Angry at Weakness of Replictor Ships and tech plot holes (Spoilers for BAMSR)

[NoobTau'ri]

I think the Asgard have superior tech when it comes to war, from what we have seen the Asgard Unending weapons slaughtered the Asurans Aurora Class ships like they were nothing. Also the Asgard put their best tech on their ships and not just let their ships be cannon fodder

Oh my god, I have just explaiend this! Are you blind or unable to read? I jsut said that the Aurora's shield was not designed to resist shield-piercing beams. This does not mean that the Ancients didn't have shields able to resist shield-piercing weponry. For instance, Atlantis' shield can resist drones, the ultimate shield-piercing wepoanry. I wana see the Asgard top that.

Well thats stupid as it seems like when your backs against the wall and you still put second generation tech on your ships? Thats just plain stupid. The Ancients could have crushed the wraith if they wanted to. So if the Asgard fought the Ancients they would destroy them. The Asgard have focused on military tech for years while the Ancients focused on all forms of scince and not just focusing on military tech (which is stupid as they were in war)

It is a cost-effectiveness issue. Equiping all Auroras with city-ship shields would be too costly asnd there would be little added benefit to it. The Aurora shield could engage against several hives and survive. Equiping the Aurora with an Atlantis-type shield would only make sense if the ship were to face 50 or more hives alone. Since this would never happen, then it makes no sense to put such costly shields in the ships.

So you are admiting that the Ancients aren't that great?

I'm saying that the Ancients were vastly and overwhelmingly more advanced than everyone else, since their top technologies are far beyond what any other race is capable of, but that there are several areas of technology(like nanotechnology) where the Ancients never developed past a level a few centuries ahead of where we are today, probably because they never cared to.

[fugiman]

Oh my god, I have just explaiend this! Are you blind or unable to read? I jsut said that the Aurora's shield was not designed to resist shield-piercing beams. This does not mean that the Ancients didn't have shields able to resist shield-piercing weponry. For instance, Atlantis' shield can resist drones, the ultimate shield-piercing wepoanry. I wana see the Asgard top that.

When has the Atlantis shields ever been shot at by Drones? Also drones aren't that great as they can be shot down as proven in BAMSR and they run out of ammo and you can only use so many at once

It is a cost-effectiveness issue. Equiping all Auroras with city-ship shields would be too costly asnd there would be little added benefit to it. The Aurora shield could engage against several hives and survive. Equiping the Aurora with an Atlantis-type shield would only make sense if the ship were to face 50 or more hives alone. Since this would never happen, then it makes no sense to put such costly shields in the ships.

So what you are saying is that when you are losing a war badly and you could give yourself a new edge to win you decide it costs to much? Wow then I have even less respect for the Ancients. Also why would it cost them anything according to you they have mastered everything so why not just use matter converter to make an unlimited amount of ships, shields, weapons, and everything else. Which Carter was able to do with the knowldge of the Asgard so unless the Asgard are more advanced then the Ancients you make no sense at all

I'm saying that the Ancients were vastly and overwhelmingly more advanced than everyone else, since their top technologies are far beyond what any other race is capable of, but that there are several areas of technology(like nanotechnology) where the Ancients never developed past a level a few centuries ahead of where we are today, probably because they never cared to.

Why would they never care too? According to you they know everything about everything so I guess not

[NoobTau'ri]

NP, and I agree with you other point of why the Ancients wouldn't put their best tech on the ships when they could see they were losing the war. Any idiot could see the endless onslaught of Hives was slowly killing them by attrition. If they employed the city-ship like shields on war ships they would lose few if any ships and actually stop retreating and maybe make some advances.

Except that they probably couldn't, since the energy requirements to power such uber-powerful shields is so ginormous that they could only afford to have them on city-ships. Imagine what it would be like to fuel with energy the equivalent to ten thousand Atlantis. This is probablyt he reason why they tried to make Project Arcturus work.

[fugiman]

Except that they probably couldn't, since the energy requirements to power such uber-powerful shields is so ginormous that they could only afford to have them on city-ships. Imagine what it would be like to fuel with energy the equivalent to ten thousand Atlantis. This is probablyt he reason why they tried to make Project Arcturus work.

But accordimg to you they can do anything and everything so why can't they have super ships with atlantis shields and ZPMs? unless they haven't reached full level of tech possible (which IMO is impposible)

[NoobTau'ri]

When has the Atlantis shields ever been shot at by Drones? Also drones aren't that great as they can be shot down as proven in BAMSR and they run out of ammo and you can only use so many at once

Drones are the ultimate shield-piercers. This is canon. Drones perfurated Anubis' shields that were built with ascended knowledge, the same shields that the Tollan's ion cannons couldn't pierce. In an alternate universe, drones fended off Ori battlecruisers.

So what you are saying is that when you are losing a war badly and you could give yourself a new edge to win you decide it costs to much? Wow then I have even less respect for the Ancients. Also why would it cost them anything according to you they have mastered everything so why not just use matter converter to make an unlimited amount of ships, shields, weapons, and everything else. Which Carter was able to do with the knowldge of the Asgard so unless the Asgard are more advanced then the Ancients you make no sense at all

I guess the reason is the same for why the Ancients just didn't built a Dakara-like device and exterminated the Wraith at once: because the writers needed them to lose to the Wraith so that there would be a SGA show. If the Ancients were shown as invincible, then how would they be defeated by the Wraith?

Why would they never care too? According to you they know everything about everything so I guess not

they would never care to because just because you have the knowledge to do something doesen't mean that you will do it. For instance, the U.S could have all of it's energy supplied by nuclear plants, but most of it is still supplied by coal.

[fugiman]

Drones are the ultimate shield-piercers. This is canon. Drones perfurated Anubis' shields that were built with ascended knowledge, the same shields that the Tollan's ion cannons couldn't pierce. In an alternate universe, drones fended off Ori battlecruisers.

We don't know if the drones only made the Ori Ship go away or if it actually destroyed it. Also you can't stop the beam of a Asgared Plasma Weapon but you can stop Drones by shooting them down so they do have a draw back as well they can run out of ammo so they're not that great at all IMO

I guess the reason is the same for why the Ancients just didn't built a Dakara-like device and exterminated the Wraith at once: because the writers needed them to lose to the Wraith so that there would be a SGA show. If the Ancients were shown as invincible, then how would they be defeated by the Wraith?

Well I don't think you can use the Dakara weapon to kill a specfic Biological group. Now I think it can wipe out all life if it wanted to but that would kill humans off as well. But I agree that the writers had to make the Ancients look weak in one way

they would never care to because just because you have the knowledge to do something doesen't mean that you will do it. For instance, the U.S could have all of it's energy supplied by nuclear plants, but most of it is still supplied by coal.

So lets just say the Ancients had a machine that could make ships, weapons,shields and ZPMs instantly and then decide not to make it because building the old fashion way is just as good? When in fact its not. Also why not build the machine as they are getting their asses handed to them by the wraith and instead of buidling a machine that would let them win they dont't? Jeez you are bringing the ancinets down now not me.

Now your metaphor is bad because both do the same and and at the same time while having a machine that pumps put war materail as opposed to building the old fashioned way is different



Now I know you must be angry because my logic works better then yours but as you name says you are a noob so no hard feelings

[Vala_M]

I took a capture from the DVD instead of the web pic I found and the gate Chevron's are more reddish in colour...(think the web pic was just washed out)
Took another few captures which show the midway station gates with only 8 chevrons on both of them....Also, on the beauty pass at the beginning, you can clearly see the glyph designs on both the front AND back of both gates. They're only meant to be on the 'front'......(third pic down shows the outside of the station with the pegasus style glyphs showing. Since the entrance to both gates is on the inside, they shouldn't be visible on the reverse side...looks like lazy CG model making...just copying the front and using it for the back.

The bottom pic is a poor capture from the first ep of this season. Historically the seventh chevron has ALWAYS gone at the top, since SG1 started. Because these new CG gates have only 8 chevrons, they seem to be putting 2 chevrons at the top, the same distance apart. This makes sense for the space gates....there is no up but inside the station???

On the part about the gates having the same front and back, yes, I've noticed that and they've done that for a while. Very irritating.

On the second part, I agree, it's probably a mistake. But also, with eight chevrons, you could arrange the same way "visibly" as a 9 chevron gate by placing one at the top, one at the bottom and 3 on each side if this is actually stated in an episode to be accurate and not a mistake so gates actually could have only eight chevrons. But I doubt that.

Vala,

[NoobTau'ri]

We don't know if the drones only made the Ori Ship go away or if it actually destroyed it. Also you can't stop the beam of a Asgared Plasma Weapon but you can stop Drones by shooting them down so they do have a draw back as well they can run out of ammo so they're not that great at all IMO

The drones are seen in " Progeny" piercing through the Asurans' city-ship shield and destroying the buildings inside. I want to see the Asgard beam do that!

So what that you can shoot the drone down? There are tons of them and most of them will hit the shield. Think of it this way: what would you prefer: a beam that can't be shot down but has 50% odds of going through the shileds or drones, which can be shot down, but have an 100% chance of going though the shields and lots of them will hit the shiled even if lots are shot down due to the sheer number of them? I'll take the drones.

Well I don't think you can use the Dakara weapon to kill a specfic Biological group. Now I think it can wipe out all life if it wanted to but that would kill humans off as well. But I agree that the writers had to make the Ancients look weak in one way

This is incorrect. the Dakara can be calibrated to kill specific species. Look at when it was used on the priors, and how the replicators feared the Dakara weapon.

So lets just say the Ancients had a machine that could make ships, weapons,shields and ZPMs instantly and then decide not to make it because building the old fashion way is just as good? When in fact its not. Also why not build the machine as they are getting their asses handed to them by the wraith and instead of buidling a machine that would let them win they dont't? Jeez you are bringing the ancinets down now not me.

Again, this is a necessary plot-hole. The writers could not possibly allow the Ancients make an infinite number of ships and ZPMs because they would be invincible and then the Wraith wouild never have won and there would be no Stargate Atlantis.

Now your metaphor is bad because both do the same and and at the same time while having a machine that pumps put war materail as opposed to building the old fashioned way is different

Huh?

Now I know you must be angry because my logic works better then yours but as you name says you are a noob so no hard feelings

Your logic is {Mod Snip} easily rebutted. In fact, the time it takes from the time you post to the time I reply is only about a few minutes, which is the time I take to type the answer. I can easily reply anything you write. And my username is sarcastic, because I'm actually a master of everyting Stargate, which you are not.

[fugiman]

The drones are seen in " Progeny" piercing through the Asurans' city-ship shield and destroying the buildings inside. I want to see the Asgard beam do that!

When did that happen I don't remember drones being used in that episode if I remember correctly the ciry was destroyed with an overload of the ZPMs not drones so unless I missed something

So what that you can shoot the drone down? There are tons of them and most of them will hit the shield. Think of it this way: what would you prefer: a beam that can't be shot down but has 50% odds of going through the shileds or drones, which can be shot down, but have an 100% chance of going though the shields and lots of them will hit the shiled even if lots are shot down due to the sheer number of them? I'll take the drones.

First you must make the drones to fire so you can't have thousands if you don't make them so I would have the Energy weapon as it doesn't run out of ammo. Also does that wink many you wouldn't take the drones because I take that as I'm kidding wink so thanks for agreeing

This is incorrect. the Dakara can be calibrated to kill specific species. Look at when it was used on the priors, and how the replicators feared the Dakara weapon.

Yep Humans, it killed humans and jaffa so you can't program it for one species unless you are saying the Jaffa and Humans are the same exact thing and nothing about them is different, so you can program it to kill all biological things but not just the Asgard or Wraith but all

Again, this is a necessary plot-hole. The writers could not possibly allow the Ancients make an infinite number of ships and ZPMs because they would be invincible and then the Wraith wouild never have won and there would be no Stargate Atlantis.

But its canon so how can you argue with it if the show says so. You can't deal with it. I know you must be angry at me and the writers but guess what the Ancinets aren't that great. If its in the show its canon and just because you say its a plot hole doesn't mean its not canon

Your logic is None of that pleaseand easily rebutted. In fact, the time it takes from the time you post to the time I reply is only about a few minutes, which is the time I take to type the answer. I can easily reply anything you write. And my username is sarcastic, because I'm actually a master of everyting Stargate, which you are not.

Ah that proves you are right and I am wrong, name calling the last desperate action of someone who is losing in an intellectual conversation Also my reply only takes seconds if you haven't noticed in several threads that I have stacked up responses where you are slow

{Mod Snip}

[garhkal]

Maybe the 8 chevron gates can only be dialed from certain DHDs. I always wondered what stopped people who had access to gates from dialing a space gate and walking into space.

Oh that is an interesting thought.. So far all the 8 chevron gates we have seen were in space... maybe that was done as a safety feature.

So what you are saying is that when you are losing a war badly and you could give yourself a new edge to win you decide it costs to much?p

ets say i have a new widgit that costs 900 bucks to make/buy, or i can get 4 of the normal widgits for the same price... THE NEW ONE is as good as 3 regular widgits.. which would you rather?

[fugiman]

ets say i have a new widgit that costs 900 bucks to make/buy, or i can get 4 of the normal widgits for the same price... THE NEW ONE is as good as 3 regular widgits.. which would you rather?

However there is a difference the normal Aurora shields suck while the Atlantis shiled is one of the most amazing tech we have seen in stargate so its not like 3 more like 20 of the normal ones

Thats my point when you are losing a war and what you have isn't working then you make a better weapon

Look at first M16 rifle it was a horrible weapon now flash forward to now we have the M16A4 a great rifle and why the changes because the old one was bad. So lets see the Ancinets had the Aurora shields and the Atlantis Shields. Now which one do you want on your fleet? The one that is bad or the one that is amazing?


Also since when was money an issue to the Ancinets they were losing a war at that point I don't think they really think they cared about money but more about having a ship that could fight a win

[asmir47]

Oh that is an interesting thought.. So far all the 8 chevron gates we have seen were in space... maybe that was done as a safety feature.

I thought that about the space gates at first. Maybe they were all 8 chevrons and something special had to be done with the dialling DHD to get to it, so that no random villager could dial a gate then walk through to his doom!
But all the space gates for the first two years of the show had the full 9 chevrons dispelling that theory....this is from '38 minutes'



Also, If you watch the latest episode again, I've noticed that there aren't any glowing ancient support/stabilisation 'thrusters' on the space gate like this pic from 38 Minutes....Surely if a gate turned on in space without those thruster pods, the kawoosh would send it spinning and hurtling through space....



tsk tsk CGI dept.....

[Mister Oragahn]

lets watch spoils of war first. i think that the asurans were killed too quickly, but as weir's faction survived and wanted the destruction,i sense sabotage. and if we wanted a realistic fight and everything cleared up, it wouldve taken more than an hour of show, showing us cutting through aurora shields slowly, then us slowly gaining, the core room shield being destroyed, mckay beaming down, uploading it, taking a load of time to get all asurans in one place, then coming with a way to finally defeat them, yada yada yada. so instead, the asurans were powered down, and we won easily. it was the shortest way.

The problem is that sabotage or not, anyone on the heroes' side would have said something about how the Asurans were weak and holding back.

I suppose that's again superior writing to mask the OMGZ reveletation planned for the next phase.
See, that's why it's hard to keep credibility afloat in that show. Anyone with a minimum of knowledge about enemy ships, would have made a comment about those Asuran ships. And this would have been, of course, worth ten seconds of screen time.

[ijffdrie]

i have the perfect theorie

the asurans retreated to build more warships, to build warships you need workers, so they ringed most of the crew to the surface and started building new ships, when the coalition came they had to raisetheir shields stopping all incoming transports. than they took a long time to get someone from the bridge to the chair room and the drones that were fired came from puddle jumpers

[NoobTau'ri]

When did that happen I don't remember drones being used in that episode if I remember correctly the city was destroyed with an overload of the ZPMs not drones so unless I missed something

Wehn Niam is explaining to Weir the history of the Asurans and how the Lantians chose to drestroy them, a bunch of Auroras is shown flying around the Asurans's city-ship and shooting it with drones. You can clearly see the drones going through the shields and the buildings inside exploding.

First you must make the drones to fire so you can't have thousands if you don't make them so I would have the Energy weapon as it doesn't run out of ammo.

So what? It takes only one drone to pierce through the shield and each Aurora carries hundreds. 2 drones can take out a Ha'tak if it hits critical system. If it's a one-on-one fight, then the Aurora can shoot all of it's drones. It is impossible to shoot down all of them, and you know that they will perfurate the shield, no matter how powerful it is. The Asgard beam can perfurate the shield of a regular Aurora, but we don't know if it can perfurate the shield of an Aurora powered with a ZPM, so I give it to the Aurora.

Also does that wink many you wouldn't take the drones because I take that as I'm kidding wink so thanks for agreeing

Actualy, my wink is the expression of my calm satisfaction in proving you wrong.

Yep Humans, it killed humans and jaffa so you can't program it for one species unless you are saying the Jaffa and Humans are the same exact thing and nothing about them is different, so you can program it to kill all biological things but not just the Asgard or Wraith but all

Wrong. It can wipe out specific species with some adjustments. This is why Adria destroyed the Dakara weapon, to stop it from wiping out all priors.

But its canon so how can you argue with it if the show says so. You can't deal with it. I know you must be angry at me and the writers but guess what the Ancinets aren't that great. If its in the show its canon and just because you say its a plot hole doesn't mean its not canon

You know what's canon? That the Ancients are far more advanced than the Asgard. That's canon. It is you who is arguing with canon, not me. As for the Ancients not being that great, I disagree. They seeded Human lives on countless galaxies, created technology that awes other highly advanced species and then ultimately transcended our plain of existence altogether. I think they are pretty darn awesome.

And you think I would get upset over this? I have a brother with leukemia who looks like a Wraith just fed on him, and you think that this debate bothers me? You have to be really shallow to believe that I will get so upset over an internet discussion about who's better between two fictional races.

Ah that proves you are right and I am wrong, name calling the last desperate action of someone who is losing in an intellectual conversation Also my reply only takes seconds if you haven't noticed in several threads that I have stacked up responses where you are slow

You keep saying that I'm losing. I am losing just because you say so? Maybe you should get some of your board friends to post saying that I'm losing to you, because you have no credibility saying that I'm losing when you're the only one saying that.

And I'm losing what exactly? This is not mathematics where there is a clear cut solution for a problem and you can prove someone wrong without a shadow of a doubt. This is a subjective speculation based on what we believe would happen. The only absolutes we have are facts from canon, and that's it. One of the facts from canon is that the Asgard themselves regarded the Ancients as scientifically superior to themselves, and the Ancients are said in canon to be "the most advanced race that ever existed", so I guess that ends the discussion right there. As for who is militarilly stronger, there are no clear asnwer becasue there are way too many "ifs", "ands" and "buts". I believe that the Ancients are stronger because their most powerful shields and weapons are more powerful than the Asgard's, but the Asgard's most powerful ships apparently are more powerful than the most powerful Ancient ship we've seen so far, so neither me or you are right, as we're both speculating.