THre ain't no stealth in space

[Womble]

The point is that every time you maneuver, you also plot a predictable course for all to see.

Not really. Thrust the engines- turn them off- give it a wait- thrust again. If you move in an unpredictable three-dimensional zigzag with a varying velocity, it'll be pretty difficult to track you in real time. The main problem will be cooling down the engines quickly enough so that they wouldn't continuously glow on the enemy sensors.

That article makes some very valid points. Sure we can say "x" technology will be invented in the future to achieve stealth, but by today's standards, any ship is going to be very visible from a very long way.
Bending light around an object does nothing to contain the emissions generated from within. A ship generates heat, which must be radiated into space otherwise internal temperature will continually rise.

Unless this energy is redirected to an accumulator of some kind which will then be released to power the weapons or supplement the ship's main power source.

I still think, though, that the best stealth is achieved by active blinding of enemy sensors. Passive stealth is always a specialized stealth and can be beaten by changing the detection mode (the real-world example of which was the downing of an F117 in Serbia; it was tracked by an outdated electro-optical detection system rather than by a radar). Active countermeasures, on the other hand, will jam anything if done right (as was the case with the Israeli raid on Syria). They are, of course, themselves a form of detectible emission- but the sensors that can detect them are, in turn, jammable.

[Xzyl]

Not really. Thrust the engines- turn them off- give it a wait- thrust again. If you move in an unpredictable three-dimensional zigzag with a varying velocity, it'll be pretty difficult to track you in real time. The main problem will be cooling down the engines quickly enough so that they wouldn't continuously glow on the enemy sensors.

Yes really.

You can choose your direction randomly but you can not move randomly. To change your ships flight path you first have to rotate your ship into a new direction and in order to do that quickly you are going to have to burn your maneuvering thrusters. And if you want to move in a completely different direction you first need stop moving in the direction you are currently moving in. And to do that you need to turn your ship in the opposite direction, burn your main engines until they overcome the inertia of its last heading (at which point your ship will be standing still), then rotate to the new direction then start burning your main engines and build up speed again. There is also no reason the direction change can not be calculated in real time; unless, you are talking about signal delay from the speed of light. And if that is the case then your ship is going to be too far way to do anything threatening as well.

Unless this energy is redirected to an accumulator of some kind which will then be released to power the weapons or supplement the ship's main power source.

Although such systems exist they are no where near efficient enough (in addition to other limitations) to be used as a form of stealth technology nor are they every expected to be. Also it presumes that you have a direction with which to redirect you energy in which there are no hostile observers, something you can not remotely insure.

I still think, though, that the best stealth is achieved by active blinding of enemy sensors. Passive stealth is always a specialized stealth and can be beaten by changing the detection mode (the real-world example of which was the downing of an F117 in Serbia; it was tracked by an outdated electro-optical detection system rather than by a radar).

Its also an example of increadibly bad tactics. The F-117s had been flying the same path for several days in a row at the exact same time every (durring daytime no less). At this point it would not have mattered if the planes had been optically invisible.

Active countermeasures, on the other hand, will jam anything if done right (as was the case with the Israeli raid on Syria). They are, of course, themselves a form of detectible emission- but the sensors that can detect them are, in turn, jammable.

There are several currently in use missiles that have home on jam capability. The missile switches from trying to precisely read the radar reflection of the target to homing in on the source of the strongest signal.

[AvatarIII]

all this is true in the cases of reaction drives of some sort, but if manouvering were to be caused by distortions in the fabric of spacetime, you would need to beable to detect said distortions accurately to predict any manouvering

[Crazy Tom]

what about if u used mass drivers for engines. no heat signature.

[Emperor Tippy]

How are you generating the energy to power the mass driver?

[IcyNeko]

Heat signature isn't just "the combustion of heat eminating from the rear of the ship's engine nozzle". Any radiation of any sort counts as a heat signature, since that energy permeates the hull and can be traced as a trail.

Tippy's point is valid. Your mass drivers' energy source would leak a signature. Also, whatever fires the mass out of the mass driver would generate heat. Unless it was magnetically propelled, which would still require a build up of magnetic energy. Also, mass drivers are weapons. You're shooting mass around. You really shouldn't be using that as a means of propulsion. That's trashing up the universe. >

[Womble]

Yes really.

You can choose your direction randomly but you can not move randomly. To change your ships flight path you first have to rotate your ship into a new direction and in order to do that quickly you are going to have to burn your maneuvering thrusters. And if you want to move in a completely different direction you first need stop moving in the direction you are currently moving in. And to do that you need to turn your ship in the opposite direction, burn your main engines until they overcome the inertia of its last heading (at which point your ship will be standing still), then rotate to the new direction then start burning your main engines and build up speed again.

Hmm, when you put it like that...

There is also no reason the direction change can not be calculated in real time

That would require the capability to not only detect the engine exhaustm but to estimate the resulting speed and change of direction based on it fast enough. I suppose it's not impossible, but with present-day technology it's pretty tricky.

Although such systems exist they are no where near efficient enough (in addition to other limitations) to be used as a form of stealth technology nor are they every expected to be. Also it presumes that you have a direction with which to redirect you energy in which there are no hostile observers, something you can not remotely insure.

I said the energy would be stored, not redirected outwards, and later used as a supplemental power source for powering combat systems.

Its also an example of increadibly bad tactics. The F-117s had been flying the same path for several days in a row at the exact same time every (durring daytime no less). At this point it would not have mattered if the planes had been optically invisible.

Actually, it would. The missile still had to be given something to lock on to, and they weren't exactly shooting advanced LOAL stuff.

There are several currently in use missiles that have home on jam capability. The missile switches from trying to precisely read the radar reflection of the target to homing in on the source of the strongest signal.

I didn't mean old-fashioned radio interference, but rather about cyberwarfare, something like the US-made "Suter" system used by the Israelis in the Syria raid (an airborne network attack system that "hacks" into the enemy communications network and basically takes over as a system administrator; it can then feed the system false data or even turn the sensors away from the real target).

[First]

The interior of the ship will need to be warm enough for humans to live in. Much warmer than the outside environment. That means heat from inside will flow outwards through the hull, unless they've invented insulation that can stop 100% heat flow (unlikely). The outer hull temperature will be warmer than space, thus you will give off a heat signature.

Alternatively, if you are flying close to a sun, the radiation from the sun will heat up the ship, meaning you need to cool the interior. Thus your hull will be cooler than the surrounding area. Either way you will be a different temperature to your surrounding space, thus showing up on enemy sensors.

Except if you find the right distance from the sun such that your ship required neither cooling or heating. But then that severely limits where you can travel.

[IcyNeko]

The interior of the ship will need to be warm enough for humans to live in. Much warmer than the outside environment. That means heat from inside will flow outwards through the hull, unless they've invented insulation that can stop 100% heat flow (unlikely). The outer hull temperature will be warmer than space, thus you will give off a heat signature.

Alternatively, if you are flying close to a sun, the radiation from the sun will heat up the ship, meaning you need to cool the interior. Thus your hull will be cooler than the surrounding area. Either way you will be a different temperature to your surrounding space, thus showing up on enemy sensors.

Except if you find the right distance from the sun such that your ship required neither cooling or heating. But then that severely limits where you can travel.

Internal temperatures shouldn't radiate outwards like that. Space isn't full of air particles to be heated. If anything, the internal temperature has to keep since the hull itself would tend to cool the air. Unless you leak air out of a hole somewhere, space isn't really going to be affected by the internal thermal energy.

Again, it's going to be the reactor core that gives them away. Radiation DOES permeate hull.

[First]

Internal temperatures shouldn't radiate outwards like that. Space isn't full of air particles to be heated.

Partly true. There will be almost zero heat conducted and convected to space due to the lack of matter to transfer the heat to (although there are a very small number of particles out there, it's not 100% void). But yes it will be minimal.

However, the hull will be warm, by being in contact with the heated interior. How warm will depend on the insulation used. The warm hull will radiate heat. Similar to any other type of radiation although much less intense than say, the engines. It's the same physics as why a warm bodied person glows when viewed by a thermal imager, they are emitting more far-infrared radiation than their cooler surroundings. And this radiation, like any other radiation, will travel though a vacuum.

[IcyNeko]

Touche!

[Crazy Tom]

OK, so how DO we stealth soething in space?

[IcyNeko]

Low emissions, radio silence and suppressive energy field that can mask the ship's signature.

[AvatarIII]

also by pushing all emissions away from the person you are hiding from, and ultra-black hull plating

[IcyNeko]

Well.... the color wouldn't matter as long as your hull/shield absorbed light energy going to it. Images that we see, after all, are just bounced radiation.