Who could build the best ship

[Character]

THey didnt say anything about traveling trough time in unending, what sam said was that it was impossible to reverse time, atleast for the entire universe, both of which she managed to do.

BTW, i feel my post in the last page may have been lost among the rapid discussion, i'd like to hear what the "ancients are better" side of the argument has to say about my points on asgard shields taking a super solar flare, and asgard power sources powering giant time dialation fields?

[Ouroboros]

Whoever builds the best ship will still probably end up loosing it to the ship the MW replicators make. Only some of it needs to survive to infest the supership, then it becomes more about nameless goons vs bugs and the bugs almost always tend to win that one.

[Ukko]

THey didnt say anything about traveling trough time in unending, what sam said was that it was impossible to reverse time, atleast for the entire universe, both of which she managed to do.

BTW, i feel my post in the last page may have been lost among the rapid discussion, i'd like to hear what the "ancients are better" side of the argument has to say about my points on asgard shields taking a super solar flare, and asgard power sources powering giant time dialation fields?

You can add to that, that an Ancient ship was was destroyed or damaged from the same solar flare.

I havnt seen unending in a while you might be right.

[Buba uognarf]

As much as i like mckay, hes not smarter than the asgard, if he could fix it, or more accuratly thought he fixed it, as it was never tested, they can figure a way to do it again. The drones, have to come out somehow. So the only eidence we have, is that the asgard know pretty damn well how ancient shields work.

No the Pegasus Asgard may know how Ancient shields work, they acheived the feat of passing through the city shield in the same way Ancient ships do. Also these Asgard had been incontrol of an Ancient base for who knows how long its possible they managed to copy that ability from study of that base. Regardless as its been so often mentioned on this forum the Ida and pegasus Asgard are different and just because one faction can do something doesn't mean the other can.

"A solar flare is a violent explosion in a star's atmosphere releasing as much energy as 6*10^25 Joules." - wiki, a properly power asgard shield a a tiny earth ship could withstand a super solar flare (so more powerfull than what wiki says) and not even show a hint of failure, only some hull heating. also a zpmed oddesey was able to take hell knows how many ori shots, which no matter how you put it, must be far stronger than wraith ones. Doesnt come close?

Both of these examples had ZPM's powering the shields. There's no evidence that an Asgard ship powered by an Asgard powersource can survive a solar flare of minutes of Ori weapons fire. Also remember in Unending the Odyssesy took far less hits than in AOT, which example do we go with? Seeing as the replicators were involved in AOT and they have a habit of uber enhancing technology I'd put them down as the culprit for the inexplicable increase in shield strength.

APBWs killed an ori ship in seconds, the drones couldnt do it in road not taken, ergo APBWs are superior, not to mention not needing ammo. For the hyperdrive, an asgard ship with "inferior" power and prometheus in tow went to another galaxy and considered hours to be a long time. And for power, There is absolutely zero evidence that NIGs are inferior to zpms. The huge time dialation field the asgard made to trap the replicators easily show comparable power production capabilities, as it was stated several times that ancient time dialation fields would be powered by a zpm and we even seen a zpm depleted in 60 years (inside the field) by a just a small ship sized field in unending. Even the size (of the power generator) may not be an isue, if you notice in nemesis thor said all reactors output the same amount, yet the forward reactor was atleast 2x smaller then the others.

Drones can kill Ori ships too, hence the need for 5 Ori ships to come to Earth to conquer it. Drones can take out entire fleets in seconds ala Lost City. It depends on the opponent which one is best. How many hours though? Atlantis is millions of years old, the Ancients could likely improve it with their latest technology. Atlantis appeared to make the journey to the MW in hours, an Asgard ship was stated as taking 4 days to travel the same distance. We don't know what Asgard ship but its logical to assume the Asgard wouldn't send a ship on an 8 day trip there and back if they had a ship which could do it in hours. Actually there is evidence they're inferior. Four NIG's + replicator enhancements and Beliskners can't raise shields and enter hyperspace due to power requirements, Atlantis can do both with a single ZPM albeit with difficulty. The same class of ship was bested by 2 Ha'taks with knocked off Ancient enhancements, obviously their power generation is not up to ZPM levels. The time dilation field the Asgard used to contain the replicators would have only been operational for seconds inside the bubble. It was only ment to slow them down before another solution could be found.

I've got quite a few people arguing with me so if I don't respond to everything please forgive me lol.

[thekillman]

can you PLEASE stop mentioning the beliskner VS hatak thing? its out of the window. anubis could use anything he might have gained when goauld. a simple shield upgrade cannot make your shield an infinity stronger than it was before. the beliskner weapon was made useless, ha'tak weapons enhanced specifically to work against asgard shields. seeing the nature of anubis, he probably cheated aswell.

"both ships powered by ZPMS"

point is moot. its about making our ships work full power, regardless of being what type of powersource. they couldve sticked an ori powercore to it, an arcturus, a metaverse powercollecter, or an asgard powercore. or a replicator powercore. or a subspace tap. or whatever. does it matter? NO.

[lordofseas]

Ancients. For all the reasons above and more.

[morrismike]

The fact is we've seen nothing on the show to indicate that ancient auroras are any better than repli-auroras. We've seen an ancient version release a few hundred drones in a short time (making them a one-trick pony) while getting pounded by hives, we've seen one dominated by cruisers (Tria), we've seen one underachieve in comparison to 304s against repli-aurora, we've heard reports of zpm auroras beaten and captured, etc. That's all we know.

We know a Oniel stood up to ori ships without gettting a scratch on the paint while collecting vital tactical information on weapons and shields. This same ship outfited with uber beams could probably engage maybe 6 ori ships and dozens of hives and/or repli asaurans.

We know that a zpm 304 can engage and destroy multiple ori ships (something the planetary defense system with zpm backed drones is seemlingly is unable to do).

We know a standard 304 (when not ambushed) can engage and destroy multiple hives and repli-asaurans.

I think an ancient aurora would be good in a fight because it can instantly release hundreds of drones but thinking it the uber ship of all time is without support.

[Character]

Regardless as its been so often mentioned on this forum the Ida and pegasus Asgard are different and just because one faction can do something doesn't mean the other can.

In this case we can say the ancients are different factions as well, like the lantians didnt build a dakara so their "obviously" cant and so are technologicly inferior, the same way you conclude ida asgard couldnt do the same thing pegasgard did, despite thor specificly mentioning that htey had studied the ancient db for a long time.

Both of these examples had ZPM's powering the shields. There's no evidence that an Asgard ship powered by an Asgard powersource can survive a solar flare of minutes of Ori weapons fire. Also remember in Unending the Odyssesy took far less hits than in AOT, which example do we go with? Seeing as the replicators were involved in AOT and they have a habit of uber enhancing technology I'd put them down as the culprit for the inexplicable increase in shield strength.

The powering of shields is irrelevant, the point is that with equal power the asgard shields are just as good or better. The odesey was hit by a planet exploding in unending and the asgard upgraded may have not been finished. As for replicators, i'd say if anything, they were using the zpms power to replicate. And how could they improve the ship anyway? all the knowlage they could possibly have would be from the asgard core that created them, so even if they upgraded the odessey, they did so using the knowlage asgard have anyway.

Drones can kill Ori ships too, hence the need for 5 Ori ships to come to Earth to conquer it. Drones can take out entire fleets in seconds ala Lost City. It depends on the opponent which one is best.

I recknon gould hataks could kill ori ships too, if the gould bring 10k ships against the ori 1, doesnt mean gould weapons are as good as APBWs, if drones need far more effort to do the same job, APBWs are better, maybe nor by huge margins, but they are.

How many hours though? Atlantis is millions of years old, the Ancients could likely improve it with their latest technology. Atlantis appeared to make the journey to the MW in hours, an Asgard ship was stated as taking 4 days to travel the same distance. We don't know what Asgard ship but its logical to assume the Asgard wouldn't send a ship on an 8 day trip there and back if they had a ship which could do it in hours. Actually there is evidence they're inferior.

Well, seeing as thor said hours and not days, i think a maximum of ~48 hours is resonable, although seeing as in the same ep thor towed the prometheus to earth, some 1200 light years, in 2 seconds, that some insane speed. The pegasus galaxy is ~3.5 million LY from earth? simple math gives a trip time of ~1.6 hours.
I'd like to see the evidencet to the contrary, apart from the tiny qoute from weir, who as i stated many times in the past, should have absolutely no idea of asgard ship capabilities.

Four NIG's + replicator enhancements and Beliskners can't raise shields and enter hyperspace due to power requirements, Atlantis can do both with a single ZPM albeit with difficulty. The same class of ship was bested by 2 Ha'taks with knocked off Ancient enhancements, obviously their power generation is not up to ZPM levels. The time dilation field the Asgard used to contain the replicators would have only been operational for seconds inside the bubble. It was only ment to slow them down before another solution could be found.

The no shields in hyperspace might be intentional as a ship doesnt need then. And it doesnt make sense anyway, a gould cargo ship has shields withs irs tiny power source so the asgard cant spare what would be less than 1% of power generation for shields?
For the 2 hataks, that says nothing of power generation, we dont know how much max power the shield can use, and anubis likely found specific ways to fight the asgard tech (and he was very much interested in the info thor had), considering that he still had trouble fighting the system lords. Othervise the gould are about as strong as the ancients.
As for the time dialation, the field would last far longer than seconds, carter said they could by hundreds of years, realisticly the replicators got out in some 2 years realtime, so it took them some ~1.6 hours to disable the field and rig it for their own use, for which again they had to use asgard tech to power the thing. not to mention that the field far FAR larger than anything the ancients demonstrated, compare a few km to more than 300k km.

[thekillman]

actually it makes sense that the asgard cant use shields in hyperspace. #1, its a plotdevice. but #2, they were pursueing a repliship at max speed. to keep up and even overtake the ship they needed all energy available

[Commander Aegir]

The Hive Ships weren't brilliant but they didn't need to be as they could crush the ancients with weight of numbers. The Prometheus is pretty awful in every battle it takes part in. The Ori ships were probably the best, even the Asgard can't destroy them.

[tjoflojt]

about the shield strength... a normal 304 could take 2 ori blasts, right? oddy with zpm and upgrades could take about 7 or 8. thats only like 4 times better, with both upgrades and a ZPM. after upgrades, deaddy could take 10 superhive blast before losing shields, sublight, hyperdrive and weapons. oddy could maybe take 25-30. atlantis took probably over a hundred hits with 3 ZPMs, that were partially drained from skidding the atmosphere, and the Wormhole jump there.
we also know the emitters have been prevously damaged, to a point where we probably couldn't fix the properly.

And the orion. It was 10 000 years old, and heavily damaged, and still took a lot of fire and managed to take down hive on seconds once weapons were powered. that tells us that even old and damaged ancient tech can do the same things as asgard and more.

[Character]

Oddy in AoT took far more than 7-8, and even if it is just 4x, thats 40 hits from the superhive. Considering that the first salvo of ~15 shots took down atlantisis shields to 70%, it didnt take a hundred hits. Plus atlantis being bigger has much more and far bigger shield generators/emmiters (and 3 zpms) than a 304, built by humans with our inneficient power conduits and such.

[stargater1990]

Clearly the Ancients, best shields curtousy of Atlantis, best power generation e.g. ZPMs, an Ancient outpost style drone launcher and some of those satellite weapons and nothing could touch it. The Asgard couldn't come close.

i couldnt possibly agree more

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Ancient Shields on Atlantis seem to have been changed by the writers unless they work differently when in space or they're just not up to their old standard because of the prior damage to the power conduits in First Strike and straining of the emitters to the point where they almost failed in First contact.
In all incidents prior to EATG the emitters would just keep on defending the city until it ran out of power, in the Siege Part 3 Atlantis powered off of a single ZPM was under constant attack by the Wraith's fleet (10 Hives and 36 Cruisers), it was said to be able to withstand an attack until the ZPM was drained in days, Daedalus was only able to withstand an attack from a portion of the Wraith's Siege fleet for like a minute and a half, even adding a ZPM that's only gonna bringing the shielding up to last like 7 and a half minutes judging by how much longer Odyssey can last over regular 304s against Ori ships (I think ZPMless 3 shots, ZPMed 10-14).

The Ancients were said to be able to win almost every battle against the Wraith, so far Earth hasn't been doing that, granted we haven't committed all of our ships to all out fighting them but I doubt the Ancients had that many vessels during the war.
Even when we got hold of the beam weapons Phoenix got damaged to the point where it's weapons went offline without getting a single shot on any of the 3 Hives in that scene and it's Hyperdrive engines failed, that ship was only shown to get 1 kill on a Hive with 3 shots, which granted is impressive (the 3 shot kill) but Phoenix powered by conventional energy sources only lasted a few days out in the field, ZPM powered it may have lasted a fair bit longer, but Michael would more than likely have sent a larger fleet to deal with it, if he sent 8 Hives I bet he'd have killed Phoenix in about the same amount of time, ZPM powered Auroras have been said to go deep into Wraith territory for months by Todd not days or weeks but months, I'd see them having to face greater numbers than any of our 304s have or could even with a ZPM powering their systems.
Maybe an O'Neill could do better than a ZPM powered 304 in battling the Wraith but we'll never know for sure, Asgard shields though have never been shown to last for days under constant attack which Atlantis has, in the 304s the Asgard's emitters can't just keep on protecting our ships until there is no power they just fail.

[Rasunda]

Oddy in AoT took far more than 7-8, and even if it is just 4x, thats 40 hits from the superhive. Considering that the first salvo of ~15 shots took down atlantisis shields to 70%, it didnt take a hundred hits. Plus atlantis being bigger has much more and far bigger shield generators/emmiters (and 3 zpms) than a 304, built by humans with our inneficient power conduits and such.

The last time I checed we use crystal based tech.
And I do think that the ancient were also useing crystal tech.