What can beat the Andromeda Ascendant?

[Orii]

Just took a quick look, and despite star trek being notorious for things moving and working at "the speed of plot", phasers are described much more often than not as EM weapons that move at the speed of light. This starting with Gene Roddenberry himself (the original pilot even called them lasers, and he had the name changed just so people wouldn't ***** about the one screen depiction not matching exactly with how lasers are known to behave... sound familiar? ). Several tech manuals and wiki's confirm that they are EM, though occasionally, even in the show there is mention of them being particle based. Go figure. One tech manual attempts to explain that by claiming that the power source and energy radiation are exotic particle based, but the beam itself that is released is EM.

Interestingly, according to deep space nine, recent upgrades and advances in technology have allowed phasers to be fired in the subspace realm, traveling at warp+ speeds. That might give the herky-jerky Andromeda something to think about.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

The PHASER is the only weapon that I will accept as light speed contrary to CGI without dialog proof. And that's just because we actually know how to make one and what it is: a PHased Array laSER

[Cap.Dylan Hunt]

it was already said.

and i dont get how they manage 8 missiles per second.

how many does it even have???

Andromeda has endless missles. She uses nanobots to manufactor missles. So she never runs out. The only thing andromeda cant make her self is Nova Bombs which have to be made specialy.

[Crazy Tom]

All of this talk about Star Trek...am I the only one who thinks that it is ridiculous that, in the Stargate universe, Humans from Earth in the year 2008 have a vastly superior level of technology than the Humans in the Star Trek Universe have in the 24th Century? I mean, the Star Trek show takes place over 300 years from now, and while Humans are depicted as capable of interstellar travel, they take years to explore a very small corner of the galaxy. Now compare it to Humans in the Stargate universe in the year 2008, who can travel between galaxies in minutes, have energy-matter converters, time-dilation field technology and weaponry that can slice in half with ease huge ships that are far more powerful than the ones the Enteprise fights again, and does it with much lesser difficulty than the Enterprise is able to destroy the much smaller and less powerful enemy ships it faces in it's universe. We have in the Stargate show technology that is at least 10,000 years ahead of what real Earth has in the year 2008, and maybe as much as 100,000. I get redded all the time by the fan boys for pointing out this, but I won't stop doing it because I just can't stand this wank because it is simply way, way too over the top. I still like a little bit of realism and actual science in my science-fiction.

Ooorah!

Andromeda has endless missles. She uses nanobots to manufactor missles. So she never runs out. The only thing andromeda cant make her self is Nova Bombs which have to be made specialy.

Not technilcaly true, she stil needs materials, like an rich asteroid.

[Ouroboros]

The Earth team would probably just use the Ancient ascension machine. Everyone ascends, an ascended army is formed and Q is toast. Remember that in Stargate the "Fifth Race" is an utterly invincible force of doom, and no way no how would the Stargate writers accept to do a crossover episode with Star Trek where this basic premisse is nullified. If a crossover episode were done between Stargate and Star Trek and Q were the opposition to the SG team, for the first time ever the omnipotent, omniscient being from the Q Continuum would meet it's annihilation at the hands of the even more omnipotent "Fifth Race"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know this was probably meant at least partially as a joke but it's actually (sickeningly) pretty accurate I think.

Encounter at Farpoint was an episode about human behavior and if we really should be going out into the galaxy to spread our ideas given our violent history, if we're really ready yet or if we will just do more harm to others than good. Q himself was just basically a plot device to force that test upon the heroes, a test they eventually passed.

Now in stargate this would be the sort of situation that calls for that patented "third option" a trick of technobabble or some other ancient discovered nonsense that basically allows the writers to dodge the entire issue. The point of the episode is really about proving that humans deserve and can manage the responsibility of being a space faring race, in stargate though it would just be about "can our team of heroes cheat their way around Q's unfair and evil test somehow" the question of whether or not they deserve to be out there would never be answered and it's likely that the writers wouldn't even realize that was the actual point of the whole story.

SG most recent string of unapologetically human centric behavior and general contempt for the viewpoint, struggles and even the very lives of misc "evil" aliens is exactly the sort of thing Q was accusing Picard of. Being a small narrow-minded and inherently violent race, to immature and petty to ever co-exist with potentially radically different alien species.

[Ouroboros]

You're kidding, right? I can't think of a single sci-fi show or movie that has every showed any energy weapon wavefront move at the speed of light. There's a pretty obvious reason for this... CGI. Who wants to see a ship blown up by an invisible line that works instantaneously as soon as someone presses the fire button? Because that's what it would really "look" like. Even in that context, however, phasers mover extremely fast compared to all of the slow glowing pulse weapons that are seen elsehwere. It is obvious to anyone with a brain that this is depicting a weapon that moves like a laser. Hell, even the name gives it away.

So now you're just being insanely ridiculous. You're not really serious, are you? Are you really trying to claim that CGI meant for the sole purpose of entertainment trumps actual physics? For the slow ori beam weapons... sure, I'll give you that. They make them move slow enough so that it is obvious they aren't a light-speed weapon. But phasers? Please tell me you're just trying to be a jackass on purpose, and that you don't really believe that?

A phaser is just another one of any number of made up sci-fi weapons. There's no proof that it should be doing anything other than what we see it doing on screen.

What evidence do you have, aside from your own opinion and some non specific grumbling about how physics supports you, that phasers are actually meant to be a light speed weapon?

For another example Star Wars even has weapons that are called "turbo lasers". It even has laser right there in the name but it's nothing like an actual laser in reality. Just like the phaser it's some sort of sublight beam that radiates coloured light in all directions. Where as a laser would be a lightspeed beam that's completely invisible in space.

Would that make for a boring battle to watch, yes, which is why I said earlier that a lot of shows could stand to learn from the way Andromeda handles this issue. Make the dialog higher canon that the FX so you can have the flashy glowing beams and yet still have them be lightspeed weapons in the background for realism purposes.

In the absence of that kind of a stated policy though you don't just get to decide to pretend that the sublight glowing beams they're showing on screen are actually laser like weapons moving at lightspeed.

The PHASER is the only weapon that I will accept as light speed contrary to CGI without dialog proof. And that's just because we actually know how to make one and what it is: a PHased Array laSER

It can't be though. Not only does it not look like one or move at lightspeed but it also doesn't damage like one. Phasers disintegrate people/targets in some strange way that modern physics can't understand. Then there's also the stun settings that likewise don't make sense in the context of a real laser. Whatever kind of weapon it is it would be something completely unknown to modern science.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Okay, I'll grant the disintegration and stun stuff. But there really is such a thing as a PHASER:

One can design a laser cannon without a mirror or lens, if one uses a phased array. Currently we can create phased arrays for microwaves and radars, but have no idea how to do it with visible light. It would take a major technological break-through, but it is not actually forbidden by the laws of physics. Another nifty effect of phased array emitters is that they're flat and can fire at any angle (range will suffer at extreme angles), without requiring a turret assembly.

Dr. Yo came to the horrified realization that the logical acronym for PHased Array laSER was ... aiieee!

[Orii]

A phaser is just another one of any number of made up sci-fi weapons. There's no proof that it should be doing anything other than what we see it doing on screen.

What evidence do you have, aside from your own opinion and some non specific grumbling about how physics supports you, that phasers are actually meant to be a light speed weapon?

Erm, you aren't for real, are you? First, it's a TV show, and as such it has to show something on screen. And if it shows anything, it won't be true to the way a light-speed weapon works, thus it is absolutely impossible to satisfy your ridiculous requirement. As such, something beyond CGI is necessary to clarify, and thankfully a ton of it exists going back to Roddenberry's own writings.

According to The Making of Star Trek phasers are basically lasers, but they have the beam set on a pulsating frequency that can be specifically set to interfere and interact with the wave pattern of any molecular form. This is called "phasing" the beam frequency, hence the name.

If this were the case for the original series weapons, it might be that the lasers of "The Cage" and phasers of the rest of the show possibly were just two different terms for the same thing. As stated by Gene Roddenberry in The Making of Star Trek, Two days into filming of the second pilot, they realized that three years later people are going to say "Oh, come on, lasers can't do that" so the term was substituted due to the idea of the phasing principle of physics, that is a way of increasing power. Apparently he was talking of using higher phase velocities (aka frequencies) of light that in turn consist of higher energy photons. In a broader sense of the word these would still be "lasers".

And also...

Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual explains the inner mechanisms of a phaser. Phaser is the acronym for phased energy rectification according to the process of turning stored energy into an energy beam without intermediate transformation. Energetic plasma is pumped to a prefire chamber made out of a superconducting lithium-copper. There it undergoes a rapid nadion effect in which strong nuclear forces are liberated. A protonic charge forms and is released in pulses to the emitter made out of the same superconductive crystal. A beam of elecromagnetic energy is released from it at the speed of light.

And for fun...

According to the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual, the EM energy beam of a phaser can be delivered at warp speeds due to an annular confinement beam jacket and other advances in subspace technology. These are stated to be new inventions in the late 24th century.

http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Phaser
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_Star_Trek
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Phaser

Unfortunately, the tech manuals are not available free, as they are published books. Though not canon to the degree where they supersede spoken dialog, they have been often blessed by Paramount, with some stuff even making it into later shows and movies. Spoken dialog confirms that phasers are EM radiation of some sort in places, and in others refers to the energy beam as "nadion particles." Being particles does not automatically render the beam to sublight speeds, however, since photons can be said to exist as particles as well. And since we don't know what the hell nadions are, there's no reason to think that this contradicts canon as stated elsewhere.

[Ouroboros]

Erm, you aren't for real, are you? First, it's a TV show, and as such it has to show something on screen. And if it shows anything, it won't be true to the way a light-speed weapon works, thus it is absolutely impossible to satisfy your ridiculous requirement. As such, something beyond CGI is necessary to clarify, and thankfully a ton of it exists going back to Roddenberry's own writings.

According to The Making of Star Trek phasers are basically lasers, but they have the beam set on a pulsating frequency that can be specifically set to interfere and interact with the wave pattern of any molecular form. This is called "phasing" the beam frequency, hence the name.

If this were the case for the original series weapons, it might be that the lasers of "The Cage" and phasers of the rest of the show possibly were just two different terms for the same thing. As stated by Gene Roddenberry in The Making of Star Trek, Two days into filming of the second pilot, they realized that three years later people are going to say "Oh, come on, lasers can't do that" so the term was substituted due to the idea of the phasing principle of physics, that is a way of increasing power. Apparently he was talking of using higher phase velocities (aka frequencies) of light that in turn consist of higher energy photons. In a broader sense of the word these would still be "lasers".

And also...

Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual explains the inner mechanisms of a phaser. Phaser is the acronym for phased energy rectification according to the process of turning stored energy into an energy beam without intermediate transformation. Energetic plasma is pumped to a prefire chamber made out of a superconducting lithium-copper. There it undergoes a rapid nadion effect in which strong nuclear forces are liberated. A protonic charge forms and is released in pulses to the emitter made out of the same superconductive crystal. A beam of elecromagnetic energy is released from it at the speed of light.

And for fun...

According to the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual, the EM energy beam of a phaser can be delivered at warp speeds due to an annular confinement beam jacket and other advances in subspace technology. These are stated to be new inventions in the late 24th century.

http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Phaser
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_Star_Trek
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Phaser

Unfortunately, the tech manuals are not available free, as they are published books. Though not canon to the degree where they supersede spoken dialog, they have been often blessed by Paramount, with some stuff even making it into later shows and movies. Spoken dialog confirms that phasers are EM radiation of some sort in places, and in others refers to the energy beam as "nadion particles." Being particles does not automatically render the beam to sublight speeds, however, since photons can be said to exist as particles as well. And since we don't know what the hell nadions are, there's no reason to think that this contradicts canon as stated elsewhere.

I can't believe you're still persisting in this.

Watch spike TV next week when the TNG reruns are on and tell me that's a lightspeed beam you're looking at.

This couldn't be simpler.

Watch the show = Orange beam flies out and hits something causing it to blow up/disintegrate/get stunned.

What the show + make up a few extras to strengthen your case on the internets = Light speed beam flies out and hits something causing it to blow up/disintegrate/get stunned.

You added in the baseless assumption that it was a lightspeed beam yourself. You can't watch the show and get that impression. Watching the show actually explicitly contradicts that impression. No to get that you have to add it in after with the power of your imagination and based on some really dubious reasoning, which is exactly what you're doing, as far as I can tell based only on the fact that "phaser" sounds sort of like "laser" and you personally think it should be a lightspeed weapon.

Even that techmanual technobabble doesn't say it's a lightspeed beam. That bit about firing at warp you can see in the shows and know what it refers to as well, even on Enterprise with the early tech. All it means is they can shoot at each other when they're both flying at warp, as in being chased/chasing. It doesn't mean that the beam gets from firing point to target point at warp speeds. If it did they wouldn't be fighting from 500 feet apart. Is it to much to ask that you actually think through the implications to the events of the series of what you're suggesting before you try to argue about it? Remember all those times in Trek when a ship dodged an incoming beam weapon? As in it moved out of the way before the beam got to it, as in the beam obviously wasn't moving at lightspeed. I can even recall scenes with people dodging out of the way of incoming phaser shots. I guess they're people that can move at lightspeed then huh?

If you're just going to make up arbitrary properties for phasers that you think they should have regardless of what we can actually observe them doing in the show why stop at this lightspeed beam thing? If you can just decide to ignore anything that happens on the screen that goes against your belief about what the weapon actually is like the sky's not even the limit.

Why not say that a phaser can shoot clear across the universe or cause enemy soldiers to fantasize about having sex with a 3 legged donkey? Sure we never saw them do that on the show but that doesn't seem to matter according to you. We can just blame it on FX limitations and the fact that they couldn't actually show them thinking about the donkey ****ing on screen.

[Orii]

I can't believe you're still persisting in this.

I can't believe you are actually still arguing against all logic. What are you, like 12?

Watch spike TV next week when the TNG reruns are on and tell me that's a lightspeed beam you're looking at.

So your entire argument is based on GGI > on screen dialog and everything the writers, producers, and creators have said about it, and everthing that has been written about it (tech manuals) and accepted as canon so long as it doesn't contradict something said on the show. CGI trumps all... except in Andromeda land. The CGI guys control canon more than the guys who write the show. Interesting. What a lame ass argument... but I'm glad you're sticking to it because in the end it falls flat on its face.

What the show + make up a few extras to strengthen your case on the internets = Light speed beam flies out and hits something causing it to blow up/disintegrate/get stunned.

The "few extras" happen to be words from Roddenberry, from the writers (dialog spoken directly on screen which is unquestionable canon), and every tech manual written, which is only just below on screen dialog on the hierarchy of canon. You have an unusual capacity to ignore reality.

You added in the baseless assumption that it was a lightspeed beam yourself. You can't watch the show and get that impression.

Actually, I get exactly that impression. There are two rules the CGI creaters follow to modify the way an actual light speed (or higher) beam would look. It has to be seen by the viewers, and it would be nice if you can tell who shot and who got hit. Within the confines of those two quite reasonable rules, I honestly do think that the weapon they have depicted is meant to travel much like a laser, at the slowest.

...as far as I can tell based only on the fact that "phaser" sounds sort of like "laser" and you personally think it should be a lightspeed weapon.

Don't confuse my arguments with other posters. Phaser sounds like laser because Roddenberry made it that way... because he wanted a laser weapon but didn't want people (just like you) *****ing about it not looking exactly like lasers they see in real life. There does happen to be a phaser in real life, but I'm not the one arguing that this proves the ST phasers work that way. Get your facts straight. And I don't think it should be a lightspeed+ weapon... it is one. Get over it.

Even that techmanual technobabble doesn't say it's a lightspeed beam.

What, this part?
According to The Making of Star Trek phasers are basically lasers, but they have the beam set on a pulsating frequency
Pretty clear. Or this part?
As stated by Gene Roddenberry in The Making of Star Trek... the term was substituted due to the idea of the phasing principle of physics... using higher phase velocities (aka frequencies) of light that in turn consist of higher energy photons.
Photons, light... = light speed. Or this part?
A beam of electromagnetic energy is released from it at the speed of light.
Hell, even a 12 year old should be able to figure that one out.

And I love how this writing is "technobabble", but the stuff written for Andromeda is put on a shrine.

Watching the show actually explicitly contradicts that impression... That bit about firing at warp you can see in the shows and know what it refers to as well, even on Enterprise with the early tech. All it means is they can shoot at each other when they're both flying at warp, as in being chased/chasing. It doesn't mean that the beam gets from firing point to target point at warp speeds.

Now this is the really funny part. Your whole argument is based on CGI trumping all dialog, everything that is written, logic, and physics yet when what happens on screen doesn't agree with what you believe you toss it aside. So here I get to tear apart your lame assed argument on its own terms. Each ship in the ST universe traveling at warp does so within its own warp bubble, which does not extend very far past the boundaries of the ship (about as far as shields), and we've seen examples of this on screen. The space between two ships at warp is composed of normal space (i.e., not stretched by a warp bubble). If a beam fired from a trailing ship to a leading ship actually traverses the distance and makes it, then it must have passed through a region of normal space. We've seen examples of this on screen. If a beam passing through normal space surpasses the speed of ships traveling at warp, then the beam itself must move through normal space faster than light. It must, because this is what on screen events say must happen. According to your own sacred rules, this is indisputable truth in the ST universe. Faster than even most of the writers, screen dialog, and tech manuals have to say about it. I'm glad you established that on screen trumps all of that for us, since this gives ST ships a decided advantage over the Andromeda.

If it did they wouldn't be fighting from 500 feet apart.

Well, now that you have proven for us that phasers can travel so fast, we're left to figure out how to rectify that with the CGI and the way battles are depicted. I think they're 500 feet apart so that viewers can see who is fighting who without tons of cuts, pans, etc. Seems reasonable. Nice of the ships to put on good entertainment for us. And I think the CGI slows down the beam and colors it so that we can actually see it, and can see who shot... and who got shot. Seems like I said that earlier.

Is it to much to ask that you actually think through the implications to the events of the series of what you're suggesting before you try to argue about it?

Touche'.

Remember all those times in Trek when a ship dodged an incoming beam weapon? As in it moved out of the way before the beam got to it, as in the beam obviously wasn't moving at lightspeed. I can even recall scenes with people dodging out of the way of incoming phaser shots. I guess they're people that can move at lightspeed then huh?

No, I guess they're just dodging at the anticipation of being shot at... random movements of evasion. Sort of like Andromeda, huh?

Look, I think ST probably has more inconsistencies and "at the speed of plot" problems than almost any other sci-fi show. Except stargate, maybe, and some of the really cheesy cheaply done ones. That isn't in dispute. But I'm not the one ignoring the bulk of evidence because it goes against what I "want" to be the case.

If you're just going to make up arbitrary properties for phasers that you think they should have regardless of what we can actually observe them doing in the show why stop at this lightspeed beam thing? If you can just decide to ignore anything that happens on the screen that goes against your belief about what the weapon actually is like the sky's not even the limit.

Wait... aren't you talking about Andromeda now?

Why not say that a phaser can shoot clear across the universe or cause enemy soldiers to fantasize about having sex with a 3 legged donkey? Sure we never saw them do that on the show but that doesn't seem to matter according to you. We can just blame it on FX limitations and the fact that they couldn't actually show them thinking about the donkey ****ing on screen.

I think 12 may have been generous. I'm revising that to six.

[thekillman]

can we stop this? the entire thread is:

people suggest a ship, the andromeda fans defend the andromeda, and you get a techno battle. cant the andromeda fans just suggest a stargate ship, or get the hell out of the S&T forum and got to general sci fi discussion?

[Crazy Tom]

What's t matter? We need yeilds to figure out if phasers can damage the andromeda, and they'd have to get past jamming.

can we stop this? the entire thread is:

people suggest a ship, the andromeda fans defend the andromeda, and you get a techno battle. cant the andromeda fans just suggest a stargate ship, or get the hell out of the S&T forum and got to general sci fi discussion?

But this is sci-tech, general is......general.

[thekillman]

and sci tech is stargate. at the first message it is stated it has to do with stargate, but so far i havent seen alot of stargate

[Crazy Tom]

and sci tech is stargate. at the first message it is stated it has to do with stargate, but so far i havent seen alot of stargate

Were between seasons, and besides, stargate discusion has to be suplemented.

[thekillman]

but look mr smart guy, with all stargate tech, is it possible to win from andromeda? or with a dozen 304s?