The Tau'ri and Genocide

[ciannwn]

Avoiding dreaded character limit again.

This is where it gets sticky. Are we talking about what people here argue or what has been shown on the show?

I'm talking about what people in these forums argue. As yet, posters in this topic haven't come to agreement as to what the word 'genocide' should mean when applied to the Wraith.

My point is that all of that is speculation. We don't KNOW what's going to happen. I personally think (as long as we're delving into speculation) that the writers have some secret that they have yet to reveal about the Wraith that will make our current attitudes obsolete and much more 'humane' in everyone's eyes. That's called a plot twist. You know, where you are led to believe things are one way, and they surprise you by bringing up something unexpected. IMO that's good writing. However, while in mid-story, you can't see the forest for the trees.

As a Wraith fan I'm hoping for some kind of plot twist on these lines. Not exterminating the Wraith isn't likely to please every viewer, though, if the following post in this topic is anything to go by.

Besides, even if it is possible for the Wraith to be changed so as to eat regular food or if it's possible to feed them with artifical life force, it still begs the question of whether the Wraith deserve to survive. After all, they terrorized and butchered Humans by the millions throughout 10 000 years. Sure, they had no choice, but Humans are not to blame for the Wraith's dietary needs either. And also, it has been shown that Wraith enjoy sadistically hunting down and torturing Humans they can't cull. So why should the Wraith survive? The Human species has every right to exterminate the Wraith in retaliation for all the teror, pain, heartache and loss of Human lives they caused for so long. So yes, I am in favor of genocide in the case of the Wraith.

TPTB are unlikely to come up with an answer which will please 100% of the viewers and it would be unrealistic to expect them to. Posts presenting similar views to the above could lead to lively discussions on whether or not the Wraith should still be executed in revenge or because they're really criminals or whatever.

Going back to your first paragraph.

I WOULD agree that SGA was genocidal toward the replicators, but who cares? They're machines.

Another poster in this topic is a bit bothered by it.

Its always bothered me about Stargate how the writers seem to belittle artificial life forms as nothing but mindless machines and that its ok to wipe them all out. The Asurans for example were a trully alive in the sense that they could think outside of their own programing, had the same emotions as humans and had the ability for self sacrifice, in the case of Fran. You could even say their programming to kill the Wraith was a base instinct built into them the same way human beings have a built in instinct for violence among other things.

The writers could have come up with a different solution if it had suited them although it wouldn't have been as 'exciting' or 'spectacular' as what did happen. Maybe this route was essential for later stories. I'll be disappointed, though, if it wasn't and was only adopted to provide 'excitement' and 'spectacle'.

[BloomGate]

Avoiding dreaded character limit again.

I'm talking about what people in these forums argue. As yet, posters in this topic haven't come to agreement as to what the word 'genocide' should mean when applied to the Wraith.

LOL! Posters in this topic haven't come to agreement about what the word 'genocide' should mean when applied to anything.

As a Wraith fan I'm hoping for some kind of plot twist on these lines. Not exterminating the Wraith isn't likely to please every viewer, though, if the following post in this topic is anything to go by.

TPTB are unlikely to come up with an answer which will please 100% of the viewers and it would be unrealistic to expect them to. Posts presenting similar views to the above could lead to lively discussions on whether or not the Wraith should still be executed in revenge or because they're really criminals or whatever.

I'll quote Abraham Lincoln "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

BTW - Did SG1 get 'genocidal' on the Goa'uld? I don't believe they did. They finally beat them in battle and took away their powerbase, but the lack of rooting them all out tells me that the effort just wasn't there.

As for the Replicators, I think anyone that gets upset about them getting wiped out is probably a Star Trek TNG Data fan carrying that empathy forward. I can't see the replicators being self-conscious enough to even get so far as 'I think therefore I am' because they are too busy following their base programming to stop and think about it. But that's an argument for another time and another thread.

[jnadreth]

Lets have a vote on whether a replicator rights act should be created??????

Really the Taur'i versus the Old replicators = This is not war, this is pest control

[ciannwn]

LOL! Posters in this topic haven't come to agreement about what the word 'genocide' should mean when applied to anything.

That's very true.

I'll quote Abraham Lincoln "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

He hadn't come across science fiction fans, though. If he had he probably wouldn't have included the bit about pleasing all of the people some of the time.

BTW - Did SG1 get 'genocidal' on the Goa'uld? I don't believe they did. They finally beat them in battle and took away their powerbase, but the lack of rooting them all out tells me that the effort just wasn't there.

We know there were still Goa'uld around during the time of 'Critical Mass' (SGA Season 2.) It's unlikely that they were all working for The Trust if the following from 'Avalon Part 1' is anything to go by.

VALA:The Jaffa may have won their freedom, but there's still more than a few Goa'uld out there. Most of them have lost their dynasties, though, and they're either on the run or in hiding.

DANIEL: Yeah, no doubt plotting some means of regaining their power.

VALA: Yes, and in the meantime, they are having a lot of trouble maintaining the lifestyle to which they've grown so accustomed over the last 5,000 years or so. As such, there are a number of rather interesting artifacts currently on the market.

Goa'uld have tortured, killed and enslaved humans for generations. They also take humans as hosts and this is another form of torture which lasts for an extended lifetime from a human point of view.

CALDWELL: ... The host to a Goa'uld parasite is aware of what's happening to them. I won't soon forget what I was forced to do.

If Wraith are seen as deserving extermination because of "all the teror, pain, heartache and loss of Human lives they caused for so long" as NoobTau'ri puts it, what about the Goa'uld? Or is taking a human host less cruel than eating a human? If I had to choose between the two I'd rather be eaten by a Wraith. Even though it's an unpleasant death I'd find it preferable to being forced to commit atrocities for hundreds of years. (Or however long a host can be kept alive.)

As for the Replicators, I think anyone that gets upset about them getting wiped out is probably a Star Trek TNG Data fan carrying that empathy forward.

Data and the Holographic Doctor were a refreshing change from the usual Frankenstein type plot involving A.I.s whether they're androids, robots or super-computers. Lore was an android villain but he was also the 'evil brother' so at least he combined two clichés.

I can't see the replicators being self-conscious enough to even get so far as 'I think therefore I am' because they are too busy following their base programming to stop and think about it. But that's an argument for another time and another thread.

The Replicators and Asurans are included in the opening post of this topic so they're meant to be considered as well when looking at possible genocide. According to 'Progeny' the Asurans appear to be self aware because they knew what drove them.

NIAM: The aggression programmed into our core remained, fuelling a rage we could not contain. We implored them to have this violent nature removed from our programming, but the Ancients wanted a weapon, and since their scientists included a directive prohibiting us from ever harming them, they continued the experiment. When the Ancients concluded that the experiment had gone too far -- that we would never become the weapon they desired to create -- they decided to end it.

Some Asurans had ambitions.

WEIR: You want to ascend.

NIAM: Yes. Many among us, like Oberoth, have no desire to experience this. They are content with our present state. (He looks round at his colleagues.) But there are a few of us who recognise that as a civilisation, we are stagnant.

ASURAN FEMALE 1: We seek to continue our own evolution.

ASURAN FEMALE 2: To truly emulate the Ancients and their ultimate achievement.

And -

NIAM: They are our creators, and ascension is the final step to equalling them, to becoming one with them.

The Asurans aren't the only ones who wanted to follow the Ancients by ascending. The humans in 'Epiphany' had the same ambitions.

Then we get a bit of metaphysics.

SHEPPARD: No offence, but ... how are a bunch of machines gonna do that?

ASURAN FEMALE 1: Are you so different?

SHEPPARD: Well, we’re living, breathing people.

ASURAN FEMALE 2: Constructed from cells, consuming and burning energy, governed by electrical impulses ...

The conversation could have gone on to draw a comparison between Asuran base code and Nature's programming in the form of human instincts but it didn't.

We then learn that Niam's group want to rewrite their base code to remove the aggression but the Ancients put measures in place to stop the Asurans from doing this.

We've already had Replicators who were dirty rotten things who got exterminated.

Spoiler:

The writers could have taken a route where Todd and Rodney figured out how to remove the aggression so the Asurans stopped their activities. They went for the spectacular space battle, special effects and big explosion instead. This is OK up to a point but I'll be very disappointed if the surviving Asurans turn out to be dirty rotten things who end up exterminated too. I'd like to see them helped to remove the aggression and, if it's impossible for them to ascend (because TPTB say so), go on to develop their potential as sentient beings in other ways. Why? Because it would be a different ending to the one we got in SG1.

[BloomGate]

He hadn't come across science fiction fans, though. If he had he probably wouldn't have included the bit about pleasing all of the people some of the time.

Indeed!

We know there were still Goa'uld around during the time of 'Critical Mass' (SGA Season 2.) It's unlikely that they were all working for The Trust if the following from 'Avalon Part 1' is anything to go by.

......

If Wraith are seen as deserving extermination because of "all the teror, pain, heartache and loss of Human lives they caused for so long" as NoobTau'ri puts it, what about the Goa'uld? Or is taking a human host less cruel than eating a human? If I had to choose between the two I'd rather be eaten by a Wraith. Even though it's an unpleasant death I'd find it preferable to being forced to commit atrocities for hundreds of years. (Or however long a host can be kept alive.)

Exactly. That completely supports my belief that the writers will find a way not to kill them off after the Ultimate victory is achieved. It's precedent.

The Replicators and Asurans are included in the opening post of this topic so they're meant to be considered as well when looking at possible genocide. According to 'Progeny' the Asurans appear to be self aware because they knew what drove them.

Very true. I'd forgotten about what is 4 pages back. Ok, and so we have 2 factions. The ones we are at war with, and the ones that we aren't because they want to change. If you look at the attack on the Replicator home world as simply a military attack then the "no genocide' things gets easier. Perhaps we knew that the dissenters were off world before we attacked. (Yeah I know FA2, it's speculation)

Spoiler:

Was it Repliweir or the Clonedweir we saw recently?

This 'genocide' thing could be wriggled out of yet by the writers.

[Mister Oragahn]

They don't explore any of the alternatives or show any of the other sides the Wraith (having already shown to be very humanlike) must have. They only show the space monster side of the Wraith and they refuse to explore any solution for dealing with them other than nukes and gas in massive quantities, regardless of how potentially useful or likely those other solutions might be.

Basically it feels rigged. Rigged to force the only outcome to be genocide.

Yes, I think that summary explains it all.
All that they have explored thus far is more ways to kill the Wraith:

• Internal war. Although they didn't trigger it on purpose, having Wraith kill Wraith is a good plan.
  
  
• Poisoning the well (making human food sour and deadly to Wraith), which for some reason, was found by our super smart Beckett with a Ph.D in xenogenetics, within about a month at best, just out of his magic hat, but it would also kill its share of humans. Oh buggers.
  
  
• Retrovirus, which eliminates the memories of a Wraith, and turns them into humans, temporarily, making them dependant of the serum even more than the Free Jaffa are because of tretonin. At least the Jaffa keep their memories, and don't kill humans when they don't have their dose. They just die. Which I suppose is what the terrans would go by if they could, since there's no cool balded Wraith ally to speak of.
  They even had fun making it airbone, to use it in vents, and they engineered and spectated Wraith cannibalism upon a newly created human who had no idea what happened, woke up and got killed coldly, in front of all the staff.
  That alone would be worth a dark Caravaggio painting, with some cryptic message written below, to demonstrate the monstruosity and concessions the human conquista-- explorers were ready to reach in order to be the best. Godspeed. (and what the f-uck is God speed? Faster than light??)
  
  
• Better weapons to beam into and fire at Wraith ships, bases and nurseries.
  
  
• Stupidly activate the Asura-- sorry, Replicators... to kill all the Wraith. The most stupid writing I ever saw. It's just a pity that a super genius, a mega diplomatic leader with super nanites and a Mensa buffoon couldn't add 1 and 1 and see that the first thing the Asurans would do, as robots who made no secret about their hatred for humanity, is kill humans to kill the Wraith. We had written this centuries ago before they'd ever come with that plot in the next season. It was so phony... predictable. Jesus.
  
  
• Finding allies to kill Wraith. (Dumb genetic branch of) Lantians, Genii (neutered and then erased by plot), Travellers (will disappear after Sheppard bangs the hot chick in leather).
  
  

[tjmitchem]

Yes, I think that summary explains it all.
All that they have explored thus far is more ways to kill the Wraith:

• Internal war. Although they didn't trigger it on purpose, having Wraith kill Wraith is a good plan.
  
  
• Poisoning the well, which for some reason, was found by our super smart Beckett with a Ph.D in xenogenetics, within about a month at best, just out of his magic hat, but it would also kill its share of humans. Oh buggers.
  
  
• Retrovirus, which eliminates the memories of a Wraith, and turns them into humans, temporarily, making them dependant of the serum even more than the Free Jaffa are because of tretonin. At least the Jaffa keep their memories, and don't kill humans when they don't have their dose. They just die. Which I suppose is what the terrans would go by if they could, since there's no cool balded Wraith ally to speak of.
  They even had fun making it airbone, to use it in vents, and they engineered and spectated Wraith cannibalism upon a newly created human who had no idea what happened, woke up and got killed coldly, in front of all the staff.
  That alone would be worth a dark Caravaggio painting, with some cryptic message written below, to demonstrate the monstruosity and concessions the human conquista-- explorers were ready to reach in order to be the best. Godspeed. (and what the f-uck is God speed? Faster than light??)
  
  
• Better weapons to beam into and fire at Wraith ships, bases and nurseries.
  
  
• Stupidly activate the Asura-- sorry, Replicators... to kill all the Wraith. The most stupid writing I ever saw. It's just a pity that a super genius, a mega diplomatic leader with super nanites and a Mensa buffoon couldn't add 1 and 1 and see that the first thing the Asurans would do, as robots who made no secret about their hatred for humanity, is kill humans to kill the Wraith. We had written this centuries pages before they'd ever come with that plot in the next season. It was so phony... predictable. Jesus.
  
  
• Finding allies to kill Wraith. (Dumb genetic branch of) Lantians, Genii (neutered and then erased by plot), Travellers (will disappear after Sheppard bangs the hot chick in leather).
  
  

Does attempting to make humans immune to Wraith feeding count as attempted genocide against the Wraith?

[BloomGate]

Yes, I think that summary explains it all.
All that they have explored thus far is more ways to kill the Wraith:

It's also wrong. Sure, they developed different tactics for attacking their enemy in the war that they are currently engaged in, but none of them constitute genocide. You guys are confusing "violent attck during a war" with genocide.

• Internal war. Although they didn't trigger it on purpose, having Wraith kill Wraith is a good plan.

• Obviously not genocide.
  
  

• Poisoning the well, which for some reason, was found by our super smart Beckett with a Ph.D in xenogenetics, within about a month at best, just out of his magic hat, but it would also kill its share of humans. Oh buggers.