What can beat the Andromeda Ascendant?

[Crazy Tom]

but look mr smart guy, with all stargate tech, is it possible to win from andromeda? or with a dozen 304s?

A dozen 304s won't do any good. You need some sort of dialation device, the one the replicatos had specificaly.

Either that or.............relativistic tech.

[Orii]

We need yeilds to figure out if phasers can damage the andromeda, and they'd have to get past jamming.

How could jamming possibly stop a phaser beam? The Andromeda is unshielded, and we've never seen "jamming" stop an energy weapon, anywhere, ever. So you'd have to prove that phasers are too weak to damage the Andromeda's super hull.

Interestingly, thanks to ouroboros pointing out that everything that happens on screen is to be taken at absolute face value, then the same reasoning applied above means that the various torpedoes fired in ST must move at warp speeds as well, since they transverse normal space to close on a ship in warp (though not nearly as fast as a phaser does). And we've seen versions that can take out a Borg cube in a single shot. And we've also seen torpedoes that can alter their trajectory in flight, making them "smart." Which makes (at least some of) them work just like Andromeda's "smart missles" that according to Ouroboros has ranges of light minutes or significant fractions of an AU. And are extremely powerful. But move even faster (warp speed) than Andromeda's. Looks like any Federation ship would have no problem at all targeting and hitting the Andromeda, with phasers or torpedoes.

I don't care that torpedoes move painfully slow on screen sometimes, and that ships always seem within pissing distance. I think the captains just know we're watching and like to put on a good show. Because on screen events prove that the weapons at least have the capability to move much faster and over long distances if desired... like if some pesky ship didn't want to get close and kept jerking around at sublight speeds.

[Alterran1.]

Since Star Treks only standard way of travel is warp they would have made mention of a torpedo being capable of warp. I think the torpedo can be fired at warp speeds but only while the ship is at warp.

the range of a photon torpedo was slightly below 300,000 kilometers. (TNG: "The Wounded")
The energy output of a photon torpedo, according to the Technical Manuals is a maximum theoritical yield of 25 Isotons and a maximum rated yield of 18.5 Isotons. According to the TNG Technical Manual, photon torpedoes use 1.5kg of matter and 1.5kg of antimatter. The resulting energy output would be 2.7x1017Joules of energy (by the well-known formula E=mc2). This amount of energy release would be equilvalent to about a 64.44 megaton nuclear explosion.

[Crazy Tom]

How could jamming possibly stop a phaser beam? The Andromeda is unshielded, and we've never seen "jamming" stop an energy weapon, anywhere, ever. So you'd have to prove that phasers are too weak to damage the Andromeda's super hull.

But jaming can fool the snsors into firing at a ghost.

Interestingly, thanks to ouroboros pointing out that everything that happens on screen is to be taken at absolute face value, then the same reasoning applied above means that the various torpedoes fired in ST must move at warp speeds as well, since they transverse normal space to close on a ship in warp (though not nearly as fast as a phaser does).

Torpedies aren't warp capable, they use thsi gadget that lets them stay in warp if thir fired in warp, but a topedo fired in n-space can't achive warp.

And we've seen versions that can take out a Borg cube in a single shot. And we've also seen torpedoes that can alter their trajectory in flight, making them "smart." Which makes (at least some of) them work just like Andromeda's "smart missles" that according to Ouroboros has ranges of light minutes or significant fractions of an AU.

According to on screen dialogue. And they are NOT relativistic, at lest not high relativistic. the Enterprise herself (TNG) can't go too fast becasue they migh burn out their dampeners. So what engine coudl a torpedo mount that could go faster than the enterprise, who hads biger damperners and biger engines.

And are extremely powerful. But move even faster (warp speed) than Andromeda's. Looks like any Federation ship would have no problem at all targeting and hitting the Andromeda, with phasers or torpedoes.

Phasers can't be fired at warp, only topedoes.

I don't care that torpedoes move painfully slow on screen sometimes, and that ships always seem within pissing distance. I think the captains just know we're watching and like to put on a good show. Because on screen events prove that the weapons at least have the capability to move much faster and over long distances if desired... like if some pesky ship didn't want to get close and kept jerking around at sublight speeds.

Since Star Treks only standard way of travel is warp they would have made mention of a torpedo being capable of warp. I think the torpedo can be fired at warp speeds but only while the ship is at warp.

the range of a photon torpedo was slightly below 300,000 kilometers. (TNG: "The Wounded")
The energy output of a photon torpedo, according to the Technical Manuals is a maximum theoritical yield of 25 Isotons and a maximum rated yield of 18.5 Isotons. According to the TNG Technical Manual, photon torpedoes use 1.5kg of matter and 1.5kg of antimatter. The resulting energy output would be 2.7x1017Joules of energy (by the well-known formula E=mc2). This amount of energy release would be equilvalent to about a 64.44 megaton nuclear explosion.

Megatons please!

[Orii]

But jaming can fool the snsors into firing at a ghost.

Enterprise/Voyager/Defiant etc. hasn't been fooled by anything less than a cloak, and sometimes not even then.

Torpedies aren't warp capable, they use thsi gadget that lets them stay in warp if thir fired in warp, but a topedo fired in n-space can't achive warp.

That "gadget" must be a warp field generator that propels them forward. Without one, the minute they exit the Enterprise's warp field they would drop to sublight speeds. If they can generate a propulsive warp field, they can travel at warp. Ouroboros has laid down the rules, on screen trumps all.

Phasers can't be fired at warp, only topedoes.

There have been examples of phasers being fired at warp, from the original series right through to DS9. On screen trumps all logic, according to Ouroboros, so it is canon that phasers do indeed travel at warp speeds.

[Crazy Tom]

Enterprise/Voyager/Defiant etc. hasn't been fooled by anything less than a cloak, and sometimes not even then.

That "gadget" must be a warp field generator that propels them forward. Without one, the minute they exit the Enterprise's warp field they would drop to sublight speeds. If they can generate a propulsive warp field, they can travel at warp. Ouroboros has laid down the rules, on screen trumps all.

There have been examples of phasers being fired at warp, from the original series right through to DS9. On screen trumps all logic, according to Ouroboros, so it is canon that phasers do indeed travel at warp speeds.

Well I'm quoting from the TNG tech manual....so yah You guys duke it out, I droped Trek some time ago.

[Ouroboros]

I can't believe you are actually still arguing against all logic. What are you, like 12?

I just quoted this for the pure irony of you opening with a pithy personal insult at the same time you attack my maturity level.

So your entire argument is based on GGI > on screen dialog and everything the writers, producers, and creators have said about it, and everthing that has been written about it (tech manuals) and accepted as canon so long as it doesn't contradict something said on the show. CGI trumps all... except in Andromeda land. The CGI guys control canon more than the guys who write the show. Interesting. What a lame ass argument... but I'm glad you're sticking to it because in the end it falls flat on its face.

Your arrogant air of indignation would work a lot better if every post you made didn't further expose your ignorance of the subject matter.

As has already been explained in this thread. The Andromeda creators made it their policy that the dialog in their series would outweigh the visuals. Where you seem to be getting confused is that this policy is not one I have made up on my own, it is what they said about their own canon policy. I'm not aware of any similar statements on canon policy from anyone involved with star trek. If you can find any I'd love to see them because as I've also said I think the Andromeda type policy is a policy that should be adopted more often.

The "few extras" happen to be words from Roddenberry, from the writers (dialog spoken directly on screen which is unquestionable canon), and every tech manual written, which is only just below on screen dialog on the hierarchy of canon. You have an unusual capacity to ignore reality.

If you're referring to that stuff in your last post about nadions this and technobabble that it's hardly as clear cut as you make it. You've got one quote from one tech manual (that I'll admit I initially missed) that calls it a lightspeed beam stacked against every time a phaser has been shown to be fired in over what, 2 decades of star trek?

I hardly think I'm the one refusing to see reality here.

Actually, I get exactly that impression.

Well that just proves one of three things.

-You own a seeing eye dog

-You were lying when you wrote this

-You don't actually know what a lightspeed beam would look like

There are two rules the CGI creaters follow to modify the way an actual light speed (or higher) beam would look. It has to be seen by the viewers, and it would be nice if you can tell who shot and who got hit. Within the confines of those two quite reasonable rules, I honestly do think that the weapon they have depicted is meant to travel much like a laser, at the slowest.

You could represent phasers as a lightspeed beam just by taking out the part of the effect where it takes time for the beam to reach the target and keep everything else. It would have almost no effect on what it looked like so your argument that it's necessary that they slow them down doesn't hold water. Even if it was though it wouldn't change the outcome. If they made concessions to make it look cooler then they did exactly that. They made concessions to make it look cooler. Concessions like making phasers a non lightspeed weapon. It works just fine in the series as a non lightspeed weapon and has for many years. There's not really any reason in the series why it needs to be a lightspeed weapon at all. The only reason it needs to be lightspeed is in this thread and is because you think that'll make it more likely to threaten the Andromeda. The actual series gets along just fine with phasers being what they actually are depicted as, sublight beams.

I'm not saying they're not fast, they are. They're a lot faster than the blobs in stargate, but fast and lightspeed are still a long way apart. A phaser might cover a few kilometers almost instantly, which indeed it seems to do, but that's not going to hold true over a few hundred thousand or millions of kilometers.

Don't confuse my arguments with other posters. Phaser sounds like laser because Roddenberry made it that way... because he wanted a laser weapon but didn't want people (just like you) *****ing about it not looking exactly like lasers they see in real life.

So he created something different... Again there's nothing about star trek that requires that phasers be lightspeed beams at all. The series works just fine with them as sublight.

And I love how this writing is "technobabble", but the stuff written for Andromeda is put on a shrine.

You see though, as I already explained, Andromeda has that compelling reason of the people making it coming out and saying that it's tech material and dialog outweighed it's visuals. That's what you're missing. It's obvious that you're only persisting in the idea that phasers are light speed beams because you want Trek to have more of an advantage here. Trek itself doesn't require lightspeed phasers and if you watch it without a pre existing bias or motive you'll never come to the conclusion that that's what they are.

Now this is the really funny part. Your whole argument is based on CGI trumping all dialog, everything that is written, logic, and physics yet when what happens on screen doesn't agree with what you believe you toss it aside.

You keep going on about logic and physics but I expect you don't actually understand either very well, especially logic. If you did you wouldn't be placing your conclusion "phasers are a lightspeed weapon dammit" in front of your observations and analysis the way you're so enthusiastically doing.

So here I get to tear apart your lame assed argument on its own terms. Each ship in the ST universe traveling at warp does so within its own warp bubble, which does not extend very far past the boundaries of the ship (about as far as shields), and we've seen examples of this on screen. The space between two ships at warp is composed of normal space (i.e., not stretched by a warp bubble). If a beam fired from a trailing ship to a leading ship actually traverses the distance and makes it, then it must have passed through a region of normal space. We've seen examples of this on screen. If a beam passing through normal space surpasses the speed of ships traveling at warp, then the beam itself must move through normal space faster than light. It must, because this is what on screen events say must happen. According to your own sacred rules, this is indisputable truth in the ST universe. Faster than even most of the writers, screen dialog, and tech manuals have to say about it. I'm glad you established that on screen trumps all of that for us, since this gives ST ships a decided advantage over the Andromeda.

See here's an example of what I just talked about above. You've placed your conclusion before your analysis and essentially twisted this whole thing to make it seem like phasers that move at warpseed is the only possible conclusion. In so doing though you've naturally ignored the fact, as you have from the start, that when fired at sublight speeds phasers clearly are not observed to travel at warp.

Now what an honest person would have done in this situation is try to come up with an explanation for why a weapon which obviously does not move at warp speeds, can still somehow be useful at warp speeds. That indeed seems to be what that passage you quoted from the tech manual tried to do, though of course you twisted it, as you have with everything else, to attempt to support your predetermined conclusion.

Well, now that you have proven for us that phasers can travel so fast, we're left to figure out how to rectify that with the CGI and the way battles are depicted. I think they're 500 feet apart so that viewers can see who is fighting who without tons of cuts, pans, etc. Seems reasonable. Nice of the ships to put on good entertainment for us. And I think the CGI slows down the beam and colors it so that we can actually see it, and can see who shot... and who got shot. Seems like I said that earlier.

So in your last little bit of dramatic rhetoric you boldly declared that you were going to apply my "sacred rules" to show how easily you could "tear apart my lame assed argument" and yet here you are again with the "I thinks" and throwing out the on screen evidence whenever it doesn't suit you. You can't even maintain consistency in a single post.

Of course then I suppose it should come as no surprise when you go running around further demonstrating your bias in those follow up posts. The ones where you again talk about "sticking with the on screen evidence since ouroboros says it's so important" while at the same time just ignoring all the countless contradictory sublight examples of phaser and photon fire in favor of only using the at warp ones to call them both warp speed weapons.

What you're doing in actuality is exactly what I said in my last post. You're just forgoing observation of the actual evidence in front of you in favor of making up your conclusion on how phasers should work and then writing off anything that doesn't fit with that conclusion with shallow excuses about "CGI issues" of one type or another. The power of imagination.

can we stop this? the entire thread is:

people suggest a ship, the andromeda fans defend the andromeda, and you get a techno battle. cant the andromeda fans just suggest a stargate ship, or get the hell out of the S&T forum and got to general sci fi discussion?

I'll suggest an Ori toilet for a draw. It probably won't win but if it's shields can survive a Ha'tak crashing into them, a significant kinetic impact, it probably won't outright loose either.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Yes, the Ori ship would likely end up causing Andromeda to run out of missiles. Now that would be funny. Andromeda could fly circles around it all day, but it could take anything she can dish out (presumably)! It has no chance of hitting her, but sadly Andromeda does rely on ammo-requiring weapons, so she'd probably have to go find an asteroid, make more missiles, then come back and find the Ori ship has recharged its shields and start all over again. The literal never-ending battle.

[Jeffala]

The Ori warship does have smaller, faster pulse weapons that seemed to be capable of destroying Ha'taks in just a few hits. If they could blanket an area around Andromeda, they could possibly hit her.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Possible. They did seem to be far faster than other pulse weapons in Stargate, but they still looked fairly slow.

[thekillman]

well they were barely visible. just little dots.

[Jeffala]

Little dots of concentrated death!

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Little dots? How high is the resolution on your screen? They're not all that small on mine.

[thekillman]

well last time i watched camelot they werent that big

[Jeffala]

I would guess that they're about the size of a ha'tak's weapons' fire but that they're seen from such a distance that they look smaller.