Now thats a weapon worth using, still ammo dependent but more kills per drone- no need to launch 1000's in one go
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The Ancients could have certainly done with some Taur'i influence when designing their ships. Your right, there should be more CIWS and certainly more cannons to take out regular threats. Lantean ships should have
Big Beam Weapons - Blowin Hives away 1 shot
Standard Cannons - Causing damage to nearby capital ships
CIWS Cannons - Killin of the fighters
Drone Weapons - Pinpoint attacks
The Aurora is also way too long as its manouverability sucks so bad, its as manouverable as a Star Destroyer. That smaller cruiser featured at the start of season 4- the one that looks like a massive puddlejumper- now thats well designed. Its smaller, very manouverable, well armed and canonly carries energy weapons.
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Well, according to the calculation I provided earlier, the Daedalus can take ~74 gigatons of firepower on its shields before they fail. Come to think of it, this now means I can finally finish the final part of my Daedalus vs. Andromeda scenario Ouroboros! I'll do that right now, and post the probabilities on the thread ASAP!
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Originally posted by jnadreth View PostThe Ancients could have certainly done with some Taur'i influence when designing their ships. Your right, there should be more CIWS and certainly more cannons to take out regular threats. Lantean ships should have
Big Beam Weapons - Blowin Hives away 1 shot
Standard Cannons - Causing damage to nearby capital ships
CIWS Cannons - Killin of the fighters
Drone Weapons - Pinpoint attacks
The Aurora is also way too long as its manouverability sucks so bad, its as manouverable as a Star Destroyer. That smaller cruiser featured at the start of season 4- the one that looks like a massive puddlejumper- now thats well designed. Its smaller, very manouverable, well armed and canonly carries energy weapons.
Originally posted by Lt. Col. Mcoy View PostWell, according to the calculation I provided earlier, the Daedalus can take ~74 gigatons of firepower on its shields before they fail. Come to think of it, this now means I can finally finish the final part of my Daedalus vs. Andromeda scenario Ouroboros! I'll do that right now, and post the probabilities on the thread ASAP!
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Originally posted by NoobTau'ri View PostI got to disagree here. We are talking about energy weapons here, and energy moves at the speed of light. Unless you can prove that Einstein was wrong about his theory of special relativity - in which case I foresee a Nobel in physics for you -, then there is no reason to assume that an energy weapon won't be able to shoot down any missile. Besides, you are forgetting that shields are massively strong. I mean really, really, really strong. Remember that ha'taks have the weakest shields of any vessel in Sgverse, and yet we've seen the shield of Apophis ha'tak take a 1 gigaton nuclear explosion in point blank and nothing happened to it besides that it shaked a little bit. If such a weak shield can resist a 1 gigaton explosion, then there is no reason to assume that mid to high gigaton nuclear explosions will take out the much stronger shields of Anubis' ha'taks, of Asgard motherships and Ori warships. The way to bring down these shields is not by brute force, because only probably a supernova or hypernova has the capacity to bring down those shields by this method, but rather to use specific beams composed of specific energy particles that make the shield oscilate, and concentrate all that power in a single spot until it collapses. Shields, even the weakest ones, are simply to effective at deflecting energy per square inch/foot of surface to be brought down.
Of course that the Goa'uld should be able to use true lasers. We're already having lasers. But it's not their point.
And true lasers are the black sheep of TV SF, because you cannot see them as long as you fire in vacuum, unless you merge them with some technobabble to make them visible.
At best, you can propel "plasma" bolts at super speeds like if they were solid projectiles. Then the plasma gains a significant kinetic energy added to its original energy, whatever it's supposed to be.
Apophis' ship never took the full yields of the gatebusters. The terran missiles were destroyed before reaching the ship, as shields were not foreseen by Stargate Command and Norad.
These explosions, due to the naqahdah present in the warheads, still managed to release powerful EM waves.
I'm also sorry, but you don't need anything as crazy as supernovas or hypernovas to take down Ha'tak shields. That's terribly incorrect.
Originally posted by jnadreth View PostYet nuclear weapons are capable of blowing up Wraith Hive ships rather easily while the Ancients used rather inneficient Drone weapons. Drone weapons are admittedly powerful but are an ammunition based weapon that is hard to produce hence why there is precious few drones in Pegasus. Its easier to kill a hive ship with nukes than to build drone weapons let alone ZPM's. As I have said before building an entire fleet which is ammunition dependent restricts the time the ship is operational for before re-load especially when they have very powerful energy weapons at their disposal yet are not installed aboard warships. The Ancients had science but they did not understand war as the Taur'i or the Asgard do
Please consider one simple thing, while we're at it. We've seen entire hiveships being totally vapourized by internal explosions due to nuke beaming. However, even if the beamed nukes were worth of one or two gigatons, they couldn't entirely vapourize 11 kilometers long spaceships covered with armour which has been able to resist nukes which would be, at least, in the megaton range.
You need much much more energy to do so.
The logic behind this being that the energy for such explosions didn't come from the beamed nukes, but from the reactants or energies constrained into Wraith cores. And that's a lot of energy.
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Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View PostThis would be true if only the Goa'uld used EMR guns, like hard gamma rays, photons or else. But they use plasma bolts of exotic nature and composition, which largely ignore gravity, and travel much slower than light.
And true lasers are the black sheep of TV SF, because you cannot see them as long as you fire in vacuum, unless you merge them with some technobabble to make them visible.
At best, you can propel "plasma" bolts at super speeds like if they were solid projectiles. Then the plasma gains a significant kinetic energy added to its original energy, whatever it's supposed to be.
Apophis' ship never took the full yields of the gatebusters. The terran missiles were destroyed before reaching the ship, as shields were not foreseen by Stargate Command and Norad.
These explosions, due to the naqahdah present in the warheads, still managed to release powerful EM waves.
I'm also sorry, but you don't need anything as crazy as supernovas or hypernovas to take down Ha'tak shields. That's terribly incorrect.Last edited by NoobTau'ri; 20 June 2008, 06:30 PM.
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Originally posted by NoobTau'ri View PostI'm sorry, but can you supply evidence for this contention? The only race in Sgverse which we know for sure created plasma beam weaponry are the Asgard, and even then only in season 9.
Lasers, obviously not.
It doesn't leave much beyond "glowing bag of energized particles". Likely exotic supercharged bags of ions.
I know for a fact that the Beliskner utilizes energy weaponry that can destroy a Ha'tak with one shot...
... and the O'Neil utilizes energy pulse cannons that can destroy even Anubis' ha'taks - and we know this because Anubis backed down from the O'Neils. The weapons of the O'Neil are extraordinarily powerful, yes, but they are still regular good ol' particle beams and not plasma beams.
We only got to see plasma beam weaponry in "Unending" the very last episode of season 9.
And the only reason the Asgard even cared to develop them is because plasma beams are pretty much the only thing that can bring down the hyper-powerful shields of Ori motherships - not even the weaponry of the O'Neil, as formidable as it is, could do that. So unless you prove otherwise, we need to assume that plasma weapons only came into the scene in "Unending".
All we know is that it's a weapon based on a given sort of plasma, and that's all. The mere fact that the beams don't dissipate from the moment they're fired, like a water hose, precisely show that they are beams of whatever that keeps the magic plasma beam shaped rather conveniently.
And again, these beams are terribly slow.
This is redundant because this is sci-fi. A physicist and engineer like myself might be upset to see visible lasers, but the general viewer couldn't give a damn.
So the only option left is to fire particles or solid projectiles as fast as possible to intercept missiles. Or advanced missiles, like drones.
Particles? The Goa'uld bolts are notoriously slow. Kinetic guns? Only the Tau'ri use railguns. Missiles? The Tau'ri's missiles are pathetic in speed and capacity to reach a target on their own. Only Alteran drones rule supreme.
The Goa'uld have nothing of that.
Again, the beams fired from ha'taks, hives and Asgard warships seem to move at light speed.
Who do you think you're kidding with that pretense exactly?
Of course, we can't see something moving at light speed...
...but what I'm saying is that it dosen't seem to be moving at speeds significantly slower than 192,000 mp/h.
Ok, perhaps I'm wrong about the bomb detonating, but the bottom line is that we have seen that the shields of ha'taks can resist being in the coronosphere of stars for hours, which means they can take quite a punch.
We also know they can easily take the firepower of other ha'taks at 200 megaton a pop, which is also quite a punch.
However, we've never seen the Goa'uld hurl nukes.
Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.
Where did I say that the shields of ha'taks can only be brought down by supernovas?
Supernova only capable of taking them down?
You just have no clue what you're talking about.
I said that they likely can resist energy blasts in the gigaton range. I said that the far more powerful shields of Asgard motherships, of Anubis' ha'taks, Ancient warships and Ori motherships can probably only brought down through sheer strengh by something like a supernova explosion, and I am sticking to that statement.
Oh, I don't have evidence. *shame*
Le't's see...Sam Carter mentioned that ha'taks fires bolts at 200 megaton a pop. We know that the shields of ha'taks can take that firepower easily, because we have seen ha'taks firing at each other several times. Now, consider that Asgard shields are much stronger than those of ha'taks. How much could they take? Even if only 10 times more, that already gets us into the gigaton range. So I'm not buying that gigaton level nukes could bring down Asgard shields or Ori shields. Sorry.
I want proof that Asgard ships, notably Biliskners, can one shot Ha'taks, pre-Anubis.
We have seen in "Camelot" an Ori motherships being hit by the combined firepower of several ha'taks and one O'Neil at once, and the shield didn't even fluctuate. The firepower of an O'Neil is massively superior than ha'taks, and even that didn't make the Ori shields fluctuate, so I''m sticking to my theory that super-concentrated beams of exotic particles are a more effective way of bringing down shileds than gigaton nukes until presented with counter-evidence. You are welcome to do that.
Learn the meaning of evidence first.
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Well Mr. oragahn beat me to most of this but since you did address this to me I suppose I should have a word as well.
Originally posted by NoobTau'ri View PostI got to disagree here. We are talking about energy weapons here, and energy moves at the speed of light. Unless you can prove that Einstein was wrong about his theory of special relativity - in which case I foresee a Nobel in physics for you -, then there is no reason to assume that an energy weapon won't be able to shoot down any missile.
To put it another way, the glowing blobs of doom fired by ships in stargate resemble a lightspeed weapon about as much as Teal'c resembles a 110 pound Valley Girl. This isn't news to anybody, neither are the spitting distance ranges they have to fight at as a result.
Besides, you are forgetting that shields are massively strong. I mean really, really, really strong. Remember that ha'taks have the weakest shields of any vessel in Sgverse, and yet we've seen the shield of Apophis ha'tak take a 1 gigaton nuclear explosion in point blank and nothing happened to it besides that it shaked a little bit. If such a weak shield can resist a 1 gigaton explosion, then there is no reason to assume that mid to high gigaton nuclear explosions will take out the much stronger shields of Anubis' ha'taks, of Asgard motherships and Ori warships. The way to bring down these shields is not by brute force, because only probably a supernova or hypernova has the capacity to bring down those shields by this method, but rather to use specific beams composed of specific energy particles that make the shield oscilate, and concentrate all that power in a single spot until it collapses. Shields, even the weakest ones, are simply to effective at deflecting energy per square inch/foot of surface to be brought down.
-It's likely that the alien weapons do incorperate some sort of special shield damaging extra property but this isn't because the shields are to super duper powerful to be brought down otherwise. This idea was something that various people dreamed up as an attempt to explain why the weapons seem to have such a miserable sub kiloton DET content in so many scenes and yet they can still drop shields that are theoreticaly being powered by large naquada reactors and enduring things like the blue giant example.
There's nothing however to suggest that a strike or strikes from large naquada boosted nuclear missiles, (provided they're finally fused properly) would be inherently ineffective against shielded ships. Especially when you take into account all the added perks of a vastly longer ranged fully guided weapon.
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Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View PostI believe staff weapons were described as plasma based, and Ha'tak's guns look like super staff cannons. Besides, what else could they be? Solid projectiles? No.
Lasers, obviously not.
It doesn't leave much beyond "glowing bag of energized particles". Likely exotic supercharged bags of ions.
It's very nice that you know that fact because I don't know where you found it. I've never heard, nor seen anything showing that an Asgard ship could one shot a Ha'tak.
They fire pulses which have much more to do with your average SF plasma bolt than a true particle beam.
Just because it is described as plasma weaponry doesn't mean other weapons can't be. For example, Tollan used ion cannons, and surprise surprise, the bolts were just your average SF bolt.
Not really. If it was that simple, that is, use plasma instead of anything else, it wouldn't require superscience out of Goa'uld reach to get those.
All we know is that it's a weapon based on a given sort of plasma, and that's all. The mere fact that the beams don't dissipate from the moment they're fired, like a water hose, precisely show that they are beams of whatever that keeps the magic plasma beam shaped rather conveniently.
And again, these beams are terribly slow.
You realize that you physicist and engineer has completely shot your own foot, right? The point I was making is that Goa'uld don't use lasers. One of the reasons being that it's TV SF, where real lasers suck.
So the only option left is to fire particles or solid projectiles as fast as possible to intercept missiles. Or advanced missiles, like drones.
Particles? The Goa'uld bolts are notoriously slow. Kinetic guns? Only the Tau'ri use railguns. Missiles? The Tau'ri's missiles are pathetic in speed and capacity to reach a target on their own. Only Alteran drones rule supreme.
The Goa'uld have nothing of that.
You're a physicist and an engineer and you tell me these bolts move at light speed?
Who do you think you're kidding with that pretense exactly?
I wonder if I'd like to engage in semantics about what seeing means. Like if all we see is only photons.
For the love of Hoff, just watch a frakin' episode at least.
Would you rate that "star punch" by any chance?
Yes, this is more or less correct, though there's always people to remind us that the 200 megaton is, first, from an AU universe, even if every bit of tech seemed the same, and secondly, that we have no proof that it came from the cannons.
However, we've never seen the Goa'uld hurl nukes.
Priceless
Oh yes, sorry. Excuse me. You were just pulling numbers out of your arse about asgard, ori and anubis' shields
(which are still Goa'uld shields need I remind you).
Supernova only capable of taking them down?
You just have no clue what you're talking about
No, they can only be taken down by energies worth of... anything that can destroy a galaxy. There.
Oh, I don't have evidence. *shame*
Did I claim that? Who has reading comprehension problems now?
I want proof that Asgard ships, notably Biliskners, can one shot Ha'taks, pre-Anubis.
I won't bother with counter evidence because there's no evidence to counter to boot.
Learn the meaning of evidence first.Last edited by NoobTau'ri; 21 June 2008, 03:44 AM.
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Originally posted by Ouroboros View PostWell Mr. oragahn beat me to most of this but since you did address this to me I suppose I should have a word as well.
I think you're getting to hung up on the fact that they call them "energy weapons" in the show. They're just generic glowing sci-fi "pew pew" guns like the ones in starwars or any number of other sci-fi shows. They all work the same way. Colourful glowing thing shoots out, hits something and blows it up.
To put it another way, the glowing blobs of doom fired by ships in stargate resemble a lightspeed weapon about as much as Teal'c resembles a 110 pound Valley Girl. This isn't news to anybody, neither are the spitting distance ranges they have to fight at as a result.
-As mentioned by Mr. O already, the Goa'uld buster didn't detonate as evidenced by the lack of a nuclear flash the same sort of EMP type effect occured when Carter energised a small amount of naquada in the SGC.
-It's likely that the alien weapons do incorperate some sort of special shield damaging extra property but this isn't because the shields are to super duper powerful to be brought down otherwise. This idea was something that various people dreamed up as an attempt to explain why the weapons seem to have such a miserable sub kiloton DET content in so many scenes and yet they can still drop shields that are theoreticaly being powered by large naquada reactors and enduring things like the blue giant example.
There's nothing however to suggest that a strike or strikes from large naquada boosted nuclear missiles, (provided they're finally fused properly) would be inherently ineffective against shielded ships. Especially when you take into account all the added perks of a vastly longer ranged fully guided weapon.
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Just a few comments regarding what you said Noob Tau'ri:
1) Plasma is an ionized gas... so yes, it is composed of ions.
2) It's not really necessary to accelerate particles at 99.99% light speed in a particle weapon. Even Mach 3 is sufficient for close combat (between ships of course), it depends on the distance.
3) I do not believe Goa'uld or Wraith weapons travel at light speed or even close to it. If that were the case after a ship fires, the target would feel the shot alomst instantly and this is not the case... we've seen that it takes some time for the shot to travel through space and reach the target (for Wraith weapons watch The Seige part III or Travelers). I believe that the Wraith and the Goa'uld use particle weapons. (or maybe some exotic form of energy that travels at a smaller speed than c ... it's not uncommon for SF shows to rewrite the laws of physics)
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NoobTauri, Andru is exactly right. It you are a physicist, you should be ashamed. Also, most everything Ouroboros and Mr. Oragahn have said is also true. What you say has merit, but it simply doesn't hold up. What I mean is, it is a great explanation of how these weapons might work, but it is contradicted by the evidence. Much like evolution.
And guys, this has also derailed the thread. this thread was created for people to post conjectures on the strength of weapons (and shields). Not to argue about composition. Please, if you can, raw data and calculations would be best to limit yourselves to.
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Originally posted by Andru10 View PostJust a few comments regarding what you said Noob Tau'ri:
1) Plasma is an ionized gas... so yes, it is composed of ions.
2) It's not really necessary to accelerate particles at 99.99% light speed in a particle weapon. Even Mach 3 is sufficient for close combat (between ships of course), it depends on the distance.
3) I do not believe Goa'uld or Wraith weapons travel at light speed or even close to it. If that were the case after a ship fires, the target would feel the shot alomst instantly and this is not the case...
we've seen that it takes some time for the shot to travel through space and reach the target (for Wraith weapons watch The Seige part III or Travelers)
I believe that the Wraith and the Goa'uld use particle weapons. (or maybe some exotic form of energy that travels at a smaller speed than c ... it's not uncommon for SF shows to rewrite the laws of physics)
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Originally posted by Lt. Col. Mcoy View PostNoobTauri, Andru is exactly right. It you are a physicist, you should be ashamed.
I am full of ****.
Also, most everything Ouroboros and Mr. Oragahn have said is also true.
What you say has merit, but it simply doesn't hold up. What I mean is, it is a great explanation of how these weapons might work, but it is contradicted by the evidence.
Much like evolution.
And guys, this has also derailed the thread. this thread was created for people to post conjectures on the strength of weapons (and shields). Not to argue about composition. Please, if you can, raw data and calculations would be best to limit yourselves to.Last edited by NoobTau'ri; 21 June 2008, 11:43 AM.
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