Ultimate MW Replicator ?

[SoulReaver]

how about head-grabbers - could these be used to come up with a new type of weapon to which the spiders can't adapt ? (a weapon operating on a completely different principle from the ARW/Dakara)

I mean if those repositories are supposed to contain the "knowledge of the universe" then surely it must contain more than one way of effectively fighting the spiders......

[Orii]

yeah but there's lots of superfluous code along with the basic prime directive (replication/mateship). the thing is it's unlikely we can apply the laws of (organic) evolution to machines, especially since there's always a random factor in organic evolution (that's where survival of the fittest steps in) which won't be found in something as "square" as a machine : each spider is the same (think perfect clones). if it ain't broke don't fix it. since the relatively simple code of the spiders has always availed them so far there's little reason to believe its complexity will evolve with each generation. the only thing that would change would be their collective memory (knowledge of the technology they've assimilated) making them ever stronger. furthermore don't forget the spiders' incredible adaptive capabilities : if a *new* portion of code did render them vulnerable and if someone did exploit it against a number of them, the rest would likely adjust their code accordingly. humans don't have such resilience

None of that disputes the fact that for a species of machines capable of operating at a high level of technological and cooperative sophistication, the code would be enormously complex. Look at the operating system of MS Windows... how many exploitable holes are there? And while it is true that an OS must allow for some things that are not needed in controlling a sentient life, it still compares in comparison as far as complexity is concerned. And you talk about "adapting their code" quickly as if that is a trivial task... the code that allows an organism to act in an intelligent manner is going to be a hugely complicated neural net, or at the very least a mind boggling heuristic framework, either of which means that each portion of code is very dependent on all of the code around it. You can't just "patch" holes without breaking functionality (hell, even MS has that problem with a tiny little OS)... it usually takes time and effort to rewrite code that gets around the exploit and is still functional. If we targeted code that was very low level in their operating schema, then "adapting" would be essentially the same as rewriting a new code for a new intelligent species on the fly. You're assuming that is easy, and I'm not sure if it is even possible.

Besides, even if their coding was encoded in an utterly uncrackable and unaccessible way (to us), there is still the fact that they have to transmit information (encrypted or not) from one block to another in order to communicate and function (just as our cells do). You can't make that transmission invincible! You can shield it (susceptible to high enough energy attack), encrypt it (still susceptible to mass interference and disruption), use hyperspace (we've seen evidence of being able to block and/or manipulate transmissions even in that imaginary world), etc. but it is always open to some technological attack or exploit. You assume that both their coding is inpenetrable and that their building blocks are impervious to all physical attack - I think both are wrong, but the latter certainly is.

btw. if the spiders were that susceptible to tinkering then the asgards (expert computer technicians by intergalactic standards :-) would've successfully exploited this line of defense a long time ago

I thought you were talking about "real" replicators? Using plot holes (well, not technically, but "technological errors in a show") to make you point doesn't seem very convincing to me. The fact is that the replicators in SG world shouln't have been such a big problem for the Asgaurd.

[wise one]

who knows the replicators could still be alive since they would of worked out the gate system and all possible gate addresses 8th and 9th chevron uses, they have the power(i think) to gate to another galaxy


if the replicators only purpose was to repliacte and learn then it would spread like a cancer to other galaxies and just keep replicating galaxies

[SoulReaver]

None of that disputes the fact that for a species of machines capable of operating at a high level of technological and cooperative sophistication, the code would be enormously complex. Look at the operating system of MS Windows... how many exploitable holes are there? And while it is true that an OS must allow for some things that are not needed in controlling a sentient life, it still compares in comparison as far as complexity is concerned. And you talk about "adapting their code" quickly as if that is a trivial task... the code that allows an organism to act in an intelligent manner is going to be a hugely complicated neural net, or at the very least a mind boggling heuristic framework, either of which means that each portion of code is very dependent on all of the code around it. You can't just "patch" holes without breaking functionality (hell, even MS has that problem with a tiny little OS)... it usually takes time and effort to rewrite code that gets around the exploit and is still functional. If we targeted code that was very low level in their operating schema, then "adapting" would be essentially the same as rewriting a new code for a new intelligent species on the fly. You're assuming that is easy, and I'm not sure if it is even possible.

for the code dependency part - not necessarily. that's why modular programming came about, to break up (very) complex code into more manageable, independent units & thus facilitate debugging
also, Reese must have been a bit smarter than the average Microsoft developer imo (^_^)
the spider collective was also a helluva lot more efficient & reactive than a team of terran developers stuck with primitive vocal communication. couple this with an "OS" that must have been of infinitely better quality than an MS product to start with, and you'll see why tinkering with these bugs may be easier said than done

nb. for all we know they use Unix :/

Besides, even if their coding was encoded in an utterly uncrackable and unaccessible way (to us), there is still the fact that they have to transmit information (encrypted or not) from one block to another in order to communicate and function (just as our cells do). You can't make that transmission invincible! You can shield it (susceptible to high enough energy attack), encrypt it (still susceptible to mass interference and disruption), use hyperspace (we've seen evidence of being able to block and/or manipulate transmissions even in that imaginary world), etc. but it is always open to some technological attack or exploit. You assume that both their coding is inpenetrable and that their building blocks are impervious to all physical attack - I think both are wrong, but the latter certainly is.

apparently you're assuming such communication is of EM (electromagnetic) nature, in which case such communication can be intercepted, disrupted, scrambled, you name it. for one thing we don't know if FTL communication can be so easily intercepted. also, quantum-type communication (a type of FTL com) can't be intercepted (because it follows no path, it's instantaneous - intercepting it wouldn't make sense. at least that's what our terran physicists say). for all we know what the spiders use to communicate within their collective can't be cut off. or perhaps it can, but they could also adapt by modifying their built-in com tech

I mean the ARW also works by disrupting communication (within the spiders), yet once Replicarter downloaded the specs of that weapon, the spiders made themselves immune to it. no reason to believe they couldn't adapt their collective network too...

I thought you were talking about "real" replicators? Using plot holes (well, not technically, but "technological errors in a show") to make you point doesn't seem very convincing to me. The fact is that the replicators in SG world shouln't have been such a big problem for the Asgaurd.

um why "plot holes" ? seriously, plot holes seem to be the latest trend nowadays... while are are plenty of plotholes & inconsistencies in the series, this certainly ain't one of them. the IDA replicators were clearly shown to be more advanced than the asgard, Thor himself said they were smarter. no "plot hole" here. all the more so than the spiders also assimilated asgard tech, so whatever the asgard know, the spiders know too

[SoulReaver]

heck I could bring up "plot holes" too : I mean if the ancient repository contains the knowledge of the universe (that's a lot -) then why didn't ONeil or someone else simply use another one of those head-grabbers to find a new method of fighting the replicators, back in s8 (Reckoning) ? surely a database as vast as that of the ancients should contains many different ways of killing the spiders, not just the ARW......
and for another plot hole, it's surprising the spiders didn't evolve personal shields to stop bullets. they should've been impervious to these

[SoulReaver]

btw would FRAN have been effective against the MW replicators ? (spiders & humanoids alike)

[The Prophet]

Find out where and when they originated from, travel back in time and prevent their creation, thus changing the timeline and eliminating them from existence.

Whadda I win?

[Orii]

for the code dependency part - not necessarily. that's why modular programming came about, to break up (very) complex code into more manageable, independent units & thus facilitate debugging

That works at one level, but to create the code for a sentient being you're not going to be able to completely isolate chunks of code. They may be independent subprocesses but eventually, at some level, they will all interact and share information. And the rules that govern those interactions will be hideously complex... probably more complex than any given subprocess, and will not be a candidate for further modularity.

the spider collective was also a helluva lot more efficient & reactive than a team of terran developers stuck with primitive vocal communication. couple this with an "OS" that must have been of infinitely better quality than an MS product to start with, and you'll see why tinkering with these bugs may be easier said than done

Evolution over millions of years has given us one example of the code required for this level of organism complexity... us. And our code, while pretty well encrypted and unacessible, is also very fragile (on a gross level, i.e. small manipulations of the code everywhere at once is devastating; on another level, gross manipulations on a localized level shows us that we also have a high degree of reslilence... thus killing one replicator block is pretty useless, just as killing a few of our neurons is pretty useless).

for one thing we don't know if FTL communication can be so easily intercepted.

Various shows/series at various times have offered that subspace signals can be blocked, jammed, etc. If we're talking in the realm of the imaginary here, where we can dream up subspace dimensions, I don't see why we can't also dream up that they are susceptible to physical manipulation just as everything else in the universe is. My point isn't the form of communication, but simply the fact that they [b]must communicate[/i]. That is an inherent weakness... one which I don't see any way to completely protect.

also, quantum-type communication (a type of FTL com) can't be intercepted (because it follows no path, it's instantaneous - intercepting it wouldn't make sense. at least that's what our terran physicists say).

Not sure what you are talking about specifically. Quantum encryption is the only thing I can recall being based in the real world, and that isn't a form of FTL communication. And while it is unbreakable encryption, you can certainly stop the transmission from reaching its destination completely.

for all we know what the spiders use to communicate within their collective can't be cut off. or perhaps it can, but they could also adapt by modifying their built-in com tech

We could also imagine that the Wraith develop a super impenetrable shield that nothing in the universe can penetrate, not the Ori or Anciencts, no weapons, nothing. Thus they would be the most powerful enemy ever! But thankfully the writers don't go quite that far into the realm of fanwank. We can imagine anything we want, but if we're talking about things that have at least some level of consistency and believability, even in sci-fi land, then that seems a stretch.

About the "plot hole"... that's why I offered the clarification. It isn't a plot hole in the strict sense, just one of those many technical snafus that are hard to reconcile with logic, even in dreamland, that show up in sci-fi shows. The replicators would certainly be a formidable enemy, but I don't see any reason why exploiting their weakness should have been such a challenge for a race as advanced as the Asguard.

[SoulReaver]

That works at one level, but to create the code for a sentient being you're not going to be able to completely isolate chunks of code. They may be independent subprocesses but eventually, at some level, they will all interact and share information. And the rules that govern those interactions will be hideously complex... probably more complex than any given subprocess, and will not be a candidate for further modularity.
Evolution over millions of years has given us one example of the code required for this level of organism complexity... us. And our code, while pretty well encrypted and unacessible, is also very fragile (on a gross level, i.e. small manipulations of the code everywhere at once is devastating; on another level, gross manipulations on a localized level shows us that we also have a high degree of reslilence... thus killing one replicator block is pretty useless, just as killing a few of our neurons is pretty useless).

but manipulation (if possible) presupposes that you can gain access to the code in the 1st place it's not like you can just access their code from anywhere with a laptop, wifi-style. that didn't even work against the asurans (they could switch on or off already existent portions of code like "don't attack lanteans", "attack wraith" etc. but they couldn't alter the base code itself

That is an inherent weakness... one which I don't see any way to completely protect.

I agree it's an intrinsical weakness. but there's also no reason to believe they cannot adapt to whatever would be used to compromise their network. for all we know the asgards tried that line of thinking too & ultimately failed (and only succeeded in making the replicator collective stronger). just like the ARW exploited another very similar weakness (the need for individual blocks to communicate) with only limited success

Not sure what you are talking about specifically. Quantum encryption is the only thing I can recall being based in the real world, and that isn't a form of FTL communication. And while it is unbreakable encryption, you can certainly stop the transmission from reaching its destination completely.

encryption has to do with "entanglement" or something, right ?
but it was mentioned communication that would be instantaneous using "unorthodox" methods (based on quantum physics). in fact that was as early as back in the late 90s. of course that was & apparently still is all theoretical, unfortunately (FTL is still scifi)
unless they meant quantum encryption, but as you said that's not FTL

We could also imagine that the Wraith develop a super impenetrable shield that nothing in the universe can penetrate, not the Ori or Anciencts, no weapons, nothing. Thus they would be the most powerful enemy ever! But thankfully the writers don't go quite that far into the realm of fanwank. We can imagine anything we want, but if we're talking about things that have at least some level of consistency and believability, even in sci-fi land, then that seems a stretch.

meh, we'll just content with SG-land for the moment :|

About the "plot hole"... that's why I offered the clarification. It isn't a plot hole in the strict sense, just one of those many technical snafus that are hard to reconcile with logic, even in dreamland, that show up in sci-fi shows. The replicators would certainly be a formidable enemy, but I don't see any reason why exploiting their weakness should have been such a challenge for a race as advanced as the Asguard.

oh well I disagree then...I didn't find that to be a stretch at all...the spiders may need to communicate amongst themselves, but if you look at the entire collective as a single organism (which is what it is), that would make one devilishly smart & incredibly adaptive organism, and if individual spiders can adjust to various situations, there's no reason to believe the collective could not adapt to larger-scale threats too (attempting to screw up inter-spider communication would be the equivalent of an ARW applied to the entire collective instead of a single spider)
basically, perhaps it can be exploited, but for all we know the collective could also adapt. all the more so than attacking the collective "bond" 1) would have to target the entire collective. that's some pretty large-scale op and 2) wouldn't destroy the spiders themselves, merely turn them into individuals. each one dangerous in its own right, and capable of going into hiding & spawning off its own fresh collective (copies of itself) etc.

[SoulReaver]

Find out where and when they originated from, travel back in time and prevent their creation, thus changing the timeline and eliminating them from existence.

Whadda I win?

a bit draconian but that could work. then again they too could go even further back in time & prevent SG from ever existing


btw. here's a cookie ^_^

[Orii]

but manipulation (if possible) presupposes that you can gain access to the code in the 1st place it's not like you can just access their code from anywhere with a laptop, wifi-style.

Blocking or jamming can be considered a form of manipulation. You don't necessarily have to access the code in order to block its transmission.

encryption has to do with "entanglement" or something, right ?
but it was mentioned communication that would be instantaneous using "unorthodox" methods (based on quantum physics). in fact that was as early as back in the late 90s. of course that was & apparently still is all theoretical, unfortunately (FTL is still scifi)
unless they meant quantum encryption, but as you said that's not FTL

Entanglement is the basis of encryption (which is essentially the same as the "FTL" communication you mentioned, but that was hyped more in the mid-late 1990's and the evolution of that research has led us to using entanglement for encryption, not FTL communication). I believe there were some theoretical arguments to the idea that the communication was in fact FTL, but that's really besides the point... the carrier for the communication is real world particles moving at sub-light speeds (or, I believe, you can also use photons, but I'm not completely sure about that). Particles or photons - in either case it is no problem to block the communication. What is impossible is to intercept and decode the information without it being known that you have done so, and the idea is that as soon as the sender knows the stream is being intercepted, he stops sending it. Pretty failsafe for security, but wouldn't help the replicators in your "perfect transmission" requirement.

[SoulReaver]

Blocking or jamming can be considered a form of manipulation. You don't necessarily have to access the code in order to block its transmission.

mmmk and assuming blocking the com is possible (and sufficient), how exactly would they go about it ? (not the underlying tech, just the general idea - for example if the com-blocking device would work by staying on like a radar scrambler or if it would be a "one-shot" kinda thing like the ARWs, would it be a "portable" device like a handheld gun or a fixed "broadcasting" thing like Dakara, the scale on which it would operate, etc.)

[Orii]

mmmk, and assuming blocking the com is possible, how exactly would they go about it ? (not the underlying tech, just the general idea - for example if the com-blocking device would work by staying on like a radar scrambler or if it would be a "one-shot" kinda thing like the ARWs, would it be a "portable" device like a handheld gun or a fixed "broadcasting" thing like Dakara, the scale on which it would operate, etc.)

Depends on the mode of transmission. Are you asking me to create defenses for hypothetical means of communication in a hypothetical artificial life form? Erm, sure, here goes.

If it's EM, use a material that blocks that spectrum. Or examine the reception apparatus and target it with energy, slimy goo, whatever. Or examine the transmission apparatus and do the same. Or examine the frequency range and construct similar looking waveforms in the hopes of overwhelming the reception apparatus (jamming). Quantum encryption/entanglement is susceptible to all of those.

If it's "subspace" then use your imaginary technology to do much the same... if we can travel and communicate in subspace, then I'm sure we can at least use massive jamming techniques, maybe block the formation of windows to subspace locally, interfere with the ability for signals to exit subspace appropriately, interfere with the reception apparatus' ability to receive subspace signals (see above) or the transmitter to transmit (see above).

If it is "gravitational" that might be a little trickier since we still aren't sure about what gravitational waves are. But we could probably jam them by, I dunno, walking close by the replicator or something. Or throwing a baseball at it. Seriously, once again examine the spectrum and create an overwhelmingly strong similar signal hoping their reception and decryption isn't able to cope. Or examine how they produce the gravitational wave and target that (well, it wouldn't be by shaking black holes back and forth, so maybe some ludicrous manipulation of subspace or something... so use your magic "sci-fi" instruction book to target that).

The point being that it is illogical to assume that the replicators have access to a physical means of sending information that no other life in the universe would have access to. Access as defined by the ability to also create, receive, and manipulate signals of the same type, not necessarily the ability to explicitly intercept and decode and/or manipulate the data carried by that signal. If whatever the replicators are using to communicate you understand and could also use to communicate, then you know enough about its weaknesses to stop its transmission, block its transmission, interfere with its reception and decoding, block its reception, etc.


IMO, something like a "super shield" that nothing is capable of penetrating is at least consistent with an enemy with little weakness. Of course, other species should also be able to construct super shields, in which case the war becomes either a stalemate or a waiting game based on who has the power source of greatest longevity.

But replicators must communicate as part of their definition, and assuming that communication is impervious to attack is silly. In fact, it is their achilles' heel.

[SoulReaver]

But replicators must communicate as part of their definition, and assuming that communication is impervious to attack is silly. In fact, it is their achilles' heel.

as I said not impervious, but it could be so advanced that no race of inferior tech could tamper with it - like the goauld or even the asgards, apparently. the fact that individual blocks within a bot had to communicate between them was also an achilles' heel of a similar kind (communication but this time within the individual), and look how hard it was to exploit it : it took an ancient database to come up with the 1st effective ARW, and although the spiders couldn't adapt outright as they had done before, they were still advanced enough to understand the tech when they saw its specs & become resistant to it

Depends on the mode of transmission. Are you asking me to create defenses for hypothetical means of communication in a hypothetical artificial life form?

I said not the underlying technology per se, just the general "form" of the weapon. though you also addressed this in a way, so let's see :

If it's EM, use a material that blocks that spectrum. Or examine the reception apparatus and target it with energy, slimy goo, whatever. Or examine the transmission apparatus and do the same.

so this would be a "directed" weapon that would target individual bots
in the case of an energy weapon (directed energy) it's back to square one : the weapon would target the bots themselves and damage them with energy by rendering them unable to communicate with others (without killing them), but there's no reason to believe the bots would not subsequently adapt, because we know they're kinda good at adapting to energy-based stuff as long as the race that built-it is less advanced (any race other than ancient, as far as we know)
in the case of "slimy goo" this would isolate every targeted bot again isolating it, but then the same problem as with bullets would arise : it would be effective against individual bots but inefficient as too slow, way too slow against a threat of that scale. and unlike bullets that effectively destroy the bots, the goo would merely isolate them, they'd still have to be destroyed subsequently (via any conventional means)
btw. to "examine the transmission apparatus" would mean capturing a live spider & studying it, and we know that this alone is risky & can horribly backfire ^^

Or examine the frequency range and construct similar looking waveforms in the hopes of overwhelming the reception apparatus (jamming). Quantum encryption/entanglement is susceptible to all of those.
If it's "subspace" then use your imaginary technology to do much the same... if we can travel and communicate in subspace, then I'm sure we can at least use massive jamming techniques, maybe block the formation of windows to subspace locally, interfere with the ability for signals to exit subspace appropriately, interfere with the reception apparatus' ability to receive subspace signals (see above) or the transmitter to transmit (see above).
If it is "gravitational" that might be a little trickier since we still aren't sure about what gravitational waves are. But we could probably jam them by, I dunno, walking close by the replicator or something. Or throwing a baseball at it. Seriously, once again examine the spectrum and create an overwhelmingly strong similar signal hoping their reception and decryption isn't able to cope. Or examine how they produce the gravitational wave and target that (well, it wouldn't be by shaking black holes back and forth, so maybe some ludicrous manipulation of subspace or something... so use your magic "sci-fi" instruction book to target that).

it could work, but any of these methods implies a device that would 1) have to remain active for it to work and 2) cover the entire galaxy, because a locally acting device would not suffice (too risky, those bots unaffected by the jamming signal may find a workaround)
now #2 might be feasible with several such devices (that would be one heck of a large-scale op though, cause there's plenty of space out there :-) but #1 would pose a big problem : the fact that the device must remain on would be one serious vulnerability as all the bots would have to do is destroy it. sure they might be unable to communicate in its vicinity while it's active, but each of them could still be able to pinpoint the source of the jamming signal & home in on it
in the end, maybe it's the best hope since it targets the com signals and not the "reception apparatus" itself (ie. the bots themselves) but but the outcome is still very uncertain

The point being that it is illogical to assume that the replicators have access to a physical means of sending information that no other life in the universe would have access to. Access as defined by the ability to also create, receive, and manipulate signals of the same type, not necessarily the ability to explicitly intercept and decode and/or manipulate the data carried by that signal. If whatever the replicators are using to communicate you understand and could also use to communicate, then you know enough about its weaknesses to stop its transmission, block its transmission, interfere with its reception and decoding, block its reception, etc.

yeah but that was not the point - the point was that effectively blocking the coms is, well, easier said than done – if not in terms of technology (manifestly the spiders used a form of communication that even the asgards couldn't fully understand) at least in terms of practicality. it's more effective than targeting the individuals (since it hinders the collective's ability to adapt) but it's also far less easy to carry out as for one thing it would have to be carried out on an inordinately large scale
plus it would likely require ancient-based tech (the only one more advanced than the MW replicators), and the tauri can't even reverse-engineer goa'uld tech let alone ancient stuff…they don't have a "holo-ancient" to guide them around the ancient database either (like holo-thor with the asgard core). so 10 to 1 they would have to stumble across another new piece of alterran tech, or at least another head-grabber

IMO, something like a "super shield" that nothing is capable of penetrating is at least consistent with an enemy with little weakness. Of course, other species should also be able to construct super shields, in which case the war becomes either a stalemate or a waiting game based on who has the power source of greatest longevity.

well then we might as well relegate the super-shield theory to the "realm of fanwank" as you called it :/

[Orii]

as I said not impervious, but it could be so advanced that no race of inferior tech could tamper with it

Then why not have a species whose cells and the communication among them was also impervious to tampering? That's what you're suggesting... a life form which can sit there and laugh at you while you hit it with any and every conceivable weapon or countermeasure. It's just silly... much as the replicators in the show became.

in the case of "slimy goo" this would isolate every targeted bot again isolating it, but then the same problem as with bullets would arise : it would be effective against individual bots but inefficient as too slow...

"Slimy goo" is metaphorical for anything that can interfere with either the transmission or reception apparatus. That could be energy, a chemical, nanites, bacteria, sound, whatever.

btw. to "examine the transmission apparatus" would mean capturing a live spider & studying it, and we know that this alone is risky & can horribly backfire ^^

A single dead block should work fine.

it could work, but any of these methods implies a device that would 1) have to remain active for it to work and 2) cover the entire galaxy, because a locally acting device would not suffice (too risky, those bots unaffected by the jamming signal may find a workaround)

I just don't understand these illogical leaps of faith you make. You can't just "work around" everything without changing what you are entirely. If the bots have found some difficult to tamper with form of communication, and we figure out how to tamper with it, they aren't going to be able to just look on their list of "100 top ways of communicating no other species in the universe has figured out" to "adapt." You can't "work around" the laws of physics. So there's no reason for a defense to be "universally applicable." Any weapon against the replicators need only be as effective as weapons against any other threat in the universe - destructive or inhibitive wherever that threat encroaches on others. If they sit and sulk on some backwoods planet, who cares. They can "adapt" all they want, but the laws of physics won't change.

(manifestly the spiders used a form of communication that even the asgards couldn't fully understand)

Which IMO is the silly part. Sure, it made for a great enemy in the show, and like many other parts of sci-fi I'm happy to temporarily suspend my knowledge of the real world to enjoy the show, but I see no reason to take it any further and start dreaming about some invincible enemy borne out of a fantasy creation. They wouldn't be so invulnerable as depicted in the show, let alone to the degree you speculate about in this thread.

In fact, the original premise of your thread seemed to be that they could be made less vulnerable by making them simpler... stripping away all unnecessary code and just leaving "replicate" functions intact. But now the way you explain their invulnerability to any attack is an unheralded level of technological and intellectual sophistication. So which is it? Vastly annoying simple creatures that are easy enough to kill in principle, but tough to eradicate in practice (much like any modern biological pathogen), or an extremely sophisticated artificial lifeform that can compete at the highest levels technologically and use that knowledge to protect itself, but is ultimately susceptible to the same physical laws and thus weaknesses that plague any highly complex sentient being?