Interstellar Empire/Fleet Strategy for the Stargate powers

[Crazy Tom]

You guys can write a lot.

It comes naturaly after a while.

[Lord batchi ball]

I don't know about a Empire but more of a cooperation. We befriend a world rich in the nessary materials with a limited population that has a basic grasp in advanced physics and mechaincs, This world would be around the the 1980's.

They would build starships, weapons, and other things we need built.
And we would provide protection for that planet as well as slowly advance them.

[stargater1990]

Hi guys, this is my first post, so I wanted to start off with an interesting topic, which I am not sure has been discussed or not. In terms of empires and fleet logistic each race seems to have come up with different ideas for fleet support and empire infrastructure to allow it.

Well, the first one is the Gou'ld empire was based around a slave infrastructure with industrial scattered to a few isolated world. Their technical skills are applied to their ships in a limited extent based on the same old patterns. In terms of logistics, Gou'ld fleets are basically large carrier groups based around the concept of fighters and capital ships with smaller ships functioning as scouts or cargo vessels for further logistics value.

The Asgard before their demise had used a simple one ship or small group task force to carry out operations. Their neutrino generators were powerful enough to power most of their civilization and they had unlimited raw resources to draw upon due to their matter conversion technology, which is similar to replicators from star trek in some sense (although molecular reconstruction and reformatting is more likely, so even air can be made into something of substance). They did not utilize a carrier function force, but a battleship superiority designation.

The Alteran/Asurans share a similar technological tree and they may have different effects for ships, but basically same ideology went into fleet implementation. Similar to the Asgard strike force with smaller vessels carrying the role of fighter, cargo ship, and scout. I believe they have similar if not identical matter conversion technology to the Asgard, which eliminate the need for vast resources and they had abundant energy from ZPMs.

The Wraith are similar to the Gou'ld with a carrier strike group, but they also carry along fleet integration with cruisers, large troop transports, and other warship classes other than their battleship/mothership. Their fleets are constructed using an organic and inorganic materials, so there are some restraints to production capabilities. We do not know much of their logistics as of yet.

The ori have the same ancient idea of battleship tactics and fighter roles for a carrier strike group en masse. Their ships are created with industrial fabrication from worshippers, which is similar to Gou'ld logistics. Ther power source is possibly zpm inspired or better.

Now here is the question, what type of combination should the Tauri or Earth take? As a galactic empire on the rise, earth has chances now to take itself to a whole new level of dominance either as a master technical power like ancients and asgard or the god-like power of gou'ld, wraith, and ori.

This is not a simple question of new ships, but a complete question of logistical needs for the earth fleet and interest of expansion with the native populous.

when have we seen any evidence about them having matter conversion technology?

[Forthestars]

Umm....You do not remember that Danny boy was building the weapon against the ori using Ancient matter conversion tech both on Merlin's lab and Ori mothership.

They both have matter conversion tech, but it does not mean complete independent and no maintenance required. Maybe, I am thinking too much into the inner workings of the galactic powers and referencing them with other shows.

[nich959]

Yes, for major maintenance, the kind of maintenance that would probaly require a dry dock for wet navy craft.



Hence the "logistics", enlighten me on the British part.

I do believe that he was refering to the fact that the british navy at the time of the empire was the most powerfull in the world, this gave them a massive startegic advantage



Ok, you take the said parts and ship them through the gate, any siciety advanced enough to need "partss" woould have made as many as possible of of them gate-compatible. Anything larger would only need to be tower by a ship, and since there wouldn't be many of those oversised parts, a handful of ships can do it easily.



When did tehy say that it was not a city ship platfor? And yes, outposts are useful for power projection, but not for fleet staging, an aurora is several times larger than any outpost. Even their cruisers would be hard pressed to land on an outpost.



The problem you seem to have is trying to extend "wet navy" philosoplies into a space envirinment, that doesn't really work, especialt a SG space environment.

As a matter of presence, not as logistical stations ,through they would probaly act as dry docks for large scale maintenance.

Oh and as for the logistics of running an interstellar empire, we currently dont have the man power to do so (in my opinion)

[Forthestars]

To Crazy Tom:
Usually, a "wet navy" philosophy for ships and fleets is how many Sci-fi shows with starships operates. In B5 and Star Trek, you have similar fleet operation headquarters found at starbases or space stations in key sectors of space. In Andromeda, you will use key solar systems and build bases in orbit around them and stage fleets due to their FTL technology/network. No ship is an island onto itself; unless it is a super size ship, which counts as a mobile base since they must remain stationary for fleet operations and coordination aka the Taelon mothership from Earth Final Conflict.

We know their are key regions and sectors in SG universe; remember the mentioning of the Asgard ceding to the Gou'ld a region of space in fair game. Then, should it not be assumed that they would have staging and fleet bases around those areas as well. Real world navies work the same way; island bases are used to station key fleets.

Concerning the city ship idea platform idea for outpost, we can agree to disagree, but the times that off world bases of the ancient that have been discovered have showed varying size and use. Research bases, weapons depots, shipyards, and all the rest. They are not all landing platforms for city ships; they are independent bases of operation. Are you saying that all of them were city ship platforms?

To nich959-Well, it is a matter of time before earth starts to project outward and become an power. We do not need many worlds at first, what do we have now is still considered a power? We got off-world research bases, mining facilities, and back up facilities like the alpha site, beta site, gamma site, and mining planet. We have at least 3-4 worlds under our control, so we have some power. Everyone may think earth is puny, but it has more resources than just limited to one world. We really are no longer an underdog in our own galaxy, but a true major power.

Pegasus on the other hand is not an easy pick off, since we only have a small foothold there.

[nich959]

To Crazy Tom:
Usually, a "wet navy" philosophy for ships and fleets is how many Sci-fi shows with starships operates. In B5 and Star Trek, you have similar fleet operation headquarters found at starbases or space stations in key sectors of space. In Andromeda, you will use key solar systems and build bases in orbit around them and stage fleets due to their FTL technology/network. No ship is an island onto itself; unless it is a super size ship, which counts as a mobile base since they must remain stationary for fleet operations and coordination aka the Taelon mothership from Earth Final Conflict.

We know their are key regions and sectors in SG universe; remember the mentioning of the Asgard ceding to the Gou'ld a region of space in fair game. Then, should it not be assumed that they would have staging and fleet bases around those areas as well. Real world navies work the same way; island bases are used to station key fleets.

Concerning the city ship idea platform idea for outpost, we can agree to disagree, but the times that off world bases of the ancient that have been discovered have showed varying size and use. Research bases, weapons depots, shipyards, and all the rest. They are not all landing platforms for city ships; they are independent bases of operation. Are you saying that all of them were city ship platforms?

To nich959-Well, it is a matter of time before earth starts to project outward and become an power. We do not need many worlds at first, what do we have now is still considered a power? We got off-world research bases, mining facilities, and back up facilities like the alpha site, beta site, gamma site, and mining planet. We have at least 3-4 worlds under our control, so we have some power. Everyone may think earth is puny, but it has more resources than just limited to one world. We really are no longer an underdog in our own galaxy, but a true major power.

Pegasus on the other hand is not an easy pick off, since we only have a small foothold there.

It depends on your definition of empire, If you think we have an empire now than we must agree to disagree here. We have the potential to be a a major power but at the moment the amount of ships we is........3 and a few wings of fighters. In my terms the term controlling a planet means either ruling over the popualtion or colonizing it properly with men and women who plan to live there for the rest of their lives having families etc.

[Crazy Tom]

To Crazy Tom:
Usually, a "wet navy" philosophy for ships and fleets is how many Sci-fi shows with starships operates. In B5 and Star Trek, you have similar fleet operation headquarters found at starbases or space stations in key sectors of space. In Andromeda, you will use key solar systems and build bases in orbit around them and stage fleets due to their FTL technology/network. No ship is an island onto itself; unless it is a super size ship, which counts as a mobile base since they must remain stationary for fleet operations and coordination aka the Taelon mothership from Earth Final Conflict.

Andromeda FTL imposes these junctions, as ships have to tral through "slip points", and SG ships have no such thing, plus there are stargates, which provide instantaneous acess to almost any plnet. And you point about most sci-fi using wet navy schemes is moot, just because they use it doesn't mean it's right.

We know their are key regions and sectors in SG universe; remember the mentioning of the Asgard ceding to the Gou'ld a region of space in fair game. Then, should it not be assumed that they would have staging and fleet bases around those areas as well. Real world navies work the same way; island bases are used to station key fleets.

I imagine the Asgard patroled these systems, Thor mentions a few times that they can't enforce teh PPT with their fleet strech out so by the replicator war.

Concerning the city ship idea platform idea for outpost, we can agree to disagree, but the times that off world bases of the ancient that have been discovered have showed varying size and use. Research bases, weapons depots, shipyards, and all the rest. They are not all landing platforms for city ships; they are independent bases of operation. Are you saying that all of them were city ship platforms?

Which episodes were these mentioned in?

To nich959-Well, it is a matter of time before earth starts to project outward and become an power. We do not need many worlds at first, what do we have now is still considered a power? We got off-world research bases, mining facilities, and back up facilities like the alpha site, beta site, gamma site, and mining planet. We have at least 3-4 worlds under our control, so we have some power. Everyone may think earth is puny, but it has more resources than just limited to one world. We really are no longer an underdog in our own galaxy, but a true major power.

Pegasus on the other hand is not an easy pick off, since we only have a small foothold there.

Actualy ythose facilities you speak of are qicly set up camps, a few mining camps, a few reserch ones, that's about it, anyone can do that. None of them has any real infrastructure.

[Forthestars]

To Crazy Tom:

We can discuss applications of wet navy doctrines if you want shown in Stargate; either implicitly by the actions of major powers or explicitly from episodes of the 10 seasons of SG1.

To the ancient bases and permanent city bases that you may not consider as landing platforms only; here are a few episodes mentioned with alternate uses; Start off with, "the Torment of Tantulus" episode, with the outpost of the four great races possibly ancient designed from season 1 eps 10 (even if it were not still there are more planets and outposts), "lost city part 2" had the Proclarush Taonas outpost/astronomical database on the volcanic planet from SG1 season 7 eps. 22, you have vis urban from season 8 episode 01 "fallen", and then you have Dakara, which is both an ancient weapons/life reforming outpost from "Reckoning part I and II" along with "threads" Season 8 eps 16-18. I did not include the ancient repository of knowledge scattered throughout the milky way or the more important lab of Merlin, which may count as ancient outposts only post-plague without much of the other ancient technology.

Those ancient bases were just from SG1, let's not forget about Stargate Atlantis and Pegasus: In the SGA episode "Trinity" from season 2 eps 6 Project Arcturus was placed on the surface of a planet as a research outpost to the ancients, and Taranis from "inferno" season 2 eps 19 had an ancient outpost/shipyard. We could also include the city on Athos that was of ancient design, but it was destroyed over 10,000 years ago from season 1 eps 01.

For earth bases, not just tents, look at the following episodes: Covenant SG1 season 8 eps 08 for the new alpha site and the scourge season 9 eps. 17 for the research base gamma site.

You are right up to season 7, the off world bases were only tents including the mining planet with Unas in Enemy mine season 7 eps 07. We also had to use tents for the season 7 eps 01 for the X-302 squadrons. However, season 8 and after has given us real bases with mountain type hide aways and large squadrons of fighter with personnel off world. We have established footholds on at least 2 worlds, what is to say we have not done so to others.
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We are more than just a simple group of explorers; once you establish permanent military and research bases with supporting troops and weapons on worlds that only you inhabit outside of your home world, you have made yourself a galactic power.

There was writer of the early 20th century, who said that this was the American century due to sheer military and industrial superiority over the world's current great powers; even though, it possessed none of their vast territorial claims at the time with only a handful of colonies and a smaller army than the rest.

[Crazy Tom]

To Crazy Tom:

We can discuss applications of wet navy doctrines if you want shown in Stargate; either implicitly by the actions of major powers or explicitly from episodes of the 10 seasons of SG1.

To the ancient bases and permanent city bases that you may not consider as landing platforms only; here are a few episodes mentioned with alternate uses; Start off with, "the Torment of Tantulus" episode, with the outpost of the four great races possibly ancient designed from season 1 eps 10 (even if it were not still there are more planets and outposts),

It wasn't an "outpost" it was a meting place, the most high tech piece of tech was a hologram projectro with a databank of elements.

"lost city part 2" had the Proclarush Taonas outpost/astronomical database on the volcanic planet from SG1 season 7 eps. 22,

All ancient outpost(city lanind platforms) have the said astromonical database, look at teh earht outpost when shepard activated it, and brough up a map of the solar system, seems likely that all outpost have these.

you have vis urban from season 8 episode 01 "fallen",

It was an actualy city, where peopel woul live and work, not some fleet base or force projection thingy, it was an urban centrer, where do you think the ancients lived? they obviously needed cities to house hteir own population.

[QUOTE]
and then you have Dakara, which is both an ancient weapons/life reforming outpost from "Reckoning part I and II"
[QUOTE]

That's what it was, nothing more, have you seen a warehouse under that mountain? or a shypyard in orbit? or housing for any ancient personell. Dakara is one of those Big Dumb Objects.

along with "threads" Season 8 eps 16-18.

Where in the episode?

I did not include the ancient repository of knowledge scattered throughout the milky way or the more important lab of Merlin, which may count as ancient outposts only post-plague without much of the other ancient technology. .

Were any of these capable of projecting force, or resuplyingh flets or ship? or repairing them? No, so they don't count.

Those ancient bases were just from SG1, let's not forget about Stargate Atlantis and Pegasus: In the SGA episode "Trinity" from season 2 eps 6 Project Arcturus was placed on the surface of a planet as a research outpost to the ancients,

Now tha tplace was a city, a big damn city, that woudl hold loads of population, and let's not forget the ancients were a species of scientits al "cities" would robably be more like reserch stations.

and Taranis from "inferno" season 2 eps 19 had an ancient outpost/shipyard.

Taranis is actualy works for yo definition of an outpost, as it coudl house, and probabyl resuply and repair at least oen auroora class warship. however for all we know it was just that, a shypyard, not a staging point.

We could also include the city on Athos that was of ancient design, but it was destroyed over 10,000 years ago from season 1 eps 01. .

Ecactly, a CITY, you kind of need these in order to house your population.

For earth bases, not just tents, look at the following episodes: Covenant SG1 season 8 eps 08 for the new alpha site and the scourge season 9 eps. 17 for the research base gamma site.

You are right up to season 7, the off world bases were only tents including the mining planet with Unas in Enemy mine season 7 eps 07. We also had to use tents for the season 7 eps 01 for the X-302 squadrons. However, season 8 and after has given us real bases with mountain type hide aways and large squadrons of fighter with personnel off world. We have established footholds on at least 2 worlds, what is to say we have not done so to others..

Touche on the Alpha site. However, their not real cities, they have no infrastructure, tehy rely on earth for any parts and suplies.

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We are more than just a simple group of explorers; once you establish permanent military and research bases with supporting troops and weapons on worlds that only you inhabit outside of your home world, you have made yourself a galactic power.

There was writer of the early 20th century, who said that this was the American century due to sheer military and industrial superiority over the world's current great powers; even though, it possessed none of their vast territorial claims at the time with only a handful of colonies and a smaller army than the rest.

Ok, having toow planets out of a billion, how does that make us a "galactic power"?

[Forthestars]

It wasn't an "outpost" it was a meting place, the most high tech piece of tech was a hologram projectro with a databank of elements.

Well, it was over ten thousand years old at least, if not older. As you ask me to contend; what evidence can you prove that it was not a galactic outpost and simply just a meeting place, it could very well be both?

All ancient outpost(city lanind platforms) have the said astromonical database, look at teh earht outpost when shepard activated it, and brough up a map of the solar system, seems likely that all outpost have these.

Okay the use of astronomic observatories can be done everywhere, but does it mean that all ancient outpost must be landing platforms for cityships? Can you give me evidence to prove your point as well?

It was an actualy city, where peopel woul live and work, not some fleet base or force projection thingy, it was an urban centrer, where do you think the ancients lived? they obviously needed cities to house hteir own population.

Well, some species use population centers as colonies; thus, a staging point or force projection i.e. look at the Aschen from "2010" and "2001" episodes for my basis. Can you say the ancients were not like that considering we had mentions of the Ancient's/Alteran's empire from Joanas and Daniel from "Fallen"?

[QUOTE]
and then you have Dakara, which is both an ancient weapons/life reforming outpost from "Reckoning part I and II"

That's what it was, nothing more, have you seen a warehouse under that mountain? or a shypyard in orbit? or housing for any ancient personell. Dakara is one of those Big Dumb Objects.

Big dumb objects, hehe. Come on after 10,000 years you got to admit things will either fall apart of be taken away be i.e. the Gou'ld who took over the planet first. They may have de-constructed the shipyards and technologies for reverse engineering like we are doing in the show.

By the way, I just remembered another Big dumb object of ancient design on another planet that you can not say was not for another purpose other than landing platform, the Gate destroyer that Anubis was using.

Where in the episode?

Dakara was also in "threads" just showing the three episodes

Were any of these capable of projecting force, or resuplyingh flets or ship? or repairing them? No, so they don't count.

They were more research and development center, which counters your assumption of a city platform designation for all Ancient outposts. They may not have to resupply ships, but they sure were not landing areas.

Now tha tplace was a city, a big damn city, that woudl hold loads of population, and let's not forget the ancients were a species of scientits al "cities" would robably be more like reserch stations.

As I said cities are both bases and strong points in any empire, especially if that city was so big and industrialized. It was a research and military facility with all the debris destroyed in orbit, you can not say my assumption may not be right.

Taranis is actualy works for yo definition of an outpost, as it coudl house, and probabyl resuply and repair at least oen auroora class warship. however for all we know it was just that, a shypyard, not a staging point.

Well, it might have been part of a larger shipyard base, but geothermal irregularities could have destroyed some of them. Also, it was sure as heck not a city landing platform as you said and I will mention again.

Ecactly, a CITY, you kind of need these in order to house your population.

A city can be a base as the Ancients like it that way

Touche on the Alpha site. However, their not real cities, they have no infrastructure, tehy rely on earth for any parts and suplies.

They have infrastructure and we really do not know how big the alpha site is other than a few snapshots. Also if you have a gamma site for research, then there must be a beta site too, just alphabetical. Now we do not know how many worlds the Tauri have bases on and if they are all uninhabited or sparsely inhabited like the mining world with the Unas from "Enemy mine". Don't forget we could have built a permanent facility there as well.

Ok, having toow planets out of a billion, how does that make us a "galactic power"?

It is more like three maybe four planets out of a few thousand that are capable of supporting life in our galaxy, not billions unless you want to be a universal power (wait for the 10th season of Atlantis for that). We have declared war against the Lucian alliance, who are considered a galactic power; even though, they only have really a couple of worlds according to Vala. So we are just a small, but potent power.

Oh by the way, the aschen only had a dozen worlds in their confederation, so size does not matter as much in terms of galactic power. The Asgard only had one permanent planet at the end of season 8, but they were fine with smaller outposts and bases for their empire controlled regions.

What is wrong with just thinking we might have an empire in the works? Everyone does it in their own way; it is just human nature to want to expand and conquer.
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Now do you want to discuss the wet fleet applications of Stargate galactic powers and our real world application. Gou'ld fleet staging points, seen in season one of SG1 with Apothis two Hat'ak (it should have been more like 20, but SF budget was the problem back then, oh well), and Ancient fleets that faced off against the Wraith strike groups, which we saw in season one of Atlantis with 3 hives and dozens of cruisers.

I know fleets are not something most stargate fans want, but it is just a means of galactic policy. Gates are great, but limited in size and lack the ability to carry forth large amounts of troops. Ships are better and they can be used to strike hard and fast into the heart of your foes.

[Crazy Tom]

Will you please be so kind as ot place all your answers outside my quotes. Makes it easier to answer.