A Vs A

[Buba uognarf]

[QUOTE=lord groovy;8760311]I have switched side a lot since the beginning of this thread so I'm doing it again but only for the sake of argument.[QUOTE]

Get with the winning side. E.g. Ancients.

What I am wondering now is how did they extract that knowledge from the repository. So far, the reason why it is called a head sucker is because it is what it does. So wouldn't the Asgard have the same problem than O'Neill? They would hold longer because of their superior brain, but eventually the knowledge would take over, don't you think?
Maybe this is the reason why they couldn't only have small pieces of it.

Its possible it was stored in a computer. But we don't know. I'm sure there's other ways to access the knowledge besides getting head sucked.

Agreed. Except the fact that I would say "nanite technology". So far it is not cannon to say that MW replicators are the same that Asurans. It is similar to the difference between Human and Ancients, I think...

They are different. But we can safely say the Asurans would be beyond the Asgard's knowledge to beat. With access to true Ancient technology the Asuran could simply build and crew fleets of Ancient ships. They'd have a massive advantage in a war.

Ah, and the MW bugs were the equivalent of the Wraith for the Asgard. Huge numbers and a formidable ability to sap the strength of their enemy (except that they "feed" on their technology). And both races had the same strategy : develop advance technology to wipe them out once and for all. Unfortunately, it ended the same way : a devastating siege.
Note: In Before I sleep, the HighCouncil of the Ancient should have asked Weir a stupid idea... It was worth the try...

Indeed. The MW reps were essentially unbeatable but due to their nature could be affected as a collective. The Wraith were powerful but not unbeatable, however they lacked a 'take them all out at once' solution.

I know that the Ancients were extraordinary but their only feat was that they had the blueprints of the Replicators (it would have been better if they had those of the Wraith...).

Sorry I'm not sure what you mean by only feat?

It is the way you see thing and it may be right. But you should also consider a situation similar to the one in Middle East : terrorrist attacks from Gaza are answered by severe retribution by Israel.

IMHO, the Asgard were pissed by the fact that the Supreme Commander of the fleet (travelling in an outdated ship?) was attacked and possibly killed, so they sent what was available to quell the ambition of Anubis. It would have been cool to see one O'Neill come and smash to pieces Anubis' Ha'tak (on which they had no information whatsoever).

But think about the consequences : the treaty would have been broken and the Asgard would have had to commit forces to protect the planets in it while maybe fighting against the System Lords (it depends on their assessment of the situation and the chances of getting rid of the nice little grey aliens). Those 3 O'Neills where probably the best they could afford at that time. I personally think that they only wanted to frighten Anubis and that they did well.

To conclude, the Asgard were never shown at their peak. Neither were the Ancients. Odds still in favor of the latter...

The treaty was already broken. They should have attacked Anubis and destroyed him. The system lords would have seen the Asgard are still able to and willing to enforce the treaty and Anubis would have been dealt a deadly blow. I can only think of one reason which makes sense, the Asgard were wary of Anubis's new technology. Anubis destroyed an Asgard ship, violated the treaty and tortured Thor. Earlier in the episode the Asgard opened fire in a 2 on 1 situation when the Goa'uld had simply been sitting in orbit. If the Asgard were prepared to fight when the Goa'uld were simply in violation of the treaty it doesn't make sense they wouldn't retaliate when they committed an act of war.

[Gate-builder]

and as for the ancients sending the Asuran satellites to the Asgard worlds NO just to power that thing you need a black hole or a large number of ZPM's i dont think the ancient was going to use that.

Why not? Power was not a problem for the Ancients, they could build as many ZPMs as they wanted.

can you please tell me when did we see a aurora ship with another weapon?? All i remember ever seeing was the drones

If you look carefully you can see gun turrets near the top of the ship, one of which is firing a yellow energy blast.

And for yall to think a aurora can take down a oneill i dont think so the aurora got beat by the wraith thats how the wraith was able to get 3 ZPM...

We all know that the Wraith vastly outnumbered the Ancients, so it wasn't exactly a fair fight. If it was, the Ancients would have beaten the Wraith in about a week. The barely flyable Orion took out a hive in about 10 seconds.
If an O'Neill was faced with a whole pile of hives like the Ancient ships were, it would get destroyed as well.

I would just like to add that in the episode when O'Neill built the replicator disruptor, Thor said that the Asgard had tried to build a weapon that would do the same thing, and had failed. O'Neill, using Ancient knowledge, was able to design a working version in a matter of seconds.

Also in this episode, as others have stated, Thor said that the Asgard had extracted a small part of the Repository of Knowledge. From that small part they had been able to study, they had barely scratched the surface, but it had already taught them much.

[lord groovy]

I know that the Ancients were extraordinary but their only feat was that they had the blueprints of the Replicators.

What I meant is that it is the knowledge of Nanite technology that make the ARG riffle possible. Except that, the Ancient have not shown a particular superiority against the Asurans.

They nearly vitrified the surface of Asuras and yet Oberoth survived... And not even talking about their programming that the Wraith and McKay managed to tweak twice and the fact that ARG became useless after some time.

I'd just want to say that against the Replicators or the Asurans they would have been able to win. Same with the Asgards...

I think I finally made my choice : in a match between Ancients and Asgards I bet on the victory of the Replicators.

The treaty was already broken. They should have attacked Anubis and destroyed him. The system lords would have seen the Asgard are still able to and willing to enforce the treaty and Anubis would have been dealt a deadly blow. I can only think of one reason which makes sense, the Asgard were wary of Anubis's new technology. Anubis destroyed an Asgard ship, violated the treaty and tortured Thor. Earlier in the episode the Asgard opened fire in a 2 on 1 situation when the Goa'uld had simply been sitting in orbit. If the Asgard were prepared to fight when the Goa'uld were simply in violation of the treaty it doesn't make sense they wouldn't retaliate when they committed an act of war.

In normal life, yes! but in Gate verse, the most advanced races would never defeat the less ones. Unless if they are going to die by our hand (Replicators vs Goa'uld)

[thekillman]

people seem to take thor literally when he said they extracted parts of a repository, and they learned much, and they think it means all asgard development is taken from the ancients, and thus ancients are almighty. yes, id say that too, if i didnt known the context. because a repository does contain a ton of knowledge, yes. but what knowledge? its certainly no CC, with properly arranged knowledge, search functions, and a matter converter allowing you to make stuff with simple instructions or a click of a button. its meant to be uploaded in your mind. there doesnt have to be logic behind it, and doesnt have to be arranged, seeing as your mind has to store it. your mind arranges it, places it, tags it, uses it. besides, ALL knowledge of even us, would be vast, if you jammed it into a single super DVD. let alone, one of the four great races!. 50 million years of living in the MW, their life before, thousands of years of research, millions of history, research behind technology, prototypes, etc. all predecessors of drones, PD sats, aurora's, atlantis, and jumpers, and god knows what else. what they did in over 50 million years. that knowledge is so terribly much, even a portion of it is too much to understand in a lifetime. the CC is arranged, user friendly. but know, that even a portion of it would still contain vast knowledge, data, and god knows what else.

learning much, is also useless without context. i can learn much in life, much from other people, etc etc etc etc. if thor had said "years ago, we extracted a portion of a repository, and it heavily boosted our technology, and we barely scratched the surface", then there's nothing to argue about. however, he was vague, thus the argument is useless. asgard clone, thus the asgard researching cloning has been doing so since he first cloned. thus, he doesnt have to teach someone else, to continue when he passes away, and the other doesnt have to get up to speed, and go through the other's research. if we had nobel, einstein, newton, and all those other guys, living for a thousand years, and continuing their research, lifetime after lifetime, then we wouldve gotten far. very very far.

[lord groovy]

people seem to take thor literally when he said they extracted parts of a repository, and they learned much, and they think it means all asgard development is taken from the ancients, and thus ancients are almighty. yes, id say that too, if i didnt known the context. because a repository does contain a ton of knowledge, yes. but what knowledge? its certainly no CC, with properly arranged knowledge, search functions, and a matter converter allowing you to make stuff with simple instructions or a click of a button. its meant to be uploaded in your mind. there doesnt have to be logic behind it, and doesnt have to be arranged, seeing as your mind has to store it. your mind arranges it, places it, tags it, uses it. besides, ALL knowledge of even us, would be vast, if you jammed it into a single super DVD. let alone, one of the four great races!. 50 million years of living in the MW, their life before, thousands of years of research, millions of history, research behind technology, prototypes, etc. all predecessors of drones, PD sats, aurora's, atlantis, and jumpers, and god knows what else. what they did in over 50 million years. that knowledge is so terribly much, even a portion of it is too much to understand in a lifetime. the CC is arranged, user friendly. but know, that even a portion of it would still contain vast knowledge, data, and god knows what else.

learning much, is also useless without context. i can learn much in life, much from other people, etc etc etc etc. if thor had said "years ago, we extracted a portion of a repository, and it heavily boosted our technology, and we barely scratched the surface", then there's nothing to argue about. however, he was vague, thus the argument is useless. asgard clone, thus the asgard researching cloning has been doing so since he first cloned. thus, he doesnt have to teach someone else, to continue when he passes away, and the other doesnt have to get up to speed, and go through the other's research. if we had nobel, einstein, newton, and all those other guys, living for a thousand years, and continuing their research, lifetime after lifetime, then we wouldve gotten far. very very far.

It seems to me that we've already had that same discussion you and me on another thread a long time ago. And well, until now there are still people taking thor's words literally. Maybe we should give up, don't you think?

[thekillman]

people shoulnt take it too serious. its too vague. i mean, ofcourse the asgard couldve researched ancient, and other race's tech's. but according to aurora, the ancients did the same. as to "noone advanced being around" , 4 great races, anyone? same, with travellers, and genii. both were advanced. they wouldve escaped the wraith somewhere just after the defeat of the ancients, or better, even before it, when the ancient empire was crumbling. why?, well after that, the wraith had free reign, so any race advanced wouldve been wiped out by then.

problem is, the AVSA battle is difficult. if we use both races' latest tech, then dont you think the asgard would win easily, having oneills, with beam weapons, taking out aurora's pretty easily. besides, their shields are drone proof. seeing as our shields=asgard shields=drone proof[or our ships wouldve been long destroyed by asurans]

i dont believe anymore that the ancients reign supreme. asgard have shown to develop, adapt, and produce technology fast, very fast. for a race that advanced, ancients still use shields, energy weapons, hyperdrives, and more basic and ubiquisious technologies.
didnt they ever invent something never done before? something besides these basic technologies, though they are quite strong?

[Guest750]

No-one would win, they're both dead.

[Buba uognarf]

people seem to take thor literally when he said they extracted parts of a repository, and they learned much, and they think it means all asgard development is taken from the ancients, and thus ancients are almighty. yes, id say that too, if i didnt known the context. because a repository does contain a ton of knowledge, yes. but what knowledge? its certainly no CC, with properly arranged knowledge, search functions, and a matter converter allowing you to make stuff with simple instructions or a click of a button. its meant to be uploaded in your mind. there doesnt have to be logic behind it, and doesnt have to be arranged, seeing as your mind has to store it. your mind arranges it, places it, tags it, uses it. besides, ALL knowledge of even us, would be vast, if you jammed it into a single super DVD. let alone, one of the four great races!. 50 million years of living in the MW, their life before, thousands of years of research, millions of history, research behind technology, prototypes, etc. all predecessors of drones, PD sats, aurora's, atlantis, and jumpers, and god knows what else. what they did in over 50 million years. that knowledge is so terribly much, even a portion of it is too much to understand in a lifetime. the CC is arranged, user friendly. but know, that even a portion of it would still contain vast knowledge, data, and god knows what else.

learning much, is also useless without context. i can learn much in life, much from other people, etc etc etc etc. if thor had said "years ago, we extracted a portion of a repository, and it heavily boosted our technology, and we barely scratched the surface", then there's nothing to argue about. however, he was vague, thus the argument is useless. asgard clone, thus the asgard researching cloning has been doing so since he first cloned. thus, he doesnt have to teach someone else, to continue when he passes away, and the other doesnt have to get up to speed, and go through the other's research. if we had nobel, einstein, newton, and all those other guys, living for a thousand years, and continuing their research, lifetime after lifetime, then we wouldve gotten far. very very far.

It could just have easily meant that the Asgard were partly helped to get where they are by the Ancient database. All we know for sure is that the Asgard did learn a lot from it. Either through knowledge of the universe or technology.

You always bang on about the CC, give it a rest. Oneill was able to use the knowledge he had after getting head sucked. Its also not meant to viewed like a computer, it was designed for Ancients. The fact that an Ancient should be able to handle that vast amount of knowledge shows how smart they were.

The Ancients could own the Asgard full stop. You make an Oneill with beam weapons, i'll strap a ZPM into a flying Antarctic weapons platform and take out an entire fleet of Oneills at once. There's also the fact that the Ancients extra technology is better so they could build all manner of gadets to destroy the Asgard with.

Didn't they ever invent something never been done before? Did it occur to you that the Ancients were around first and invented those technologies first? So actually it would be the Asgard not inventing anything new. Plus the Ancients did invent random technologies...like exploding tumors.

The Asgard have one thing going for them, the beam weapons. Which the Ancients could easily counter with their own or better application of their technology.

[thekillman]

ever heard of asgard beaming technology? TWO good things.


you keep going on with an arctic superweaponplatform with ZPM's and city shields. look, if we used both races knowledge to make the best of the best of the best of the best topnotch state of the state of the art superultraomega ship of death, then i dont have a clue who makes the best. why? most ubertech of the ancients is unique. asgard have large scale application of technologies. give both infinite resources. who wins? asgard, their matter converters keep spitting out ships at such a speed, the ancients, as far as we know, cant match

[Buba uognarf]

ever heard of asgard beaming technology? TWO good things.


you keep going on with an arctic superweaponplatform with ZPM's and city shields. look, if we used both races knowledge to make the best of the best of the best of the best topnotch state of the state of the art superultraomega ship of death, then i dont have a clue who makes the best. why? most ubertech of the ancients is unique. asgard have large scale application of technologies. give both infinite resources. who wins? asgard, their matter converters keep spitting out ships at such a speed, the ancients, as far as we know, cant match

WOW! Two things!

Clearly the Asgard don't spit out ships at massive speeds. The Ancients would only need a few ships like the ones a described to own the Asgard. The Asurans built ships fast, the ancients could use them as a work force. Problem solved.

[thekillman]

so what. if drones were that powerfull, why didnt they work gainst ori?

you are an ancient fan. i prefer asgard, as i dont believe anymore in the ancient dream.

asgard can make replis too. as to arrogance, the ancients do beat the asgard. your "ships" dont exist. but hey, asgard could create a death shpere, entire covered in beam weapons and stacked full with NIGs, and a single computercore to make stuff as needed, and a hyperdrive, and go own ancients

[Buba uognarf]

so what. if drones were that powerfull, why didnt they work gainst ori?

you are an ancient fan. i prefer asgard, as i dont believe anymore in the ancient dream.

asgard can make replis too. as to arrogance, the ancients do beat the asgard. your "ships" dont exist. but hey, asgard could create a death shpere, entire covered in beam weapons and stacked full with NIGs, and a single computercore to make stuff as needed, and a hyperdrive, and go own ancients

They did work against the Ori. They forced the Ori to retreat with likely limited drone supplies. Also if drones were not effective why is it that after that encounter the Ori attack with 5+ ships.

The Ancients could just destroy that with Atlantis. NIG's are mediocre power sources. It takes 4 to power a Beliskner and even then it can't stand up to a pair of ancient modded Ha'tak.

[thekillman]

atlantis isnt meant to be a warship. the superweapon barely bounced off ONE ship. after that, they just wanted to quickly defeat us with 5 ships, completely ensuring defeat.

NIGs are fine. if our superunderpowered warships can power those *******s, a NIG could power dozens

[s09119]

atlantis isnt meant to be a warship. the superweapon barely bounced off ONE ship. after that, they just wanted to quickly defeat us with 5 ships, completely ensuring defeat.

NIGs are fine. if our superunderpowered warships can power those *******s, a NIG could power dozens

But we can't take ha'tak. Before the Asgard beams, ha'tak would destroy 304s.

[Buba uognarf]

atlantis isnt meant to be a warship. the superweapon barely bounced off ONE ship. after that, they just wanted to quickly defeat us with 5 ships, completely ensuring defeat.

NIGs are fine. if our superunderpowered warships can power those *******s, a NIG could power dozens

Who says NIG's are that much more powerful? A ZPM could power thousands by your logic...

How do you know it barely bounced off one ship? Did you see it happen? No you didn't! Not being rude but please don't talk rubbish. Don't say "this happened!" when it clearly didn't. How quickly can an Ori ship fire? A few seconds? Thats how fast the Drones must have forced it to retreat. Otherwise it would have just targeted where it was coming from and blown it to pieces.

The Ancients could build a better 'death sphere'. Power it with ZPMs, give it 100,000 drones + their own better beam weapons. Asgard owned.