Deadalus vs Enterprise vs BSG

[a6346]

When we see the 23rd century defiant in the mirror universe it is largely immune to these weapons and able to destroy ships from that century with ease. That suggests a significant increase in weapons and shield power. Latter ships like the Enterprise D and especially E would be far far more powerful.

The Defiants newer than Enterprise D. But it has the same power output as a Galaxy-class ship and but is only about 1/15 the size so most of its power is directed straight into weapons, shields and engines so it can withstand a fair bit more punishment and can pull off some amazing things for it's size (The entire Cardasian fleet needing new pants when the Marquee captured it).

The Enterprise E is more maneuverable than the Deadalus and has much better firing arks. It could simply avoid its asgard beams and pound away with its own weapons, its also got a much better firing range than the Deadalus so it could stay out of range altogether.

The best thing to do would be to stay behind it and maybe let the computer handle to navigation so any quick moves the 304 tries it can quickly compensate and stay behind it. But the main problem is it's not just fighting 1 304 but all 3 of them (Phoenix doesn't seem ready yet). Enterprise-E can evade 1 but if Daed is distracting it whilst Oddysey goes in from behind its a well known fact starfleet ships are weaker from the rear, So as groups they stand a good chance. Against the Enterprise-D which is very slow they've got a good chance aslong as they stay out of the forward phasors firing solution and go for the deflector.

But remember Federation ships aren't built for battle just to be able to fight in them. If they were desgnigned by the Klingons thats a different story, But all you have to do is look at them and you can tell what to go for, ussualy the big glowing things (Warp naceules, Deflector). Take out the Deflector and it can't go to warp (Can't deflect any space objects) take out one of the nacelles and it will warp circles (Only 1 engine means when active it warps on the stop but in circles, In theory).

The best warships are Defiants and Prometheus class's from startrek.

[ykickamoocow]

The Defiants newer than Enterprise D. But it has the same power output as a Galaxy-class ship and but is only about 1/15 the size so most of its power is directed straight into weapons, shields and engines so it can withstand a fair bit more punishment in theory.

Actually he was talking about a different Defiant. He was talking about a Defiant which was around in the Original series era and not the Defiant in DS9.

[a6346]

Actually he was talking about a different Defiant. He was talking about a Defiant which was around in the Original series era and not the Defiant in DS9.

Ah ok I thought he was reffering to Nc-Defiant (Defiant) not the NX-Defiant (Constitution).

But that ship dismantled alternate NX-class ship in 2 or 3 Phasor shots which was impressive and destroyed the vastly superior Vulcan and Andorian warships with just a few torps. Very impressive and that wouldn't stand agains the type 11-13 phasors on the Enterprise-E.

[Buba uognarf]

Thanks.

No problem. I'll do my best to get them for you shortly.

Asgard beams would be overkill. Mere megaton nukes would suffice if Continuum was correct. So let's get that out.

Ok.

Well, Goa'uld are actually irrelevant to the thread.
But we can look at the Daedalus' railguns. I know some spoilers implied that they went through a refit for a bigger caliber around BAMSR. That said, we can still look at the figure given by Everett back then, while not forgetting that his numbers concerned shots in atmosphere, with all the implied drag, meaning that the initial exit velocity was higher.
I think I remember ten thousand rounds should represent something like a kiloton of total KE.

Its true the Goa'uld are irrelevant but they're useful for determining the strength of the Deadalus. I don't think rail guns would affect the Enterprise at all, wouldn't its deflector stop them? And even so a kiloton wouldn't cause too much damage.

Indeed, it doesn't. Yes, people suggest that Dakara was indeed shielded, twice actually. One orbital shield, to explain the massive flare from orbit, and one surrounding the temple, which would reconcile the beams' behaviour with what we previously saw about them against shields, being stopped for a bit of time before punching through.

Thats the only way I can think of to rationalize it.

I have seen high end calcs which argue for 100-150 MT for torps, maybe a bit more, based on Voyager's episode Rise.
But Rise may have established a minimum firepower, because it's possible that the torpedo was loaded with enough AM to blow the asteroid. Although I don't have the dialogue, so I cannot say if they planned to fire a torp near max firepower.

Well we know there are different types of Torpedoes and they have a variable yield. It stands to reason that in an era where the federation had been in a devastating war the torpedoes they used would be more powerful or at least of the highest yield they could achieve. Voyager wasn't a warship so I would assume that a ship which fought in a war and was the flagship of the federation would have weapons at least as powerful. If Voyager carried torpedoes with a yield of 100MT its logical the Enterprise had more powerful ones or if they are the most powerful the same 100MT torpedoes.

This isn't taking into account Quantum torpedoes which are said to be superior to Photons.

One useful yardstick I like to use is the Cardassian missile. We've seen that shield generators and warp engines don't take much place. One single small probe housing a Klingon-human female could also pack a shield and a warp 9 engine (maybe overloaded and short lived) by adding some little prop bits on the probe's hull.
Impulse engines don't require too much room either, nor phaser banks, and we've seen the interior of the missile not being enough to account for the whole thing's size seen from outside.
Basically, it leaves the AM tank and its 1 ton load, plus an equivalent load of matter and a system to mix them both properly.

The federation are more sophisticated than the Cardassians so they could probably squeeze more out of such a weapon. Obviously you can't get better than a 100% reaction but It depends on how much AM a torpedo can carry. Increasing the yield becomes a question of more AM and a better reaction. So how much AM could a torpedo carry? Several kilograms? 1.5Kg of matter and AM would produce 62 megatons I see no reason why it couldn't carry 5Kg or more.

They wouldn't have to, Seven and the Captain know their stuff well. They won't always say it's better than our stuff.
And we know nothing about the materials used by the aliens for their warhead. Truly powerful, no kidding, but there's no correlation between this weapon and UFP weapons at all.

They were able to repair the damaged weapon. I know there's no correlation but if the UFP is capable of low-mid megatons then surely if they saw a weapon with this much power there would have been a bit of a reaction.

This warhead I think was specifically used to destroy an Omega particle, or a bunch of them, but I don't think they knew that at this moment, though I'll have to check.
That said, the energy needed to destroy a small planet would imply that since torpedo was as powerful as the Cardassian missile.

It does imply starfleet can achieve a high level of destruction.

This is impressive, but please provide evidence that this is a standard level of firepower which can be easily replicated and wasn't made without the help of some other stuff.
I'm also puzzled about the utter lack of plasma. Cracking a moon or planet would require formidable energies which couldn't go unnoticed. There seems to be a small white puff somewhere in the middle, but it's very tame considering the size of the chunk flying out.

It was designed by the Xindi I think. The weapon itself was small, if a 22nd race can build something like this then a 24th century race should be achieve more than low megatons. Thats IMO anyway, I can't actually prove it lol.

And I checked. The Xindi DID have help from the sphere builders, who achieved very impressive stuff.

I believe it was Degra who designed the weapon.

To provide the beam. Nothing says the core ship could fire a beam.

Nothing says it couldn't. It looks like it focuses the beams of the other ships.

1. They provide the beam to channel the special mixture contained within the core ship. Otherwise there'd be no point doing the transformer thing.
2. Not with point 1. It would also imply ships having hundreds of gigatons of firepower, and I'm pretty sure Voyager didn't have to cope with that stuff when fighting against S8472.

1. Special mixture? Do you mean like a reactant? To me it looks like the central ship focuses the power of the other ships
2. Species 8472 were blowing Borg cubes apart pretty easily them having gigatons of firepower isn't farfetched. For your points to make sense the central ship would have to deliver something the other ships didn't have that reacted violently with matter instantly and caused substantial heating and cracking of the crust. We have no evidence to suggest this was the case.

Couldn't the beam simply tunnel through the crust and cause some kind of effect once in the mantle though techno-bable to cause the planets destruction?

At best, the beam could be responsible for drilling the crust and delivering the payload in the planet's mantle or core, but we know nothin about how the chain reaction generates energy. Since it's started by the beam, any interaction with the beam is under suspicion. The initial ejecta could easily a former localized and downplayed step, a sample of the final effect.

I see, yeah thats what I always thought. It could be, but then again its an energy beam so unless it reacts with matter in a violent way on contact I don't see how it could send ejecta into orbit without substantial force. The single 8472 ships failed to cause a reaction like this on the hulls of enemy ships so you'd have to show that central 8472 ship added something extra to the beam.

Nukes do it.

I was referring to energy weapons.

Several like two to be utterly finished. Phasers from slightly superior ships could be enough to destroy alien ships of that era, and such alien phasers never utterly kicked the NX-01.
We have several cases of such alien ships firing their phasers on the Enterprise and it still takes time to take down the NX-01, despite its primitive means of defense of that era.

A Klingon BOP was able to focus its forward shields and completely nullify the effect of the NX-01's torpedoes. If other ships of that era could be downed by 2 Photons then Enterprise would have little trouble when attacked.

Is there any way to quantify the defensive capabilities of the NX-01?

Photon torps, besides, will only get better in the amount of AM that can be crammed into the warheads and the reaction efficiency.

Thats true, but if 1.5kg of AM generates 62 megatons with a 100% reaction then judging by the size of torpedoes I see no reason why they wouldn't increase that substantially. Maybe not into the gigatons without some other sophisticated mechanism but certainly into the hundreds of megatons IMO. But I'm not sure on the space inside the warhead or the density of AM and how much space it would require.

It's not surprising the Defiant would laugh at it since these beam weapons were struggling to take down the NX. The better technology and eventually an increase of one order of magnitude or two in defenses and power would give the Defiant the ability of steamroll any foe of that era.

An order of magnitude would be in the hundreds of megatons though. At least for torpedoes, if phasers were much bellow torpedoes there would be no point in using them.

I don't know what you meant by far far more powerful, but I don't think it's sane enough to argue for gigaton stuff.

Even hundreds of megatons would be enough to seriously threaten the Deadalus when added to the Enterprises superior range and maneuverability.

True.
And has better missiles, which can actually deal their energies even when exploding on shields.
The Daedalus would have to fly close to the E-D and fire beams ahead of the E-D.
These Asgard beams are a joke.
A stupidly written and designed weapon by people who think that space is as small as a bathroom and ships are as fast as snails.

Good analogy lol. The Enterprise may lack the same raw power depending on what value we accept for torpedoes but its weapons are far more effective.

Yes as well.
The Daedalus is a very poor ship, a jack of all trades that actually traded too much and is not efficient at anything, safe eventually carrying F-302s. They have not even figured out to use proxy fuses on their nukes, in case as shield would be detected.

The only thing the Daedalus can do, and the E-D won't be able to do anything about it, is beam a nuke on the path of the E-D and let it go off, and repeat this as long as it's deemed necessary.
If it doesn't do this, it will be like a toothless sitting duck with possibly strong shields and that's all.

So we agree the Enterprise E is the most likely to emerge victorious?

[Mister Oragahn]

Its true the Goa'uld are irrelevant but they're useful for determining the strength of the Deadalus.

Amusingly, railguns fired en masse against Ha'tak shields were barely getting noticed by said shields. This, again, not fitting with Continuum.

See:

FORD: If you don't mind my asking, Colonel, deploy what exactly?

EVERETT: We brought along a few rail guns. They were originally slated for Prometheus to replace their current close-in armament for their next refit. They will deliver an impact velocity of mach-five at fifty miles; a standard magazine will hold ten thousand rounds.

Meaning each round is fired at an hypersonic speed.
Even at this distance of 50 miles, that's five times the speed of sound, 1701.5 m/s.
For a projectile massing 1 kg, that's a KE of 1.447 megajoules. Half for 0.5 kg projectiles. The smaller the projectiles, the better. That's for the magnetic field. The less momentum, the less friction as well. Now, a ship such as the Daedalus would have less issues providing power to heavy railguns than we do know, so they could afford using denser rounds.
It fits with the heavier Julie railgun capable of mach 8 and powered by a 32 megajoules unit, although it is not capable of rifle mode.
In episode The Game (SGA) the Daedalus' rail shots caused explosions which weren't too far from the explosions seen in Continuum, dealt by the Goa'uld.
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I don't think rail guns would affect the Enterprise at all, wouldn't its deflector stop them? And even so a kiloton wouldn't cause too much damage.

No, they won't. They're useless weapons against capital ships unless they're unshielded and have weakspots like unarmoured sections or open Dart bays. >_>

Well we know there are different types of Torpedoes and they have a variable yield. It stands to reason that in an era where the federation had been in a devastating war the torpedoes they used would be more powerful or at least of the highest yield they could achieve. Voyager wasn't a warship so I would assume that a ship which fought in a war and was the flagship of the federation would have weapons at least as powerful. If Voyager carried torpedoes with a yield of 100MT its logical the Enterprise had more powerful ones or if they are the most powerful the same 100MT torpedoes.

It depends on the design. Voyager could actually be equipped with better torpedoes. Only less of them. It can go both ways.
They had class 6 torps, while DS9 only used class 4. Class 7 existed, and Voyager at some point in Scorpion used class 10.

This isn't taking into account Quantum torpedoes which are said to be superior to Photons.

For the Sovereign-class? That ship is a huge motha****a.

The federation are more sophisticated than the Cardassians so they could probably squeeze more out of such a weapon.

That single simplified ship-missile was a match for the Voyager. It was obviously not made of that much suckage.

Obviously you can't get better than a 100% reaction but It depends on how much AM a torpedo can carry. Increasing the yield becomes a question of more AM and a better reaction. So how much AM could a torpedo carry? Several kilograms? 1.5Kg of matter and AM would produce 62 megatons I see no reason why it couldn't carry 5Kg or more.

Well, some bits from memory alpha say this:

When fired by a Galaxy-class starship without shields at a target in close range, a single photon detonation had a high probably of destroying the firing ship as well. In 2365, the unshielded USS Lantree was destroyed with a single photon torpedo hit. The USS Enterprise-D stayed at a distance of forty kilometers. (TNG: "Q Who", "Unnatural Selection")

In 2368 photon torpedo warhead yields had at least 16 preset levels. A large explosion was created with five torpedoes set to level 16. (TNG: "New Ground")

Reading the story of New Ground, shields were down to 12%, with small gaps in the aft deflectors. Several sections of the E-D were evacuated to prevent casualties due to ion radiations.
The solition wave was closing in fast, and five torps set to level 16 (max) were fired when the wave was one kilometer away.
Torps weren't focused, the explosion disrupted the wave.

They were able to repair the damaged weapon. I know there's no correlation but if the UFP is capable of low-mid megatons then surely if they saw a weapon with this much power there would have been a bit of a reaction.

It doesn't matter really, because the alien missiles points to e3-e4 gigatons. The UFP doesn't have that kind of firepower.

1. Special mixture? Do you mean like a reactant? To me it looks like the central ship focuses the power of the other ships.
2. Species 8472 were blowing Borg cubes apart pretty easily them having gigatons of firepower isn't farfetched. For your points to make sense the central ship would have to deliver something the other ships didn't have that reacted violently with matter instantly and caused substantial heating and cracking of the crust. We have no evidence to suggest this was the case.

1. That core ship's role could be anything.
2. Bioships destroy cubes by hitting a central point on hulls, and we've seen Cubes take two hits sometimes to go down. It's easily plausible that bioship beams can deal enough energy at a central point that pierce Borg defenses without having to deplete the entirety of Borg defense systems.
Simply put, the only way for the Federation to damage cubes is, with their low firepower, to drain a Cube's whole defenses over time, destroying every possible shield generator, draining every possible shield patch, and destroying every possible hull sector regeneration system.
A weapon that wouldn't leave enough time for Borg defenses to spread the damage, to rebuild the hull and transfer power to some specific shield generators wouldn't even need to match the total firepower UFP ships needed to ditch over time to significantly damage a Cube.

Couldn't the beam simply tunnel through the crust and cause some kind of effect once in the mantle though techno-bable to cause the planets destruction?

Just as much as the beam could make a localized exotic reaction that cracks the planet and leave the mantle unprotected.

I see, yeah thats what I always thought. It could be, but then again its an energy beam so unless it reacts with matter in a violent way on contact I don't see how it could send ejecta into orbit without substantial force. The single 8472 ships failed to cause a reaction like this on the hulls of enemy ships so you'd have to show that central 8472 ship added something extra to the beam.

Why? When I say only the core ship had this ability to trigger such a chain reaction, mixed to the other ship's beams, that's for a reason.

A Klingon BOP was able to focus its forward shields and completely nullify the effect of the NX-01's torpedoes.

While leaving the BOP's stern lightly defended. Plus torps weren't focused, so that's half the yield that goes nowhere.

If other ships of that era could be downed by 2 Photons then Enterprise would have little trouble when attacked.

But the N-X can survive multiple phaser strikes from alien ships of that era.

Is there any way to quantify the defensive capabilities of the NX-01?

Besides eventual upgrades in shielding, they had that polarized field first, and there's an episode with space mines to look at.

Thats true, but if 1.5kg of AM generates 62 megatons with a 100% reaction then judging by the size of torpedoes I see no reason why they wouldn't increase that substantially. Maybe not into the gigatons without some other sophisticated mechanism but certainly into the hundreds of megatons IMO. But I'm not sure on the space inside the warhead or the density of AM and how much space it would require.

Torpedo sizes haven't changed much since ENT. Schematics also show lots of space being unused.

An order of magnitude would be in the hundreds of megatons though. At least for torpedoes, if phasers were much bellow torpedoes there would be no point in using them.

It could merely be a question that sometimes, they don't have much choice. Phasers are tightly focused and can be fired as long as ships have AM. Besides, they're better weapons at close ranges, and we see that at longer ranges, ships use torps, so obviously phasers/disruptors are weaker.

Even hundreds of megatons would be enough to seriously threaten the Deadalus when added to the Enterprises superior range and maneuverability.

Depends on the calc but for some of them, this is correct.

So we agree the Enterprise E is the most likely to emerge victorious?

If her weapons can take down the Daedalus' shields before depleting the entire stock of torps, and before the Daedalus crew comes with the idea of beaming nukes close to the E-D, yes.
That said, they know the beaming trick by name now, and they won't have to think about it. If they see that their nukes are incapable of reaching the enemy ship, either because they're shot down or too slow, it will be very similar to the Wraith case.

This could actually go very quickly.

Both crews won't fire all they have at first, they'll probe their respective targets.

[a6346]

^ I agree with pretty much everything up there good stuff.


And Galaxy class's in peace time only carry 250 Photon Torpedoes but I think there maximum capacity for battle is somewere near 1000.

Phasors are good for when the Torpedoes either aren't versatile or are being used sparingly look at Nemesis Enterprise was firing Quatoms and Photons pretty much non stop ran out near the end and only had Phasors, They have there place but unfortunatly they can't be used in warp only torps can.

If the UFP were told that Enterprise would fight the 304's they would strip the thing and turn it into a warship pretty quickly.

Does the Enterprise have Data? He died and they lost a good tactical advantage when he died. And what about Riker and Troi they also increase it's combat effectiveness, I mean an empath is a brilliant asset especialy in this battle.

[Buba uognarf]

Amusingly, railguns fired en masse against Ha'tak shields were barely getting noticed by said shields. This, again, not fitting with Continuum.

The fact rail guns damaged the Ha'tak at all demonstrates that Ha'tak shields can't be that powerful.

See:



Meaning each round is fired at an hypersonic speed.
Even at this distance of 50 miles, that's five times the speed of sound, 1701.5 m/s.
For a projectile massing 1 kg, that's a KE of 1.447 megajoules. Half for 0.5 kg projectiles. The smaller the projectiles, the better. That's for the magnetic field. The less momentum, the less friction as well. Now, a ship such as the Daedalus would have less issues providing power to heavy railguns than we do know, so they could afford using denser rounds.
It fits with the heavier Julie railgun capable of mach 8 and powered by a 32 megajoules unit, although it is not capable of rifle mode.
In episode The Game (SGA) the Daedalus' rail shots caused explosions which weren't too far from the explosions seen in Continuum, dealt by the Goa'uld.
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I'm not sure what your point is? Is it to reinforce the stupidity of Continuum? Because if it is there's no need I fully understand how stupid it was.

No, they won't. They're useless weapons against capital ships unless they're unshielded and have weakspots like unarmoured sections or open Dart bays. >_>

Agreed.

It depends on the design. Voyager could actually be equipped with better torpedoes. Only less of them. It can go both ways.
They had class 6 torps, while DS9 only used class 4. Class 7 existed, and Voyager at some point in Scorpion used class 10.

That depends on which Enterprise. I would think the Enterprise E would have better torpedoes than Voyager while the opposite may be true in the case of the E-D as its an older design. Although during the dominion wars they'd likely be equipped with the best Starfleet had.

For the Sovereign-class? That ship is a huge motha****a.

Yeah. I believe the galaxy class is supposed to be bigger in terms of volume. Too be clear are we talking about the E-D or the E-E?

That single simplified ship-missile was a match for the Voyager. It was obviously not made of that much suckage.

Never said it was. Actually to be fair the cardassians did come up with some pretty good stuff like those super defense satellites. But Starfleet is the more advanced of the 2.

Well, some bits from memory alpha say this:





Reading the story of New Ground, shields were down to 12%, with small gaps in the aft deflectors. Several sections of the E-D were evacuated to prevent casualties due to ion radiations.
The solition wave was closing in fast, and five torps set to level 16 (max) were fired when the wave was one kilometer away.
Torps weren't focused, the explosion disrupted the wave.

The E-D shields must be good then...

It doesn't matter really, because the alien missiles points to e3-e4 gigatons. The UFP doesn't have that kind of firepower.

Maybe not with photon torpedoes. Not enough space for AM, but we have references to modified torpedoes apparently blowing up small planets.

1. That core ship's role could be anything.
2. Bioships destroy cubes by hitting a central point on hulls, and we've seen Cubes take two hits sometimes to go down. It's easily plausible that bioship beams can deal enough energy at a central point that pierce Borg defenses without having to deplete the entirety of Borg defense systems.
Simply put, the only way for the Federation to damage cubes is, with their low firepower, to drain a Cube's whole defenses over time, destroying every possible shield generator, draining every possible shield patch, and destroying every possible hull sector regeneration system.
A weapon that wouldn't leave enough time for Borg defenses to spread the damage, to rebuild the hull and transfer power to some specific shield generators wouldn't even need to match the total firepower UFP ships needed to ditch over time to significantly damage a Cube.

We've also seen Cubes take hits and look good enough to take several more. I wouldn't say Federation firepower is low. It is mostly likely the case that the bio ship weapon is powerful enough to cause significant damage in a single shot breaching defenses and is thus able to counter the cubes redundancies. The weapon would still have to carry a lot of firepower to do so.

There could be numerous reasons why the E-D was able to deal so much damage to the cube in the first contact. Maybe its defenses were lowered they seem to let people beam on and off their ships its not too much of a stretch to believe they didn't consider the E-D a threat. Also remember photon torpedoes did no damage at all even when they were fired for the first time and Photon torpedoes are the more powerful weapon.

Just as much as the beam could make a localized exotic reaction that cracks the planet and leave the mantle unprotected.

I still fail to see how an energy beam could be so tuned as to make a violent reaction with rock without raw power. Especially seeing as it looked like a focused version of the standard weapon.

Why? When I say only the core ship had this ability to trigger such a chain reaction, mixed to the other ship's beams, that's for a reason.

We have no reason to believe the core ship mixed anything to the other ships beams. More likely it focused the energy from the other ships.

While leaving the BOP's stern lightly defended. Plus torps weren't focused, so that's half the yield that goes nowhere.

They were still able to ignore 10+ megatons. It would make sense for phasers on later ships to be much more powerful to be able to breach the shields of races in the 24th century.

But the N-X can survive multiple phaser strikes from alien ships of that era.

All the more reason for it to be a nightmare for other races if a couple of torpedoes can finish them.

Besides eventual upgrades in shielding, they had that polarized field first, and there's an episode with space mines to look at.

Well an overload in the phasers blew up a mountain apparently the size of mount Rushmore I believe. Then there's 22nd ships with focused shields being immune to 10's of megatons. I think its fair to assume modern phasers are more powerful than that as they breach much stronger shielding.

Torpedo sizes haven't changed much since ENT. Schematics also show lots of space being unused.

So they could theoretically up the yield significantly.

It could merely be a question that sometimes, they don't have much choice. Phasers are tightly focused and can be fired as long as ships have AM. Besides, they're better weapons at close ranges, and we see that at longer ranges, ships use torps, so obviously phasers/disruptors are weaker.

We've seen phasers have a significant affect on enemy ships. Its unlikely they're even an order of magnitude bellow torpedoes. Also when we consider the Type XII phasers and Type X phasers they must have some of the percentage of Torpedoes to even include them.

Depends on the calc but for some of them, this is correct.

It also depends on the strength of the Deadalus' shield.

If her weapons can take down the Daedalus' shields before depleting the entire stock of torps, and before the Daedalus crew comes with the idea of beaming nukes close to the E-D, yes.
That said, they know the beaming trick by name now, and they won't have to think about it. If they see that their nukes are incapable of reaching the enemy ship, either because they're shot down or too slow, it will be very similar to the Wraith case.

This could actually go very quickly.

Both crews won't fire all they have at first, they'll probe their respective targets.

I doubt the E-D let alone the E-E would have to empty its torpedo stocks on the Deadalus. Thats also assuming beaming nukes near them even works, the Enterprise will be moving by the time the nuke rematerializes it could be miles way and the nuke will blow most of its energy into space.

[LTCOLHOMER]

holy crap im gone for a day jeez

ok im gona agree with buba continuum is rubbish but deadalus still has beams
here is what i got to say
a grand battle for the universe between all the enterprises and the entire stargate fleet blowup and under construction with bsg and bsp with civie fleet (for added explosions and overall coolness) would be a battle like none other.

bsg and bsp would be quickly destroyed while the civie fleet is a mine field of ships that the USAF fleet and Federation Fleet would have to avoid.

next the USAF fleet would deploy all f302s which would hide behind civie ships and ambush the youngest enterprise which they would probably be able to destroy archer.

the Gate fleet may lack manuverabilty which they make up for with numbers all of the enterprises leading up to picard would be quickly destroyed with say the loss of prommie and a serious drop in overall shield strenghth the enterprise d would probably blow up the koralev leaving the oddy sieriously damaged. the enterprise e quickly destroys oddy while its shields are massivly bombarded by missles and beams from the deady, appolo, pheonix. it would probably take out another ship before it was destroyed.
the thing is the USAF fleet is made up of military personel who all understand the conditions they live in cuz they sighned up the USAF fleet is to me way more competent with dealing with emergenyis cuz most of them are soldiers

[LTCOLHOMER]

we could beam shaped nukes into the flight trajectory of them just like shaped charges wich would force most of the blast at the shield

to me the deady and all have way more possibilities of winning then the ente

[a6346]

The Federation are very adept at fleet warfare, Your underestimating them. I hope you like this.

Spoiler:

The Federation realises that it is going into a battle with Enterprises from the past. The fleet reundavues at Earth station for a quick refit and battle strategy, At Earth Enterprises-E, D, C receive upgrades to there torpedo launchers making them capable of launching Tri-cobolt warheads. All unnecasery personal are evacuated and the fleet prepares to move out.

The Federation fleet arrives at the coordinates of the universal tear in subspace. They split the fleet up into 2 team Archers,A,D stay infront of the rift and C, B, E head away deeper into the system to take cover behind a gas giant.

The rift begins to open as 5 ships appear out of the rift, The Enterprise-D fires a warning shot past the lead ships port hanger. The 304's and 303 takes this as an agressive act and returns fire with there railguns, But as the slugs are about to hit the ships they are diverted away. D detects a build up of energy in the front of the ships, Knowing that these will be weapons the Enterprises split up as the beams fire they narrowly miss Enterprise A and Archer. The beams manage to inderectly hit D and the ships sublight goes offline. The D keeps firing at the lightly shielded vessel it's shields start to fluctuate after several well placed Phasor hits A detects it's shields weakening and fires Photon torps bringing the shields down.

The 304's detect that Prom is loosing and divert the attention of the A, D whilst Archer can't penetrate the hull with his Phasors transports a decideds to transport a team of MACO's. Inside the Prom the MACO team begins making it's way to the hyperdrive metting light resistance the team makes it to the core and sticks charges on the hyperdrive consoles and the veiwing window. The team fights it's way back to the evac point but Enterprise's can't get a lock on them Malcolm read detonates them anyway with himself and the rest of the team inside. The Prometheus vapourises as the explosives overload the Nquahdah in the hyperdrive.

The 304's launch there 302's to help them against Archer they begin to chase the ship and use there missles to disable the sublight engines Archer uses his Phase cannons against the 302's and destroy's several of them, the 302's vere off as the Apollo comes in and fires it's beams cutting right through Archer's, The ship begins to buckle and escape pods begin to launch with the crew. A detects Archer's evacuating and drops shields to beam them up, Detecting the drop in the shields Phoenix fires 2 nukes into the side of A destroying 1 of it's warp engines and it's rear Phasor arrays. A fires 20 Photon torps at at Apollo heavily damaging the shields and disabling it's sublight. D loads 2 of it's Tri-cobolt devices and fires them at Apollo detenating on contact and causing major fractures along it's hull. Nearly destroyed Apollo calls for help and Oddysey and Daedalus's combined strength fire there beams at D Bringing down it's shields they fire 6 nukes at D as the missles approach D it's rear Phasors manage to destroy 1 of the missles, The rest of the Enterprises arrive in time to shoot down the rest, Enterprise C under the cover of A, B and E tractors D out of the battle.

The Oddysey decides to destroy D as it is heavily damaged already and go after it leaving Phoenix and Daedalus to fight A, B, E. The Oddysey chaces D and C but can't catch them as it's sublight is to slow, But it continues to follow them.

Back at the main battle A, B and E faces Daedalus, Phoenix and the stricken Apollo which is still firing even though it is having no effect and can't maneuvor. A, B and E keep behind the Phoenix and Daedalus as they chaice them through the solar system. The Enterpises get close behind the 304's and Phoenix barrel roles behind the ships and opens fire with it's beams cutting through A's shields and cutting off all power sending it out of the fight. E vere's off to attack Phoenix whilst B fires on the Daedalus, After trying every evasive move he can think of Caldwell orders the beaming of all remaining nukes into the path of B. Whilst they prepare E chaces Phoenix away from A but Phoenix starts distracting E from A and draws them to far away.

The fleet of remaining 302's now go after the A and without power can't defend against them and has no shields. The 302's go for a section joining the saucer section and the stardrive section cutting it in half and the engine overloads destroying the A and the 302's in a quick warp core breach leaving no survivors.

Back at the fight between Oddysey and D, C the C begins to slow down as it's engines overheat from the speed and the weight of D, C redirects power from shields to engines hopeing to get enough speed out of them to stay ahead. As they approach a gas giant the radiation blocks the sensors of Oddysey. It manages to track the C and fire's beams and hits it with perfect precision destroying it. Oddysey starts to track for the D and detects a large mass in the upper atmosphere of the giant. It fires it's weapons and the ship explodes Oddysey moves in to confirm the kills and is satisfied as it see the crumbled Saucer of the D. It heads beack to the main battle.

E is using it's overwhelming fire power on the Daedalus and brings it's shields to the verge of failiure. In a risky move as they only have low shields Caldwell deploys the nuclear bombs and detonates on E's shields causing little effect, But the explosions bring Daedalus's shields to the brink of faliure. E uses it's forward Phasor to bring down it's shields and fire 4 Tri-Cobolt devices into the rear of Daedalus destroying it.

Oddysey rejoins the battle and goes after E which is now helping B take down the Phoenix, Oddysey fires beams and gets a hit on E's shields. E now changes its priority to Oddysey and the 2 start brawling. The battle between B and Phoenix now come as the 2 ships begin to take each others shields down. Phoenix flies right in front of the stricken Apollo but B isn't quick enough to evade the Apollo's beams which now disable B. B contacts E and request help in defending itself the E eventhough it is busy with Oddysey swoops in firing 2 more Tri-cobalt devices into Apollo finishing it in a cloud of vapour.

Phoenix now goes after B hoping to finish it as revenge for the Apollo, B fires its last 5 Photon torps at Phoenix which shoot them down with it's railguns. Phoenix fires it's beams and scrapes the stardrive section causing a slow warpcore breach. As the shields of the Phoenix fluctuate the B activates it's tractor beam pulling Phoenix closer to it. E uses its phasors to knock out Phoenix's last shields and waits for the warp breach, Which is sped up as the Phoenix now at close range starts getting hits on B. The warp core detonates destroying both ships.

Now were left with Oddysey and E fighting it out, The two spend a while pounding each other. E detects that a certain radiation that they can emmit from there deflectors could disable the beams and modifies and fires it. Oddysey's beams switch off much to the amazement of the crew. But the radiation had an unexected side effect on the Universal rift and has now opened up to another universe. Oddysey and E detect a new wave of ships coming through but keep battaling each other. A new fleet of over 100 ships appears at the rift but imediatly most of the ships disapear leaving the 2 biggest ones standing there. Galactica and Pegasus thinking that they are a threat and that maybe the survivor could help them decide to take defensive positions and wait for the winner. But there launch of Vipers has caused an alarm amongst the E and Oddysey, And they switch fire to disable the ships.

The Galactica and Pegasus target the slower ship the Oddysey an begin to return fire. Sensing defeat is near Oddysey calls in it's last option and another ship comes out of the rift. The newly arrived 304 goes after the Galactica and Pegasus whilst the Oddysey continues brawling with E. Galactica starts taking heavy damage as the Korelev starts targeting it's gashes along the hull Pegasus tries to keep Korelev off it's back but doesn't have the firepower. After making a sizeable gap in Galactica's armour it fires 2nukes into the hole destroying it from the inside.

Both Oddysey and E have started warring each other out and E now out of Quantam and Photons keeps firing concentrated bursts of Oddysey with little effect. But Oddysey without beams is having a hard time getting through E's shields with the rails that aren't hitting it and the nukes that aren't doing much against E's shields. E loads it's last 2 Tri-cobalt devices hoping to get a killing blow. It fires the Tri-cobalt weapons hitting Oddysey taking out it's engines railguns and and bringing it's shields low.

Korelev is having problems getting it's nukes into Pegasus as they are constantly shot down by flack. It decides to help Oddysey as the Pegasus's weapons aren't doing anything against it's shields and it's needed elseware. E is now out numbered as Korelev is at close range and hitting with railguns. E's shields start to breach but just before it's shields come down the Repaired stardrive section of the D (Which jetisoned it's saucer section and remotly guided it into the path of the Oddysey as a ruse) opens fire on Oddysey with it's Photons brininging it's shields down. E and D now begin firing Phasors at Oddysey doing minimal damage to the hull and decide to destroy Korelev.

Korelev which is still pre-unending is knocked out quickly, without its new shields and weapons it is no match for the D and E after D uses it's last torps on korelev it begins to buckle turns towards D and heads at full sublight. D loads it's 2 last Tri-cobalt devices and fires them at the extremly close Korelev destroying it but also bringing down D's shields.

E now limited in it's armaments stays at long range from Oddysey to avoid it's rails and any other surprises it's got. But Pegasus isn't scared of Oddysey and gets it's forward battery into range and opens up breaking Oddysey in half and destroying what is left of the Tauri fleet. Now the E which only has its forward phasor left and very little shields goes after Pegasus. The Pegasus uses all it's nukes and it's entire arsenal to bring the E's shields down but they are unable to stop E's phasors which begin carving it up, As E's hull starts to take damage from the flack which it has to go through to get to Pegasus, It fires it's foward phasor array hitting it's fuel tanks causing catastrophic series of internal explosions on Pegasus destroying it from the inside.

The stricken E now waits for a Federation tug to tow it back home as the crew look over the husks of the remanining ships they wonder 'How could this happen'.

[Guest750]

BS. We have shields that block beaming. And a naquadah overload might take out halve the ship but not all of it. Plus the Daedalus class ships take a trip to Atlantis and stock up on jumpers. The jumpers go in cloaked and fire their drones. Drones have been seen to pass through shields so why wouldn't they pass through deflectors. The jumpers would then retreat, on of the ships beams a stargate connected to that black hole into the sun and they all jump to hyperspace.

Nukes can be shaped to focus blasts adn the Pwnage beams can't be disabled by radiation, you just made that up. Gotta stick to cannon.

[a6346]

BS. We have shields that block beaming.

Prometheus lost shields weren't you reading it? Besides your own ships can beam onto shielded ships so weres the proof Federation can't?

And a naquadah overload might take out halve the ship but not all of it.

So the ships bigger than Nevada? See they were going to overload the ships core which is pretty much the center of the ship. Blowing a modern ships weapons magazine would destroy the ship because it's in the center and if a ships broken in half it's structure is compromised and will be destroyed anyway.

Plus the Daedalus class ships take a trip to Atlantis and stock up on jumpers. The jumpers go in cloaked and fire their drones. Drones have been seen to pass through shields so why wouldn't they pass through deflectors.

Because there are only a limited amount of jumpers you can't use them all for combat roles when there needed in Atlantis. Enterprises don't just use deflector shields but normal shields like on Daedalus. We've seen drones bounce off shields before why wouldn't hey do the same a a shield which has a wider spectrum of defence than just 1(304's).

The jumpers would then retreat, on of the ships beams a stargate connected to that black hole into the sun and they all jump to hyperspace.

They came to the Startrek universe ugro no Stargates orbiting blackholes. And honestly how many more times is that going to be a stargate tactic, It was used once and that was to destroy a solar system.

Even then Federation ships can evade suns going supernova but will come out better than 304's that will have there hyperdrives technobabled with and sent to the other side of the universe. Therefore stupid tactic.

Nukes can be shaped to focus blasts and the Pwnage beams can't be disabled by radiation, you just made that up. Gotta stick to cannon.

Proof that they can't be?. Have you ever watched Startrek, they always come up with something like this, and there is no evidence that they can't be stopped like this. But either way Enterprise can just shoot them off with Phasors from behind. Oddysey is still not a match for E.

Now as for cannon. There is a thing called using it to much, Stargate plays around changing things as it is and so does Startrek. How many blackholes with stargates can possibly exist? Using that unimanative waist of time is stupid considering we've seen them outrun supernova's before and they were in ST universe not SG.

Fact is there isn't any way to mix these 3 universes together the only known fact is that BSG/BSP won't win unless the ships are unshielded and have a lack of beam weapons.

I just did this for fun, Did you read the rest of the thread because we have been talking about all these. And bringing up the old cliches or Stargate repeated tactics that don't work is stupid.

[Buba uognarf]

The Federation ships have better range and faster weaponry. They can sit at a distance and pound away at the 304's without ever having to get in range of the Asgard beams.

[LTCOLHOMER]

ok so stargate ships were made 400 years before the ente E i doubt makos could get into the prom and destroy it. 1 there is a beaming jamming field around the ship when they arnt beaming duhhh plus a team of makos verse a ship full of soldiers and scientists with military back rounds. yeah right plus one of the ships could fire all of its missles in tubes at the same time like deady in no mans land the overwelming firepower would probabll take out the shields and the fact there are so many missles means phaSERS WONT BE ABLE TO CLEAN EM ALL UP

[a6346]

yeah right plus one of the ships could fire all of its missles in tubes

Right because waisting all your missles on 1 ship is smart isnt it. Seriosly they fighting shielded ships waisting all your LIMITED missles is such a stupid idea when chances are they won't effect shields (Missles have proved in effective against shields all the time Apollo vs Assuran cruiser, Oddysey vs Hatak, Oddysey vs Toilet. there only good against hulls as everyone in this thread has said and agreed upon.

1 there is a beaming jamming field around the ship when they arnt beaming duhhh plus

Were has it been said that Promie has beam jamming fields on ship? We have never had any mention of transport jammers being active on our ships. Whats to say they would even work on Federation transporters just because they work on Asgard doesn't mean they will on UFP.

ok so stargate ships were made 400 years before the ente E i doubt makos could get into the prom and destroy it

The crew of Prom are only equiped with a few SG teams if even that (In 'Prometheus Unbound' I think it was), There was only 1 SG team which was SG3 I beleive and considering the're was a chance they might have to do some fighting and they only had 1 ship wouldn't they have had more. The SG teams were spread out through 6 ships. Also in the same episode 1 Kull warrior (Vala) managed to get to the bridge pretty much unchallenged intill Daniel shot her with a zat.