The Ancients. Who are they really???

[Crazy Tom]

Good start. Howver, I would like to point out something:

In "Rising", the hologram map gives us a very key piece of information regarding the seeding of life in Pegasus; it took a very long time.

The map show planets slowly turning "blue". Actually, there are two "blue" colors; a dark one, and a light one. I will assume that the light blue planets are directly Lantian, and the dark blues ones are human. (based on the fact that the Lantian system is itself light blue)

The fact that the planets turned slowly, and individually in most cases, provides a strong argument for the theory that the Lantians did not in fact use a Daraka-like device. In fact, the exceptions to this individual seeding are in themselves an argument; that is, the planets which are seeded simultaneously are always quite close. This lends me to believe that the Lantians seeded the planets at the same time that they dropped Stargates on them.

To restate, I must conclude that the Lantian seeding of life occurred at the same time as their placement of the Stargates, and thus there was no need for (or indeed use for, due to the fact that the Stargates weren't even placed yet) a Dakara-style device.

Mcoy! I love you man! I never would have noticed that! *goes to do more reseach*

[TheAccended]

MMD i love this topic. It is something that i have argued about for a significant period of time. Your points about the distinctions between the MW, Ori and Pegasus galaxy ancients are very correct. There are flaws and differences that cannot be explained simply by movement and time. This is not a philosophical point, but the ancients are at a level where thier technology can transcend the moral laws of ends justify the means. Their ends are beyond the means of those they seeded life too, but thier means are also capable of trouncing the ends to start with. Lets take our most recent example, the Attero device and explain how this could have worked with complete safety. The ancients are capable of locking stargates, shutting them off from the gate system of pegusus entirely. They did this for 10,000 years. We have the technology to upload programs, macros, viruses and the like to entire gate systems. They could have forwarded a lockout command to the gate system for an unspecific period of time (in times of emergency on earth, usual transport methods are suspended...) switched the attero device on and then waited for the wraith to die out. Yes there might be a small loss of people, but no more than 10,000 years of culling. The wraith would have been dealt with entirely with very little issue.

This is my first ppost in this thread, for the time being but i will definitely be keeping my eye on it.

I would like to interject that the Council most likely didn't know of the device due to Janus working in secret. Even after he shut the device down they may still not have know about it, otherwise they would surely have destroyed it for posing to great a risk.

But I have to agree that if they had known about the device that would have been a pratical strategy to implement. This device demonstrates the level of knowledge relative to everyone else that the ancients possessed. If a single ancient, Janus brilliant as he was, could create a device of this magnitude on his own. Imagine what the collective could have conceived. Maybe it is for this reason that the ancients became so cautions with their technology in Pegasus. Perhaps the fact that they could create such things scared them. Perhaps they feared that if they were ever backed into a corner with now way out that they would do something that would irrevocably effect the universe around them.

[immhotep]

I agree, it is without question, that the ancients were capable of Godlike potential in their technology. The very fact that they seeded life in two, maybe more galaxies, shows the levels of thier power. They are a true multigalactic power that created life, sentience and a level of technology few have reached. The Asgard and the Orii are the only (known) life forms to possess technology that in some fields rival the ancients. Yet as we know the ancients are scared. They are not a waring people, the ancient alliance was created to preserve life, to share knowledge, language, culture and in some circumstances military aid for the shared allied collective. It is highly likely that the alliance consisted of tribes of Humans, seeded or derived from the ancients that had different philosophical views. The asgard were 100,000 years ago alike to humans (perhaps an offshoot from an early ancient colony in the ida galaxy), the Nox are human but with ascended or advanced human powers/technology alike to the ancients, and while we do not know much of the furlings i believe that they too are ancient derived.

My own theory of the ancients is that after arriving in the MW, and after millions of years of cultural evolutions multiple factions of ancients emerged, The Lantians (scientists and engineers), the Nox (peaceful), the Asgard (explorers, ending up in Ida), the Furlings are perhaps isolationists or religious types, the Alterans which are at this point the collective human body in this region of space. These 5 factions (maybe more depending on time scale of the allience, some move up in power, others wane in prominence) but all tribes of ancients that branched off from a single alteran collective that fleed from the orii. The Alliance could simply be the allied factions and tribes of the Alteran's within the MW. Later it was reformed after the Asgard, Nox and ancients reconnected(or at least the Asgard and the Nox)

We as a "new Tribe" of ancient, that of a hybrid of asgard and ancient, are likely to be ideal candidates to lead the "new alliance of the great races" because we have access or know or have befriended all races of the alliance besides the furlings (although have interacted on some level) and are therefore consdiers New Alterans. Meaning that we now represent the dominant human lifeform in this time. Out populating the nox or the asgard and therefore becoming the leader of the alteran descended peoples.

We have Asgard retrofitted ships, Nox allies, Lantian ships and intel, and knowledge of all the ancients past and present. To many we could be seen as the new Alterans. To debrief, the Taur "first ones" are actually " The New Alterans". Rather than the First humans, we are more like the Prime human civilzation, just like the Altera were in the time when they united their factions under the banner of a single alliance.

This explains an awful lot, including why the ancients in the MW and the PG are different, they are not the same. The Lantians were a seperate faction of the Altera before Pegasus but travelled there to escape the plague, leaving the other Alterans (the main populus) to die out or ascend, without the knowledge of Dakara for example. We dont actually know which faction ruled earth, as we have elements from a great many mythology on our planet. So its possible all of the alliance at one time existed on earth. Earth is on the outskirts of our galaxy; meaning if the various tribes from Ida, the MW and Pegasus wanted to meet, Earth would be a suitable location, so various tribes settled there.

Because the Lantians and the Alterans are different in many ways it would explain the differences in technology and tactical and ethical and various other things that differ between SG1 and SGA.

Tep

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Relativistic right-and-wrong. Ughh. I get headaches debating people with that view.

Quite frankly, (on the subject of right and wrong) the Nox are the most evil race in the universe. They have the power and ability to stop any of a thousand atrocities, but instead they just sit by. That is the definition of evil, if nothing else is.


And may I point out that the Council must have known something about the Attero Device? After all, you surely don't believe Atlantis' gate was inactive for three days?

[immhotep]

In what sense are the Nox evil? The nox are IMO good, only because they refuse to take a side, are they considered evil. They are Switzerland with advanced powers. Yes they can cloak, heal, raise the dead and have floating cities. But so do we...we have access to the telchak device and the sarcophagi. We have Sodan, Asgard, goauld cloaks. We have medical technology beyond most of the galaxy. o how are we any different to the nox, the only difference is that they chose not to fight..

[knowles2]

Relativistic right-and-wrong. Ughh. I get headaches debating people with that view.

Quite frankly, (on the subject of right and wrong) the Nox are the most evil race in the universe. They have the power and ability to stop any of a thousand atrocities, but instead they just sit by. That is the definition of evil, if nothing else is.


And may I point out that the Council must have known something about the Attero Device? After all, you surely don't believe Atlantis' gate was inactive for three days?

How do you know they have the power. Yes they extraordinary advance and process technology and abilities beyond what we currently process. But then again so did the ancients and they got their asses handed to them a bunch of life sucking aliens who seem quite average in the department of war. Well to be fair the only tactics we seen the wraith used are suicide runs or launching massive numbers at their enemies. Apart from that we have not seen any strong tactical moves on the part of the wraith. They also seem make amateurish mistakes pretty often to.

As to who the ancients are, they are what the writers want or need them to be depending on the story idea they have got at the time.

[thekillman]

the nox are terribly advanced, because only such an advanced race can choose not to fight and live

[TheAccended]

Relativistic right-and-wrong. Ughh. I get headaches debating people with that view.

Quite frankly, (on the subject of right and wrong) the Nox are the most evil race in the universe. They have the power and ability to stop any of a thousand atrocities, but instead they just sit by. That is the definition of evil, if nothing else is.


And may I point out that the Council must have known something about the Attero Device? After all, you surely don't believe Atlantis' gate was inactive for three days?

But what right would the Nox have to interfere in the affairs of another race regardless of their technology. Just because they have the knowledge doesn't mean they can swoop down and impose their since of right and wrong even if it was to that worlds benefit. I mean how would we like it if an alien race descended upon us and began telling us what to do, With their excuse being we are far wiser than you are so you need to do what we say without question because we know best. The Nox don't appear to be against giving advice, but in terms of direct interference that is something they will not do. I think they abide by the philosophy, and the Ancients and Asgard as well, it is better for you to find your own way and learn from your own mistakes, but all three don't appear to be to shy when it comes giving advice, but that is as far as they will go it appears.

The council may have found out that Janus was responsible for then the recent chaos but not known exactly how he caused it. That might also be why in 'Before I Sleep' it appeared that the council had placed restriction on his activities and was reluctant to consider his plan for Weir. Best intentions bad results.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

And may I point out that the Council must have known something about the Attero Device? After all, you surely don't believe Atlantis' gate was inactive for three days?

If Janus began the project at the beginning of the siege, then it stands to reason that the council wouldn't know, as they would have retreated to Atlantis, meaning no contact with the rest of the galaxy. Also, it's possible that the Ancients stopped using their gate during the siege. Janus could have stopped the project, returned to the city, and the council wouldn't know a thing.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

It is precisely that refusal to fight that makes them evil.

And why must people always twist help into some wacky version of "interfering"? If the Goa'uld are attacking a world, and the Nox came in and got rid of their fleet for the natives (they need not even kill them; they could just "send them away' somehow), and we have no reason to assume, from all that we've seen of them, that they are not capable of removing the Goa'uld...then I would be hard pressed to find any native of that world who would fuss about "interference".

Not only is that argument absurd (just how absurd is a topic for another discussion), but it is in fact self defeating. The lives of the people that the Nox could save have already been "interfered" in irreparably. The Nox are not intervening in any "natural order" (another absurd term). They are restoring those people's lives and (partially) repairing the damage already done; exactly what our SG teams are lauded for doing.

The fact that the Nox can be so callous as to sit around doing nothing while the rest of the galaxy is suffering countless atrocities shows the depth of their moral failure. That is evil, pure and simple. If someone or something is in pain, or suffering needlessly, and you can stop it, it is your duty as a rational being to aid them. If a person is suffering for a (good) reason, it is your duty to alleviate that suffering. If you are content to to sit and relax just to avoid "interfering", then yes, you are evil.

I might even say totally depraved.

[thekillman]

all the nox had to do is remove the symbionts from the hosts, and all would be over.

look the problem here is: they're right. you cannot just interfere. but denying help, "because there are other ways than yours", and just leaving, could be interpretated as evil. but arent we evil then? i mean, we're not exactly the least warlike here. killed tons of aliens, annihilated two machine races, annihilated the ori, brainwashed an entire race, if not multiple, killed thousands of wraith. we've commited xenocide so many times its not funny anymore.



still, what i dont get is an ancient aurora. jam it full with drones. then launch them en masse, at multiple hives. they could destroy entire hive fleets!!!

[Ltcolshepjumper]

all the nox had to do is remove the symbionts from the hosts, and all would be over.

look the problem here is: they're right. you cannot just interfere. but denying help, "because there are other ways than yours", and just leaving, could be interpretated as evil. but arent we evil then? i mean, we're not exactly the least warlike here. killed tons of aliens, annihilated two machine races, annihilated the ori, brainwashed an entire race, if not multiple, killed thousands of wraith. we've commited xenocide so many times its not funny anymore.


still, what i dont get is an ancient aurora. jam it full with drones. then launch them en masse, at multiple hives. they could destroy entire hive fleets!!!

That is kinda what happens when two species are at war, and neither side will just surrender. The Auroras should have been powerhouses. Give them plenty of drones, an intergalactic hyperdrive, and Atlantis shields. wraith won't stand a chance.

[TheAccended]

Weapons strengths between the different SG races is becoming more even the longer the series progresses. If we look back at SG-1 the Asgard could easily take care of the System Lords they were just lacking in numbers, the System Lords could easily take down Earth, and the Ancients were untouchable. But as things have progressed there really is no distinction between anyone anymore. Ancients weapons should be able to take down anything with little to no effort and their shields, zpm or not, should be almost as strong as Atlantis. For the wraith to be an even match, even in mass number, their weapons and defenses should be at least Asgard level or higher. For the Ancients to have lost just based on sheer number the wraith must also have outnumbered them 10,000 to 1 after their cloning was finished. But the cloning was just for land based combat, the only other explanation is those facilities also grew/cloned Hives, then needing zpm level power would make since.

[hamatau'ri]

My conclusion - Brilliant topic of discussion, brilliant race to begin with, but plotholes en masse ad infinitum

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I think the Ancients can be defined with a few words and those to me are highly advanced/evolved peaceful human scientists.
I personally don't put the Ori in the same vein as them coz they were obsessed with gaining power and wished to wipe out the Ancients coz they had different beliefs and were not willing to change.

The Ancients wanted to understand the universe and only fought when they had no other options.
They obviously felt responsible for the Wraith (rightly so) as they created them by accident (as far as I'm aware), had they not, then they would've just left without putting themselves in harms way trying to protect the various Human worlds in the Pegasus galaxy.
We have no idea how many Ancients lived in Pegasus before the Wraith began their siege of that galaxy, but I'm sure many millions if not billions of their people lost their lives fighting the Wraith and I think this show a commitment and care for their children.

My opinion is that the Ancients are a truly epic and amazing fictional race, possibly one of the greatest imaginary alien races every conceived for a science fiction series and I hope that Stargate will always feature them in some shape or form.