Countering the Ori /Asgard beam weapons

[Zatnikitelman]

Since when did the Asuran beam fit through a Stargate!!?? The beam was fired through the 'Gate, for all we know, the actual weapon itself was the size of one of the city-ships and weighed 600 million tons! Frankly, a stargate-deployed weapon like that would pwn all. Imagine Earth launching one of those at a Lucian installation, then firing the Asgard beams through the outgoing side of the 'Gate.

[Buba uognarf]

Since when did the Asuran beam fit through a Stargate!!?? The beam was fired through the 'Gate, for all we know, the actual weapon itself was the size of one of the city-ships and weighed 600 million tons! Frankly, a stargate-deployed weapon like that would pwn all. Imagine Earth launching one of those at a Lucian installation, then firing the Asgard beams through the outgoing side of the 'Gate.

Its true the weapon itself could be larger, but I doubt its a huge contraption. Its most likely similar in size to normal SG weapons.

[pyrodude]

Could you not deploy a space gate within a wraith fleet (cloaked jumper)? Then have a BC-304 dial it from another location and start firing through it.

Add some rudementry sensors, enough to pick out a hive, and some of those propolsion units to spin it around and you have an incredibly powerful and tough (the 'gate can take a lot of abuse) weapons platform.

Sorry i'm off topic but I had a flash of genius.

[Buba uognarf]

Asgard beams are too big to fit through the gate.

[pyrodude]

How big are they at the firing point (turret?)

Anyway some would go through though.

[pbutter]

Actually Larren's Aurora was able to destroy Asuran ones and appeared to suffer no damage. Compare this to our ships which were apparently losing shields.

Actually, it's far more likely that because the Hives and 304's were doing the most damage, they were priority targets, while Larrin's Aurora, which is a mediocre warship, was a secondary target, with the rest being cannon fodder.

My point was they easily had the technology to do so.

About that- Even Earth has means of phase cloaking the 304's thus making them invincible... but that's never going to happen.

If we can build these technologies so can the Wraith. The Wraith seem to have never really had an incentive to build such technology. Shields would have been pretty useless against the Ancients and only in the last few years has another race threatened them. Beam weapons may be hard for them on their own but with full scans of a working model they should be able to create their own versions. They can't be that complicated if we can make them.

The Asgard Core is very user friendly, that is why earth is able to construct the beam weapons.

[JSPuddlejumper]

"So you're saying that Aurora's can't fire more than a a couple dozen drones at once? Even though a seriously damaged Aurora managed to do it?"

Here is the logic:

The Aurora's were build around a ZPM as the powersource. The Ancients relied heavily on ZPMs. Take that away, and the Ancients likely lacked a secondary powersource with enough power to keep everything at 100%. For instance, the Asgard need a massive powersource for their ships, 304's shields and hyperdrives are far underpowered without a ZPM.

The Ancients never needed a secondary powersource or even considered one until the the Wraith started stealing ZPMs. That is not much time to build a sufficient powersource with remotely close to ZPM capabilities.

As far we know, Larren's Aurora does not have a ZPM. Otherwise , John et al. and the Wraith would have gone after it. Now if the Asuran's followed the Ancients example of removing ZPM's because the Wraith can board and steal them...Asuran Aurora's also lacked a ZPM. The means much less powerful shields, hyperdrives and YES, less drones fired off at once. To power a massive ship like the Aurora requires massive power.

This hypothesis holds, since neither Larren's Aurora or any of the Asuran ones fired off massive drone barrages.

Now an Aurora with a ZPM would be able to fire 100 drones at once, while maintaing shields at max, firing energy weapons simultaneously etc.

"If we can build these technologies so can the Wraith."

We got help from the Asgard. The Wraith are not so fortunate, unless you see the Nox helping them out.

[Metonic]

And do you know they are not that advanced?

That should be obvious.

“Urm the most logical solution to that problem would be to take the armour off...”

Oh yes, Earthlings and Jaffa certainly did well on that, trying to take off Kull armor while being killed, yep. Look how much effort it took Carter to take off the armor of a killed Kull warrior!

Somebody wearing Kull armor will take out a legion of Wraith. The Kull warrior is like the Ori ship, supreme killing machine. Biologically speaking, MW Reps are #1 (SG’s version of the Daleks).

Didn't they get a suit or two off the Kull Warriors and use them? Then develop armor based off the Kull Warriors? I remember it being mentioned when they tested a new vest by shooting it with a staff weapon. Perhaps they were testing something else. Point is, they have a couple suits laying around, if they were as useful as you say, they would use them.

Also. i don't know if you're saying the Kull Warriors are like Daleks or the Replicators are like Daleks, because the paragraph mentioned Kull Warriors, Wraith, and Jaffa and not replicators, yet you say MW Reps, which I believe is Milky Way Replicators. Anyway, neither side would be considered as great as the Daleks. Daleks are emotionless, yet intelligent. Kull Warriors are emotionless, but have the intelligence of a dog. Replicators are intelligent, but as we've seen before, have emotions, at least the human form ones do.

"There was nothing special about the Orion situation bar the fact the Aurora in question was damaged and still out preformed the Asuran ones."

Yes, it did. It also outpeformed Larren's Ancient build Aurora.

"How is this a special situation? The Orion fired drones and they destroyed the ships. This is how most of the battles in the ancient vs wraith war went."

Let me spell it out.

No other Aurora after that, be it the Asuran OR ANCIENT built Aurora of Larren's fired off that many drones off at once and still had shields on.

1) Plot hole: Because they had to make the Asuran's lose somehow. Should be obvious to all but a child.

Thus, there were no drones fired from the planet (as John said there would be), Asuran Aurora were downgraded to near upgraded Ha'tak level, Asuran's had no weapons platform above the planet??? etc.

Puddle Jumpers can fire off a dozen drones in the blink of an eye, Ships that are a 100x the size should be able to send off 1200 drones in the blink of an eye.

As for beam weapons on Aurora's and why not? Since they imitiate the Ancients 100%, they would not have them.

Since Mckay screwed with their code, they may be able to do anything they want now. And if they did imitate the ancients 100% they would continue to advance.

I highly doubt the Wraith could build beam weapons on their own, it is way beyond them.

As for advanced shields, no, way beyond them.

Intergalatic hyperdrives, beyond them for now. Michael may have some indication, since he was on one of the Hives heading for Earth.

I'll some what agree with this. Except, I don't believe it's way beyond them. Remember, the Wraith have had 10,000 years to develop new technology, and only the need to use any of it within the last 5 years. As for Hyper-drive they had 10,000 years of steady food and being asleep, then out of no where they get word that theres another galaxy with food, they had no need to develop hyper-drives until recently. I'm sure they attempted to build new weapons, or researched it, but they had no need to put it into action until 5 years ago, and now they are all screwed up.

[Buba uognarf]

Actually, it's far more likely that because the Hives and 304's were doing the most damage, they were priority targets, while Larrin's Aurora, which is a mediocre warship, was a secondary target, with the rest being cannon fodder.

Lol. Larrin's Aurora destroyed one of those Asuran knock-offs in a few seconds flat. You're now trying to rewrite canon here, by calling an Aurora mediocre compared to Hive ships when we know that Aurora's are far more powerful.

About that- Even Earth has means of phase cloaking the 304's thus making them invincible... but that's never going to happen.

Well our ships are invincible anyway thanks to the plot shields so it wouldn't make a difference. Either way the Asurans clearly have the capability for more powerful warships.

The Asgard Core is very user friendly, that is why earth is able to construct the beam weapons.

And? The Wraith are much more advanced and accustomed to building energy weapons. I'm sure they could build them if they had access to scans and a bit of time.

Here is the logic:

The Aurora's were build around a ZPM as the powersource. The Ancients relied heavily on ZPMs. Take that away, and the Ancients likely lacked a secondary powersource with enough power to keep everything at 100%. For instance, the Asgard need a massive powersource for their ships, 304's shields and hyperdrives are far underpowered without a ZPM.

Thats pure speculation. As I've already pointed out the Aurora even though heavily damaged was able to keep its crew of hundreds in stasis + operate a complex virtual reality for 10,000 years. It was then able to self destruct with enough force to vaporize 2 Wraith cruisers. We'd have known if it had a ZPM on board. Clearly their power sources are capable of running the ship at 100%. As I've said, puddle jumpers can fire drones with no problem and their power sources are hardly capable of powering an Aurora.

The Ancients never needed a secondary powersource or even considered one until the the Wraith started stealing ZPMs. That is not much time to build a sufficient powersource with remotely close to ZPM capabilities.

Not everything Ancient uses a ZPM. Their satellites can be powered with a measly naquadah generator and slice a Hive in half with one shot. Obviously their technology is very power efficient. You're assuming drones need huge amounts of power to fire, puddle jumpers can fire close to a dozen drones so the power requirements can't be that great.

As far we know, Larren's Aurora does not have a ZPM. Otherwise , John et al. and the Wraith would have gone after it. Now if the Asuran's followed the Ancients example of removing ZPM's because the Wraith can board and steal them...Asuran Aurora's also lacked a ZPM. The means much less powerful shields, hyperdrives and YES, less drones fired off at once. To power a massive ship like the Aurora requires massive power.

Larrin's Aurora didn't have a ZPM. What is your point? It still out preformed Asuran Aurora's. Maybe Aurora's only fire as many drones as needed, a large salvo was fired to destroy the Hive and smaller salvo's were fired against the Aurora and Wraith cruiser. It makes sense that only as many drones as needed would be launched. We've only seen a true Aurora in combat with a Hive ship once, the Asuran Aurora's outnumbered the Hives massively yet only destroyed one. Clearly Ancient Aurora's are superior. It is a plot hole but like it or not the Asuran Aurora preformed sub par when compared to the Ancient ones.

This hypothesis holds, since neither Larren's Aurora or any of the Asuran ones fired off massive drone barrages.

Larrin's Aurora fired as many drones as needed. The Asuran ones fired very few because they're imitations apparently...

Now an Aurora with a ZPM would be able to fire 100 drones at once, while maintaing shields at max, firing energy weapons simultaneously etc.

An Aurora without a ZPM can do it too. If drones use so much power how is it that Larrin's Aurora even after having its shields drained was able to destroy a Wraith cruiser with ease? With no mention of loss of power.

"If we can build these technologies so can the Wraith."

We got help from the Asgard. The Wraith are not so fortunate, unless you see the Nox helping them out.

Luckily the Wraith are much more advanced than we are. It may take some time but they could build them.

[nich959]

"So you're saying that Aurora's can't fire more than a a couple dozen drones at once? Even though a seriously damaged Aurora managed to do it?"

Here is the logic:

The Aurora's were build around a ZPM as the powersource. The Ancients relied heavily on ZPMs. Take that away, and the Ancients likely lacked a secondary powersource with enough power to keep everything at 100%. For instance, the Asgard need a massive powersource for their ships, 304's shields and hyperdrives are far underpowered without a ZPM.

The Ancients never needed a secondary powersource or even considered one until the the Wraith started stealing ZPMs. That is not much time to build a sufficient powersource with remotely close to ZPM capabilities.

As far we know, Larren's Aurora does not have a ZPM. Otherwise , John et al. and the Wraith would have gone after it. Now if the Asuran's followed the Ancients example of removing ZPM's because the Wraith can board and steal them...Asuran Aurora's also lacked a ZPM. The means much less powerful shields, hyperdrives and YES, less drones fired off at once. To power a massive ship like the Aurora requires massive power.

This hypothesis holds, since neither Larren's Aurora or any of the Asuran ones fired off massive drone barrages.

Now an Aurora with a ZPM would be able to fire 100 drones at once, while maintaing shields at max, firing energy weapons simultaneously etc.

"If we can build these technologies so can the Wraith."

We got help from the Asgard. The Wraith are not so fortunate, unless you see the Nox helping them out.

Spoiler:

Lots of drones there

*glances at first post*

How the hell did we get so offtopic

[JSPuddlejumper]

what pics?

no mans land aurora, diverted shields to drones, only way the drones would fire

larren's aurora, shields failed, afterwards drone volley

need a zpm

[Buba uognarf]

what pics?

no mans land aurora, diverted shields to drones, only way the drones would fire

larren's aurora, shields failed, afterwards drone volley

need a zpm

They mentioned that, "There was too much damage." They never said we've only got enough power to fire off a single drone volly. They were expecting to be able to fire again. Even in the episode before and in No Mans Land it was said that they didn't have weapons operational and they were trying to fix it on the way.

If they only had power to raise shields to 20% and yet still after losing those shields they had enough power to destroy a Wraith cruiser and jump to hyperspace etc...I think that shows that Aurora's have adequate power to use its full capabilities without a ZPM in an undamaged state.

[XFire]

I think its mainly down to creative story telling to why the ships are as comparatively weak as they were. Its quite stupid to design a ship that would need a ZPM that would go out fighting. After all, all of the ships we have encountered are damaged or not fully operational in some way, so it could be down to that. As for the Asurans, plot hole, it wouldn't be good if we lost now would it?

I think the reason for the Wraith's stagnation is simple. They didn't know that there were more people in another galaxy. Hell we didn't know of the Pegasus and Ori galaxy until their respective storylines. Also, it makes no sense to send out a ship to search for something that you may not find. They were happy with their way of life, so why did they need to change for an unexistant threat?

[Ouroboros]

If the beam weapons are really "plasma beams" then they're composed of matter. If they're composed of matter the best viable defence I can see against them would be to consume/destroy/disrupt them with something like the Asgard go away beam or Wraith culling beams used in a point defence role.

That fact that these large scale defensive disintigration beams could also double as a defence against drones, missiles, fighters and even as weapons against other ships is just an added bonus.

[JSPuddlejumper]

Think of this way:

(1) Almost all of us agree that the ZPM is at least as good as any other powersource out there, if not the best.

(2) We know that a ZPM boost power to the 304's shields and hyperdrive greatly. Possibly also the beam weapons.

(3) According to Todd, the Wraith were losing the war with the Ancients, UNTIL the Wraith starting boarding Aurora's and stealing ZPMs.

Ancients used ZPMs extensively, they specialized exclusively on ZPMs.

Therefore, the Ancients only had a short amount of time to try and replace a ZPM with a completely new powersource. There is no way they could have found something remotely close to a ZPM in such a short time. If they did, wouldn't they use that alternate powersource in all their ships? Atlantis, Tria (powered by a ZPM) etc., since the Wraith could steal ZPMs???

Conclusion:

ZPM >> alternative powersource the Ancient used on Aurora's.