The Path of the Ancients

[Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper]

The Ancients didn't bring Atlantis with them from the Ori galaxy, they left in a completely different ship. We don't really know how old Atlantis is, only that it left from Earth somewhere between 5 and 10 million years ago which is around the time Vis Uban was being built. Personally I don't think Atlantis would be too much older than this.

Yes, in Ark of Truth, the Ancients clearly left their home galaxy in a different ship. Whether they came directly to MW in that same ship we can only guess (or maybe they traded it in en route for a higher model city-ship along the way. Just Kidding.)
Seriously though, you're probably right. Atlantis was likely built in MW. The question is -- when? But read on.

If it was built soon after the Ancients arrived on Earth then they would probably have developed more advanced technology which would have made Atlantis obsolete by the time they left for Pegasus, and definitely by the time of the war with the Wraith. The fact they never built something more advanced seems to support this theory.

Not necessarily. Although the city's outward appearance may have remained similar, the city's interior could have been retro-fitted many times over the millennia. (If your house were 50 million years old, how many times would you have to have it re-carpeted, or have the kitchen remodeled. .) Ok, getting serious again, consider too that Atlantis was in Pegasus for 5 - 10 million years (not thousands of years as some mistakenly assume), and during that time (not all of it spent fighting the Wraith), there were no apparent advancements made to the city.

That doesnt explain why they built a cityship and a conventional city, both as crowning jewels. Ill accept that we dont know when atlantis was built, but its very very likely that it was to flee the plague, somewhere between 5 and 10 million years ago.<snip>

You raise a lot of interesting questions, all warranting further discussion, and forgive me for clipping much of them out of the above quote, which I'm doing just to keep this post from getting any longer than it already is.

I can't really explain why Atlantis was a city-ship and Vis Uban wasn't, nor even which city was intended to be the capital, assuming the Ancients even had capital cities as we know them. By "crowning jewel" it may simply have meant that it was the ultimate in the Ancients' version of what we call "urban planning", but that's just speculation too.

I'm sticking to my belief, however, that Atlantis is as old as 50 million years, and was probably built on Earth. To make my case for this we have to consider the original concept for SGA when it was still in development as a series.

Originally, SGA was intended as a replacement for SG1. "Lost City" was to have been SG1's grand finale (actually a film), which would culminate with Atlantis being found under the ice in Antarctica.

I haven't seen a copy of the original "Lost City" script (although I'd like to), and so I'm making a few assumptions here. At the end of the original story, Atlantis was to have been found under the ice in Antarctica, rather than in another galaxy. The scene at Procralush Taonas, which also was likely in the original script tells the story: The hologram shows Earth some 30 - 50 million years ago (perhaps more). Earth is shown with the continents drifting apart. (Africa and South America are still close together.) O'Neill looks at the hologram and utters "Terra . . . Atlantus". The continents slowly drift further apart. O'Neil utters "Subo glacios" meaning "under the ice", meaning the lost city is under the ice in Antarctica.

Clearly then, this is the original story of how Atlantis became the Lost City. Continental drift was the culprit that very gradually doomed the city, situated on the Antarctic continent tens of millions of years ago during a sub-tropical or temperate phase. Then as the continent drifted into the south polar region, ice gradually entombed the city. At some point the Ancients abandoned it and left earth. (I also believe this was probably the original reference point for the Asgard's line about the Ancients "moving on from this region of space long ago.") I would like to add my own suggestion that the city's time in sub-tropical Antarctica may have been a true "golden age" for the Ancients.

When SG1 was renewed for season 8, changes obviously had to be made. They decided Atlantis would be found in the Pegasus galaxy after fleeing Earth from a plague. So the timeline was modified. Instead of being entombed in the ice, the city blasted off into space some 5 to 10 million years ago, leaving only an outpost on Earth. But that's the only part of the timeline that was really changed. The scene on Procralush Taonas is still in the story. Jack still utters the words "Terra Atlantus", the former referring to Earth, the latter referring to the city. And the continental drift is still part of the city's story. The timeline only changes at the point where the city takes off for Pegasus.

So I hope you can all see where I've been coming from on this, and why I believe this supports Atlantis being the home of the Ancients on Earth for 40 to 50 million years, and not just a city-ship they built at the eleventh hour to evacuate themselves from the plague.

[immhotep]

OK so in actual Fact Atlantis isnt as advanced as Vis uban could have been. So the ancients basicly took an old ship, that perhaps they moved around from outpost to outpost as part of a capital for a mobile civilization. While Vis Uban could have been the permenant capitol for the ancient if they found a cure for the plague..

[Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper]

OK so in actual Fact Atlantis isnt as advanced as Vis uban could have been. So the ancients basicly took an old ship, that perhaps they moved around from outpost to outpost as part of a capital for a mobile civilization. While Vis Uban could have been the permenant capitol for the ancient if they found a cure for the plague..

Quite possibly. The likelihood is, that TPTB didn't really give much thought to what Vis Uban was suppose to be. I doubt they even had a design in mind. All they showed were some stone ruins that were millions of years old. But for all we know those ruins may have surrounded a centrally located city-ship as well.

As for Atlantis being much older, well one thing I guess we can conclude is that the Ancients built 'em to last. Atlantis of course could have been retrofitted many times to include the same technology as Vis Uban.

As a minor point, I tend to think of Atlantis as a city that happens to be a ship, rather than a ship that happens to be a city. (As I said, a minor point.)

[4EverFree]

There is evidence that the city we know as Atlantis is not the first of its design. In SGA's "The Tower", we discover another such city although seemingly older and partially burried in the ground. So it is possible that Atlantis is not the city we see taking off from earth so many eons ago after the plague event. I would also agree that Atlantis could have been upgraded over the course of time after it left the Milky Way and its time in Pegasus as the Ancients were still researching and making discoveries and further advancement. This could well explain the differences in technological design from the Ancient repositories and long range communication devices here in the Milky way as opposed to what we find in Pegasus.

I see no evidence of the level of advancement of Vis Uban other than ruins which, in fairness, could just have been subject to the eons of weathering, disrepair, and occupation of nomadic peoples settling there via the gate. It was also supposedly incomplete so it is difficult for me to compare something that never quite was (Vis Uban), to something that has had a few million years for potential improvement (Atlantis class city ship).

The Ancients expanded throughout the Milky Way over the course of millions of years. They probably clung to city ship(s) as they migrated from planet to planet leaving gates behind to make traveling between them more convienient, although now wonder if the Destiny had any part in seeding Milky Way with gates. In any case this jewel of the empire I hear about was not neccessarily their single most advanced achievement, simply a place for them to finally settle down after moving around for so long. I think of it more as a milestone after reaching a level of satisfaction with what they had accomplished thus far. Perhaps it was also to be a central key link in the empire and even a refuge, although in regards to that time period I've heard of no real threat to their civilization (other than the alleged Ori plague).

I could go on, but I just realized that there is alot about the Ancient story line that's inconsistent and TPTB probably never intended for the story to stand up to this level of scrutiny. It is fictional, albeit enjoyable, TV show after all.

[Murzin]

well there is no evidence there was more than atlantis inside MW galaxy, and in the first epi of SGA they show atlantis leaving earth, it looks like it was "parked" on top of the facility at antartica, so what i would assume is it was a "landing pad" for the city and thats what all the outposts are. something for the city to land in, and then in the PG they created at least 1 more city which over time got covered up.

[Dragon_Heart]

some decent views, but the ancients pre date the asgard millions of years, either they met them while travelling or the asgard went looking. atlantis was more than likely built on earth, as we see it depart and head for pegasus in the first episode of atlantis.

[Murzin]

no question that the ancients predate the asgard by a very long period of time, but the ancients were alive at the same time as the asgard and in the MW. of that i am sure of.