Superhive vs Ori Battlecruiser

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

OK I've done some checking on the whole shield fluctuation thing which is mentioned in the canon of the show, I was wrong about it being said in the episode Camelot, but it is mentioned within the Camelot battle, during Flesh and Blood in one of the flashbacks to the battle, when Carter is investigating the Korolev's data recorder retrieved after it's destruction, 17 minutes and 15 seconds into the episode a female crew member on the Korolev's bridge says to Colonel Chekov "Sir sensors are indicating a slight energy fluctuation in their shields coinciding with our weapons fire", again at 37 minutes and six seconds Bray'Tak mentions the fluctuation after the first Ha'Tak is destroyed in the attack on the Ori Cruisers over Chluak.
The fluctuation is also mentioned in Unending 8 minutes and 1 second into the episode when Odyssey starts firing the Asgard beam weapons for the first time on the first Ori Cruiser that gets destroyed by them, Major Marks says "sensors indicate enemy shields are fluctuating" the Ori's weapons are not being fired at this point as the Odyssey is behind that Ori Cruiser.

I don't recall any other shield on the show being said to fluctuate when under stress, in the case of something like Atlantis up until the end of season 3 of SGA they either withstand enemy weapons fire until the energy supply powering them gets depleted, or in the case of something like a 304 (or Atlantis in EATG) they drop to "70 percent" or whatever, since the Ori shields are never to my recollection being said to drop in power or hold and IMO something else is going on there with the Ori's shields and it can not be said with absolute certainty that the Super Hive's weapons would deplete them as we've never seen them used against a shield of this kind.
Since the only things to get through the shields are either the Asgard Plasma beam weapons on board Odyssey (regular 304s were never shown to be able to get through the Ori's shields), which is powered by a ZPM that could or couldn't be powering the weapons or the initial activation of a Super Gate in Pegasus Project IMO we can not be sure the Super Hive's weapons would definitely have the same effect as they did on either a ZPMless 304 or Atlantis as the shields on an Ori Cruiser do not behave the same way as either.

I will refrain from making any comparisons between the power of either the Asgard beams or the Ori's beam pulse weapons, but I will say that Ori weapons have been shown to be fired and break apart solid matter in Counter Strike and when destroying enemy ships , they can also be fired with little in the way of a pause between each shot and would IMO be able to be fired fast enough to cause damage to the Hive.
I do not believe the Ori's beams carry any less power and since only a single shot was fired at the Super Hive with the APBWs, which has never even been shown to destroy a Wraith Cruiser I believe it can safely be said that one shot from those weapons would never have destroyed the Super Hive.

With everything I've said above in this post I do believe that the Ori Cruiser would defeat the Hive, it would IMO still be a battle for it do so, but with maneuverability on it's side (as I believe the Ori ship is only a fraction the size of even a regular Hive and the Ori's ships do move in battles) and it's main weapon being able to fire many blasts in the space of a pretty short amount of time I think it could win.

[Buba uognarf]

WEAPONS OFFICER
Sir, sensors are indicating a slight energy fluctuation in their shields, coinciding with their own weapons fire!

This is from the transcript of 'Flesh and Blood' and it basically refutes everything you just said.


Check for yourself

The Ori shields are just like any other shield, they flucuated in 'Unending' because of the overwhelming wank of the Asgard beams. There is no evidence that they get stronger with enemy weapons therefore as I have stated before the Superhive would pulverize an Ori ship with ease.

I and everyone else you are debating with is certain and has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that your claims of the Ori mother ships having Beachhead shields is baseless and wrong. Shall we continue this discussion under the correct view that the Ori ships have normal ships?

In counter strike the beam struggled with a mound of dirt, the Superhive took very little damage from 2 304's who knowing what happened to the Deadalus likely went all out. An Ori beam can not top that, nor can it top a continious stream of drones.

Like I said the Ori beam is unlikely to be much stronger than the Asgard beams, if it is that means that the Ori's own shields are only at the level of our 304's as they were taken out by 6 inferior beam shots. The battle would then be very shot as the Hive would be able to blast it to hell in approximately 2 seconds.

Wraith cruisers are far tougher than Ha'taks, a Drone from a jumper can go straight through a Ha'tak and cause critical damage. In 'Condemmed' a single Drone was unable to penetrate the hull of a Wraiht cruiser instead gouging out a trench a long is belly. Its also possible that the Asgard beams can be charged to various levels for quick rate of fire etc...Caldwell actually said,

CALDWELL
All right, now return fire. Main battery, full power.

So Asgard beam weapons at FULL POWER do minimal damage, there's no evidence that the Ori beam is significantly stronger or even marginally stronger than the Asgard beams.

The Superhive would deplete the Ori ships shields quickly while the Ori's own weapons are unlikely to do more than minimal damage let alone critical damage in the time it takes for the Hive to kill it.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I found this video which is directly pulled from the episode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zymw...eature=related

If you watch at 32 seconds, the officer definitely says "our weapons fire" and not their own weapons fire, my hearing's pretty good, I even turned the volume up to be sure to get a clear read on what she says.

I didn't say anything about Beachhead shields in my last post, but I do see a connection, that's just me.

I think you'll also notice that I'm not longer saying anything like the Asgard beams are weaker than the Ori's, it's just my opinion that the Ori ship wouldn't be a push over and could defeat the Hive, I don't see what the big deal is if I wanna believe what I want to believe.

All of this stuff is just speculation and I'll believe what I want to believe, I certainly won't change my opinion when other people decide I should.
If I felt their was enough evidence to change my opinion in line to agree with you then I would, but I don't.

[Buba uognarf]

I found this video which is directly pulled from the episode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zymw...eature=related

If you watch at 32 seconds, the officer definitely says "our weapons fire" and not their own weapons fire, my hearing's pretty good, I even turned the volume up to be sure to get a clear read on what she says.

I didn't say anything about Beachhead shields in my last post, but I do see a connection, that's just me.

I think you'll also notice that I'm not longer saying anything like the Asgard beams are weaker than the Ori's, it's just my opinion that the Ori ship wouldn't be a push over and could defeat the Hive, I don't see what the big deal is if I wanna believe what I want to believe.

All of this stuff is just speculation and I'll believe what I want to believe, I certainly won't change my opinion when other people decide I should.
If I felt their was enough evidence to change my opinion in line to agree with you then I would, but I don't.

It actually says their own weapons fire. If you listen carefully, it is hard to tell with the background noise but its definately their own.

This is a discussion you are trying to prove a point, I am disproving it. Basically what we've come to now is your argument's been blown apart and you want to believe the Ori ship will win despite there being no reason to think it would.

You can believe what you want. But you have said on numerous occasions you think the Ori beam is signifcantly stronger (I've countered this) and that the Ori ship has Beachhead shields (which I have also countered). Obviously its ok to disagree with me but you have so far done this on the basis of fault evidence which is why I've endevoured to correct you.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

It actually says their own weapons fire. If you listen carefully, it is hard to tell with the background noise but its definately their own.

This is a discussion you are trying to prove a point, I am disproving it. Basically what we've come to now is your argument's been blown apart and you want to believe the Ori ship will win despite there being no reason to think it would.

You can believe what you want. But you have said on numerous occasions you think the Ori beam is signifcantly stronger (I've countered this) and that the Ori ship has Beachhead shields (which I have also countered). Obviously its ok to disagree with me but you have so far done this on the basis of fault evidence which is why I've endevoured to correct you.

Like I said I'm more than happy to change my opinion if I feel it needs changing, I'm honestly not trying to hold onto a fanwank dream, which I think you said on in a previous post, if a ship built with the help of a much younger race (the Asgard) than the Ori can defeat them with an Ancient power source boosting some of their tech then they can't be the best thing out there, but I still think they'd be capable of holding their own against the Hive.
I guess this is another thread we'll just have to agree to disagree on.

[Buba uognarf]

Like I said I'm more than happy to change my opinion if I feel it needs changing, I'm honestly not trying to hold onto a fanwank dream, which I think you said on in a previous post, if a ship built with the help of a much younger race (the Asgard) than the Ori can defeat them with an Ancient power source boosting some of their tech then they can't be the best thing out there, but I still think they'd be capable of holding their own against the Hive.
I guess this is another thread we'll just have to agree to disagree on.

I said that the 'Ori ships having Beachhead shields were a wet dream' lol.

Ok and my point is I see no reason to think that the Ori could hold their own against the Superhive 1 on 1. If you want to disagree without evidence be my guest.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I said that the 'Ori ships having Beachhead shields were a wet dream' lol.

Ok and my point is I see no reason to think that the Ori could hold their own against the Superhive 1 on 1. If you want to disagree without evidence be my guest.

[Mister Oragahn]

Well the beam runs on technobabble and they needed more technobabble so...

No no, they really needed the juicy energy there, it was precisely what they were short of in that case.
The idea that they needed some hefty gigajoules and couldn't put them out is kinda far fetched. The coincidence that both sources came to the end of their capability at that time was more than necessary for the plot, but that's what kills it for me. These contrived "solutions" really suck.

I didn't remember it very well either but now that you mention it I think so yes. Didn't they expand the field or something from that one building to save them all in typical technobabble happy ending fashion.

Yes, so you could get some fan pandering with hawt Vala jumping in muscles' arms in an abundance of friendly and kiddy emotions that felt totally natural.

Guess we can forget about the debris then, other than th fact the Ori were too stupid to be curious about the suspicious lack of any. Still not as bad as seige III though.

I actually have much less gripes with this one.
In the end, you have a nuclear fireball and the idea that the city's debris sunk.

A gigaton explosion would have been more convincing, for the mere fact that a greater vapourization would have been guaranteed, and the amount of radiations would have made it harder to scan for debris.

But it cannot be worse, really, than a mighty Ori beam that would supposedly vapourize a village without living a crater safe for a 100 meters radius blackened soil.
Even a disintegration beam would not explain it at all, since a good layer of the ground would have been disintegrated as well.

Indeed, I'm really tired of constantly having to invoke these elaborate excuses for people who obviously don't have the first clue what the firepower these ships are apparently carting around should actually look like when it hits things like this. You've got to choose then. You make the technobabble explanations or you accept that in a universe where people can built tiny 1 gigaton nukes they all still fight with WW1 howitzers. Then you have the whole just sheer bad design evident in the weapons and ships. They're moaning about being outmatched for so long against powers like the Ori and Wraith hives pre beamz when they already have all the tech they need to create far more effective weapons systems than basically anybody in the series.

That's not how stargate works though. Better weapons aren't better because they're better designed to take into account real world factors of potential advantage like oh for instance range, they're better because they're "more advanced".

It works the same way for ships to, and even entire civilizations.

They could have, at least, pretended that the beams they used were specifically designed to exploit a weakness they found in Ori shields.
They could have pretended they put entire Asgard labs in time dilation fields to work on this discovery for like a hundred years or something.

They could have made these beams actually fast moving... but this applies to ALL weapons in late Stargate, Goa'uld, Wraith, Asgard, Ori, apparently someone thinks that you're going to hang to the edge of your seat if you have time to see the beamz or blobz approaching.

The days of the Death Star are gone.
You know, one planet, one beam, one second, fast moving debris.

[Mister Oragahn]

I said that the 'Ori ships having Beachhead shields were a wet dream' lol.

Ok and my point is I see no reason to think that the Ori could hold their own against the Superhive 1 on 1. If you want to disagree without evidence be my guest.

Beachhead shields or not, all Ori shields fluctuate. The Beachhead one was losing strength as it was fired, but soon absorbed the energy and grew.
Each time it grew, it also got weaker, but since the others were firing at it until it was totally sealed...

[Ouroboros]

No no, they really needed the juicy energy there, it was precisely what they were short of in that case.
The idea that they needed some hefty gigajoules and couldn't put them out is kinda far fetched. The coincidence that both sources came to the end of their capability at that time was more than necessary for the plot, but that's what kills it for me. These contrived "solutions" really suck.

Yep, it's impossible to come up with one that covers everything. Something is always going to get left out in the cold, you just have to shoot for majority mostly.

Yes, so you could get some fan pandering with hawt Vala jumping in muscles' arms in an abundance of friendly and kiddy emotions that felt totally natural.

Yep classic dodge of the hard moral dillema via technowank. Let the people capitulate to the Ori as false gods and live, or force them to reject them and have to live with most of them probably getting killed in defense of that ideal.

Why stress out over having to pick though when you can just technowank and save them all, then go plant flowers and catch butterflies because the badguys are just dumb enough to buy it.

I actually have much less gripes with this one.
In the end, you have a nuclear fireball and the idea that the city's debris sunk.

A gigaton explosion would have been more convincing, for the mere fact that a greater vapourization would have been guaranteed, and the amount of radiations would have made it harder to scan for debris.

But it cannot be worse, really, than a mighty Ori beam that would supposedly vapourize a village without living a crater safe for a 100 meters radius blackened soil.
Even a disintegration beam would not explain it at all, since a good layer of the ground would have been disintegrated as well.

You would think that some of the seige debris would probably float and even the stuff that did sink would likely still be detectable. It's not like a nuke puts out that much long lasting radiation, especially over water. The thing that bothered me so much wasn't just how they didn't notice the lack of debris at all but how quickly they gave up. The city "blows up" and right then and there, they all just decide to fly away right that second. It's absolute idiocy. They don't attempt salvage, they dodn't even investigate the possability of attempting salvage. I guess they didn't really want the FTL drives and Earth location they were attacking for that badly afterall.

Here we're suppossed to believe that Earth is their one great hope, richest feeding ground in 10,000 years, and when the thing holding not only the means of getting there, but also location, blows up every ship gives up and buggers off in seconds without even trying to get something out of it, like they've all got to return their rented leather pants on time or something.

They could have, at least, pretended that the beams they used were specifically designed to exploit a weakness they found in Ori shields.
They could have pretended they put entire Asgard labs in time dilation fields to work on this discovery for like a hundred years or something.

Yeah, limiting it to being a specifically anti shield weapon also would have worked in so far as it would not have ****ed up the power balance on atlantis the way it did, since the Wraith don't have shields. They won't let zats on atlantis because that would be bad for the show for some never really articulated reason but they will happilly let this sort of drama destroying over the top wank leak over. It really boggles the mind.

[mickhhh]

just cos the super hive done better against the asgard beams does not mean it could win a ori ship. i have heard a lot of times that asgard beams were designed to take dwn sheilds so they will do better against the ori ships.

ori beams seemed to use raw power so they will probly be much better against hives than asgard beams. the ori weapons are just as strong as the super hives. at camelot an ori beam done almost as much damage to the 304s with 1 shot as the super hive did with a volley. if an ori ship was attacking only a 304 it would do just as much damage just as fast as the super hive.

most people seem to think that the super hive would take dwn down the ori sheilds fast. i would not be so sure. the ori sheild got beat easily by the asgard beams but the ori sheilds were probly designed to hold off hatacks which there weapons seem to be similar to the wraiths weapons (i hear they are also raw power weapons). of course the super hives weapons are far more powerful but the the ori sheilds seems to be completely uneffected by hatack fire. the ori probly made the sheilds strong enough to hold off 100 hatacks so there was no way they could be destoryed. which would make sense cos the ori could not afford any ships to be destoryed by the jaffa cos they needed to make themselves look like gods

when u think about it the ori ship should win cos it should have a power source that equals a zpm or it could be even more powerful. plus the ori are so much more advanced

[Infinite-Possibilities]

That's kind of a lot of assumptions. Particularly about the similarities between Wraith and Goa'uld tech. THe 304's shields in Camelot were a lot weaker than the one in EatG. The Superhive's weapons can take down shields that survived several shots from the Ori weapon almost instantly.

[Ouroboros]

just cos the super hive done better against the asgard beams does not mean it could win a ori ship. i have heard a lot of times that asgard beams were designed to take dwn sheilds so they will do better against the ori ships.

ori beams seemed to use raw power so they will probly be much better against hives than asgard beams. the ori weapons are just as strong as the super hives. at camelot an ori beam done almost as much damage to the 304s with 1 shot as the super hive did with a volley. if an ori ship was attacking only a 304 it would do just as much damage just as fast as the super hive.

most people seem to think that the super hive would take dwn down the ori sheilds fast. i would not be so sure. the ori sheild got beat easily by the asgard beams but the ori sheilds were probly designed to hold off hatacks which there weapons seem to be similar to the wraiths weapons (i hear they are also raw power weapons). of course the super hives weapons are far more powerful but the the ori sheilds seems to be completely uneffected by hatack fire. the ori probly made the sheilds strong enough to hold off 100 hatacks so there was no way they could be destoryed. which would make sense cos the ori could not afford any ships to be destoryed by the jaffa cos they needed to make themselves look like gods

when u think about it the ori ship should win cos it should have a power source that equals a zpm or it could be even more powerful. plus the ori are so much more advanced

[mickhhh]

That's kind of a lot of assumptions. Particularly about the similarities between Wraith and Goa'uld tech. THe 304's shields in Camelot were a lot weaker than the one in EatG. The Superhive's weapons can take down shields that survived several shots from the Ori weapon almost instantly.

assumptions yes but so is almost everything any says on this thread. we no little about both plus its not real. the only people who can really say who would win r the writers.

a 304 could take several shots with a zpm but in camelot one shot damaged the 304s badly and the 2nd shot destoryed it but yes i no it was hit with 2 beams at the same time

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

That's kind of a lot of assumptions. Particularly about the similarities between Wraith and Goa'uld tech. THe 304's shields in Camelot were a lot weaker than the one in EatG. The Superhive's weapons can take down shields that survived several shots from the Ori weapon almost instantly.

Well it was never actually stated that Rodney's shield upgrades for the Daedalus were definitely incorporated into that ship, let alone the other 304s.
This is what Rodney says to Elizabeth in Tao Of Rodney:
"Oh, I’ve come up with a way for increasing the Daedalus’ shield power. (He gives the stick to Elizabeth.) Tell Hermiod to give me a call if he needs any help understanding the base code."
I can't see any implication there that it would have increased the Daedalus's shield strength by a lot, just that it was an increase in shield power.

Of course there's the Asgard's knowledge and technology given to Earth in Unending, but to my recollection no improvements in the shield technology or power distribution were mentioned in or since that episode so any changes in the strength of any of the 304's shield strength could have been marginal since the Daedalus first rolled out of the ship yard.