Asgard Neutrino Ion Generators - Vastly Inferior to ZPM's?

[jhkplaya888]

Where's the evidence that anyone could reprogram around whatever piece of tech makes the ATA key thing work?
The Travelers needed someone with the gene to provide the necessary DNA to allow them to operate an Ancient vessel, the Asgard apparently weren't aware that was possible to do otherwise they would have done the same, but still the Travelers would just be using some tech means to mimic the impulses someone like Sheppard would send out telepathically or however to direct the ship to do what they want it to do.

You don't know that for sure, the general mechanism that locks out Ancient tech and requires ATA activation is most likely similar throughout the Ancient's array of devices that used that security measure.
With Aterro the commands would most likely be just to activate or deactivate, whereas with a ship you've got all the impulses sent out for movement, stopping, firing, jumping away into hyperspace, reprogramming ships seems like it would be a lot more complex than a on/off switch.

Maybe so, but the Asgard would still need some mode of transport to get to explore and eventually find Janus's base.
Constructing a ship, to surprise the Ancients seems like the perfect back-up plan should the Wraith be defeated.
Those ships being able to penetrate Atlantis's shields, along with the gorilla tactics could mean whatever few Ancients left in the city would be entirely unprepared for that kind of attack.
We also know TLT were concerned with studying us to find a solution to their problem, this plan could have allowed them to do this unhindered if the Wraith and Ancients were both gone.

We're talking about Asgard that would be much less advanced 10,000 years ago than they were recently.
TBH we've all seen how good Puddle Jumpers are, yes they may rely on Drones as their offensive weapon, but as we saw in The Queen just one can turn the tide of a battle, now image a slightly larger ship, with similar, but enhanced capabilities (due to the increased size), even an Ancient transport ship should be miles better than what we've seen the Travelers possess.
Those Puddle Jumper like ships being completely Ancient, Ancient built and everything doesn't really fit with the Ancient's tech capabilities, the shields seem too weak.
How would 10,000 year old Asgard be able to match the Ancients in technology, they were getting very close and maybe surpassed them in recent times, but we're talking about a race with mother ships that would likely be a fair bit less powerful than the Baliskners were.
TLT ship just doesn't seem to have the strength of an Ancient ship, it's not like they were taking on Hives or cruisers, but a race with apparently a lot weaker forces than the Wraith's.

Well the ancients did lose to the wraith, so you cant really compare the asgards defeat with them. They said they were overwhelmed.
The ships weakness could be explained away with a plot hole. Cant have them winning. But i don't think the asgard would build an ancient ship like that for that one purpose. And i don't see how they could build anything at all. They had virtually no resources. Much easier explanation is they just used ancient ships. The asgard are a smart species. Perhaps the weapon had a higher level of encryption. You wouldn't have to re-program the whole ship you could just reprogram control. But perhaps the ancients put some extra safety measures for such a powerful weapon.

[Commander Thor]

maybe they were incomplete for all we knwo Ancients but in weapons last and as for explaining the shields idk maybe a prototype or something? TLT probably used what little resources they had left and finished construction with minimal weapons as a typr of run away ship if the s*** hit the fan

[Buba uognarf]

Many other examples, how about those ancient ships the asgard were using? How they got beat down by the weak technologically inferior traveler race. I find it hilarious the travelers are constantly destroying ancient things

They were never proven to be Ancient ships, and even if they were Ancient vessels we don't know what class they are. For all we know those were Ancient cargo freighters thus poorly armed.

This isn't really relevent to the topic though is it? We'll probably never find out the answer to who made those Lost Tribe ships seeing as the Atlantis movie has been put on hold...

[Commander Thor]

on an inferiority scale to ZMPs (1 to 10) id say NIGs are about a 6

close but yet so far

[kinseySG]

They were never proven to be Ancient ships, and even if they were Ancient vessels we don't know what class they are. For all we know those were Ancient cargo freighters thus poorly armed.

This isn't really relevent to the topic though is it? We'll probably never find out the answer to who made those Lost Tribe ships seeing as the Atlantis movie has been put on hold...

I doubt they where Ancient ships, the pegasus Asgard worked on fixing there genetic degeneration so they never managed to get close to the milkyway Asgard tech wise, there is also no indication that the ships where Ancient besides they got through the city sheild... but that as far as i am concerned was asgard tech can get through the city shield because of them being taught, and allied with the ancients...

[kinseySG]

Well the ancients did lose to the wraith, so you cant really compare the asgards defeat with them. They said they were overwhelmed.
The ships weakness could be explained away with a plot hole. Cant have them winning. But i don't think the asgard would build an ancient ship like that for that one purpose. And i don't see how they could build anything at all. They had virtually no resources. Much easier explanation is they just used ancient ships. The asgard are a smart species. Perhaps the weapon had a higher level of encryption. You wouldn't have to re-program the whole ship you could just reprogram control. But perhaps the ancients put some extra safety measures for such a powerful weapon.

your just chatting poop as well, the Asgard weren't actually evil, they where desperate to fix there genetic problems, breaking into Atlantis would destroy the alliance and probably mean war... the Asgard wouldn't risk being destroyed, also the need to find janus lan would also be pointless if the ancients won the war because there would be no wraith to use to tech against...

[stargater1990]

Many other examples, how about those ancient ships the asgard were using? How they got beat down by the weak technologically inferior traveler race. I find it hilarious the travelers are constantly destroying ancient things

theres no proof that those ship were ancient, and even if they were that dosent proove anything because for all we know, that was an ancient science ship thats lightly armoured and equiped with low yield weapons so there are numerous possible explanations that could be used to explain why those ships were destroyed without screaming plothole.

and the travelers are most likely quite advanced since theyve been flying around in space ships for 10,000 years and in that time, they would have surely upgraded their weapons and tech and maybe even incorporated ancient tech into the design.

[jhkplaya888]

theres no proof that those ship were ancient, and even if they were that dosent proove anything because for all we know, that was an ancient science ship thats lightly armoured and equiped with low yield weapons so there are numerous possible explanations that could be used to explain why those ships were destroyed without screaming plothole.

and the travelers are most likely quite advanced since theyve been flying around in space ships for 10,000 years and in that time, they would have surely upgraded their weapons and tech and maybe even incorporated ancient tech into the design.

Their ships were virtually falling apart, flying around 10,000 years without docking or upgrading much.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Well the ancients did lose to the wraith, so you cant really compare the asgards defeat with them. They said they were overwhelmed.

I wasn't, I was actually comparing Ancient technology to the Travelers, well that's what I meant., apologies if that wasn't clear.
What I was really getting at is if a Puddle Jumper can cause such significant damage to a Hive that that Hive then goes from almost defeating one to losing against one then a larger Ancient ship, built for a bigger purpose than being a small space shuttle should be even more powerful.
Even Asuran shields seemed perfectly able to withstand the Traveler's ships weapons, an Ancient ship, even 10,000 year old smaller ones than Auroras should be the same.

The ships weakness could be explained away with a plot hole.

You seem to like using that term.
I always thought a plot hole was what was left over when no reasonable explanation can be reached, that certainly isn't the case here.
Those ships just aren't good enough to be Ancient.

Cant have them winning.

Maybe so but there are good enough reasons why those ships could be Asgard or some other races besides the Ancients, like i said above they aren't good enough, the shields and weapons suck compared to Ancient tech and the Ancients wouldn't build an interplanetary vessel that couldn't deal with something that's perhaps on a par with a Wraith Cruiser.

But i don't think the asgard would build an ancient ship like that for that one purpose.

Why not?
TLT wanted to continue their research on Humans at all costs, the Asgard in Ida may not have been allies with the Lantians, otherwise they'd have helped them out with the Wraith and have a presence beside TLT in Pegasus.
We're not talking about the benevolent, nice mannered Ida guys, we're talking about a group with no regard for Human life, which probably included the Ancients.
The Ancients were in the way, they'd be weakened and were reduced to just Atlantis and perhaps a few ships towards the end of their time in Pegasus.
The Lost Tribe possessed technology to pass through their shields, we don't know when they developed that ability.

BTW the ships were for transport purposes as well as being able to pass through Ancient shields, since they don't use the Stargates, so they didn;t just have the one function.

And i don't see how they could build anything at all. They had virtually no resources.

That Asgard who revealed himself to Daniel never said they had virtually no resources, he said this (quoted from the Gateworld transcript of The Lost Tribe):

We lost our intergalactic ships in the first battle and we did not have the resources to build more.

Which obviously means they couldn't make anymore intergalactic ships, not that they couldn't make any interplanetary ships.
Info can be a resource and the skills to build intergalactic hyperdrives or the materials to make more could be very different to a regular, bog standard interplanetary drive.

Much easier explanation is they just used ancient ships.

No it's not, because they wouldn't be able to operate Ancient ships, since they all, so far have required the ATA key to work.

The asgard are a smart species. Perhaps the weapon had a higher level of encryption. You wouldn't have to re-program the whole ship you could just reprogram control. But perhaps the ancients put some extra safety measures for such a powerful weapon.

The extra security feature of Aterro was it needed that console to function, no mention of any extra encryption or anything was made, just the gene and the console.
TLT had the console, they didn't have the gene or a way to get around so obviously they couldn't operate a piece of Ancient tech that had the gene security feature.
So far anything recent (5 to 10 million years recent ) the Ancients built with a sensitive function has the ATA security thing, so it stands to reason that even a basic transport ship would have the same identical tech, therefore those ships are unlikely to be Ancient made, coz the Asgard wouldn't be able to use them.


Anyway like Buba's said this is off topic, there may be another thread to discuss this somewhere on Gateworld, if there isn't and you wanna continue the discussion then maybe you could create a thread for this purpose, or I will, just let me know what you'd like to do, or we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[stargater1990]

Their ships were virtually falling apart, flying around 10,000 years without docking or upgrading much.

no, they said that they once had the resources to build new ships so that means that they werent flying around for 10,000 years in that particular ship. secondly thats irrelevant, because you can upgrade something even though it looks as though its being held together by bubble gum and chicken wire because theres no rule that says upgrade has to mean getting something new, it can just means modifying their current tech to make it more powerful and better and i see no reason why while they were patching together their tech they couldnt have made some improvements.

and falling apart or not the fact remains that their tech was working so it dosent really matter how old it is because as long as its functional it would still be able to destroy something if it were capable of doing it and theres still the possibility that those asgard ships were lightly armoured and armed science ships not really designed for combat so theres still no reason to go around screaming plothole when there are still realistic and possible explanations.

[jhkplaya888]

no, they said that they once had the resources to build new ships so that means that they werent flying around for 10,000 years in that particular ship. secondly thats irrelevant, because you can upgrade something even though it looks as though its being held together by bubble gum and chicken wire because theres no rule that says upgrade has to mean getting something new, it can just means modifying their current tech to make it more powerful and better and i see no reason why while they were patching together their tech they couldnt have made some improvements.

and falling apart or not the fact remains that their tech was working so it dosent really matter how old it is because as long as its functional it would still be able to destroy something if it were capable of doing it and theres still the possibility that those asgard ships were lightly armoured and armed science ships not really designed for combat so theres still no reason to go around screaming plothole when there are still realistic and possible explanations.

did...you watch the same engine room as i did? i hardly would call that upgraded and functional...

[stargater1990]

did...you watch the same engine room as i did? i hardly would call that upgraded and functional...

did you see how the engine propelled them through hyperspace and to the planet with the attero device? because if you did, then it is functional and upgraded dosent have to mean new, it can mean modified to work better so again, the fact remains that no matter how old or cobbled together their tech looks if its sufficiently advanced and on a similar if not superior technological level to the asgards ship then as long as the weapons fire when you press the button, it dosent matter how old the tech is, just that it works so again thats in no way a plothole of anykind.

[jhkplaya888]

did you see how the engine propelled them through hyperspace and to the planet with the attero device? because if you did, then it is functional and upgraded dosent have to mean new, it can mean modified to work better so again, the fact remains that no matter how old or cobbled together their tech looks if its sufficiently advanced and on a similar if not superior technological level to the asgards ship then as long as the weapons fire when you press the button, it dosent matter how old the tech is, just that it works so again thats in no way a plothole of anykind.

They had alarms going off that they were ignoring...they had leaks, they had broken wires...a kid was their engineer T_T I hardly call that upgrading

[stargater1990]

They had alarms going off that they were ignoring...they had leaks, they had broken wires...a kid was their engineer T_T I hardly call that upgrading

oh my god. why cant you accept the fact that you can make something work better but still have it look trashy as hell and then break 2 minutes after youve used it. i mean you could assemble a car engine using parts from a junk yard and even though you might have to constantly be fixing something that breaks, the fact of the mattter is that if you put together some sort of turbo charged really really fast engine as long as the duck tape holds together you can still be better than someone who had a brand new engine as long as your able to get your old parts to work well enough for how long you need them to.

and when i was talking about upgrading, i wasnt just talking about their current tech i was talking about ther past tech and how over 10,000 years they would have upgraded their tech to be more powerful.

and we never saw the inside of their ship unless you count the brig but you really couldnt see anything except blackness and those green lasers so we have no idea what condition their ships are in. i mean for all we know their ships are in the same condition as the travelers tech but the thing is that we just dont know but nevertheless the fact reamins that there are a number of posibilities that could explain the travelers victory thats not just it was a plothole.

[Mister Oragahn]

I'd really like to know why anything used by the Lost Tribe is called Asgard.

• The Base: The Asgards operated from a small Lantean complex. Probably their last home, for all we know.
  
  
• The Suits: They had everything that gave clues about their Lantean origin, if only for the fact that they were tailored for humans, not greys. The style of their design was completely in line, from the colour patterns to the structural details, with the style of Auroras's hulls. Even the aspect of some of the details on the helmets looked much more like Lantean art than anything we've seen from the Asgards. And, of course, this has been finally proven by SGU.
  
  
• The Ships: If no one can see that they're a scaled up cousin of puddle jumpers, I really wonder what you need. The Asgards may have strapped some homemade weapons onto them, so that would explain why they had no squids. Or it could be that energy weapons came with the ship as well, but worked from civilian power core, not a military grade core. Plus it's also possible the Asgards couldn't replicate the squids and the ships had none left. Those ships could be anything, from the kind of ship that was destroyed by the Wraith in Before I Sleep (the size of those ships would fit with the casualties resulting from the ship's destruction), to the science vessel mentioned in Echoes. It would also explain why, as the Asgards here were less technologically advanced than their Ida counterparts, the shields of those ships sucked hard, just as the weapons: civilian retrofitted crafts. That's all.
  Oh, and the fact that they could move through Atlantis' shields, just like puddle jumpers, would be another convenient coincidence.