpose of this situation was to become invisible to the sensors. Which means that there would be no need for them to go any deeper than that.

And they didn't. But that's irrelevant. The calcs were made based on their visual position.

So how much radiation would you need to be blind to sensors? Well, on Atlantis, for instance, 6 GT levels nukes were able to overload the sensors from geosynchronous orbit for several hours. Daedalus sensors can be overwhelmed by a non-lethal strong ionosphere. So it's mainly a matter of how good you think the Goa'uld sensors are by comparison.

Again, irrelevant. We take direct evidence, not some fancy pinky blue extrapolation.

{snip}

Just out of curiousity, what are the anal retentive low end figures for the fact that SG-10 was close enough to a black hole for time to slow to a near halt, without being ripped apart by gravitational forces?

In case you forgot {snip} I told you that it was hard for me to get an estimate on those numbers.
However, that's not the case with Enemies.

I suppose that from that episode, I can conclude that all terrain humans must be as durable as superman, which you can then use to calculate the strength of their infantry weaponry.

... that was downright {Snip}unnecessary.

Even 10% of the raw power necessary to knock off such a shield per second is still 6 times more powerful than Hiroshima.

Obviously not, or Baal would have absolutely no reason to take up that deal.

Stop switching sides. You made the claim that that was roughly what was needed to kick the shields down. I showed you that the amount of energy you argued for would have leveled the damn city when one of these bolts directly hit the buildings beneath (which of course did not happen despite the unfortunate hit).
{snip}.

Yes, non-missiles warheads that they can consult with the IOA before actually using.

1. Check spoilers for the Horizon platform. It must have gatebusters mounted on rockets.
2. The fact that certain warheads are used without a rocket is irrelevant. Stop insisting that it has any significance, because it has absolutely none.

You're just trying to find a way to deny the existence of further megaton, gigaton and even teraton warheads, just because... some were strapped to rockets and that would force the IOA/SGC to disclose the existence of the stargate program?...

Pardon???... it's like arguing that the warheads could not be painted in pink, otherwise the stargate program would have had to be disclosed...

...

{snip}

[Mister Oragahn]

Yes, the yields of which would have been determined by the same people who figured that 6 GT level nukes placed in orbit for a "one shot deal" would be sufficient for a main defense. You'd think that if GT level nukes were so easy to produce, they would either a) make a lot more or them, or b) make the ones they brought along much higher in yeild.

Obviously they're easy to product, since they only had to add a hand sized bit of naqahdah to a low kiloton Mark 12-A warhead to turn it into a 1000 megaton weapon of mass destruction.
Yes, so hard to come by.
A small rock of naqahdah is so rare these days btw.

In "Pegasus Project," for instance, the nukes they use are only in the 26 MT range, because that's how much they though they would need to overload the stargate. But the funny thing, they only brought six of them. Now, if high end nukes were really that easy and cheap to make with the new cuts in funding and the new IOA oversight, you would expect them to be able to bring along a lot more than that.

You actually understand what you type? In this very paragraph, you admit the 304 fired 26 MT nukes. You say *only*. Sorry to rain on your parade, but I hardly see how you can say only when it ruins two of your most redundant arguments regarding the attack in No Man's Land and the lantean satellite.
Hardly surprising though.

Nope. I'm only citing what's already been established. Not only in the show, but behind the scenes.

BEAU BRIDGES: Stargate is a science fiction show, but, uh, [i]it has a real feel.[//i] That’s one of the things I’ve always liked about it. For instance, the Air Force, the real Air Force, is very involved. They give their blessing to all the stories, and so there’s a certain responsibility to, uh, reality. Then, when all the crazy stuff happens, it just makes it that much more believable. Stepping into the shoes of General Hank Landry – that’s my character’s name – was, uh, rather daunting. I didn’t know too much about generals, so I researched everyone from George Washington to General John Jumper, who is our current Chief Of Staff of the Air Force. He’s a fan of the show himself. He comes around the set.

Although the show obviously has far fetched scifi elements, they still try to make the actual military aspects fairly realistic in the context of the real world. That's the very thing that makes it work.

Again, another double standard. One day you use the realism defense, another day you claim that the show is all screwed up, it's scifi, writers don't care about realism, therefore nothing is reliable and arguing in this forum is, by definition, pointless. Again, make a choice, but stop bumping left and right.
By the way. It's all... Just. Completely. Irrelevant.

Having the other countries give the US vast amounts of funding so that we can equip out ship with nukes we don't need on a ship that doesn't answer to them is not realistic. Particularily when we've had numerous episodes where foreign nations have actually expressed this exact concern, which you still haven't address beyond circular reasoning of, "Well, we know they must use such high yield weapons because they need them to combat the wraith, and we know that they need them to combat the wraith because that's what they've used."

Again, they have built plenty of warheads, and they're building even more of them.
Funny that your "it's only a show" standard does not apply here. Especially when it doesn not suit your views.
I mean, if it's a show, who cares if the army comes with plenty of weapons of doom from that cost a peny and are mass produced?
Who gives? They're already building more anyway!
Anyway, again, those warheads came in a plenty, and are still being built (sorry for repeating this, but it's a canon fact).
So no matter how much you whine about it, you can only deal with it or concede.

[Schrodinger82]

Ok, and? Those power sources were still necessary.

Yes, a Mark II generator ran out of juice lifting few dozen drones several hundred feet into the air and cause fairly minor explosions. I consider that to be fairly inefficient. Do you honestly watch the drone scene in the Siege Part II and conclude that we saw 120kt worth of damage? Heck, the act of turning just turning on the chair, using no drones whatsoever, still apparently requires massive power consumption.

Then the writers didn't think a lot about having the hiveship fire a few pounds of TNT at the planet in Sateda when they wanted the Wraith to kill the heroes at all costs.

Yep. Apaprently they don't seem to mind the idea that Wraith weapons are fairly low yield.

Since when the C4 blew such holes?

http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1...l/102x464.html

Secondly, stop ignoring what people say.

I didn't, I just pointed out that there was absolutely no basis for your claim other than the presumption that it was already true.

If you have direct evidence that the Mark III tacticals are multi-gigaton, and specifically the Mark III tacticals and not some entirely different weapon designed for entirely different purposes, then please, feel free to present it. Until then, it's not up to me to prove the negative, since I'm not the one making the claim.

Go revise your definition of circular reasoning, because you have just no idea what it means.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-question.html

Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true.

In this case, you're arguing that we know that Baal must have agreed to it because it was part of the deal, and we know that it must have been part of the deal because Baal agreed to it. Thereby assuming that the conclusion is true witin the premise.

I guess carpetting the whole city with missing shots worth of several hundreds of megatons would have really fitted the deal. Not.

Assuming that Ha'tak weapons are in that range to begin with. Which is part of the conclusion that you're including in your premise.

In no way he confirms it's exactly the same.

There's no way to confirm that the Puddle Jumper system for firing drones and the Orion system for firing drones is exactly the same either. Especially since the latter system apparently doesn't require a mental interface at all.

1. You're denying the fact that John tried to dodge the projectile several times.
2. You ignore my comment about how Beckett would actually be disturbing the weapon.
3. You ignore the fact that, globally, the weapon was trying to hit the helicopter.
4. You ignore the fact that the drone barely missed its target.

1. Yes, from a helicopter of limited speed and manuverability.
2. No I didn't. In fact, I pointed it out that it proves that Beckett DID have control over the drone, he just didn't have the experience in using it.
3. Oh, so you can read the drones mind, now?
4. Yes. Five times.

In the end, you're exactly claiming that Beckett was trying to shoot the helicopter down

Either find an exact quote, or drop this.

You should learn to read first. I didn't not say control. I used the word influence,

Which Jack and John could influence it just as easily, only to a far more effective degree. Concession accepted.

You know what a coronasphere is?

Well, it's a sphere, obviously, but technically, this term does NOT exist.

So basically, it can mean whatever the writers want it to mean. Which, in the context of this story, would be "close enough to make us blind to sensors." However much radiation it would take to blind them to sensors is however much radiation they would need to expose themselves too.

It was possible to know how far the ship was from looking at the curvature of the sun, the minimal size of such a sun and the size of the Ha'tak.

It's possible to know how far SG-10 was from the event horizon of the black hole at the time they typed in the iris code based on the effects of the time dilation (close enough to be moving 98.6% the speed of light). And in that case, we would be basing that on something that was actually written into the actual script, rather than the VFX teams, on a show where you yourself admitted that the scale is rarely accurate.

Keep in mind that in Enemies, you also have statements like this:

JACOB: It's gonna take 125 years to get back.

(Later)

SAM: The ship has now reached over 800 times it's previous max. speed.
JACOB: All right! We'll be there pretty soon.

125 years divided by 800 is "pretty soon"? Doubt it. Again, see MW's comments. But you would like me to believe that the writers intended to detail exactly how strong that Ha'tak shields were in this episode, and by extension the strength of Ha'tak weapons, by specifying the exact angles and dimensions in their script and hoping that people at home would calculate it out.

He did not said "without shields". He said "without full shields".

He also said, "JACOB: Well, the ship's hull will protect us ... for a while."

In case you forgot (once more), I told you that it was hard for me to get an estimate on those numbers.

SAM: There's a repeating signal. Lieutenant, play it through the computer. We can run it a lot faster.
GRAHAM: Trying 200 percent.
[The lieutenant types the command into the computer.]
SAM: Go 6.
[Graham types her order into the computer and it becomes a signal it recognizes as Graham and Sam look at the monitor.]
GRAHAM: Computer now recognizes the signal as SG-10's iris code.

According to relatively, you would need to go about .986c in order for time to slow down that much. Which means that they would be right near the edge of the event horizon, certainly quite a bit closer than the 304 was moving (who were capable of escaping the gravity well despite the fact that their engines move nowhere near as fast.). Yet despite this, SG-10 was not torn apart by the tidal forces of gravity, but they were also physically capable of dialing the stargate and inputing the iris code.

Which means that SG-10, flesh and blood humans, apparently have managed to top the best Wraith durabiility feat so far. So are you willing to say that flesh and blood humans are more durable than a wraith hive ship, based on similar evidence? Or is the evidence unreliable altogether? I'm betting the latter.

Another point: If the Daedalus really did have to deal with the friction and heat of the acretion disc, then how would it be able to attain the speeds necessary to reach escape velocity, since such friction would have slowed it down considerably? We know that that the Daedalus isn't capable of going anywhere near light speed, much less in a fraction of a second. The only way it could escape would be if it was far enough from the event horizon so that friction wasn't a real issue.

1. Check spoilers for the Horizon platform. It must have gatebusters mounted on rockets.
2. The fact that certain warheads are used without a rocket is irrelevant. Stop insisting that it has any significance, because it has absolutely none.

1. What's that, an upcoming episode? Becuase I"m not seeing it.
2. http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/start1/chron.htm

"Presidents Bush and Gorbachev sign the "Treaty on the Reduction and Limitation of Strategic Offensive Arms" (START I), which calls for the United States and the Soviet Union to reduce their strategic nuclear forces over seven years to 1,600 SNDVs and 6,000 "accountable" warheads, of which no more than 4,900 may be on ballistic missiles. This will result in a cut in strategic warheads of 25 to 35 percent."

So yes, at least one example where missile based warheads and non-missile based warheads are treated different.

"On May 31, the sides sign the Ballistic Missile Launch Notification Agreement. Designed to reduce the risk of nuclear war, the agreement requires each side to notify the other at least 24 hours in advance of all ICBM and SLBM launches."

Again, emphasis on international oversight in regards to missiles.

Meeting in Washington, President Reagan and General Secretary Gorbachev agree that their START negotiators should build upon the areas of agreement in the joint draft START treaty text being developed in Geneva. These include:
A ceiling of 1,600 SNDVs with 6,000 warheads.
A ceiling of 1,540 warheads on 154 heavy missiles.
A 50 percent reduction in ballistic missile throw-weight.

So yes, there are ceilings in place on the number of heavy missiles, which is drastically lower than the ceiling on warheads.

Obviously they're easy to product, since they only had to add a hand sized bit of naqahdah to a low kiloton Mark 12-A warhead to turn it into a 1000 megaton weapon of mass destruction.
Yes, so hard to come by.

Which was never successfully tested. Nuclear weapons can be tricky things to make. It's a precise process, and lots of things can go wrong. By season four, they're doing tests on nukes that weren't even powerful enough to destroy the stargate. We learn by season 10 that that would put its final yield at less than 26 megatons.

Bauer: The Pentagon feels that the Stargate project, while exposing Earth to considerable danger has yet to produce any practical returns. Now we've been working on a device designed specifically to take advantage of this Naquada enhancing effect. I'd like you to take part in the operation.

Odd thing to say, if the previous design had proved viable.

A small rock of naqahdah is so rare these days btw.

Bauer: At ease. How are things progressing Major?
Carter: Well the hardware's almost ready. But the problem is the ratio of Naquada to lithium hydride. According to my calculations we don't have enough weapons grade material to complete the bomb.
Bauer: Then we'll just have to get some more.
Carter: Sir we're talking about refined Naquada. It's extremely rare.

Did they know that they had to refine the Naqudah in season one? How much weapons grade material do they actually have?

In this very paragraph, you admit the 304 fired 26 MT nukes

Wrong. They beamed them.

Me: Although the show obviously has far fetched scifi elements, they still try to make the actual military aspects fairly realistic in the context of the real world. That's the very thing that makes it work.

You: Again, another double standard. One day you use the realism defense, another day you claim that the show is all screwed up, it's scifi, writers don't care about realism, therefore nothing is reliable and arguing in this forum is, by definition, pointless.

Pay attention to what I write before accusing me of a double standard. I make the distinction between the scifi elements and military elements very, very clear.

[Ouroboros]

Nope. The ROF can be seen in Misbegotten. The time and yeild came from you, in reference to the same episode. You can see bolts hitting the ground as the ship is still firing, which means that's it would have been firing the entire time that it takes bolts to reach the ground (several hours, according to you).

I was never describing what took place in Misbegotten when I talked about the the inability of bolts moving at the speed in Sateda to reach the surface in a timely fashion. How did you manage to read all those posts where I talked about jumpers under fire, messing with a duel, and even post things yourself that included quotes from Sateda and then go on to jump to assuming we're talking about misbegotten.

BTW, it's amazing how you constantly refer to fight scenes as though they take place in real time ("They were able to drop the shields down X percent in less than a minute!"), while also insisting that firing pattern in Misbegotten takes several hours.

No more amazing than how you always seem to invoke the "not real time" excuse everytime something that can be reasoanbly said to have been depicted in more or less real time makes the Wraith look too potent for your liking.

I'm still waiting to hear why we should assume that those bolts from Sateda represent the only and most powerful weapons a hive has to. Also aside from your peculiar dodge to misbegotten you've never even attempted to address the bolt speed issue.

The do when when the light is powerful enough, yes. For instance, a handheld green laser powered by AA battteries can shine a clear line miles long, thanks to dust and particulate found in the air normally.

That is not the case here. The zoomed out shots that were posted prove it. I don't even see how you can still argue this point. Anyone can look at those pics and see you are simply wrong about this.

When the entire hive ship exploded in part one, the explosion we saw was barely powerful enough to light up the satellite itself, much less lighting up clouds from orbit.

So what. Something as huge and complex as a hiveship can probably blow up/die in a whole host of different ways depending on specifically what kills it.

SHEPPARD: Yes, but I recommend keeping a couple in reserve.

EVERETT: Negative. We're only going to get one shot at this.

Everett's choice to deploy the mines all at once does not change the fact that multiple individual mines were constructed and could just as easily have been used on multiple targets.

The moon landing was nearly 40 years old, and we haven't invested much to duplicate the feat since. What's your point?

There's been a whole slew of very good reasons to continue to escalate or at least maintain warhead firepower in SGverse, unlike moontrips in ours.

Various stuff about assorted Earth treaties governing nuclear testing

These treaties have all apparently already been violated numerous times by the SGC and they continue to be violated today.

Are you really still going to stand there and act oblivious to this fact?

The SGC has already used gigaton level nuclear warheads.

They have already placed nuclear warheads, MKIX warheads even, on spacecraft which could deliver them by instant teleportation! How's that for an unbalancing first strike weapon, and yet it seems the Chinese and Russians aren't screaming to high heaven that the teleporters be removed immediately from all 304s. We can see this but you also expect us to beleive that they will compain if those same nukes go on a missile instead, to the extent that the SGC would have no choice but to give in to their demands.

Your attempt to take various cold war era treaties drawn up to govern things like nuclear testing on Earth and apply them to space, or to assume that they're part of this antarctic treaty, or that the SGC even cares about honouring them despite numerous observable violations, is completely and utterly baseless.

I asked you for proof from the antarctic treaty which might have actually had a chance of including some rules governing outer space and other galaxies. You've utterly failed to produce any such evidence of course because it does not actually exist in the canon.

The idea that the SGC is bound by some nebulous set of conditions you've made up in some situations (missiles) but not others (mines and teleporter delivered nukes) is something which exists only within your own imagination.

[Buba uognarf]

That's not what Replicarter said.



Maybe they can't.

by few i meant few dozen seeing as thats how many replicator controlled ha'taks were in oribt, i reckon they could easily top and ori warship in firepower...

You're thinking NML. I said Allies.

sorry, when has an amram ever hit a hive ship outside of No Mans Lands?

CALDWELL: Look, Doctor Weir, I wanna go after these *******s as much as you do, but the Daedalus is in no position to fight right now. Our shields are severely depleted and several decks are inaccessible. Even if we could catch up with them, I don’t know how long we’d last.

it was still in working order when it got there, the wraith crippled it in a couple of hits to a previously untouched part of the hull...

Would you like to explain why SG-10 wasn't ripped apart, or not? In order for the iris code to have been slowed down by a factor of 6, for instance, they would have to be moving at .986 the speed of light.

I have no idea how they survived, you're going to now base you arguement on you view that in stargate black holes are nothing special???

there's really nothing i can say so i'll this point rather than debate it...

Sure, when hitting completely different parts of the ship. The titanic, for instance, would have been fine if it had hit the iceberg head on.

Wrong, the ships were hit in the same places the sides of both ships were pretty much blanketed with fire so anything the larger blasts would hit would have also been hit by the smaller ones which were far more numerous...

this shows that different sized bolts cause different amounts of damage...there's no escaping this!

i have direct evidence showing hive ship with different bolt sizes doing different amounts of damage in the same area, if anything the smaller bolts should have done more damage seeing as there were more of them and the hive was already damaged, but it still took longer to destroy the enemy hive...

you can't debunk it, please just except facts...

It would make it hard to move slowly enough to hit any one spot for a long enough period of time.

ok, you know what prove it, i don't need to debate it with you. Prove that rail guns can damage hive ships without firing into dart bays otherwise don't make the point because it's pure speculation and adds nothing. As far

How big is the "same general vancinity"?

see above post,

Okay. Other people have argued that in the past, so...

it's fine, but i wouldn't intentionally use circular reasoning...

By "same area," you're referring to a many 11 km across.

No i'm refering to an entire side of a hive ship which was blanketed by fire both times...anything hit by the smaller bombardment would have been hit by the larger one if they were equal, my evidence shows that they are not seeing as one did far more damage...

There are unarmored sections of the hive ship several hundred meters across? What happens if the Ori hit one of those?

They'd cause far more damage, but the ori would first have to maneuver into a position to hit these areas, these area are generally on the underside of the ship or around the dart bays...

And these same explosions didn't stop John from escaping from inside of the hive ship because?

Obiviously these explosions weren't as serious as you think.

It's pretty hard to maximize damage if the wraith can easily move around them, or simply shoot them down.

They were counting on the fact that the wraith wouldn't be able to detect them, the wraith did and detonated them from a safe distance not knowing what they were. I fail to see your point? The mines were meant to be detonated at close range seeing as they work on proximity...

Obviously they recognized that these were mines of some sort, or they wouldn't have hurled asteroids at them.

Not neccessarily, and what does that prove? the mines were obviously very small so i doubt the hives could hit them with their weapons effectivly and they didn't want to sacrifice darts.

And the Wraith didn't bother to protect these exposed areas because?

The fact is these area were exposed, notice the deadalus didn't fire until the bays were open this implies that he would have been unable to pierce the bays in sufficant time despite them being unarmored.

The darts bays are filled with something explosion it's been said a least twice that firing into the dart bays causes secondary explosions...


show me rail guns piercing the hull of a hive ship, or drop the point i can't be bothered to debate a point which you have no evidence of

[kirmit]

They'd cause far more damage, but the ori would first have to maneuver into a position to hit these areas, these area are generally on the underside of the ship or around the dart bays...

http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...l/nml0567.html
If you look at that you can see the dart bays are pretty high up and not protected by the hull armour. Judging from 'counterstrike'

Spoiler:

The ori ship was able to target the mountain very specifically from space

they'd have no trouble targeting the bays and taking out the weaker points of the hive.

[Buba uognarf]

http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...l/nml0567.html
If you look at that you can see the dart bays are pretty high up and not protected by the hull armour. Judging from 'counterstrike'

Spoiler:

The ori ship was able to target the mountain very specifically from space

they'd have no trouble targeting the bays and taking out the weaker points of the hive.

assuming this is a straight fight, they'd start off facing eachother head on so while the ori are quite capable of moving to hit the hive in weak areas it's not quite that easy...

and thats if they'd even bother...

[Schrodinger82]

I was never describing what took place in Misbegotten when I talked about the the inability of bolts moving at the speed in Sateda to reach the surface in a timely fashion.

http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....&postcount=121

Me: Just out of curiousity, how long does it take the bolts to reach the ground in Misbegotten?

You: Well going by the onscreen velocity and assuming the hiveship was only around 800km up in orbit probably a few hours actually.

That is not the case here. The zoomed out shots that were posted prove it. I don't even see how you can still argue this point. Anyone can look at those pics and see you are simply wrong about this.

Because...?

So what. Something as huge and complex as a hiveship can probably blow up/die in a whole host of different ways depending on specifically what kills it.

So when the entire ship blows up in Siege Part I, obviously, there was something they missed.

There's been a whole slew of very good reasons to continue to escalate or at least maintain warhead firepower in SGverse, unlike moontrips in ours.

Sure, if you rely entirely on circular reasoning.

These treaties have all apparently already been violated numerous times by the SGC and they continue to be violated today.

Right. Because there's absolutely no difference between violating a treaty and getting caught, and violating a treaty and not getting caught.

The SGC has already used gigaton level nuclear warheads.

That were never sucessfully tested, as evident by season four. Or it was tested, only to fail.

SAMUELS: Yes sir. As you know, a small amount of the raw ore was found by SG5 and brought back some months ago.

Carter: Well the hardware's almost ready. But the problem is the ratio of Naquada to lithium hydride. According to my calculations we don't have enough weapons grade material to complete the bomb.
Bauer: Then we'll just have to get some more.
Carter: Sir we're talking about refined Naquada. It's extremely rare.

So in season two, SGC had assumed that raw ore (e.g., unrefined) would be sufficient. By season four, they learn that they need weapons grade naquada, and apparently they don't even have enough to make a sub 26 MT bomb. There's more, of course:

SAM: Weapons grade naquada is extremely dense. Sir, do realize how many Naquada reactors a single bar like that could power?
JACK: No.
SAM: A lot!

DAVIS: I'm sure the room is bugged but it doesn't matter. They already know everything that we're talking about. And they might as well know that we are never going to turn over refined weapons grade Naqahdah.
DANIEL: I'm talking about Naqahdah generator technology, a clean and safe source of power.
DAVIS: Which requires refined Naqahdah to work. Dr Jackson, you of all people realise the explosive power of this material.
DANIEL: Yeah, so they can blow us up 200 times over instead of just 100. What difference does it make?

McKAY (angry, but also on the verge of tears): Look, you seriously have to stop interrupting my last thoughts. I mean, this is important stuff you need to hear. (He looks round and sees that he has got everybody’s attention. Zelenka nods at him to continue.) Now – if you’re here for more than a year, I’ve left some notes on how to roll blackouts to effectively maintain your power requirements and-and, oh, tell everyone that I was, I was inches away from a Theory of Unification but uh, uh, the notes, they were lost when I died saving the ...

So the same naquadah used to enhance weapons can also be used to fuel naquadah reactors. Which apparently they're low on. One of the more recurring themes for both shows is power. With that in mind, it doesn't make much sense to unnecessarily waste vast quantities of weapons grade naquadah for no other reason than "because we can." Because a) there are lots of reasons against it, and b) they might not be able to in the first place.

We're also expected, at the very least, to help these nations develop their naquadah generator programs, which means that we have to give them weapons grade naquadah. Now, if we start making personal nukes enhanced by weapons grade naquadah, then it becomes very hard for us to justify the fact that they shouldn't be able to do the same, for the sake of international balance. And it's doubtful that the US wants that.

How's that for an unbalancing first strike weapon, and yet it seems the Chinese and Russians aren't screaming to high heaven that the teleporters be removed immediately from all 304s.

And why do you think that is?

CHEKOV: The X303? Research and development of the hyperdrive alone has cost them over two billion. And it still doesn??t function properly. They will spend a lot more money and risk the lives of their people perfecting the design. Then, we'll get the blueprints and build our own ship in a fraction of the time for half the cost.
KINSEY: Once again I apologise gentlemen. Seems a politician??s work is never done.
CHEKOV to CHINESE: You could have the same deal. (Speaks in Russian to his aide)

JACKSON: well can you blame them? I mean…3 years ago we promised to share all off-world technology.
MITCHELL: of a non military nature.
JACKSON: That wasn't in the original wording of the agreement.

Oh, that's right, because they expect to recieve the same technology.

Not to mention the fact that the nukes can only be transported by the Asgard who can override the default codes. And let's face it, if the Asgard are mad at China and Russia, then they have bigger problems on their hands.

We can see this but you also expect us to beleive that they will compain if those same nukes go on a missile instead, to the extent that the SGC would have no choice but to give in to their demands.

CARTER: The Korelev log indicated that they were attempting to use the rings to get a nuke through a fluctuation in the Ori ships shields that was coinciding with the firing of their main weapons.

So the Korelev had nukes on board. Do you think that the US would trust Russia and the rest of the world with multi-GT tactical missiles fired from the untouchable space ship anymore than Russia and the rest of the world would trust the US?

I asked you for proof from the antarctic treaty which might have actually had a chance of including some rules governing outer space and other galaxies.

The Antartic Treaty is the starting place for SGA, and it's the reason that SGA is an international effort.

The idea that the SGC is bound by some nebulous set of conditions you've made up in some situations (missiles) but not others (mines and teleporter delivered nukes) is something which exists only within your own imagination.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/start1/chron.htm

Meeting in Washington, President Reagan and General Secretary Gorbachev agree that their START negotiators should build upon the areas of agreement in the joint draft START treaty text being developed in Geneva. These include:
A ceiling of 1,600 SNDVs with 6,000 warheads.
A ceiling of 1,540 warheads on 154 heavy missiles.
A 50 percent reduction in ballistic missile throw-weight.

So yes, the ceiling on warheads is different from the ceiling on heavy missiles. I know you'd like to believe that this came entirely out of my imagination, but my imagination isn't anywhere near strong enough for to influence internation military policy. And even if it was, hey, all the more reason to listen to me, right?

[Schrodinger82]

by few i meant few dozen seeing as thats how many replicator controlled ha'taks were in oribt

Apparently they had their hands full, or they wouldn't have sent only one ship to the ground.

i reckon they could easily top and ori warship in firepower...

Doubtful, sicne they weren't killing the Ha'taks in a single blast.

sorry, when has an amram ever hit a hive ship outside of No Mans Lands?

Allies. The 302 scene. Most of the missiles get intercepted, but one makes it through. I've stated this on numerous occasions.

it was still in working order when it got there

Except for the part where it was "in no position to fight right now."

I have no idea how they survived, you're going to now base you arguement on you view that in stargate black holes are nothing special???

The alternative is that SG-10 is just super tough. Which one do you prefer?

Wrong, the ships were hit in the same places the sides of both ships were pretty much blanketed with fire so anything the larger blasts would hit would have also been hit by the smaller ones which were far more numerous...

So if I hit someone in the chest from 100 feet away, I'm going to hit the same amount of vitals as if I tried to hit the same person from 5 feet away? Assume in both situations that I'm using the same semi-automatic pistol, and the guy makes no attempt to move.

Prove that rail guns can damage hive ships without firing into dart bays

Obviously, Caldwell must be doing it for a reason. Again, with no compelling evidence either way, I trust his judgement over yours.

Obiviously these explosions weren't as serious as you think.

Nope. And yet, they still managed to make large holes on the side, despite not being very powerful.

They were counting on the fact that the wraith wouldn't be able to detect them, the wraith did and detonated them from a safe distance not knowing what they were.

They wouldn't need to detonate them at a safe distance if they could simply fly around them. And even if they hadn't detected them, the odds that they would be within striking distance of a short range mine is highly unlikely.

Not neccessarily, and what does that prove? the mines were obviously very small so i doubt the hives could hit them with their weapons effectivly and they didn't want to sacrifice darts.

Right. So the mines are too small to shoot down with their weapons from a safe distance, but obviously, they have absolutely no problem with physically tractoring and launching 100 asteroids from the nearby asteroid belt one by one, and detonating them that way.

The fact is these area were exposed, notice the deadalus didn't fire until the bays were open this implies that he would have been unable to pierce the bays in sufficant time despite them being unarmored.

Or that they just wouldn't have been able to in a timely manner.

assuming this is a straight fight, they'd start off facing eachother head on so while the ori are quite capable of moving to hit the hive in weak areas it's not quite that easy...

The Hive ships often turn to the side in combat, probably because that's where most of their guns are.

[Mister Oragahn]

Yes, a Mark II generator ran out of juice lifting few dozen drones several hundred feet into the air and cause fairly minor explosions. I consider that to be fairly inefficient. Do you honestly watch the drone scene in the Siege Part II and conclude that we saw 120kt worth of damage? Heck, the act of turning just turning on the chair, using no drones whatsoever, still apparently requires massive power consumption.

I actually finely supports my point, as you don't necessarily see, in terms of DET, the energy consumed by a weapon's systems.
Which is extremely similar to the lantean weapon.

Yep. Apaprently they don't seem to mind the idea that Wraith weapons are fairly low yield.

BS.
The Hive. Misbegotten.

Since when the C4 blew such holes?

http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/101/linz/102x464.jpg

http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/101/linz/102x365.jpg

Don't even bother talking about the smoke cloud size. Fires grow. It's normal that system catching fire would actually feed the fire and make it spread.
The biggest plumes of fire come from the surface, where the fire could have actually been already eating its way through the forest.

I didn't, I just pointed out that there was absolutely no basis for your claim other than the presumption that it was already true.

You're again {snip} ignoring what I said.

If you have direct evidence that the Mark III tacticals are multi-gigaton, and specifically the Mark III tacticals and not some entirely different weapon designed for entirely different purposes, then please, feel free to present it. Until then, it's not up to me to prove the negative, since I'm not the one making the claim.

You don't get it, do you? YOU are the one claiming that the 304 come with warheads of yields weaker than all the yields seen thus far.
The burden lies on you to prove that such weaker warheads exist. I have all evidence on my side to show that warheads seen thus far range from several megatons to several gigatons. You have nothing. That's the crux of the matter here, and you're just going round and round with lousy argumentation fallacies. And you're not doing this only with me, but with Ouroboros and Buba.
You never even attempted to provide evidence that there are weaker warheads than the megaton ones, nevermind if we asked you to do so multiple times. Nevermind if you should have done it before we even requested to see your evidence. You had enough chances to try support your argument. You've wasted them, too bad for you. I accept your concession.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-question.html

Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true.

In this case, you're arguing that we know that Baal must have agreed to it because it was part of the deal, and we know that it must have been part of the deal because Baal agreed to it. Thereby assuming that the conclusion is true witin the premise.

Ah, priceless. 82 knows a link to argumentation fallacies!
Doesn't mean you understand what it means, or that you're able to recognize them.
The fact that you keep altering my words to build a false flawed argument does not help you. You've basically pasted what you said in your previous message, despite my explanation.
So we're going to play that little game until you get tired.
Baal had a deal that had him not threaten the people of Langara.
I guess carpetting the whole city with missing shots worth of several hundreds of megatons would have really fitted the deal. Not.
If you can't understand the implications of such simple and crystal clear clauses, I can't help you.

YFP: "Lord Ba'al..."

BA'AL: "Where is your master? Why do you allow this...Shol'va to appear before me?"

TEAL'C: "I am here to present an offer."

TEAL'C: "We have made and agreement with another system lord named Ba'al. If we give him the location of this world, he will bring a fleet and destroy Anubis."

NOOR: "You propose to bring more of these Goa'uld to our world?" TEAL'C: "For the moment, Anubis is vulnerable. He has but one ship and is preoccupied. But he believes his position to be secure because he knows the other system lords are unaware of this place."

CMDR: "And if Anubis is destroyed, how do we know this Ba'al will leave us alone?"

TEAL'C: "That is part of the agreement."

[sarcasm]I mean, it's fairly obvious that leveling the entire city would exactly fit an the agreement about not causing the Langarans any trouble![/sarcasm]


[quote]Assuming that Ha'tak weapons are in that range to begin with. Which is part of the conclusion that you're including in your premise.

YOU claimed they were of that yield, because you claimed that the Ha'taks brought Anubis' ship's shields down through raw power.
I have demonstrated that it cannot be, or those missing bolts, even at 1% of what's necessary to overcome old gen Ha'tak shields in one second, would have destroyed the entire city.

There's no way to confirm that the Puddle Jumper system for firing drones and the Orion system for firing drones is exactly the same either. Especially since the latter system apparently doesn't require a mental interface at all.

Ah but the problem here is that they're ALL drones. Those weapons are extremely versatile in their attack modes.

[Mister Oragahn]

1. You're denying the fact that John tried to dodge the projectile several times.
2. You ignore my comment about how Beckett would actually be disturbing the weapon.
3. You ignore the fact that, globally, the weapon was trying to hit the helicopter.
4. You ignore the fact that the drone barely missed its target.

1. Yes, from a helicopter of limited speed and manuverability.
2. No I didn't. In fact, I pointed it out that it proves that Beckett DID have control over the drone, he just didn't have the experience in using it.
3. Oh, so you can read the drones mind, now?
4. Yes. Five times.

1. Irrelevant. John made the manoeuvre. That's what counts.
2. Again, BS. If he had CONTROL on the weapon, as you claim, never would have the weapon tried to shoot down a helicopter, or that it means that Beckett was trying to shoot down the helicopter. Hence my assertion that Beckett was, at best, disturbing the weapons' own "decision". I'm sorry for you, but that makes thousand more times more sense than claiming that Beckett was controlling a weapon trying to kill people for no apparent reason. This claim of yours is cretinous!
3. I was not speaking about the weapon's mind here, but about it's noticed agressive behaviour. The one you attribute to Beckett for {Snip} reasons.
4. Doesn't matter how many times it missed, as the Doctor in the chair was trying to save people and switch the weapon off.

Basically, your theory about how Beckett was controlling the weapon and trying to shoot down the helicopter is of the highest {Snip} ever, and you're just arguing here because you don't want to concede a point that you may be the only one on this damn planet to support.

In the end, you're exactly claiming that Beckett was trying to shoot the helicopter down

Either find an exact quote, or drop this.

No, YOU drop this, because YOU are the one claiming that Beckett was controlling a weapon trying to kill people.
I'm afraid you don't understand {Snip} that we're dealing with a binary issue, no more no less.
I told you the drone was the one responsible of trying to destroy the helicopter, as it was independantly tracking the target.
This was supported by dialogue. Rogue drone and all that.
You said that it is not the case, that it was not drone which was trying to shoot down the helicopter.
Therefore, it had to be Beckett, which is ridiculous.
You said it's not him. He did not try to destroy the helicopter. But at the same time you still claim that he controlled the weapon.

The demonstration ends there. {Snip}. Just assume {Snip}your claim and let it rest.

You should {Snip} read first. I didn't not say control. I used the word influence,

Which Jack and John could influence it just as easily, only to a far more effective degree. Concession accepted.

*sigh*
Not only do you literally leave half of my sentence out, but you're missing the point that John and Jack were in the damn helicopter! How do you think they could influence the freaking drone??? Huh? With what? Super psychic woopteedo powers out of the blue???
Riiiiight.

{Snip}.

So basically, it can mean whatever the writers want it to mean. Which, in the context of this story, would be "close enough to make us blind to sensors." However much radiation it would take to blind them to sensors is however much radiation they would need to expose themselves too.

That's why we needed to estimate how close to the sun the ship was by looking at the visuals.
Plus masking yourself with star radiations is not going to be easy since Carter was still able to detect the stargate entering the photosphere of the sun in that episode where they destroyed Apophis' fleet.
Tough sensors, but that's largely irrelevant since what counts is what was seen anyway.

It's possible to know how far SG-10 was from the event horizon of the black hole at the time they typed in the iris code based on the effects of the time dilation (close enough to be moving 98.6% the speed of light). And in that case, we would be basing that on something that was actually written into the actual script, rather than the VFX teams, on a show where you yourself admitted that the scale is rarely accurate.

{Snip} It's not because there's a mistake in one episode (if there's any) that it applies to another episode where there could be none.
{Snip}

Keep in mind that in Enemies, you also have statements like this:

JACOB: It's gonna take 125 years to get back.

(Later)

SAM: The ship has now reached over 800 times it's previous max. speed.
JACOB: All right! We'll be there pretty soon.

125 years divided by 800 is "pretty soon"? Doubt it.

{Snip}
That's 0.15625 year. Or less than two months. Don't you think it's actually fair for Jacob to call that relatively "pretty soon", since hours earlier, they would all be dead of age even before being half way back home? Of course it is!

Again, see MW's comments. But you would like me to believe that the writers intended to detail exactly how strong that Ha'tak shields were in this episode, and by extension the strength of Ha'tak weapons, by specifying the exact angles and dimensions in their script and hoping that people at home would calculate it out.

Again, stop switching standards. Either you accept MW's vision, {Snip}, or you try to {Snip}make the effort to bridge apparent holes and inconsistencies, {Snip}.

Which is NOT CONSTRUCTIVE, {Snip}

{Snip}

Ciao.

[crockettmatt]

I actually thought this might happen when the Wraith ships began to jump to the milky way. At first I thought that there was no competition but reading both arguments I reconsidered.

Pro Wraith:
-They held their own against the ancients, why not the Ori?

Pro Ori:
-They have the same technology as the ancients (and lets not forget that the ancients only left pegasus because they could see no way of winning not because they were losing)
-There is an entire galaxy of worshippers waiting to fight if required
-The earth ships manage to hold their own against the wraith hive ships (although this is largely due to luck), nukes when they get through can cause considerable damage and earth shields can hold off several hits from wraith weapons, however when in battle with the ori, no damage was caused to the ori ships, and the ori ships needed only fire one shot to dispatch our ships
-On top of this the ori are themselves a weapon (albeit in the form of the orosi (however its spelt)), capable of not only technological supremacy.

Basically, the wraith would be screwed but it might take a little longer than the invasion of the milky way

[Schrodinger82]

I actually finely supports my point, as you don't necessarily see, in terms of DET, the energy consumed by a weapon's systems.

Non-sequitor.

The Hive. Misbegotten.

Circular reasoning.

http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/101/linz/102x365.jpg

And?

Don't even bother talking about the smoke cloud size. Fires grow.

Then it's amazing how John and company manage to escape the 11 km hive ship in a timely fashion, despite the growing heat and smoke inhalation. Perhaps John can hold his breath for several minutes at a time, while also running at top speed, and avoiding the Wraith troops in the way?

It's normal that system catching fire would actually feed the fire and make it spread.

It's not so normal that they would blow out massive chunks of hull in the process, which occurs the moment the explosives detonate.

{Snip}

The burden lies on you to prove that such weaker warheads exist.

HARRIMAN (over radio): General Hammond says the President has authorised deployment of a ten kiloton nuclear bomb on your command, sir.

Now, granted, this wasn't a standard tactical missile fired from a 304. But then, neither were the weapons in your own example. Here's another:

CARTER: The Korelev log indicated that they were attempting to use the rings to get a nuke through a fluctuation in the Ori ships shields that was coinciding with the firing of their main weapons.

So the Korelev had nukes on board. We know that they have weapons grade naquadah for their generator program. But are you telling me that the US would be perfectly calm about not only giving the Russians a 304 (which they had to), but allowing the Russians to arm that 304 with naquadah enhanced warheads? Again, all the more reason to avoid the arms race altogether.

Ah, priceless. 82 knows a link to argumentation fallacies!

And you apparently know how to use them. Really, really well.

[sarcasm]I mean, it's fairly obvious that leveling the entire city would exactly fit an the agreement about not causing the Langarans any trouble![/sarcasm]

1) "Not causing the Langarans any trouble" wasn't the agreement. The agreement was, "And if Anubis is destroyed, how do we know this Ba'al will leave us alone." e.g., won't enslave them. Note how the characters are only worried about what will happen to them after Anubis is destroyed. Not a single one of them is worried about what will happen to them while Anubis is destroyed, e.g., getting caught in the crossfire. Hence, the characters don't seem to be particularily worried on this.

2) Obviously, Baal already was causing them trouble, evidence by the fact that he was blowing up building and probably targets on the surface as well. So either "not causing the Langarans any trouble" wasn't part of the agreement, or Baal had no concern about what the agreement was at that point. Which makes sense, because thye make frequent references to the fact that Baal could not be trusted. Either way, not only is your entire argument circular, but it's also contradicted by the show.

TEAL'C: "Lord Yu can no longer be permitted to command the opposition to Anubis. His Jaffa will follow your orders in his name, but others will not. And we need the combined force of the system lords."
YFP: "None of them can be trusted."
TEAL'C: "Nonetheless, one must be chosen." A signal is heard in the background. Yu's First Prime turns to see what it is.
YFP: "The signal is coming through." We see Ba'al on the main screen.
BA'AL: "What is the meaning of this?
YFP: "Lord Ba'al..."
BA'AL: "Where is your master? Why do you allow this...Shol'va to appear before me?"
TEAL'C: "I am here to present an offer."
BA'AL: "I will not listen to the words of a traitor."
TEAL'C: "Then you will miss an opportunity to rid yourself of Anubis forever."
Ba'al appears to reconsider.

The only reason that Ba'al takes up the deal is for the chance to destroy Anubis. That's the only thing that Ba'al has to gain from the deal. There is absolutely no reason why he would put that goal in jeopardy and turn his power levels down by a factor of infinity and risk allowing Anubis to escape just so that he could keep his word to a Shol'va. Especially since you have yet to prove that this was part of the deal in the first place and that it would have to be part of the deal without relying on circular reasoning, and have yet to give a single reason why Ba'al would keep his end of the bargain if it meant risking the one thing he had to gain.

Remember, it's up to you to prove that X was part of the deal. If you can't do that, then you can't do that. It's not up to me to prove a negative.

Ah but the problem here is that they're ALL drones.

But obviosuly they don't all have the same control system. The ones John and Jack fired used a mental interface, where as the one that Zelenka fired did not.

Concession accepted.

No, YOU drop this, because YOU are the one claiming that Beckett was controlling a weapon trying to kill people.

Then it shouldn't be hard to pull up an exact quote saying so.

Concession accepted.

I'm afraid you don't understand {snip}that we're dealing with a binary issue, no more no less.

False dilemma.

That's why we needed to estimate how close to the sun the ship was by looking at the visuals.

"Considering how often the VFX department messed up with scales, the most reliable and logical thing to do is actually use one of those rare occasions where a character actually provides such information, and take it as correct."

Guess who said that?

Plus masking yourself with star radiations is not going to be easy since Carter was still able to detect the stargate entering the photosphere of the sun in that episode where they destroyed Apophis' fleet.

Which could have more to do with the transmitter than the sensors. In "Pegasus Project," their sensors were easily capable of detecting the stargate close to the black hole, even though they weren't capable of detecting the hive ship away from the black hole.

Tough sensors, but that's largely irrelevant since what counts is what was seen anyway.

Yees, because it's always smart to look directly into the sun to find a ship. Especially given how easy it should be, seeing as how the corona can extend for millions of kilometers and is easily visible outside of an eclipse, thus making the act of finding a ship pretty simple.

Craptastic logic returns. It's not because there's a mistake in one episode (if there's any) that it applies to another episode where there could be none.

So basically, unreliable evidence is only inadmissable when it doesn't agree with you, and completely admissable when it does. We shouldn't hold it to a single standard, where either we deem it admissable, or we don't.

Even when there's nothing else out there to support it, and even when the evidence itself is extremely shakey and self contradictory (e.g., that not only was 304 exposed to vast amounts of matter/heat/friction despite the fact that the math and physics is well beyond you, but that it managed to be exposed to massive matter/heat/friction without slowing down the least bit, and thus is still able to escape the gravity well. Either it was exposed to friction, or it wasn't).

Why can't we throw out the Pegasus Project example for the same reason we throw out the SG-10 example?

Don't you think it's actually fair for Jacob to call that relatively "pretty soon", since hours earlier, they would all be dead of age even before being half way back home? Of course it is!

So the entire storyline in that episode, where SG1 is battling with the Goa'ud and with the replicators, takes place over the course of 2 months?

Again, stop switching standards.

You mean like the standard of whether or not VFX scale are generally a reliable source? The standard of whether or not withstanding a black hole is generally a reliable feat? Those types of standards?

I actually thought this might happen when the Wraith ships began to jump to the milky way. At first I thought that there was no competition but reading both arguments I reconsidered.

Pro Wraith:
-They held their own against the ancients, why not the Ori?

Pro Ori:
-They have the same technology as the ancients (and lets not forget that the ancients only left pegasus because they could see no way of winning not because they were losing)
-There is an entire galaxy of worshippers waiting to fight if required
-The earth ships manage to hold their own against the wraith hive ships (although this is largely due to luck), nukes when they get through can cause considerable damage and earth shields can hold off several hits from wraith weapons, however when in battle with the ori, no damage was caused to the ori ships, and the ori ships needed only fire one shot to dispatch our ships
-On top of this the ori are themselves a weapon (albeit in the form of the orosi (however its spelt)), capable of not only technological supremacy.

Basically, the wraith would be screwed but it might take a little longer than the invasion of the milky way

Just about. You should also ad that the Ori would be far more likely to share their technology to the people of Pegasus to fight off the Wraith with, and have a far better sense of strategy and tactics.

[TameFarrar]

Not only is it entirely possible to have a debate and/or discussion of opposing viewpoints without reverting to *name-calling* or making snide or disparaging remarks to or about those you disagree with. It is EXPECTED, as that is the Forum Guidelines.

From the looks of it (reading 150 posts) this would seem to be a group of fairly intelligent individuals that have some very set opinions. That being the case I see no reason for this thread to have been continually on report for things that are immature in nature.

It has been posted in this thread on a few occasions that Name-calling and the like will not be tolerated, many have also been warned that continued violations will end up placing the offender on Moderation. If you would like to be able to continue posting your thoughts and debating the opinions of others freely, I would suggest that furture posts refrain from reverting to this immature standard and instead discuss and debate respectfully as is the RULE here at GW

Thank You
TameFarrar
GateWorld Moderator