The Ancients. Who are they really???

[Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper]

I wonder when they developed the technology for the Repository as I don't think it's been shown on Atlantis.
Has anyone got any thoughts about this?

Funny you should ask because, yes, by an amazing coincidence I do have some thoughts on this.

One of the major questions is: How old are the Repositories? When were they built? Pre-Pegasus or Post-Pegasus? (We're excluding 'During Pegasus' for the time being because we have insufficienct evidence that the Ancients were active in MW during that era.)

This was discussed in the recent Great Alliance thread. One suggestion was that the Repositories were Post-Pegasus due to the repository not recognizing Teal'c when he peered into it due to his symbiote and that therefore the Ancients knew of the Goa'uld and programmed the libraries accordingly. This was countered however, by the suggestion that the ATA gene had more to do with it, recognizing only Jack, or that Teal'c had a slightly differing physiology which the repositories never recognized.

I believe there is strong evidence that the Repositories were built Pre-Pegagus for the following reason. When Jack downloaded the knowledge of the Ancients into his brain (for the second time) in "Lost City" for the specific purpose of locating the Lost City, the knowledge he acquired took him and SG1 on a search which first led them to Procralush Taonas. There they found an ancient hologram that revealed the location of Atlantis to be. . .where? Antarctic on Earth. If the repositories had been built Post-Pegasus (or even during Pegasus) their information would have been more current, and likely would have led Jack on a search that would have revealed Pegasus to be the city's location, not Antarctica. But it didn't. In other words the repositories didn't know that Atlantis had left Earth for Pegasus. Instead it led Jack to the Repositories' last known location of the city . . . Antarctica, meaning that the repositories' were likely built before the plague, placing them in the 5 - 10 million year-old age category.

But could Repositories have stood for five million years or more? Or the ruins of Heliopolis (Torment of Tantalus) for that matter? Well, apparently they could, and we know that from the discovery of the ruins of Vis Uban in "Fallen" (S.7). Vis Uban was the last city to be built by the Ancients in MW. We know it was under construction just before the Plague of 5 - 10 million years ago, which in turn dates the ruins to be the same age. And if those ruins could have survived those eons, then perhaps so too could the Repositories. Despite the appearance of some of these ruins it's possible the Ancients knew how to make their structures last (providing of course that geological or glacial forces didn't intervene, which likely would have happened in some cases.)

[thekillman]

well i think repositories werent made to learn. the first they encountered said "the legacy of the ancients".

not lanteans. also, the repositories were most likely made so that after the plague, the knowledge could be regained and nothing was lost

[Betelgeuze]

The repositories were build post-Pegasus, they contained information about the replicators, who were build in the Pegasus Galaxy. If the repostories were build pre-pegasus not only would Jack think that Atlantis was on Earth, but he also would not know that the ZPM was depleted and that he needed to get the one from Praclarush Taonas. Jack knew that they could not get to Atlantis in time to stop the invasion. So he got a ZPM to use the outpost.

[Crazy Tom]

This is possibly where the Ancient Repositories of knowledge came in. Fast learners they may have been, but it seems that they could download all of their accumulated knowledge into their own memories, and if every Ancient could do that, it would make their race very powerful indeed. Thoughts?

It would, but by my understanding the repositories contained far to much information for any one indivudual to trully understand, it's possible the ancients used a milder form of htis technology for instruction.

[thekillman]

i doubt such vast amounts of info would be used for mere education: it was preservation. perhaps similar tech was used for education? besides, MW ancients were much more nature oriented than lanteans

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Funny you should ask because, yes, by an amazing coincidence I do have some thoughts on this.

One of the major questions is: How old are the Repositories? When were they built? Pre-Pegasus or Post-Pegasus? (We're excluding 'During Pegasus' for the time being because we have insufficienct evidence that the Ancients were active in MW during that era.)

This was discussed in the recent Great Alliance thread. One suggestion was that the Repositories were Post-Pegasus due to the repository not recognizing Teal'c when he peered into it due to his symbiote and that therefore the Ancients knew of the Goa'uld and programmed the libraries accordingly. This was countered however, by the suggestion that the ATA gene had more to do with it, recognizing only Jack, or that Teal'c had a slightly differing physiology which the repositories never recognized.

I believe there is strong evidence that the Repositories were built Pre-Pegagus for the following reason. When Jack downloaded the knowledge of the Ancients into his brain (for the second time) in "Lost City" for the specific purpose of locating the Lost City, the knowledge he acquired took him and SG1 on a search which first led them to Procralush Taonas. There they found an ancient hologram that revealed the location of Atlantis to be. . .where? Antarctic on Earth. If the repositories had been built Post-Pegasus (or even during Pegasus) their information would have been more current, and likely would have led Jack on a search that would have revealed Pegasus to be the city's location, not Antarctica. But it didn't. In other words the repositories didn't know that Atlantis had left Earth for Pegasus. Instead it led Jack to the Repositories' last known location of the city . . . Antarctica, meaning that the repositories' were likely built before the plague, placing them in the 5 - 10 million year-old age category.

But could Repositories have stood for five million years or more? Or the ruins of Heliopolis (Torment of Tantalus) for that matter? Well, apparently they could, and we know that from the discovery of the ruins of Vis Uban in "Fallen" (S.7). Vis Uban was the last city to be built by the Ancients in MW. We know it was under construction just before the Plague of 5 - 10 million years ago, which in turn dates the ruins to be the same age. And if those ruins could have survived those eons, then perhaps so too could the Repositories. Despite the appearance of some of these ruins it's possible the Ancients knew how to make their structures last (providing of course that geological or glacial forces didn't intervene, which likely would have happened in some cases.)

Why then in Insiders did Baal steal the list of gate addresses downloaded into the computer by Oneill when he had the repository knowledge the first time? Also, he wasn't looking for Atlantis. he was getting the ZPM in order to power the Atlantus outpost. He knew Atlantis wasn't on Earth. Also, proclarush taonas is an outpost predating the plague, not the repository itself.

[Major Mike David]

Hey! Sorry Ladies and Gentlemen. I've been having several hectic weeks and its been pretty insane. Anywho, I'll be posting PART II here pretty quick after I respond to this comment and to maybe two others.

Thanks!

I don't now to whom you're responding in this post. But i was referring to absolute ideas of good and evil. They do not exist. What makes an action wrong or right are the consequences. Thinking in terms of actions and consquences makes you have to examine your decisions more closely, because your actions do not just effect your situation, but that of other people. When people act out of absolute ideals of right or wrong it makes them less likely to care about the effect their actions have on others.

Stating something that does not exist is an arrogant statement. You believe that the absolute ideas of good and evil does not exist in this world or universe. Such a belief reminds me of the quote made by William Shakespeare:
“There is nothing either good or bad. But thinking makes it so.”
Even though he was one of the world’s greatest of poets, author, and philosopher, he did not understand the meaning of good and evil.

Good and evil are roots of mankind and will continue to be so. Depending on your own belief however, you will have a different opinion where good and evil decisions and motives come from. I myself am a Christian but not a cultural Christian. I have my separate ideals on Christianity and believe me that I’ve seen both sides of Christianity and I am not your average so called Christian. So please do not side step the subject and judge me. My beliefs are different on many topics. I have my own morals that I personally hold to believe are true. Now everyone is entitled to their own choice and that is why we have free will to believe what we wish to consider right and wrong.

So the discussion about good and evil will continue all day and will never end until someone like me points out that it is a difference between beliefs what we think good and evil is and where it comes from, etc.

By the way, the morals on right and wrong consequences and choices directly derive from good and evil.

That morals vary between perspectives is a fact. For example in Saudi Arabia it is morally acceptable that woman are treated as second rate citizens, and homosexuals as criminals. In my country women have the same rights as men, and homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals.

Well said.

Comes along another person with a different religion, and a different moral system, who claims that what is right is what his religion says. Now who is right you or this other person?

This is a question that can never be answered unless the two individuals agree upon it if they share the same belief. Period. An individual having an opposite belief to that of someone else’s will quite surely disagree with the individual’s opinion, therefore the question can never be answered if the two individuals share a totally opposite view.

I point out that, this question of yall’s debate can never be agreed upon unless if the two of you somehow convince the other is right or wrong, thus winning that person over to either one of yall’s side.

That is not entirely true. Our behaviours are influenced by our evolution. So certain notions of right and wrong emerged because they increase chances of survival. Morality to some extend is the result of our evolution as a social animal.

Because of my belief, I do not believe we evolved. But I am willing to talk about it but I know that within myself I know what I believe is true. It something called Faith and it is very, very difficult for me to explain why, thus I will avoid answering any questions pertaining to why I do not believe in evolution or how I know what I believe in is true.

I do not condemn people in believing in evolution whatsoever. The concept of it is interesting but other than that, it doesn’t matter to me. However because of the way how SG has produced its material, plot, and history of Stargate, I am willing for yall’s sake to “pretend” that evolution is true, even though I don’t believe in it. And since I’m writing stories for a new fanfiction that I and Mcoy are producing, I will not try to twist what SG’s belief is about evolution. I will stay true to SG’s morals and continue on with the basic premise of it all.

in the eye of the universe, we arent "good". we killed so many aliens its not even funny.
the goauld did too. we betrayed. we killed again, we brought doom down upon the galaxy. but we regard ourselves as "good". wraith are not evil. they are doing this because its natural, just as natural as us eating meat. because meat starts a war against us, would that mean we have to become vegitarians? or do we kill the bad meat?

We’ve killed alien species that WERE a threat to other species that DESIRED to coexist in the galaxy. If a species suddenly decides to impose its ideological views on another species and enslave it, that species can be viewed as a threat, such as the Goa’uld and the Ori. We did not betray any species unless they betrayed us first or if we did, it was because we saw that species as harmful and saw possible threats in the future and thus we took action in order to safely protect what is right and good. We killed species that attacked us or we killed in self-defense.

There are mistakes though where we accidently took the wrong action or misfired, etc. That is a mistake, not a betrayal, a mistake and every race makes mistakes. Look at the Ancients for example. The doom was inevitable anyways, if we hadn’t acted during the time that we did, who knows what could have occurred and we know that it was the right thing to do in order to stop that species from continuing its assimilation of technology. Which we know that non-biological species as, the Replicators.

Now as for the Wraith, we mistakenly awoke them from their slumber, therefore bringing doom to the galaxy. But what did we do in return as a payment for this mistake? We attacked the Wraith, killed Wraith, defended and protected innocent worlds that were to be fed on by the Wraith. We FOUGHT for those that were weak and that could not fight. We have the technology to defeat the Wraith.
The Wraith had it coming, and it is technically not morally wrong to kill Wraith, because in the beginning the KILLED humans, and fed on them. Even though they fed on humans, we saw that as murder in our eyes because we see it that way. My reason for that being is below.

The Wraith are NOT natural. They are a mistake, a flaw, an abomination. You know why? Because it wasn’t meant to be. A REAL species evolves through bacteria or whatever if I’m correct, and thus evolving into an animal, etc. And continuing on to state of higher intellectuality. The Wraith DID NOT evolve this way. They evolved by the Iratus Bug, obviously attaching itself or infecting a human, and consequently rewriting that human’s DNA. After a period of time of evolution, that Wraith would finally come to its true potential of being smart, etc.

However for the Wraith, just like every other species, they need to eat. Coincidentally, they have to feed on humans. The reason for this being is actually unclear because as far as I’m concerned, can’t Wraith feed on animals either? Why did all of the sudden did they NEED Humans to feed on? That’s the real question to be asking. So the Wraith are actually not technically a race that evolved in the “true” sense that other species did, so it can be reasonable to state or opinionated that the Wraith aren’t a “true” evolved species. But instead an accident that should had never occurred, but it did, and the past is the past.

[Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper]

The repositories were build post-Pegasus, they contained information about the replicators, who were build in the Pegasus Galaxy.

I'd much appreciate it if you'd tell me which episode references this, just to save me the search. Thanks.

It seems unlikely that the Repositories could have been built Post-Pegasus because the Ancients had no civilization Post-Pegasus. This is evidenced in the conversation with Morgan Le Fey in "Pegasus Project" (S.10).

When we first abandoned Atlantis all those millennia ago, the Earth was so harsh…its people… so primitive by comparison, there was no hope of living among them as Lantians or rebuilding our societies…so instead, we spread out to many lands…some of us planting a few small seeds of civilization among the first tribes of man…others making their way to the Stargate at your southern pole…still others choosing live the remainder of our lives in seclusion and meditation.

Suppose however that, in Post-Pegasus, a few isolated splinter groups of Ancients did manage somehow, after leaving Earth through the Antarctic gate again, to erect the Repositories on a few isolated worlds. Why would a dying race leave their knowledge lying around, for other races, especially a malevelent species like the Goa'uld (which the Ancients would have been aware of by that time), to later find and attempt to plunder it, ATA gene notwithstanding?

If the repostories were build pre-pegasus not only would Jack think that Atlantis was on Earth, but he also would not know that the ZPM was depleted and that he needed to get the one from Praclarush Taonas. Jack knew that they could not get to Atlantis in time to stop the invasion. So he got a ZPM to use the outpost.

A valid point and difficult to counter I admit. I could give a few "could have" or "might have" answers. For instance, while Jack might not have known, solely from the knowledge of the repositories, that the ZPM was depleted, his mind wasn't totally consumed by the Ancients' knowledge. His own awareness of himself and his collegues was still there and that part of him knew that millions of years had passed and, from this combined knowledge, he reasoned that the Antarctic ZPM was depleted. Or it could be argued that Jack's taking the ZPM from PT was the logical thing to do since the outpost would never be used again, a fortuitous move on his part since the Antarctic ZPM was dead. But your argument is valid too.

Also, he wasn't looking for Atlantis. he was getting the ZPM in order to power the Atlantus outpost. He knew Atlantis wasn't on Earth. Also, proclarush taonas is an outpost predating the plague, not the repository itself.

I don't think we really know that visiting PT was for the sole purpose of getting the ZPM, nor if Jack already knew that Atlantis was not on Earth. The quest was to locate the Lost City and any weapons that may help against Anubis. Jack had to sit in the 'chair' on PT and view the hologram. Whether the image helped him draw the knowledge from his mind as to the Lost City's location and identity, or whether it was just to point out it's location to his SG1 teammates, we don't know for sure. But it was only at that time, after viewing the hologram, that he could identify the city by name, "Terra Atlantus".

This raises another question. How did the repositories know at all that there were ZPMs on Earth and PT, let alone one that was active and one that was depleted? Whether the repositories are 5 thousand years old (Post-Pegaus) or 10 million years old (Pre-Pegasus), the information from them would be out of date in the present day of SG1.
Unless, that is. . .the repositories themselves could detect the presence anywhere in the galaxy of an acitve ZPM. That would offer another explanation as to why Jack knew to go to PT. The information downloaded into him would have been current as to the ZPM's active status. If this were the case, then this information would prove neither my Pre-Pegasus theory, nor the Post-Pegasus theory. I should also mentioned that "During Pegasus" can't be completely ruled out either, but I won't venture into that topic here at this time. (The recent Great Alliance thread expounds upon that.)

Why then in Insiders did Baal steal the list of gate addresses downloaded into the computer by Oneill when he had the repository knowledge the first time?

Not sure I follow you here Shep. Baal stole the list in an effort to locate Merlin's weapon. Moros/Merlin created the weapon in seclusion, somewhere and somewhen after he returned from Pegasus then hid it on a planet, presumably a former 'Ancients' world, at one of addresses on the list. Guess I'm dumb. What am I missing here?

Oh, and a side point which may or may not be relevant: In Insiders, Sam speaks of ruins found on Sahal that are over 40,000 years old (During Pegasus). Is that evidence that Ancients had some presence in MW at that time? If so, could the repositories have been built then?

All theories still in play.

And sorry if I rambled too much on this. I believe the Major is returning to give us Part 2 of his theories. I'm heading for the theatre. Take it Major.

[Murzin]

he would know where all the alterran bases and outposts were. he would also know how often and how much they were used.

he would know the best place to get an undepleted ZPM, and thats probably not the only place he could have gone to get one, just the highest chance for the least used ZPM.

also, the repositories would not nesseccarily have to had information on replicators. by that time SG-1 knew how replicators work through discussions with asgard especially the talks between thor and sam. plus being connected to the asgard computer, he would have access to the asgard research on the replicators.

[thekillman]

MMD. i believe Evolution. and i see people trying to prove it. but when i look at the Creationists, i see people sitting there, pointing at the bible. i ask them if they believe it. no. have i read it. yes. welll thats your own personal choice.

thats how creationists prove their right. which i hate. because apart from the occasional discovery channel/national geographic channel programm which is about finding something, i dont see much people trying to prove it. we live in the age of proof. guilty? prove it. innocent? prove it. were you there? prove it. does god exist? prove it. thats how people think. and i cant stand it if you believe something just to believe.

as to the ancients:

jack had the repository, and he knew how much time had passed. he couldve easily deducted from that that PT still had a ZPM. arctic was probably depleted long ago. because of the plague, it couldnt be replaced. so it was around the plague that the repository was last updated.

[Buba uognarf]

MMD. i believe Evolution. and i see people trying to prove it. but when i look at the Creationists, i see people sitting there, pointing at the bible. i ask them if they believe it. no. have i read it. yes. welll thats your own personal choice.

thats how creationists prove their right. which i hate. because apart from the occasional discovery channel/national geographic channel programm which is about finding something, i dont see much people trying to prove it. we live in the age of proof. guilty? prove it. innocent? prove it. were you there? prove it. does god exist? prove it. thats how people think. and i cant stand it if you believe something just to believe.

as to the ancients:

jack had the repository, and he knew how much time had passed. he couldve easily deducted from that that PT still had a ZPM. arctic was probably depleted long ago. because of the plague, it couldnt be replaced. so it was around the plague that the repository was last updated.

Creationists also try and prove they're right by pointing out the flaws in evolution. To say that all creationists do is point at the bible and ignore any kind of empirical evidence is a major wrogn assumption.

[thekillman]

ahem. everyone knows Evolution is as complete as science itself. but logic and evidence also explain that its impossible to find every last link. you cant find evidence for everything. you cant find a fossile for every creature. cause there are certain circumstances that dont repeat itself over and over every day, making fossiles of everything. its not possible. but how much proof is there, that whats in the bible is true? yea, there was a fellow named jesus and he did annoy the romans to hell. and he was executed. does that mean bible jesus exists, QED? no. it only means there was a jesus. maybe it was a different jesus? or the bible made an extreme version of that story. the man in the chest was though dead, but he was somehow ressurected because of a medical condition. we hear stories of people thought dead were still alive. people frozen who are reanimated. does that mean this jesus fellow was just very lucky? or did he really have healing powers? he walked on water. well, in my country there is a "sea" with deep and undeep parts. sometimes its partially dry and you can walk on it. perhaps "jesus" walked on an undeep part, but people thought he walked on water? ofcourse there couldve been judes enslaved by the egyptians. doesnt mean god blessed them and made them escape.

the point isnt saying there was a jesus, point is proving its the bible jesus. which is probably untrue.

because Evolution has weak spots, doesnt mean its untrue, or that creationism is untrue. we arent here to fight who's wrong or right. Evolution exists because we are trying to explain why things are as they are. we are seeking the truth, not fighting a war. and the people following Evolution try to elaborate it, to make it more complete. Creationism just say they are right, and just point out the problems in Evolution, problems which exist because you cant have a fossile of every creature in 4500 million years.

there is evidence that the bible Flood was actually the flooding of i believe the black sea. there was a natural barrier between Turkey and the part of Europe belonging to it. it broke, the land flooded. some people couldve seen it as the biblican flood.

[Betelgeuze]

The Wraith are NOT natural. They are a mistake, a flaw, an abomination. You know why? Because it wasn’t meant to be. A REAL species evolves through bacteria or whatever if I’m correct, and thus evolving into an animal, etc. And continuing on to state of higher intellectuality. The Wraith DID NOT evolve this way. They evolved by the Iratus Bug, obviously attaching itself or infecting a human, and consequently rewriting that human’s DNA. After a period of time of evolution, that Wraith would finally come to its true potential of being smart, etc.

In the stargate universe the current humans did not evolve naturally either, they were created by the Ancients. It takes billions of years to get from a single celled organism to a multicelllar one as complex as a human. What i think that happend, is that the Ancients created humans who are at an earlier stage in Ancient evolution and let them evolve naturally from that point.

The only difference between the Wraith and humans is that the humans were created intentionally and the Wraith were an accident. For both species a part of their evolution was not the result of a natural progress.

The repositories were build post-Pegasus, they contained information about the replicators, who were build in the Pegasus Galaxy.

I'd much appreciate it if you'd tell me which episode references this, just to save me the search. Thanks.

New Order part 2, Thor believes that Jack posesses knowledge that can defeat the replicators. Jack uses the knowledge he gained from the repository to create a weapon agains the replicators.

[thekillman]

humans all evolved from earth. we evolved naturally. the ancient and goauld spread them. its possible ancients influenced our genetic makeup to become humanlike

[Betelgeuze]

humans all evolved from earth. we evolved naturally. the ancient and goauld spread them. its possible ancients influenced our genetic makeup to become humanlike

No, i don't think so Janus said that humans are the second evolution of the Ancients. I doubt he would say that if they just altered the genome of an existing humanoid species. Lets not forget that the Ancients arrived on Earth 30 million years ago, the oldest evidence of humanoids so far dates back about 3,6 million years (on our Earth). And Anubis said that the Ancients used the Dakara device to re-create life after the plague. So even if initially humans evolved naturally on Earth the current humans were created by the Ancients.