Tollans as Goauld slaves, yay or nay

[pbutter]

Basically, this thread is all about Tollan, the people, their technology, their condescending view towards Earth and more importantly, did the Tollans deserve getting destroyed like that or as i like to think, made into Goauld slaves. So post your opinion, yay or nay, were they really Earth's allies or sneaky little, conniving evil doers.
Discuss, and remember, they tried to send a bomb through the StarGate to destroy Earth, just to save themselves.

[Jeffala]

Your post seems to imply that you think the Tollan people deserved to be made slaves to Anubis because the Curia was weak and bowed to Tanith's demands. Do you?

The Tollan people were kept ignorant of the Goa'uld threat against them as well as the plan to develop and hand over weapons of mass destruction. The only member of the government who gave more than token opposition was killed by the others. The people don't deserve to die or be enslaved because of their government's actions.

[RepliVeggie]

The curia was just scared didn't know what to do. The Tollan are good people and it would be cool to see Anubis took some of them as hosts for their technology. Since the Goa'uld are finished we can free them from the snakes and they can rebuild or help us with some new tech we may not have.

[pbutter]

Your post seems to imply that you think the Tollan people deserved to be made slaves to Anubis because the Curia was weak and bowed to Tanith's demands. Do you?
This thread is not about me, stick to the topic.

The Tollan people were kept ignorant of the Goa'uld threat against them as well as the plan to develop and hand over weapons of mass destruction. The only member of the government who gave more than token opposition was killed by the others. The people don't deserve to die or be enslaved because of their government's actions.

Thats like saying, because all Asuran's were not bad, we should not have destroyed them all. And not all of them were bad, but it had to be done.
As far as i remember the Tollan had a democratic government, and the people elect the governments, do they not.
And the tollan people were very much aware of Earth, and like you said, only one member of the government was against their plan to destroy Earth, a population of billions.

And people, lets not shoot the messenger.

[Jeffala]

This thread is not about me, stick to the topic.

You want to know our opinions. Why not provide yours first?

Thats like saying, because all Asuran's were not bad, we should not have destroyed them all. And not all of them were bad, but it had to be done.

The Asurans had no civilians. And while there was a "rebel" faction, it was also true that as long as the Asurans were around, humans would die by the hundreds of thousands. Destroying the Asurans completely was the only way to ensure that they stopped destroying human planets.

Also, not all Asurans were destroyed. The rebels were off-world when the Asuran homeworld was destroyed.

As far as i remember the Tollan had a democratic government, and the people elect the governments, do they not.

Yes. However, based on Tollan law and their culture, it was inconceivable to them that the Curia would do anything like they did. It was also inconceivable to them that the Curia would hide anything from them.

And the tollan people were very much aware of Earth, and like you said, only one member of the government was against their plan to destroy Earth, a population of billions.

And the rest didn't see that there was any choice. I just don't think that an entire planet should be held responsible because a handful of their leaders did something bad, in desperation, without ever telling them about it.


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How coincidentally odd:



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[pbutter]

<offtopic>



</offtopic>

Ok, what is that ?
I don't understand..

[Jeffala]

Ok, what is that ?
I don't understand..

I just think it's funny (a mix of funny "haha" and funny "odd") that we joined in the same month and have the same location listed.

By the way, I edited my post to respond to yours.

[pbutter]

You want to know our opinions. Why not provide yours first?
Ok, it was not my intent to insult, or put you down or anything, but this is how it all starts and everything goes downhill from there, so i dont want this to get personal.
And as for my opinion, i say, they got what they deserved, not helping defend Earth against the Goauld is one thing, but trying to destroy Earth a civilization of billions to save their own worthless asses, shows exactly the kind of people that they were.


The Asurans had no civilians. And while there was a "rebel" faction, it was also true that as long as the Asurans were around, humans would die by the hundreds of thousands. Destroying the Asurans completely was the only way to ensure that they stopped destroying human planets.
How do we know the Asurans had no civilians ?
In the episode, i saw a lot of people walking around not doing anything, i assumed they were civilians.

Also, not all Asurans were destroyed. The rebels were off-world when the Asuran homeworld was destroyed.
And we had no knowledge of that, it was not our intent to not destroy the rebel faction.


Yes. However, based on Tollan law and their culture, it was inconceivable to them that the Curia would do anything like they did. It was also inconceivable to them that the Curia would hide anything from them.
But you see, that is the thing, they were (the curia) responsible for their people, and they were the leaders of their world, and spoke for their entire race.



And the rest didn't see that there was any choice. I just don't think that an entire planet should be held responsible because a handful of their leaders did something bad, in desperation, without ever telling them about it.
They probably only numbered in the thousands, trust me, advanced alien civilizations in SGU are always in the thousands.

<offtopic>

How coincidentally odd:



I just think it's funny (a mix of funny "haha" and funny "odd") that we joined in the same month and have the same location listed.
</offtopic>

Oh, i see. Although, you have three times as many posts then mine.
Where does it say the location ?
Yours is Ortus Mallum.
But mine is blank...

[Jeffala]

The Asurans were designed, from the start, to be weapons. Their entire society, was driven by the directive to destroy the Wraith.

They only stood down from their attacks when their programming was tampered with by the Wraith. When that was undone, they returned to their attacks against the Wraith but this time, they waged the war by proxy. Instead of attacking the Wraith directly*, they attacked their food supply.

Also, consider that when the Asurans weren't in "attack mode" they were still extremely dangerous. They wanted to destroy Atlantis and the entire expedition for the simple fact that they were human.

If there was a concern for destroying the rebel faction when the attack on Asuras was launched, it was most likely overrode by the danger that the humans faced and the prevailing belief among the human leadership that, "they're just machines". Even Rodney believed the same, that FRAN was just a machine and her desires, wants, feelings, and aspirations didn't matter.


*Yes, they attacked the Wraith directly for a time, but eventually moved to attacking the food supply in lieu of the Wraith.



RepliVeggie and I joined in the same month and listed the same location.

[s09119]

Let's pretend the IOA sold a piece of very powerful technology to the Goa'uld in order to appease them; would you then demand all of Earth be put into slavery for the actions of a few leaders? We elected the leaders who appointed the IOA members, did we not?

[pbutter]

You are missing the point, the Tolland didn't just transfer technology to the Goauld, they actually tried to send a bomb directly to Earth. I seriously doubt, even the IOA would stoop that level.

[s09119]

You are missing the point, the Tolland didn't just transfer technology to the Goauld, they actually tried to send a bomb directly to Earth. I seriously doubt, even the IOA would stoop that level.

You honestly believe the IOA would let Earth be destroyed if they had a way to get out...? Seriously, have you seen their sense of morality?

[pbutter]

Yes, i have. And i dont think they would destroy another defenseless planet to save Earth.
They aren't good, but they are not that bad either. They would not commit genocide, and other's on Earth would not let them.

[Jeffala]

I'm not sure that they would really stop at anything as long as their goals were met after watching AoT.

AoT spoiler:

Spoiler:

I mean, after re-creating the Replicators and then hoping that they don't find a way around the programmed "killswitch". Come on.

[Myles]

Yes, i have. And i dont think they would destroy another defenseless planet to save Earth.
They aren't good, but they are not that bad either. They would not commit genocide, and other's on Earth would not let them.

The IOA sent a 'representative' to the Ori Galaxy for one reason,

Spoiler:

to re-release the replicators.

And for what? Because they thought it was for the good of the Earth and MW Galaxy. I think it's only logical to agree that do that is a horrible, and very evil idea. However, they thought it was for the better good.

So my concluding point - stop making this a black and white issue. 99.999% of the Tollan people had no idea what was going on. The one person who did thought it was the only way to save her people. People do desperate things in desperate times, and that doesn't exonerate them, however, they're not pure evil either. And the people who had no clue these weapons were being built in no way deserve punishment for it. That's like saying all of Earth deserves punishment because of what the NID did to the Jaffa people, that is commit genocide with symbeite(sp?) poisoning.