The Ultimate 304's Guide : Anything, Everything and Speculations about 304's

[Sealurk]

Could it be that with the Wraith ship at least, it wasn't that the sensors became more powerful because of the increased power from the ZPM, but that the increased power from the ZPM allowed the Hive to grow / build / develop more sensors, increasing coverage?

A cloaked Puddle Jumper might show up on a normal Hive's sensors as little more than a barely noticeable glitch, but when the same 'glitch' appears on numerous sensors, which have different positions but show the glitch at the same position in space, somebody gets suspicious and starts shooting.

[lordofseas]

Then again, this wouldn't be the first time TPTB ****ed up tehir science royaly.

True.

[Crazy Tom]

Could it be that with the Wraith ship at least, it wasn't that the sensors became more powerful because of the increased power from the ZPM, but that the increased power from the ZPM allowed the Hive to grow / build / develop more sensors, increasing coverage?

A cloaked Puddle Jumper might show up on a normal Hive's sensors as little more than a barely noticeable glitch, but when the same 'glitch' appears on numerous sensors, which have different positions but show the glitch at the same position in space, somebody gets suspicious and starts shooting.

Maybe, but it didn't gow that much larger. Maybe 15% bigger, and that was more in the area of armour.

[Monak]

Then again there is the little fact that a Hive is alive and a ZPM power boost is basically a power rush to the nervousystem of the Hive's body which my guess end at the external sensors turning them from something like our nerve endings to something more powerful like the dome pressure receptors on a Crocodile. It's nature at its simplest really. A Hammer Head (Super Hive) can detect a pray item (Puddle Jumper) hiding a foot under the sand (cloak) because there is more juice going to sensors in it's widened head.

[lordofseas]

Then again there is the little fact that a Hive is alive and a ZPM power boost is basically a power rush to the nervousystem of the Hive's body which my guess end at the external sensors turning them from something like our nerve endings to something more powerful like the dome pressure receptors on a Crocodile. It's nature at its simplest really. A Hammer Head (Super Hive) can detect a pray item (Puddle Jumper) hiding a foot under the sand (cloak) because there is more juice going to sensors in it's widened head.

Interesting idea.. I like it!

[Col. Matarrese]

Because they need large amounts of power to make it be sensitive enough.

It could be that whatever power source the Wraith sensors use requires more power to switch into an "active" rather than "passive" mode. I would assume passive sensors don't work on cloaked ships, while if you're "actively" searching for the disturbances a cloak of the nature found in Stargate would undoubtedly cause, you'd find that you needed a lot more power to do so.

[lordofseas]

It could be that whatever power source the Wraith sensors use requires more power to switch into an "active" rather than "passive" mode. I would assume passive sensors don't work on cloaked ships, while if you're "actively" searching for the disturbances a cloak of the nature found in Stargate would undoubtedly cause, you'd find that you needed a lot more power to do so.

Like a pocket of hydrogen gas in space moving apart in a symmetrical direction due to the passing of a ship? (Or something that doesn't happen on its own?)

[locutes]

like that I think, but a ship also emits some radiation, this will there for be detectable.

[Captain Untouchable]

Sections have titles for ease of reading (since the post is so long >_<), rather than just me being pretentious!


Sensors

My few cents on the whole sensor issue - it depends on what science you attribute the cloaking device and the sensors with, really.

Making the Puddlejumper transparent (which is effectively what the cloaking device does) would presumably require some sort of lensing effect, where light from sources behind the ship is bent around some kind of energy field. Kinda like gravitational lensing, only at a much closer range.

To cut a long explanation short, the cloaking field presumably has a lensing effect on certain EM frequencies - visible light, whatever frequency the sensors use, etc - but apparently doesn't have an effect on certain frequences - radio waves can still pass through the field. With more power, the SuperHive might have been able to emit a "ping" that was of a sufficiently high frequency that the field wasn't able to lense it arround the ship properly; that ping could have bounced back towards the Hive, and been detectable.

I'll also toss the term "Quantum Tunnelling" into the equation. From what my lecturer kept rabbiting on about last year, this is probably the kind of annoying thing that it would be able to do. >_<


- - -

Foreign 304s

On the "Foreign 304s" topic, I think its worth pointing out that joint military ventures of the sort you're suggesting - ie. ships crewed by a mix of races - aren't all that realistic, from a real life perspective. The problem is that, as a military asset, some one person needs to be allowed to have the final say. Technically, the Daedalus, Odyssey and Apollo are assets of the USA's "Homeworld Security" agency, and while they are under orders from the President to conform to IOA policy, they still "belong" to the US Military.

In order to have a ship that was owned by no single nation, everyone participating would have to agree to elect a single agency or body that had unilateral authority over a very powerful weapons system. Because it poses a threat to national security, and takes certain decisions out of the hands of the individual nations, it is quite unlikely.

The only parallel I can think of is the AWACS / E-3 Sentry. That is a US-designed craft, but that is operated by other nations. 33 of the 68 E-3's ever built are still owned by the US Military. France and Britain (and Saudi, I believe) have paid for their own E-3's, which they crew themselves. The remainder are owned by NATO, and are deployed - crewed by multinational NATO personnel - as per NATO's specific operations plans.

If the IOA could front the cash/resources to "buy" a 304 of their own, then they would be able to crew it as they see fit. However, it is more likely that special circumstances - like France and Britain with E-3s, or Russia and China with the 304s - are the only way that 304s will end up in non-US hands.

Ultimately, its all to do with who pays for it. Hell, for all we know, the Chinese bought the Sun Tsu from the States, rather than obtaining it via Russian-style blackmail.

It would be nice to see the E-3 situation mirrored in terms of F-302 deployment, though: some countries buying squadrons of their own, other squadrons owned by NATO/IOA and spread about the place as required, etc.


- - -

How Many?

On to my actual reason for posting!

My basic question is, how many 304's are there, and how long does it take to build one? Based on Landry's statement that the next 304 wouldn't be ready for a year (in "Crusade"), the generally accepted one-year seems to fit. That also lines up with the number of 304s that we have seen in the show, aside from Season 9 of SG-1.

The Daedalus was first seen at the end of SG-1 Season 8 / Atlantis Season 1. The Korolev was first seen at end of Season 9 / Season 2. The Apollo was first seen at the end of Season 10 / Season 3. We didn't see any new ships in Season 4, but since the Sun Tsu was already active, I'd wager that she was the Season 4 ship, and the Phoenix / Hammond was the Season 5 vessel.

That's all nice and neat, but it unfortunately ignores the Odyssey. Unless, of course, that the time lapse between "Off The Grid" and "Camalot" was sufficient to build an entire 304 from scratch.

One option is that the PB3865 number on her ship patch refers to an offworld location where the ship was constructed. If she was built offworld, then the Korolev could have been constructed on Earth, at the same facility where the Daedalus was built. However, that would suggest that two facilities existed for the construction of 304s. If the Odyssey is the Season 9/2 contribution of this offworld construction sites, what ships were built there during Season 10/3, 4, and 5?

A possibility is that, after the construction of the Korolev, the Earth Shipyards were closed. The offworld site might have been near Naquadah mines, or at least more accessible: an offworld site would also reduce the odds of 304's being spotted as they took off from the build site on Earth. However, with two construction facilities active, why would Earth close one down straight after Ori ships wound up in our galaxy, rather than churning out a second ship during Season 10/3?

An alternative is that the offworld facility where the Odyssey was built was destroyed by the Ori. That jives with the fact that we haven't seen any additional ships. It does mean though - as an aside - that a spaceframe for a new 304 was likely half-way through construction when the base was destroyed (they must've done something between "Off The Grid" and the start of Season 10). Is the Apollo thus the fifth of the class to be (partly) constructed (the Apollo-06 as opposed to Apollo-05, following on from the Daedalus-02)?

The last option that springs to mind is that, after Season 10, production was halted while the Odyssey's new Asgard systems were analysed, and Daedalus and Apollo were given the same upgrades. However, since both ships were available during mid-Atlantis 4, that shouldn't really have been a significant delay on construction. It might explain why the Phoenix/Hammond was still being finished at the end of Atlantis 5, though.


Any thoughts or speculations on which of the above is more likely?

[FN-P90]

I have a question that has been bugging me for awhile, but didnt think it required a thread.

What is this thing beside the 302 bay on the BC304?

Spoiler:

Is it a cargo bay? or just there for astetics?

[Crazy Tom]

Speculation has raged far and wide, but nobody knows.

Best guess it's there to look pretty until the writers give it a purpose.

[Endless Summer]

Personly i'd love to see a british 304 cause im British!

agreed

[Phantom6]

Sensors don't really work that way. I mean really, you would need millions of joules of energy to bring these sensors up to max efficiency, and that['s just not how any sensors work.

If you routed all that pwoer through active sensors, each "ping" woud be equivalent to a shot of a cannon.

Then again, this wouldn't be the first time TPTB ****ed up tehir science royaly.

We don't know how wraith sensors work.

They could flood an area with a particular radiation and use basic sensors to determine what's going on, how things are reacting to that radiation. With more power there's a more densely packed radiation field and more of a chance of picking up irregularities in what is supposed to be empty space.

The fact that they were missing so much BEFORE the jumper decloaked means their sensors were good but not good enough to fully lock the ships location.

[Phantom6]

I have a question that has been bugging me for awhile, but didnt think it required a thread.

What is this thing beside the 302 bay on the BC304?

Spoiler:

Is it a cargo bay? or just there for astetics?

Venting for the engines?

[Finger13]

Venting for the engines?

Nahh it had doors.

My assumption, and the logical assumption given their location, would be a cargo bay.